Thoughts on an 'improved' cloud of knives

[Magnera]

So looking at the spell "cloud of knives" I noticed that one could do the spell with a silver dagger. At what level of spell do you think would be reasonable for me to change that into any type of dagger? Or change it into any dagger with any enhancements? What about the current weapon i'm holding?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fell Drain Spell from Libris Mortis plus Persistent Spell from Complete Divine. You're done.

[Magnera]

I was intending on building a new spell. Not quite a different combo... As effective as that would be, its not what I am after with this.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The dagger, silver or not, is a material component of the spell, which means it's consumed and destroyed when you cast it. If you use a +1 Dagger, you just spent 2,302 gp to cast that spell. Not worth it.

[GoatBoy]

Most of the power of Cloud of Knives come from the shenanigans it entails with metamagic feats. Just adding whatever enhancements from the dagger you're holding won't make the spell much more potent.

Setting it to a 3rd level spell feels suitable for the changes you mentioned.

[Magnera]

The dagger, silver or not, is a material component of the spell, which means it's consumed and destroyed when you cast it. If you use a +1 Dagger, you just spent 2,302 gp to cast that spell. Not worth it.

Yeah I was going to change that into a focus like what Whirling Blade uses. So via the character being a ghost and using necrotic focus weapon, I am going to use this spell to help spread my draining touch ability around. As much as I like fell stuff, its not what im going for with this build.

[Magnera]

Improved Cloud of Knives
Cleric3 Wizard3 Sorcerer3
V S F
Casting Time: 1 Standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 Round/level

You conjure a cloud of dozens of your focused weapon around you.
The weapons float in the air around your upper body, pointing in the direction you look.

Each round as a free action at the beginning of your turn, you can release one of these weapons at any target within 30 feet that you can see.
This is a ranged attack that uses an attack bonus equal to your caster level + your key spell casting ability modifier.
The weapon deals damage just as if you had swung it in melee, including any bonuses you might have from ability scores, or feats along with any enhancements or unique qualities the weapon has.
Damage reduction applies to all attacks from this spell. However the weapon over comes the damage reduction as if it was normally used against the creature. In addition the weapon, if not already, is treated as magical for damage reduction purposes.

Focus: Any melee weapon that you are proficient with.

I swear there are dozens of flaws with this spell and I cant find them

[Bakkan]

Well, technically you need to include a Focus entry at the bottom, but this looks good. I would consider using this. For a high-level caster, I would consider holdign on to a dozen or so different daggers with different properties to handle various situations (flaming daggers vs Ice Mephits, wounding daggers vs low-Con creatures, etc.)

One thing you need to specify is what happens if you use a weapon that has a certain number of uses of its special ability per day (such as Dispelling).

The way you have it currently, the daggers would take a penalty to damage if you happen to have a low Strength, even though you're not throwing them. This seems counterintuitive to me. I doubt it would be completely overpowered if the daggers added your magic ability modifier to damage, but just making them do base damage + enhancement bonus + effects would work too.

[Magnera]

I made an edit to it, where it is bold are parts I edited. I'm still working on the number of times per day kind of enchants though.

How about...

If the weapon has an ability useable in a per day or shorter duration then it may use this ability equal to the number of times it can be used normally through out the length of the spell. (example: A luck blade may use its once per day re-roll once during the spell but it cant use its ability to grant wishes.)

Multiple castings of this spell do not stack regarding the number of attacks one can make as a free action. However it does stack the duration of the spell and replenish the number of times an enchantment may be used.

If you cast a second(or third or fourth...) time with a different focus, then the spell overrides the previous spell in all ways, including the duration of the spell.

Greater Cloud of Knives
Cleric5 Wizard5 Sorcerer5
V S F
Casting Time: 1 Standard action
Range: Short
Duration: 1 Round/level
Will Negates (Harmless)
SR: No
You conjure a cloud of dozens of your focused weapon around the subject.
The weapons float in the air around their upper body, pointing in the direction they look.

Each round as a free action at the beginning of their turn, the subject can release one of these weapons at any target within 30 feet that they can see.
This is a ranged attack that uses an attack bonus equal to their(or your own) caster level + their(or your own) key spell casting ability modifier.
The weapon deals damage just as if they (or you,) had swung it in melee, including any bonuses they (or you) might have from ability scores, or feats along with any enhancements or unique qualities the weapon has.
Damage reduction applies to all attacks from this spell. However the weapon over comes the damage reduction as if it was normally used against the creature. In addition the weapon, if not already, is treated as magical for damage reduction purposes.

If the weapon has an ability useable in a per day or shorter duration then it may use this ability equal to the number of times it can be used normally throughout the length of the spell. (example: A luck blade may use its once per day re-roll once during the spell but it cant use its ability to grant wishes.)

Multiple castings of this spell do not stack regarding the number of attacks the subject can make as a free action. However it does stack the duration of the spell and will replenish the number of times an enchantment may be used.

If you cast a second(or third or fourth...) time with a different focus, then the spell overrides the previous spell in all ways, including the duration of the spell.

Focus: Any melee weapon that you are proficient with.

This one is kinda the same but its able to target other people now and it can use either your caster level and ability mod or theirs. your choice when you cast it.

[ojayaba]

i think that this spell should stay as a range of personal, making it so that you can do it for others seems to ruin the flavor of it :(

[Magnera]

i think that this spell should stay as a range of personal, making it so that you can do it for others seems to ruin the flavor of it :(

Aww, I'm sorry you feel that way. Now im all for doing just the third level of the spell but I'm wanting the playgrounds thoughts on both spells. Maybe some combos that one could pull. Or maybe some very unique cheese like using chain spell and make your self colossal via that one spell that I can't recal ATM. Thus getting everyone an extra 6d6 damage every turn as a free action. Or use a spell storing sword with a cure X wounds and then have everyone heal extra hp thanks to chain spell. Or empower the spell to improve the damage dealt. These are just a few examples of ways to use these spells.

[only1doug]

Biggest issue I can see is the standard launch bolt cheese, fixable by:

The conjoured weapons are sized in appropriately for the caster of this spell regardless of the size of the focus weapon.

[Magnera]

Launch bolt cheese? Is that the shrink item a ballista bolt into a crossbow bolt+ launch item for massive damage? I don't see how that will fit in here. I'll read into it and then edit my post

[rollforeigninit]

Are ye sure you want to make it as a melee attack? It might make more sense to make it simply a ranged attack and treat it as such. It'd clarify its interaction with Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot etc. Otherwise you have people using Power Attack (which only detracts from MELEE attack rolls) and getting bonus damage from the feat but since it's a ranged attack not taking any corresponding penalty.

I've kicked around the idea of a PrC that specializes in Weapon and Armor producing and altering spells. I'll probaby sneak your spells for it's use sometime. Love the flavor.

There is a Pathfinder spell ya might want to look at for ideas as well..... PLEASE DONT HATE!!!! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wreath-of-blades):smalleek:

[Cranthis]

Fairly late in this thread, but the material component is a knife. It doesn't have to be a dagger. It can be a cheap butter knife. Only the silvered dagger option requires a dagger of any kind.

[Magnera]

Are ye sure you want to make it as a melee attack? It might make more sense to make it simply a ranged attack and treat it as such. It'd clarify its interaction with Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot etc. Otherwise you have people using Power Attack (which only detracts from MELEE attack rolls) and getting bonus damage from the feat but since it's a ranged attack not taking any corresponding penalty.

I've kicked around the idea of a PrC that specializes in Weapon and Armor producing and altering spells. I'll probaby sneak your spells for it's use sometime. Love the flavor.

There is a Pathfinder spell ya might want to look at for ideas as well..... PLEASE DONT HATE!!!! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wreath-of-blades):smalleek:

It says Ranged Attack in the spell... Then again if it was to be treated as if it was done in melee then it could be a melee attack...

you dare to quote the most hated of all editions in here? in MY thread? how DARE you! -end sarcasm

Very unique spell actually, ill take it into consideration. Now note that the spell caster would have to know PA or have a separate fighter use their own caster level and key ability modifier. Its kinda intended to be like that as it is a 5th level spell.

I also lol'ed at the thought of having dozens of 60ft long great swords around a gnome!

[only1doug]

Launch bolt cheese? Is that the shrink item a ballista bolt into a crossbow bolt+ launch item for massive damage? I don't see how that will fit in here. I'll read into it and then edit my post

Yeah the old, I'll launch a Colossal ++ sized crossbow bolt...

With the wording on your spell (unlike the original version which did fixed damage) you are dealing damage as if weilding the weapon. If the caster were standing next to (or on top of) a Colossal ++ Greatsword he could claim that as the Focus for the spell (if he is proficient with greatswords) and deal silly amounts of damage.

[Magnera]

Yeah the old, I'll launch a Colossal ++ sized crossbow bolt...

With the wording on your spell (unlike the original version which did fixed damage) you are dealing damage as if weilding the weapon. If the caster were standing next to (or on top of) a Colossal ++ Greatsword he could claim that as the Focus for the spell (if he is proficient with greatswords) and deal silly amounts of damage.

Maybe it could be changed to grow with CL? Im uncertain about how I would calculate that. Any thoughts?

[only1doug]

Maybe it could be changed to grow with CL? Im uncertain about how I would calculate that. Any thoughts?

greater mighty wallop has a good mechanism for increasing weapon size with caster level, I'm not certain if this spell will need the damage boost or not.

[Magnera]

greater mighty wallop has a good mechanism for increasing weapon size with caster level, I'm not certain if this spell will need the damage boost or not.

Probably, I guess I'll have to use Only1doug's additional ruling of: The conjoured weapons are sized in appropriately for the caster of this spell regardless of the size of the focus weapon.