Is this a DM who needs to get hit or is their a way to win

[dantiesilva]

Playground I have a question for you, how does a level 12 spelltheif, a wizard who has no offense or battifield control, nor summon monster spells for that matter and a cleric that has had all his spells dispelled thus making him have no spells left for the day beat a level 15 dry lich optimized. A optimized Blighter, 3 salt mummies, and 3 sand golems. I am saying it is impossible but the group is saying otherwise. Please playground tell me if this is even possible. Oh and his the blighter has an undead dog thing of a druid of his level which is somewhere around 12-14.

[roguemetal]

Well, dry liches take damage from water, so my first thought would be to somehow drown it, but I also don't know what scenario you are working with. If the cleric has even 'create water' left, it will be useful to you. Other than that... no, no you don't stand a chance. Have your wizard get you out of there and fight another day. And pray you don't have your escape dispelled.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I won't say it's completely impossible, but that encounter (I'm assuming it's a battle in-progress and you called the session early) is very close to unwinnable.

I strongly advise an immediate tactical retreat to regroup. Get out of Dodge and come back at a time when you're better prepared for these foes.

If that's not possible a clear picture of what you -do- have available will allow us to advise you on a way that -might- allow you to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. An idea of the terrain the battle's taking place on could be helpful too.

[RFLS]

I won't say it's completely impossible, but that encounter (I'm assuming it's a battle in-progress and you called the session early) is very close to unwinnable.

I strongly advise an immediate tactical retreat to regroup. Get out of Dodge and come back at a time when you're better prepared for these foes.

If that's not possible a clear picture of what you -do- have available will allow us to advise you on a way that -might- allow you to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. An idea of the terrain the battle's taking place on could be helpful too.

Seconded. Although water summoning spells would be very helpful right now, no matter what.

[AlanBruce]

Greetings! I am the DM in question. The party is indeed fighting all the creatures the OP mentioned- except for the fact that the dry lich is now gone. It teleported away during round 1,leaving the blighter, skeletal companion, 3 salt mummies and 3 sand golems.

The mummies have a very low attack rate and are just a bunch of hp that can be whittled down.

The skeletal companion has a better attack bonus, but it can still be turned and quite possibly destroyed (the party wants to save 2 of the mummies from explosion by turning, and the area is big enough to catch the skeleton alone in the blast radius)

The sand golems are actually rather weak, compared to other golems. They have a decent attack, but their damage output isn't great. They also have no DR, unlike other constructs of its kind.

The blighter is, as of now, the only true caster they are facing. Given the long plot that lead to the battle, he will likely be more interested in doing something else than engaging the party.

The party has a 4th PC. A very strong drunken master who, although the player may not be present, can be used as an NPC to make an appearance and take down each creature in one round of full attacks.

Currently, the party mage has two of the mummies greased and on the floor, while one of the golems is shrouded in obscuring mist, which leaves out 3 opponents.

The spellthief has a ring of blinking, which gives him a considerable edge to hit and not get hit in return. He also has a wand of gravestrike in one of the daggers, allowing him to take down the undead without causing them to explode as per the Turn Undead fluff used in the campaign.

The OP has had spells dispelled, yes, but he still has a few very useful buffs that increase his damage output, speed, and number of attacks currently active.

[Morph Bark]

The party has a 4th PC. A very strong drunken master who, although the player may not be present, can be used as an NPC to make an appearance and take down each creature in one round of full attacks.

They're doomed.


More seriously though, the cleric should be turning left and right, and the wizard should have gotten some battlefield control and summoning spells. What does he focus on? Enchantment?

Keep in mind that 5% of all encounters, according to the DMG, should be very hard or nigh-unwinnable. You can't win 'em all, sometimes you've got to retreat.

However, since the lich has teleported away and half the minions are stumbling around uselessly or on the floor, the story changes. Have the drunken master engage the golems and sic the rest on the blighter, surrounding him. The cleric can do either that or get to turning, which he should've been doing from the start.

[prufock]

a wizard who has no offense or battifield control


Currently, the party mage has two of the mummies greased and on the floor, while one of the golems is shrouded in obscuring mist

We wuz lied to! :smallfurious:

Seriously though, it sounds like you aren't as bad off as it first seemed. The lich has scarpered (sure to be a recurring villain), the undead can all be turned, the golems can be greased to near uselessness, and the blighter is busy doing other stuff.

The blighter is actually your big threat, it seems. I'd have an invisible spellthief with Hunter's Eye or something sneak attack the heck out of him, with support from the cleric once the undead are no longer a threat.

[Killer Angel]

The scenario, as presented by the DM, is indeed winnable, and the spellthief with the ring and the wand can tilt the balance.


Greetings! I am the DM in question. The party is indeed fighting all the creatures the OP mentioned- except for the fact that the dry lich is now gone. It teleported away during round 1,leaving the blighter, skeletal companion, 3 salt mummies and 3 sand golems.

I wonder why...

[dantiesilva]

So while I was asleep it seems he made the drylich leave. As for the turning to destroy the undead, we can not. As both I and the DM said if we make them blow u then I can not bring them back to life. But its looking like tough from your standpoint. And though he has said we can use the monk as an NPC he has been missing in action around 5 days now and no one has heard from him. Never mind the fact that as far as anyone knows he did not follow us to the 300ft high circle of death we are in now. Now the blighter we are trying to save so killing him is also bad. Ok just took my turn and I think I killed 1 salt mummy and the dog thing. That leaves the blighter who is immune to my 31 diplomacy roll. 3 Sand golems, and the two mummies that I need to bring back to life once the spell thief puts their souls back in their bodies

[RFLS]

So while I was asleep it seems he made the drylich leave. As for the turning to destroy the undead, we can not. As both I and the DM said if we make them blow u then I can not bring them back to life. But its looking like tough from your standpoint. And though he has said we can use the monk as an NPC he has been missing in action around 5 days now and no one has heard from him. Never mind the fact that as far as anyone knows he did not follow us to the 300ft high circle of death we are in now. Now the blighter we are trying to save so killing him is also bad. Ok just took my turn and I think I killed 1 salt mummy and the dog thing. That leaves the blighter who is immune to my 31 diplomacy roll. 3 Sand golems, and the two mummies that I need to bring back to life once the spell thief puts their souls back in their bodies

Yeah, so, the DM told us what the fight is like. Unless he's lying through his teeth. I'm mildly inclined to believe that you've missed quite a bit of what's happened by sleeping, which is not the DM's fault. With your "31 Diplomacy roll," you seem to be misinterpreting the Diplomacy rules as a whole. Basically....chill out, dude. There's nothing to complain about, and there was absolutely no reason for the title of the thread.

[dantiesilva]

When this thread was posted, dude, the inclinations posted at the beginning were in effect. {Scrubbed} And the lich only left after this post came up and I was asleep, hmm go figure. Doesn't take much brains there. Well saying the person was neutral when the diplomacy was being used no. It would turn him helpful, not greater dispel magic on me. Definatly saying me and the said NPC have had history that is not violent, and actually quite helpful towards one another, meaning it should be at helpful to start of, but lets just say it was at neutral. Mind control possible. But saying it would be against his nature, and his very being to attack someone who is seeking out the goddess their would be a will save, and major negatives against the spell.

And so you think this
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=426264
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=453654
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=427778
+ 3 salt mummies CR8 each and 3 sand golems CR 12 each

Is an easy fight for
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=437705
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=436710
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=443096
sorcerer spells
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=444258

When we can not kill 2 of the salt mummies unless the DM allows a destroyed body to be able to be brought back to life with raise dead. And the blighter who is supposed to be on our side protecting the goddess from this lich. Who now is gone, but at time of this post was not. You are taking into consideration and putting to much weight in what the DM said and not the original facts that we the players were given which I gave to the playground and they even said it is close to impossible. Sand golems, immune to magic. makes cleric and mage useless, they are constructs meaning no sneak attack so ping them to death. Mummies and hyena sure kill them all with a greater turning now I fail my mission to bring two of them back to life, unless DM states otherwise. I already made one of the mummies go Boom and the hyena. The other two until we have proof that we can bring them back I can not. Lich (at the time) got by any attack thrown at him and well immune to fire damage basically. Meaning I go into melee and get desicated to death. Then there is balion, which is well yea....greater dispel. Keep in mind that not a single one of those creatures has any items on them on their sheets. Saying I made them and left the dm to equip them for another campaign.

Can we win the fight now that the monk is an NPC and we know that and the lich has left, yes. But before that was not the case until in my time normal people sleep, you know 2am and such. Which was not the time that this thread was started nor the original question. So please refrain from comments like that. Now with the newest update easily done. But before no it was not. and if you take a look at the sheets we were going up against and optimize the spells for each of the casters and give them the best things there money can buy at that level then guess what, my original statement still holds true.

[IdleMuse]

Situation aside, D&D is a game, no-one should get hit over it... And if you've never before been in a situation that seemed unwinnable, then I have to feel sorry for you; triumphing agaisnt the odds is a great roleplay experience, not something to worry about on the internet before you even know the outcome.

[Archmage1]

This is the spellthief:

The fight is entirely doable. I can take down the Druid(buffed sneak attack, dual wielding, and wraithstrike, so 5d6+12 damage per hit.)
We took down one of the villans, so I have a +5 armor, a +6 sword, and a +5 cloak of resistance, so, worse case, I can keep the golems occupied.
currently at ac 36(alter self is nice), and other than the druid, the rest will only hit on a 20, and I am blinking.

I suspect that we could even take the lich, with a bit of trickery, and with Alan not using optimal spells.

[RFLS]

When this thread was posted, dude, the inclinations posted at the beginning were in effect. So you saying chill out and all is in fact one of the stupidest things ever. And the lich only left after this post came up and I was asleep, hmm go figure. Doesn't take much brains there. Well saying the person was neutral when the diplomacy was being used no. It would turn him helpful, not greater dispel magic on me. Definatly saying me and the said NPC have had history that is not violent, and actually quite helpful towards one another, meaning it should be at helpful to start of, but lets just say it was at neutral. Mind control possible. But saying it would be against his nature, and his very being to attack someone who is seeking out the goddess their would be a will save, and major negatives against the spell.

Can we win the fight now that the monk is an NPC and we know that and the lich has left, yes. But before that was not the case until in my time normal people sleep, you know 2am and such. Which was not the time that this thread was started nor the original question. So please refrain from comments like that. Now with the newest update easily done. But before no it was not. and if you take a look at the sheets we were going up against and optimize the spells for each of the casters and give them the best things there money can buy at that level then guess what, my original statement still holds true.


Greetings! I am the DM in question. The party is indeed fighting all the creatures the OP mentioned- except for the fact that the dry lich is now gone. It teleported away during round 1,leaving the blighter, skeletal companion, 3 salt mummies and 3 sand golems.

The mummies have a very low attack rate and are just a bunch of hp that can be whittled down.

The skeletal companion has a better attack bonus, but it can still be turned and quite possibly destroyed (the party wants to save 2 of the mummies from explosion by turning, and the area is big enough to catch the skeleton alone in the blast radius)

The sand golems are actually rather weak, compared to other golems. They have a decent attack, but their damage output isn't great. They also have no DR, unlike other constructs of its kind.

The blighter is, as of now, the only true caster they are facing. Given the long plot that lead to the battle, he will likely be more interested in doing something else than engaging the party.

The party has a 4th PC. A very strong drunken master who, although the player may not be present, can be used as an NPC to make an appearance and take down each creature in one round of full attacks.

Currently, the party mage has two of the mummies greased and on the floor, while one of the golems is shrouded in obscuring mist, which leaves out 3 opponents.

The spellthief has a ring of blinking, which gives him a considerable edge to hit and not get hit in return. He also has a wand of gravestrike in one of the daggers, allowing him to take down the undead without causing them to explode as per the Turn Undead fluff used in the campaign.

The OP has had spells dispelled, yes, but he still has a few very useful buffs that increase his damage output, speed, and number of attacks currently active.


This is the spellthief:

The fight is entirely doable. I can take down the Druid(buffed sneak attack, dual wielding, and wraithstrike, so 5d6+12 damage per hit.)
We took down one of the villans, so I have a +5 armor, a +6 sword, and a +5 cloak of resistance, so, worse case, I can keep the golems occupied.
currently at ac 36(alter self is nice), and other than the druid, the rest will only hit on a 20, and I am blinking.

I suspect that we could even take the lich, with a bit of trickery, and with Alan not using optimal spells.

First off, a nit-pick which....no, actually, don't ignore this. From the SRD, we've got this gem about the Diplomacy skill:

Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a –10 penalty on the check.
So, if the blighter was indifferent, and you took the full round action, your roll of 31 is reduced to a 21. After that, it only needs to take a -7 modifier (heat of battle, conflict of interests, whatever) to make your roll irrelevant, assuming it was, in fact, indifferent (per the definition in the SRD).

Moving on. Your opponents don't look that optimized *coughblightercough,* whereas everyone in your group except perhaps the Ultimate Magus has done at least some moderate optimization. Your DM has outlined the situation for us; it doesn't look bad at all. It looks dangerous and plot driven, which, in my experience, is the best kind of situation. Your spellthief has chimed in and said that he thinks that even the situation you initially outlined would be doable. Basically, I'm saying I think your complaint was preemptive and that the original post was misleading or misinformed, and that talking about hitting your DM was entirely uncalled for.

[dantiesilva]

Tarith 10d6 touch attack vs you. 1d20+12 against touch AC.+1d6 con damage...he gains 7 health. if he hits all but me is dead in one hit. takes me 2

[ThiagoMartell]

Situation aside, D&D is a game, no-one should get hit over it... And if you've never before been in a situation that seemed unwinnable, then I have to feel sorry for you; triumphing agaisnt the odds is a great roleplay experience, not something to worry about on the internet before you even know the outcome.

This, so much this. IdleMuse wins the thread.
If you just want to win all the time, play 4e instead.

[Archmage1]

where is he getting 10d6. Stops scaling at 5d6, don't forget the blink. Again, Dantie, this is entirely doable.

[Lapak]

The thread-title question is a crazy-bold false dichotomy, too. The answer to "we're facing an unwinnable fight!" is not "the DM should be hit." Not every fight needs to be winnable. Not every victory involves beating the other guy into the ground. Sometimes denying the other guy what he wants is victory. Sometimes simple survival is victory. Sometimes avoiding the fight entirely is victory!

And 'The DM needs to be hit' is not, in fact, the answer to any game situation.

[Deadline]

To be honest dantiesilva, it just sounds like you were (and possibly still are) angry, and threw this post out. You didn't include the important information on why you won't turn the undead (which would make the fight considerably easier). You seem upset that your buffs were dispelled, you seem to feel betrayed by the actions of the Blighter, and you claim that you and your allies can do nothing to contribute.

As a counter point, we see that your allies can indeed contribute (grease is great for locking down brutes), and you have the capability to do so as well, but are choosing not to (I'm unfamiliar with whatever mods your GM is using regarding greater turning, but couldn't you simply use regular turning to cause the undead to flee so you can engage your foes in bite-sized chunks?) So, with that added information, it does sound like even if the lich were still present you could have a tough but winnable fight on your hands.

The tone of your posts has come across as overly confrontational, and we've got posts from both your DM and a fellow player which are calm, reasoned, and rational. That is why you've got people suggesting that you chill out.

[dantiesilva]

Used all but 5, now 4, greater turnings on DMM persists. So yea...can not make them run only make them go boom.

[ThiagoMartell]

Used all but 5, now 4, greater turnings on DMM persists. So yea...can not make them run only make them go boom.

Every strategy has it's weak points, you just found out one in DMM Persist.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This fight is definitely winnable. It's gonna be one hell of a row, but it could go either way.

Point of order though; raise dead can't revive those salt mummies anyway. You've got to use at least ressurection to revive a former or currently undead creature. Turn-pop them and be done with them, then find someone that can cast true-res after the fact. It'll cost some serious gp, but so will having to revive dead party members.

[AlanBruce]

The scenario, as presented by the DM, is indeed winnable, and the spellthief with the ring and the wand can tilt the balance.



I wonder why...
You, sir, have been reading my campaign log :smallsmile:! You know why he would not want to stay for the finale.

[Morbis Meh]

This fight is indeed winnable, with proper strategy and a few good decisions, if your luck turns sour you can always run away. There is no need to get angry or beligerant towards the DM, from what i can tell he is doing a good job and you're only aggravating him and your fellow party mates. Keep up the good work Alan, if the party dynamics would have been better I would have stayed in the game.

Now tonight I have to prepare for an actual unwinnable dnd session for halloween.... it shall be glorious and my killer gnome shall go down in a blaze of shadowy glory muahahahaha!

[Occasional Sage]

This situation clearly calls for a sun giant.

[ThiagoMartell]

This situation clearly calls for a sun giant.

So it did become a forum meme after all.
Don't forget to homebrew your own progression!

[animewatcha]

Does this DM allow for called shots? And do your guys have 'ranged ammunition' of any sort?

[Archmage1]

Sure. We have a fairly large stack of sourcebooks...

[danzibr]

Is this an online game? With character sheets online I'd think not, but j/w.

Anyway, knowing the title, I find it hilarious that the DM popped into this thread (and that the wrong their/there/they're/thurr is in the title).

To be constructive... well, I don't think I have anything important to say, though I can say some things. Based off what the other people say, the DM definitely shouldn't be hit because the battle isn't unwinnable. Even if it were, the DM shouldn't be hit. Players thinking every battle should be winnable is... not right. D&D, in my opinion, is supposed to emulate like, real-life fantasy, so to speak. Should people be able to beat everything they come across? No. Sometimes you have to run. With no fear of a TPK there's no challenge (I mean like NO fear... like the DM would absolutely never throw something at you that could kill you).

Sometimes the DM might deserve to be hit, like fudging stuff that shouldn't be fudged, or just making crap up to have their way... but let's be saintly and not give grace, not justice.

[animewatcha]

Sure. We have a fairly large stack of sourcebooks...

Called shot to the legs to damage/reduce their mobility. Called shot to their arms to reduce their accuracy from weapons to touching ( assuming usage of arms for touch attacks ). If desperate enough ( and allowed ), called shot for the good ol' headslice.

[PrismCat21]

But before that was not the case until in my time normal people sleep, you know 2am and such.

So... just to be clear here. Are you claiming I am abnormal because I tend to go to bed after the sun comes up? :smallconfused:
It is now 2 a.m.

[prufock]

So... just to be clear here. Are you claiming I am abnormal because I tend to go to bed after the sun comes up? :smallconfused:
It is now 2 a.m.
Well yeah, humans are diurnal by default. Those who aren't are in a minority, usually due to working night shifts, pulling all-nighter studying sessions, partying, or dealing with insomnia.

Also, people seem to be taking umbrage with the "hit the DM" comment. "Player/DM needs a smack" or "throw the DMG at him" etc are common statements on the forum, and very very rarely meant to be taken literally. Chill out.

[Morph Bark]

As both I and the DM said if we make them blow u then I can not bring them back to life.

I see nothing of the sort in either of your posts. :smallconfused:

Why do they need to be brought back to life at all though? I think we're missing some vital context here.

[AlanBruce]

I see nothing of the sort in either of your posts. :smallconfused:

Why do they need to be brought back to life at all though? I think we're missing some vital context here.

Two of the salt mummies are former friends of one of the PCs. He has their souls trapped in a gem, which he stole many sessions ago. They believe they can return the souls to the bodies of the mummies, if these are slain (but not utterly destroyed). Hence the danger in turning them with greater turning and turning their bodies to dust.

[Eldest]

Two of the salt mummies are former friends of one of the PCs. He has their souls trapped in a gem, which he stole many sessions ago. They believe they can return the souls to the bodies of the mummies, if these are slain (but not utterly destroyed). Hence the danger in turning them with greater turning and turning their bodies to dust.

Can't they dust them, collect the dust, and then rez them? They don't even need all of the dust, just some of it.

[Occasional Sage]

Oh, there's IMPORTANT CONTEXT missing in Dante's post? I'm shocked, I'm even in disbelief, that this could be so.

Also, "blow u" is perhaps among the worst ways to mistype I can think of.

[Stabbald]

This thread comes across as...

"Baaawwwww! I can't effortlessly curbstomp everything in the game! Life is so unfair!"

[danzibr]

{Scrubbed}

[Killer Angel]

And so you think this
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=426264
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=453654
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=427778
+ 3 salt mummies CR8 each and 3 sand golems CR 12 each

Is an easy fight for
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=437705
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=436710
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=443096
sorcerer spells
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=444258
.

There's a whole world of difference, between "easy fight" and "unwinnable fight".
You presented the fight as unwinnable, but the encounter is doable. Wasn't this the point of your OP?


"Baaawwwww! I can't effortlessly curbstomp everything in the game! Life is so unfair!"

Should this be a constructive criticism? :smallannoyed:

[Stabbald]

Should this be a constructive criticism? :smallannoyed:

Oh, was I not polite enough to the person that suggested that his DM should be physically assaulted and then went on to insult other people in the thread? :smallannoyed:

[RFLS]

Oh, was I not polite enough to the person that suggested that his DM should be physically assaulted and then went on to insult other people in the thread? :smallannoyed:

I agree that he was a little out of line, but at this point, the best thing we can probably do is to stop commenting on his thread. I'd rather not go for a round 2.

[ShriekingDrake]

Leaving aside some of the stylistic harshness reflected in some of the posts . . . this appears to be a really fun and well-thought out adventure. The DM has clearly taken time to make the story compelling and the encounters interesting. This particular battle seems quite winnable to me, even if it's not a sure thing.

What's particularly interesting to me, here, is that we have several participants from a game having a meta discussion about the game with us. I know it didn't start this way, but we ended up having two players, the DM, and it looks like a former player in this group chime in. I think this is quite cool.

[2xMachina]

Given that the game appears to be online, it would be pretty damn hard to hit anyone.

[prufock]

Oh, was I not polite enough to the person that suggested that his DM should be physically assaulted and then went on to insult other people in the thread? :smallannoyed:


Also, people seem to be taking umbrage with the "hit the DM" comment. "Player/DM needs a smack" or "throw the DMG at him" etc are common statements on the forum, and very very rarely meant to be taken literally. Chill out.
Quoting myself because I'm cool like that.

[Killer Angel]

Oh, was I not polite enough to the person that suggested that his DM should be physically assaulted and then went on to insult other people in the thread? :smallannoyed:

As said, the whole "physical assault" is an hyperbole, often used around here, and for the rest... if someone feels insulted, there's a report button.

[doko239]

Whoops, wrong thread.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread locked for review.