Enchanted Clothing on a 20 Fighter

[Acidic]

Alright, so some friends and I are playing a one-shot level 20 game. I always play relatively powerful classes; the past 3 have been an Archivist, a Sorcerer, and a Factotum. This time I decided to mess with everyone and play a Human Fighter 20.

My character has 34 dex, so +12 mod. That pretty much means armor is right out. Although I think I found something interesting...

Magic Item Compendium (p.234) shows you can enchant the Arms and Body slot with an armor bonus, up to +8. This is similar to the Bracers of armor. So let's say I enchant some clothing with +8 armor bonus. Could I then have Magic Vestment, CL 20, cast on the clothing to give me a +5 enhancement bonus to it? Magic Vestment does specifically say it works on armor, shields, and non-magical clothing.

Also, any other advice on ways to boost AC? I have the following, assuming this is legitimate, for a total of 63 AC:

13 armor (Magic Vestment on +8 clothing)
12 dex
7 shield (+5 heavy shield)
5 from +5 defending shield spikes
5 natural armor (amulet of NA)
5 ring of protection
6 combat expertise at -2 attack (+1 trait, +1 tumble, +2 Bracers of Blocking)

[only1doug]

Yes, or you could get it enchanted with an armour bonus and an enhancement to armour bonus for the same effect. (subject to DM approval but RAW legal)

[docnessuno]

No.

You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.

As the spell states, you can cast Magic Vestment on a suit of armor or a shield. An outfit of regular clorhing is outlined as counting as an armor with +0 Ac bonus for the purpose of this spell.

Bracers are neither a suit of armor, a shield or regular clothing.
Enchanted clothing is definitly not regular clothing.

About boosting AC, monk or swordsage dip add Wis to AC, as well the Saint template and a couple other sources. The three outlined stack RAW, but many DMs rule it otherwise.
Other classes / PRCs / races / templates allow to add different stats to AC, as Con, Int or Cha (see: [3.x] X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)).

You can gain pretty much infinite AC (limited by WBL) by stacking as many defending weapons as you can afford. Works RAW but it's likely to cause book throwing by the DM.

[Hirax]

Have a look here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070212a) for some armor that not only doesn't have a max dex bonus, but would increase your dex mod to 14. Just don't fail any saving throws against cold attacks, and make sure to get a high CL of hardening cast on the armor. edit: the reflective armor feat in Races of Stone can get your armor bonus to apply to touch AC, if that's of interest. There's a feat in Lords of Madness that makes your shield bonus apply to touch AC too, so you could use that with an animated shield.

[Acidic]

Enchanted clothing is definitly not regular clothing.
.

That's well and good, but if Magic Vestment works on armor, and clothing with 0 AC is counted as armor for this spell, wouldn't clothing with 8 AC also count as armor? I just don't get why a 0-AC armor would work for this spell, and the exact same armor with a valid +8 armor enchantment would not.

As far as the other responses, I'm staying straight fighter, no dips. I found the clockwork armor before, but it's just not worth all of the risks. I did pick up parrying shield for the shield to touch, and the deflective armor feat in RoS only works on heavy armor, which I can't wear with 34dex. Thanks for all of the advice though!

[docnessuno]

That's well and good, but if Magic Vestment works on armor, and clothing with 0 AC is counted as armor for this spell, wouldn't clothing with 8 AC also count as armor? I just don't get why a 0-AC armor would work for this spell, and the exact same armor with a valid +8 armor enchantment would not.

Because the spell clearly states:

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.

Premises:
1) The spell can only target armor or shields
2) Regular clothing, counts as 0 AC armor for the spell
3) Magical enchanted clothing is not regular clothing

Conclusion:
The spell cannot target Magical enchanted clothing

---

If you are dead set on raising your AC, stacking defensive weapons works RAW.

[tyckspoon]

That's well and good, but if Magic Vestment works on armor, and clothing with 0 AC is counted as armor for this spell, wouldn't clothing with 8 AC also count as armor? I just don't get why a 0-AC armor would work for this spell, and the exact same armor with a valid +8 armor enchantment would not.


*shrug* They don't stack anyway. You're doing the same thing as if you were wearing +8 Bracers of Armor and then casting Magic Vestments on your shirt- you are now wearing two separate sources of armor, the 8-point Bracers and your 5-point shirt. You can't get this one both ways; if your magic clothing has a base value of +8 to stack with the Magic Vestments spell, then it's not 'regular clothing' and the spell can't apply to it. If it is 'regular clothing', then as per the spell it has a base value of 0 Armor, and won't stack with the armor bonus already on it. (Or, basically, the fact that your shirt happens to be granting you an Armor bonus doesn't actually make it armor- that +8 Armor is a distinct magical property, and Magic Vestments only stacks onto the value of the item as actual armor. Which is considered to be 0.)

If you want an armor, check out Gnome Twistcloth in Races of Stone. 1 AC bonus, no ACP, no Maximum Dexterity. You'll still get better AC by wearing a Bracers-equivalent, but it gives you another surface to put useful enhancements on.

[Acidic]

Alright, I've just seen it ruled both ways on these exact forums before, and I just wanted to get everyone's opinions on it.

I still don't understand why a set of clothing counts as armor(for the purpose of magic vestment), but the second it has any kind of permanent spell cast on it, it no longer counts as armor(for the purpose of magic vestment). If it counted as armor(for the purpose of magic vestment) originally, and then I cast an ARMOR enchantment on it, shouldn't it still count as armor(for the purpose of magic vestment)? I guess that's just one of the cases where text trumps logic again.

Anyways, because this has been discussed so heavily and debated before(and getting various answers), I'll run it by my DM.

I'm trying to keep cheese to a minimum, so no multiple armor spikes. My guy has a +5 animated heavy shield with +5 defending shield spikes, so not putting defending spikes on anything else.

[docnessuno]

I still don't understand why a set of clothing counts as armor(for the purpose of magic vestment), but the second it has any kind of permanent spell cast on it, it no longer counts as armor(for the purpose of magic vestment). If it counted as armor(for the purpose of magic vestment) originally, and then I cast an ARMOR enchantment on it, shouldn't it still count as armor(for the purpose of magic vestment)? I guess that's just one of the cases where text trumps logic again.

Because a set of clothing doesn't count as armor for the spell. A set of regular clothing does. It's also quite understandable by a balance POV. A +5 full plate give the same exact +13 armor bonus that a +8/+5 set of clothes would if the whole things was possible, but carries all the drawbacks of an heavvy armor (or a medium one if crafted out of mithral).

[Toliudar]

The more important part of the argument against this working is that the bonuses from enchanting the clothing and from Magic Vestment are both enhancement bonuses to the armour. Bonuses of the same type don't stack. The 'regular' clothing part of this conversation is superfluous.

[docnessuno]

The more important part of the argument against this working is that the bonuses from enchanting the clothing and from Magic Vestment are both enhancement bonuses to the armour. Bonuses of the same type don't stack. The 'regular' clothing part of this conversation is superfluous.

This is wrong:


These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.

Bracers of armor NEVER mentions enhancement.

[Kelb_Panthera]

On the regular clothing disagreement. Do realize that that's a judgement call, not clear-cut RAW. "Regular" is not a game key-word and what constitutes "regular clothing" is entirely subjective as a result.

The strictly RAW answer to the question is "Maybe." You'll have to ask your DM to make a judgement call.

I'd allow it, because it's no different than casting magic vestments on a suit of plate.

More helpfully. If you're gonna go overboard on the AC thing (not necessarily the best plan, but it's your character) don't forget to pick up a set of dastana and a cahar-aina. Both are from OA and both give an armor bonus that explicitly stacks with several other types of armor. Enhance the crap out of both.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Magic Vestment grants an Enhancement bonus to your current Armor bonus or Shield bonus.

"You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell."

While that would imply that magical clothing that grants an armor bonus is an invalid target, take the following:

Bracers of Armor:
"These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor."

You get an Armor bonus to AC just as though you were wearing armor. That means that for purposes of all game mechanics that affect an armor bonus, you are wearing armor, which means it can be targeted by Magic Vestment. The Armor bonus addition per MIC p234 functions like Bracers of Armor, so it falls under the same ruling.

[only1doug]

So if your gm says no to magic vestments for the reasons given here simply stack the two types from mic, armour bonus + enhancement to armour bonus, which can both be applied to the body slot. Total bonus + 13, total cost, huge.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So if your gm says no to magic vestments for the reasons given here simply stack the two types from mic, armour bonus + enhancement to armour bonus, which can both be applied to the body slot. Total bonus + 13, total cost, huge.

^Maxes out at 164000gp. Minimum is 2000 for a +1 armor bonus with a +1 enhancement for a +2 "armor"

[Mystral]

Your clothing, or the armor bracers, give you an armor bonus.

Magic Vestment gives you an enchantment bonus.

These stack.

I would allow casting magic vestment on magically reinforced clothing.

[TypoNinja]

I think you are conflating two issues.

Yes you can enchant clothes, but it can be done in one of two ways.

If its Armor you essentially have 0ACP 0AC +5 armor. Just like the normal rules for armor in the DMG. That's an Enhancement bonus and won't stack with Vestments.

Or you can make your shirt a Body slot Wondrous Item that functions as Bracers of Armour. The Wondrous Item option lets you get more AC out of it, but costs more.

Magic Vestment won't work at all for the second option however. While the bonuses would stack, the vestments spell specifies target: Armor or shield touched. Bracers of Armor are not in fact Armor, they are a Wondrous Item.

[Arcanist]

Magic Vestment won't work at all for the second option however. While the bonuses would stack, the vestments spell specifies target: Armor or shield touched. Bracers of Armor are not in fact Armor, they are a Wondrous Item.

Isn't that just a little Ironic? :smalltongue:

[TypoNinja]

Isn't that just a little Ironic? :smalltongue:

Maybe? They do provide an armor bonus, but on the other hand, since its not actually literally armour...

[juicycaboose]

Maybe? They do provide an armor bonus, but on the other hand, since its not actually literally armour...

"regular clothing" isn't literally armour either

[TypoNinja]

"regular clothing" isn't literally armour either

No but the spell text specifically calls out that it can target regular clothes.

[Sutremaine]

Heavily-customised Robe of the Archmagi?

[Kornaki]

Regular clothing counts as armor, so if I can cast this spell on enchanted armor I can cast this spell on enchanted. At least this seems like the most reasonable interpretation to me

[animewatcha]

So then what do you do with Magic vestment used on armor AND shield? Shield armor bonus explicitly stacks with armor. What about enhancement bonuses on both?

[Siosilvar]

So then what do you do with Magic vestment used on armor AND shield? Shield armor bonus explicitly stacks with armor. What about enhancement bonuses on both?

They stack, just like a shield and armor enhanced the normal way stack. A +5 Heavy Shield gives a +7 shield bonus to AC, not a +2 shield bonus and a +5 enhancement bonus.

[TuggyNE]

So then what do you do with Magic vestment used on armor AND shield? Shield armor bonus explicitly stacks with armor. What about enhancement bonuses on both?

Enhancement bonuses to armor, shield, and natural armor are sub-bonuses: you basically have an armor enhancement bonus, a shield enhancement bonus, and a natural armor enhancement bonus. So they stack with everything except other enhancement bonuses to the same source. (Off-hand, I'm not aware of this behavior in any other situation.)

[Acidic]

Enhancement bonuses to armor, shield, and natural armor are sub-bonuses: you basically have an armor enhancement bonus, a shield enhancement bonus, and a natural armor enhancement bonus. So they stack with everything except other enhancement bonuses to the same source. (Off-hand, I'm not aware of this behavior in any other situation.)

One example of this would be casting Magic Vestment on +5 full plate. The +5 enhancement enchantment would not stack with the +5 enhancement from magic vestment.

[Mithril Leaf]

If you want some armor that isn't exotic, there's leafwrap in A&EG. I love that stuff, really cool.

[Eldest]

Because the spell clearly states:


Premises:
1) The spell can only target armor or shields
2) Regular clothing, counts as 0 AC armor for the spell
3) Magical enchanted clothing is not regular clothing

Conclusion:
The spell cannot target Magical enchanted clothing

---

If you are dead set on raising your AC, stacking defensive weapons works RAW.

Spell can be used on A or B.
C counts as A.
Enchanted A counts as A.

Enchanted C does not count as C (and so as A) does not follow from this. It's not clear, but if I had to infer something from this, I'd say that it does say you can target enchanted cloths.

There's a step of logic missing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think you are conflating two issues.

Yes you can enchant clothes, but it can be done in one of two ways.

If its Armor you essentially have 0ACP 0AC +5 armor. Just like the normal rules for armor in the DMG. That's an Enhancement bonus and won't stack with Vestments.

Or you can make your shirt a Body slot Wondrous Item that functions as Bracers of Armour. The Wondrous Item option lets you get more AC out of it, but costs more.

Magic Vestment won't work at all for the second option however. While the bonuses would stack, the vestments spell specifies target: Armor or shield touched. Bracers of Armor are not in fact Armor, they are a Wondrous Item.

How is this anything different than saying that magical clothing isn't normal clothing? So the shirt happens to also be a woundrous item that grants an armor bonus. That doesn't make it any less of a shirt.

More concerning, this implies that -no- magic item that occupies the torso slot could count as normal clothing. This leads to high-level characters that don't wear armor finding themselves in the position of only being able to target their pants* with magic vestments, since all the rest of your clothing is magic items.


*Maybe not even them. OA says you can sub a pair of hakama pants for a cloak in any cloak of X magic items. That's right, there are in fact, not only magic pants, but pants of charisma. :smallbiggrin:

[TypoNinja]

How is this anything different than saying that magical clothing isn't normal clothing? So the shirt happens to also be a woundrous item that grants an armor bonus. That doesn't make it any less of a shirt.

More concerning, this implies that -no- magic item that occupies the torso slot could count as normal clothing. This leads to high-level characters that don't wear armor finding themselves in the position of only being able to target their pants* with magic vestments, since all the rest of your clothing is magic items.


*Maybe not even them. OA says you can sub a pair of hakama pants for a cloak in any cloak of X magic items. That's right, there are in fact, not only magic pants, but pants of charisma. :smallbiggrin:

Because the shirt* you are wearing may or may not be the same thing as the Magic item occupying your chest slot. For example, I like to use a vest, goes over the shirt. Mundane shirt, magic vest. Easier if I want to pass off the magic item to a party member as well.

In relation to this example, if you went with the Armour rules from the DMG you could have a +5 shirt giving you 5 AC, and its your armor so you can still get a vest of +con on top of that. Your +5 shirt already being maxed out doesn't stack with Magic Vestments.

A completely non-magical shirt, which is not actually armor, but is called out specifically in the spell text as being a valid target could take a Magic Vestments.

If you instead made a Chest slot Wondrous Item that functioned as bracers of Armour, it could still be enchanted further as per the rules for that, but since Bracers (or Vests) of Armor are not actually armor, but is instead a Wondrous Item it is not a valid target for the Magic Vestments spell.

In these three cases you have;

1. The Bonuses don't stack, so are redundant, there is no point in casting Magic Vestments.

2. A valid target for the spell.

3. An invalid target for the spell.

*Note that while I say 'shirt' since were talking about using your chest slot magic item for this, the Magic Vestments spell calls for an 'outfit'.