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Maryring
2012-10-31, 05:02 AM
In a gameworld where outsiders, Celestials and Demons and Devils and all that reform when they're killed on the prime material plane. How would Celestials deal with suicide?

On one hand, suicide is wrong. Mortals really shouldn't throw their lives away so easily, and Celestials are supposed to lead by example and be an actual measurement stick for mortals to look to and be inspired.

On the other hand, the ability to kill yourself and just wake up later on at your home in Celestia means that you've essentially been given a "get out of jail for free" card. It'd mean that keeping a Celestial locked up can be very difficult, as he can just bash his own head in, in order to get out of his entrapment and return to general do-goodery in the world at large.

AuraTwilight
2012-10-31, 05:40 AM
Uh...is this a rule specific to a homebrew setting? Because by RAW, a dead Outsider is effectively gone forever barring certain spells. The "reforming on their home plane" thing only happens if you summon a creature, and this protection would apply to summoned non-Outsiders too.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-10-31, 05:50 AM
Well, I think the answer strongly depends on why you'd say "Suicide is wrong."

If you argue that it's wrong because it's an individual placing themselves above their societal obligations, I'd definitely call that a Lawful viewpoint and possibly make it a point of contention between the Archons and the Eladrin (or whatever the equivalents are in your setting).

In this case, I don't think there's really a problem because, well, if you're going to respawn somewhere else when you commit suicide, it's not actually dodging your obligations. It might actually be helping to fulfill them depending on the situation.

Or, you could argue that suicide represents giving into despair, and it's important to always hold out hope for the future.

In which case... I still don't think it's a problem, because a celestial committing suicide as a fast way back to their home plane is a calculated decision, not the result of depression or hopelessness.


Really, what matters here is the ideology your celestials stand to represent (and "Lawful Good" is nowhere close to a sufficient description) and how the specific act of performing suicide as an act of convenience relates to this ideology.

PersonMan
2012-10-31, 06:34 AM
Uh...is this a rule specific to a homebrew setting? Because by RAW, a dead Outsider is effectively gone forever barring certain spells. The "reforming on their home plane" thing only happens if you summon a creature, and this protection would apply to summoned non-Outsiders too.

Actually, in the Fiendish Codices it's noted that Demons and Devils reform on their home plane after 99 years if killed. I don't remember reading similar about Celestials, but it's not a stretch to assume the same applied to them.

EDIT: The whole 'wait 99 years, then reform' thing probably puts a wrench in the whole 'suicide -> go home' plan, though.

hamishspence
2012-10-31, 06:48 AM
True Resurrection spells do work on celestials- and Complete Divine explains that it's because, while the "soul matter" dissolves rapidly into the home plane, it can still be reconstituted.

Summoned celestials and other Outsiders (as opposed to ones that are there "in person") automatically reappear at home.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-10-31, 06:59 AM
Actually, in the Fiendish Codices it's noted that Demons and Devils reform on their home plane after 99 years if killed. I don't remember reading similar about Celestials, but it's not a stretch to assume the same applied to them.

Only devils, actually.

PersonMan
2012-10-31, 07:01 AM
Only devils, actually.

Ah. It's been a while since I've cracked open my Hordes of the Abyss, so I guess I just misremembered what was in there.

JBento
2012-10-31, 07:27 AM
Only devils, actually.

That's because the current theory is that demons aren't actually individual beings.

It seems that at the start, everything was Limbo. Then some gods came along and started turning Limbo matter into stable stuff (like rocks and water and trees), and a part of Limbo hated that so much it actually BECAME SELF-AWARE (and [Evil]). And thus was the Abyss born.

Ever since then, the valiant Abyss has detached parts of itself, imbuing them with life separate from itself to defeat the host of criminals lead by Pelor, the Burning Hate, and return the multiverse to its primal, natural state.

When a demon dies, its consciousness is reabsorbed by the Abyss, who may or may not return it to life after a period of time (or immediately) to fight the good [Evil] fight.

Demons: the REAL freedom fighters.

Maryring
2012-10-31, 07:41 AM
What RAW states is pretty much irrelevant though. This ain't even DnD 3.5. Just that outsider is the best descriptive term I can use for supernatural otherwordly entities. They die and wake up in their home a short while later, regardless of what they are.

Suicide is wrong for several reasons. Wastefully discarding the life you've been given, giving in to despair and fear, selfishly leaving behind those who care and worry about you. But none of these are directly applicable for an outsider who can have perfectly tactical reasons for killing himself. Their problem lies in presentation. To kill themselves sends a statement to those around them. Assume that the angel has been trapped and is being tortured with several other mortals. Given the opportunity he could try to kill himself and then return in order to try and save them. But while he is there he also acts as a beacon of hope, support and comfort for the others. Killing himself could inspire the others to do so, but for the mortals that would be giving into the despair, fear and sorrow.

That's the difficulty I suppose. To act as a beacon and alleviate suffering, or remove yourself from the situation to return later and try (with no guarantee of success) to end it completely.

ReaderAt2046
2012-10-31, 07:57 AM
If celestials, gods, or demons can rematerialize when "killed" they cannot commit suicide or be murdered or killed in any way remotely analogous to what happens to us. I do not think that a Celestial destroying his body (in order to return home) would be wrong, simply because it does not do any permanent harm.

TheCountAlucard
2012-10-31, 09:39 AM
On one hand, suicide is wrong.Why? :smallconfused:

Frozen_Feet
2012-10-31, 09:45 AM
You've got the premise of the whole question wrong. A summoned Outsider does not die when they are wounded, it's only halfway there in the first place. There's no moral dilemma for summoned Outsiders unsummoning themselves through physical trauma, because it is not suicide! It's more like slapping yourself to stay awake.

Now, called Outsiders or those on their home plane would probably be very reluctant to commit suicide, but that's because they truly and irrecovably die if they do that, no need to involve moral at all.

Arcanist
2012-10-31, 10:30 AM
Why? :smallconfused:

Because death is wrong/sick/bad and all gods with the death domain are evil...(there is like one that disproved this)

I believe there is a trope for this and if there isn't I shall name it "Death is everyones bully". :smalltongue:

Lapak
2012-10-31, 10:49 AM
If in your campaign suicide is wrong, the not-quite-suicide question depends on the sub-type of Celestial. Lawful Good outsiders might bear up and be an example of endurance and martyrdom; Chaotic Good types would probably use it as a way to achieve freedom and likely come back in force.

But I'm throwing my hat in with the posters challenging the idea that it has to be seen as wrong in the first place (again, not saying it can't be in your campaign, just saying that it's not written in stone.) There is real-world precedent for societies where it's seen as morally neutral or even morally positive in certain situations, and a campaign world could fall into one of those categories pretty easily.

Many of the major objections to it fall apart in D&D-land:
- in campaigns without a monotheistic Creator-type god, mortals aren't really 'given' their lives by anyone, so their fate is their own
- with a provable afterlife, death is known to be non-final and even some of the consequences for surviving family members are or can be mitigated (via Speak with Dead and etc.)
- depending on the campaign, that provable afterlife may even add an argument for it - if you're going from durance vile in the hands of the fire jötnar straight to Valhalla where you'll be an additional warrior against the Ragnarök, you're actively being HELPFUL by dying.
- with resurrection magics, it isn't even necessarily permanent for non-Celestials.

Slipperychicken
2012-10-31, 10:49 AM
How would Celestials deal with suicide?


They don't, because they live on the Plane of Infinite Happiness and Sunshine, and would never suicide because they're always happy.


EDIT: Also, suicide just means you become a loser ghost petitioner more quickly. Suicide didn't make it onto my Evil Acts list.

Zorg
2012-10-31, 11:59 AM
Suicide is wrong for several reasons. Wastefully discarding the life you've been given, giving in to despair and fear, selfishly leaving behind those who care and worry about you.

You should read this and re-assess your statement. (http://marxisforbros.com/post/32443722932/whether-to-kill-yourself-or-not-is-one-of-the-most)

nyarlathotep
2012-10-31, 12:09 PM
Why? :smallconfused:

Presumably for similar reasons to murder being wrong. You are damaging and harming everyone who ever cared for the individual who died except in this case you are harming those closest to you and in effect betraying their trust in you. Now this is of course different if you are going to reform unharmed, or if you have literally no loved ones left, or possibly (not going to get into the argument over this now as it is really something better to be done on a case by case basis) if you are in so much pain that your loved ones would prefer you to be dead and spare whatever it is that is causing you terminal suffering.

PersonMan
2012-10-31, 12:36 PM
You should read this and re-assess your statement. (http://marxisforbros.com/post/32443722932/whether-to-kill-yourself-or-not-is-one-of-the-most)

Unfortunately, your link seems to be broken, so he (and I everyone else) can't.

Zorg
2012-10-31, 12:49 PM
Odd, what error are you getting? Tumblr has had some issues of late with the storm in the US.

Try this link (http://livefromplanetearth.tumblr.com/post/32678633182).

TheCountAlucard
2012-10-31, 01:05 PM
You are damaging and harming everyone who ever cared for the individual who died except in this case you are harming those closest to you and in effect betraying their trust in you.How? In a world where an "eternal reward" afterlife most assuredly exists, how is it hurting or damaging anyone but, perhaps, your most hated enemies, to ensure that you are, in fact, going on to said eternal reward?

As far as I can tell, the biggest downside to being dead is no longer being on the material plane; you are metaphysically changing your address, relocating yourself from a bad neighborhood.

2xMachina
2012-10-31, 01:09 PM
What RAW states is pretty much irrelevant though. This ain't even DnD 3.5. Just that outsider is the best descriptive term I can use for supernatural otherwordly entities. They die and wake up in their home a short while later, regardless of what they are.

Suicide is wrong for several reasons. Wastefully discarding the life you've been given, giving in to despair and fear, selfishly leaving behind those who care and worry about you. But none of these are directly applicable for an outsider who can have perfectly tactical reasons for killing himself. Their problem lies in presentation. To kill themselves sends a statement to those around them. Assume that the angel has been trapped and is being tortured with several other mortals. Given the opportunity he could try to kill himself and then return in order to try and save them. But while he is there he also acts as a beacon of hope, support and comfort for the others. Killing himself could inspire the others to do so, but for the mortals that would be giving into the despair, fear and sorrow.

That's the difficulty I suppose. To act as a beacon and alleviate suffering, or remove yourself from the situation to return later and try (with no guarantee of success) to end it completely.

They're basically casting Planeshift, with the spell effect of leaving a body behind.


How? In a world where an "eternal reward" afterlife most assuredly exists, how is it hurting or damaging anyone but, perhaps, your most hated enemies, to ensure that you are, in fact, going on to said eternal reward?

As far as I can tell, the biggest downside to being dead is no longer being on the material plane; you are metaphysically changing your address, relocating yourself from a bad neighborhood.

With planeshift, that's not a problem either.

Whoops dead. Nevermind, I'll just planeshift back with some superpowers.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-10-31, 01:24 PM
How? In a world where an "eternal reward" afterlife most assuredly exists, how is it hurting or damaging anyone but, perhaps, your most hated enemies, to ensure that you are, in fact, going on to said eternal reward?

This is not necessarily true in the OP's setting, and, really, not even necessarily true in all official D&D settings. This isn't how it works at all in Eberron, for instance (in Eberron everyone is ferried off to Dolurrh which is a bleak nightmare world, regardless of their deeds in life), and in the FR while the Good afterlives *sound* like nice places to be, in death you arrive as a petitioner which is not at all fun.


And, really, I don't think their argument is valid even in the real world: Is everything that greatly disappoints your friends and family wrong? Like, say, becoming a professional musician when your father really wanted you to become a lawyer, or getting married to someone you really like but your friends and family aren't so fond of (like if they're in a lower economic class or they aren't the right skin color, which sadly is still a thing at least around here)?

ReaderAt2046
2012-10-31, 03:54 PM
Why? :smallconfused:

Suicide is a sin of incredible rudeness. It is going forth and saying to every bird, every flower, every sunrise "You are worthless, you are not worth living for." It is declaring that there is no woman worth kissing, no meal worth eating, no painting or statue or scenic vista worth looking upon. In addition, suicide is an extreme form of cowardice. It is declaring that you are not willing to do what you were placed in the world to do, it is desrting your post in the great battle line.

We must, however, be careful not to confuse suicide with martyrdom. Where suicide is saying "there is nothing in the world worth living for", martyrdom is saying "This one thing is so incredibly important that it is worth dying and forfeiting everything else if I may only have this" and it can be one of the great virtues (note that I say "can be", it depends on what you assign such preeminence to.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-10-31, 03:58 PM
How? In a world where an "eternal reward" afterlife most assuredly exists, how is it hurting or damaging anyone but, perhaps, your most hated enemies, to ensure that you are, in fact, going on to said eternal reward?

As far as I can tell, the biggest downside to being dead is no longer being on the material plane; you are metaphysically changing your address, relocating yourself from a bad neighborhood.

This again. Really?

In D&D the vast majority of people have no more proof of an afterlife than we have in reality.

Some spellcasters of middle-ish level have the ability to make contact with or, travel to, the outer spheres. Everybody else just has to take their word for it. Your average dirt-farmer has probably heard about the afterlife from the head of his local church.

Consider for a moment that the head of that church may or may not be a cleric and that even if he is, he may not be of a high enough level to actually contact any outsiders. In that case, the head of the church has only ever heard about the afterlife from -his- superiors, or maybe from a cleric with the necessary power to have actually made such contact. Then you consider that we're talking about a polytheistic world, in which many churches will be selling afterlifes that don't necessarily match.

A deacon of the church of heironeous is going to be painting a very different picture of heavan than a preacher of Ehlonna, nevermind the dark gods' clergies and agents of the Athar trying to discredit them both, or hucksters trying to make a buck spinning yarns of complete nonsense.

To review; Average Joe Dirt-farmer is getting his picture of the afterlife from who knows how many conflicting 3rd or 4th hand accounts, at best, or just as many accounts even further removed from an eye-witness alongside completely made up stories at worst.

You can prove that magic is real and you can prove that angels and devils are real, but you can't prove to someone there's an afterlife unless you actually take them across the veil. Even then they won't be absolutely certain unless they run into a dead relative, who may or may not remember them depending on how quickly petitioners forget their mortal lives and how long this particular relative's been dead.

warty goblin
2012-10-31, 07:48 PM
Suicide is a sin of incredible rudeness. It is going forth and saying to every bird, every flower, every sunrise "You are worthless, you are not worth living for." It is declaring that there is no woman worth kissing, no meal worth eating, no painting or statue or scenic vista worth looking upon. In addition, suicide is an extreme form of cowardice. It is declaring that you are not willing to do what you were placed in the world to do, it is desrting your post in the great battle line.

Er, no. It's saying that those things are not worth going through your current situation, if they would even be possible for you at some point in the future. Essentially that the benefit of living no longer outweighs the cost of living, which does not deny that living has benefits.


We must, however, be careful not to confuse suicide with martyrdom. Where suicide is saying "there is nothing in the world worth living for", martyrdom is saying "This one thing is so incredibly important that it is worth dying and forfeiting everything else if I may only have this" and it can be one of the great virtues (note that I say "can be", it depends on what you assign such preeminence to.
Alternatively, suicide is saying that you are willing to die to escape your current situation, which sort of by construction elevates your current situation to something it's so important to be free of that you'd die for it.

ReaderAt2046
2012-10-31, 08:06 PM
I'm directly drawing on G.K. Chesterton here, so I'm not going to back down on this.

tensai_oni
2012-10-31, 08:29 PM
The problem with suicide isn't some nebulous "you're a coward, taking the easy way out of your problems" or "you tell the world it's not world living for" but rather - that you hurt a lot of people, friends and especially relatives, who have to cope with your death.

This is NOT an issue with creatures, celestials or not, who are stated to respawn after death. In fact you'd barely call it a suicide if they just pop back up in their homes alive and well.

kamikasei
2012-10-31, 08:40 PM
Not touching the morality-of-suicide argument, though I hope the self-righteousness on display above doesn't get turned on any actually suicidal person in the future.

On the actual question:

Assume that the angel has been trapped and is being tortured with several other mortals. Given the opportunity he could try to kill himself and then return in order to try and save them. But while he is there he also acts as a beacon of hope, support and comfort for the others. Killing himself could inspire the others to do so, but for the mortals that would be giving into the despair, fear and sorrow.

That's the difficulty I suppose. To act as a beacon and alleviate suffering, or remove yourself from the situation to return later and try (with no guarantee of success) to end it completely.
Look at how absurdly contrived you've had to make this. For the angel simply to escape also removes the "beacon of hope, support and comfort". Yes, a short-sighted fellow captive might look at an angel using a die-respawn cheat and think "he didn't endure this, why should I have to?" rather than "right, that's a sensible response to the situation given how he and I differ". Any action might be taken up badly by anyone. You're not making an argument about the inherent morality of the action itself. At best, you're arguing that circumstances might conceivably exist where you have to forgo what would be an optimal course of action because others are dependent on you.

ReaderAt2046
2012-10-31, 08:40 PM
Agreed on your second count. Celestials, devils, and gods cannot commit suicide because they cannot die.

Jane_Smith
2012-10-31, 10:13 PM
Suicide as a taboo is purely based on a cultural basis. Ancient Chinese and Roman culture, for example, found it honorable for a warrior to throw there lives away in battle in suicidal rushs to glory for there lords and go all out, or to commit suicide ritually when they had failed there masters or brought dishonor upon them or there family name to wash away that dishonor/clean said name.

Just like how many believe murder and sacrifice to be evil, but aztecs for example believed it to be a great honor to be sacrificed to be sent to there god/etc. Foreigners not so much, but meh.

A good example would be you discover you are a lycanthrope. If you find yourself in a fight or someone else tries to kill you, you black out and find them dead. But you can still chose to kill yourself, and it would be in everyone's best interest if you did so.

Or maybe your infected with some kinda larva - removing it would kill you, but it will kill you if it hatchs and it would grow into something that would kill many others. Removing it and destroying it with your final breath would be an honorable deed, but still suicide.

Or maybe your the "chosen one" for the dark side. Your destiny is written in stone by the gods and maybe you will give birth to some bringer of darkness or you can feel yourself becoming more corrupt and cruel as the years go on, no matter how hard to fight it. Maybe just by existing you allow portals to the far realm to open up or something, who knows? But rather then being the bringer of damnation, you can choose to end your life and stop the apocalypse/etc.

(Example - Martin Septim, TES: 4, Oblivion, best suicide ever)

Or maybe the expedition you were on is out of food, help is days away, and your starving in the cold with a few other people. You know your the weakest and have the fewest survival skills, and everything is frozen over and there is no food to find in the mountains without digging threw several feet of iron-like ice. You could opt to kill yourself to feed the others - sure, cannibalism and suicide both are evil to most societies, but if you can save other peoples lives with both, while gross, you would be a hero.

"Good and evil does not exists, but thinking makes it so." Why do you think the abyss and the heavens in fantasy settings are not raw elemental realms like the plane of fire/water/shadow/etc planes? Only sentient beings can decide to be evil or good, and many peoples opinions will tell you different things for whats sinful or not. Say in forgotten realms, if Ao decided to make evil "good" and good "evil", suddenly people would be seeking demons and devils for blessings and fertile crops, while angels would be feared and despised - so then it would be completely subject to the overlord god in charge.

Also for outsiders dying permanently or not; they will always reform in there plane of existence if they die outside of it, not just if they are summoned.

KnightOfV
2012-11-01, 12:12 AM
Trying to get away from the 'Real Life' morality that is NOT the topic of the thread... no one asked for a Hamlet soliloquy on the virtues or downsides of killing themselves...

I don't think Celestial Suicide would be practical, no matter what kind of world you are playing in (unless the world has magic 'respawn' points.) Forget about the morality, and if it is 'right' or 'wrong' for Celestials to kill themselves. At BEST, if the planes are revolving doors in your setting and it is easy for Celestials to return, then there is a WAY bigger problem. Celestials can enter the world at will. Presumably, Demons can too. That means the wars of heaven and hell just got moved to the mortal plane, with demons and angels carelessly and endlessly waging war and killing each other, since there is nothing at stake but a commute across plains.

Usually though, there is effort involved for Outsiders to get to the Material Plane. They have to be Reincarnated, Re-summoned, or Resurrected and NONE of those R-words is particularly easy or convenient. A Reincarnated Celestial might have to retrain all of his skills, and go through childhood again meaning he is not able to do whatever his purpose is for years. A Re-summoned or Resurrected Celestial needs an ally powerful enough to bring them back, and even then their ally probably needs to perform an expensive ritual such as True Resurrection or Gate. And that is if the Celestial is allowed to come back at all. Outsiders are Pure representations of their Alignment, and if they are judged to have been unworthy (like if a Lawful Good angel abandoned his duty by killing himself) then a different Outsider may be sent instead. And there might be rules about how often they can come back to the Material Plane, like others have mentioned.

So yea, a Celestial would probably not FEAR death, but I don't think any Celestial would ever choose suicide unless it was a heroic sacrifice to further their purpose in the world, because once they leave the world... they are probably not coming back again.

Zorg
2012-11-01, 12:15 AM
I think the most selfish behaviour on display around a suicide are the people who's reaction is not to reflect on how incredibly awful the persons life must have been to even attempt the act, but to yell about how terrible the person was to hurt them and leave them.
Empathy fail.


- Pauline Fleming, ‘Heathers’ (1988)

Some of the most popularly regurgitated rhetoric regarding suicide is that it is, in essence, a selfish act. This rhetoric is applied to seemingly all instances of suicide in which the death causes any kind of distress to anyone that survives the victim. In fact, the rhetoric suggests that in the moment that one commits suicide they actually cease to be the victim and become something more of a perpetrator, with all those that outlive them becoming victims. Victims of the selfish act; The suicide.

There are several issues with this logic, one of the most striking being that it seems to suggest that our lives to a certain extent belong to those around us, or to put it more clearly, our continued presence is a commodity which others are apparently entitled to. For one to take one’s own life, and thereby no longer share their presence with these people, it is selfish. The obvious criticism of this rationale is that it seems to conflict with the commonly accepted notion that our personhood and our presence are our own. Do you see your friends because you feel obligated to give them their time with you, as is their right? Do people that go on long vacations owe the people they’ve left behind some kind of debt? I think not. This notion of owing people your continued presence seems to imply that life is given to us in some kind of social trade scheme in which we continue living and as penance others get to spend time with us. While that might make for an interesting fantasy tale (or perhaps dystopian horror), I do not think it’s an accurate assumption.

Now it is important to make a clear distinction between selfish and irresponsible at this point. Selfishness relates to how considerate a person is, whereas irresponsible relates to how responsible they are. A considerate person is careful not to inconvenience others, while a responsible person has an obligation to a job or a cause. For example, let’s say that Jill and her friends get a pizza together, and that Jill eats more than her share. That would be selfish of her, as it would be inconsiderate. On the other hand let’s say that Ted and his children got a pizza together, and that Ted ate more than his share. This would be irresponsible of Ted, because as the father of those children Ted would have the obligation to make sure that they didn’t have to go to bed hungry.

Now, it is obvious that suicide can be irresponsible. If Ted, ashamed of the pizza he had eaten, walked upstairs and shot himself with a revolver, he would be further failing his obligation to his children – Forever. But would it be selfish? To answer that question, we need to escape the light pizza analogy and seriously consider the reasons that people commit suicide. Depression and other mental illnesses have one thing in common; They are not a choice. Likewise, being depressed to a point where suicide seems like the only option is also not a choice. The argument that could be made against this point is that there are positive choices that can be made; To seek therapy, to find God, medication, etc. There are many options. But this argument is naïve and lacks empathy. A person with a mental illness like depression, that is so affected that they are considering permanently ending their life, is not working with a positive decision making mind like the one that you are using to judge their actions.

Consider the stories you may have heard about drug addicts that see bugs crawling out of their skin. You may have seen pictures of the large wounds they scratch into their arms. Now, you can imagine what it would be like to have bugs on your arm. You may be able to picture bugs coming out of your arm. You may even be able to faintly imagine the crippling paranoia, fear and anxiety that would lead you to tear at your own flesh to remove these imaginary bugs. But all of this imagining and picturing would not get you so much as one step closer to that experience. Delusion though it was, that person believed that they had bugs coming out of their arms, and they tried to claw them out. They experienced that. For them, at that time, it was completely real. For a person with a mental illness that feels their only choice is suicide, it is just as real.

You can argue that the drug addict didn’t actually have bugs on their arm, but what’s the point? They believed they did. To argue that the person that commits suicide had a great range of choices before them is just as futile. They believe they don’t. So who would dare to claim that a person, depressed to the point of suicide, is selfish for making the only choice that they believed could end their suffering? And what’s more, who are we to call them selfish while we think of the impact it has had on ourselves? They left us, we lost them, so what? These people hit a level of despair so hopeless and empty that in their final moments they thoroughly believe that all of life held nothing good for them. Think of anything you like. Something you love. A place you’d like to go. Now try to imagine the thick blanket of sadness that would have to smother you in order for you to be rendered unable to derive any kind of joy from those things. I doubt that you could.

Comment: This is everything that I have been trying to say about suicide for the dozen or so years that I’ve gotten to know it on a personal basis, and put more eloquently than I have ever been able to articulate it.

Agreed and adding:

Some people who attempt suicide genuinely believe they are a burden to their loved ones, that they’re a waste of space, that everyone would be better off without them, that they’re a disappointment, etc. These are all thoughts and delusions common in people who suffer from depression. They genuinely believe that committing suicide would benefit the people around them. These people’s intentions are certainly not selfish.

RFLS
2012-11-01, 11:35 AM
I think we've strayed dangerously far from the topic and are probably in danger of getting the thread locked.

In reference to the OP, I don't think you thought your question through. It's not suicide if you're not dead afterwards.

Knaight
2012-11-01, 01:08 PM
Assume that the angel has been trapped and is being tortured with several other mortals. Given the opportunity he could try to kill himself and then return in order to try and save them. But while he is there he also acts as a beacon of hope, support and comfort for the others. Killing himself could inspire the others to do so, but for the mortals that would be giving into the despair, fear and sorrow.

I note that your example involves, in addition to something that vaguely resembles suicide if you don't look hard enough, the abandonment of the various mortals. Moreover, your argument hinges entirely on the latter part, which suggests that abandoning others for gain is wrong by your logic, not that temporary suicide is. After all, if temporary suicide were the problem it would be every bit as much a problem if they were trapped alone, a situation for which this argument holds no water.

As for the real life morality of suicide, I'm mostly going to avoid this. However, I would like to know how demanding that someone live when they are in incredible pain so that you don't have to feel sad about missing them is somehow less selfish than killing yourself.

2xMachina
2012-11-03, 10:50 AM
This again. Really?

In D&D the vast majority of people have no more proof of an afterlife than we have in reality.

Some spellcasters of middle-ish level have the ability to make contact with or, travel to, the outer spheres. Everybody else just has to take their word for it. Your average dirt-farmer has probably heard about the afterlife from the head of his local church.

Consider for a moment that the head of that church may or may not be a cleric and that even if he is, he may not be of a high enough level to actually contact any outsiders. In that case, the head of the church has only ever heard about the afterlife from -his- superiors, or maybe from a cleric with the necessary power to have actually made such contact. Then you consider that we're talking about a polytheistic world, in which many churches will be selling afterlifes that don't necessarily match.

A deacon of the church of heironeous is going to be painting a very different picture of heavan than a preacher of Ehlonna, nevermind the dark gods' clergies and agents of the Athar trying to discredit them both, or hucksters trying to make a buck spinning yarns of complete nonsense.

To review; Average Joe Dirt-farmer is getting his picture of the afterlife from who knows how many conflicting 3rd or 4th hand accounts, at best, or just as many accounts even further removed from an eye-witness alongside completely made up stories at worst.

You can prove that magic is real and you can prove that angels and devils are real, but you can't prove to someone there's an afterlife unless you actually take them across the veil. Even then they won't be absolutely certain unless they run into a dead relative, who may or may not remember them depending on how quickly petitioners forget their mortal lives and how long this particular relative's been dead.

If I were the D&D's religion's top man, every year, they will be a day for special celebration, with a show. Angels gated/summoned in full view of the whole city, and you can go interact with them.

And maybe a speech by the angel too, with their speech scribed down and distributed to anyone who wants it.

Sure, there are many afterlifes. But it becomes like a Uni fair with all the angels from that afterlife talking about the afterlife they're in.
Hey, our Uni has this, this that.
We too, except we have this instead of that
Join us!

Kelb_Panthera
2012-11-03, 01:35 PM
If I were one of D&D's religions' top men, every year, they will be a day for special celebration, with a show. Angels gated/summoned in full view of the whole city, and you can go interact with them.

And maybe a speech by the angel too, with their speech scribed down and distributed to anyone who wants it.

Sure, there are many afterlifes. But it becomes like a Uni fair with all the angels from that afterlife talking about the afterlife they're in.
Hey, our Uni has this, this that.
We too, except we have this instead of that
Join us!

FIFY.

Also, there's a couple major flaws there. Gate is prohibitively powerful to get a hold of, and costs xp. It's frequent use (even just once a year) would be difficult at best. Summon X is a waste of time, the duration's too short. That leaves only planar ally on the divine list, a spell that requires you cut a deal with the creatures. Celestials generally have better things to do than give a speech and do a Q&A with a bunch of berks.

There's also the tremendous issue of the fact that you're still only giving the majority of people a second hand account. A celestial creature may be a more credible witness than most, but he's still just somebody talking about something you won't see 'till you're dead.

Btw, way to make a prime terrorism target for the other side; you know, the followers and agents of fiendish powers and dark gods. You're not having a fair, you're staging a battle; whether you intended to or not.

Slipperychicken
2012-11-03, 02:09 PM
In D&D the vast majority of people have no more proof of an afterlife than we have in reality.


That doesn't stop people in reality, either. People in real life are content to take an acid trip and a few books as perfect irrefutable evidence of a life after death. D&D folk have much more reason to believe, with demonstrable, empirical evidence to back it up.


And these people hear tales (from sane folk, no less) of literal demons burning down towns, and angels flying in to save them. Reasonable, honest men travel into caves and come out babbling of demons and strange tentacled horrors, who appear from thin air one minute and fade from reality the next.

The dead walk the earth and eat the living. Ghosts flutter about and speak of the great beyond. Priests touch the wounded and heal their wounds in a flash of light, and gain their power from the GODS, who say there is an afterlife where they reside, and who reward with magic power those who believe strongly and dedicate themselves. Wizards chant with burning candles and summon angelic forms to their sides, those of whom who can speak of Celestia and Hell do so clear terms, giving mutually consistent accounts.


It's like saying you can't prove that New Zealand or Moldavia exist IRL unless you go there yourself. People come and go, it's on the map, goods come from there, and goods are sold there. Some visit and return, bringing consistent accounts of their journey.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-11-03, 04:53 PM
That doesn't stop people in reality, either. People in real life are content to take an acid trip and a few books as perfect irrefutable evidence of a life after death. D&D folk have much more reason to believe, with demonstrable, empirical evidence to back it up.


And these people hear tales (from sane folk, no less) of literal demons burning down towns, and angels flying in to save them. Reasonable, honest men travel into caves and come out babbling of demons and strange tentacled horrors, who appear from thin air one minute and fade from reality the next.

The dead walk the earth and eat the living. Ghosts flutter about and speak of the great beyond. Priests touch the wounded and heal their wounds in a flash of light, and gain their power from the GODS, who say there is an afterlife where they reside, and who reward with magic power those who believe strongly and dedicate themselves. Wizards chant with burning candles and summon angelic forms to their sides, those of whom who can speak of Celestia and Hell do so clear terms, giving mutually consistent accounts.


It's like saying you can't prove that New Zealand or Moldavia exist IRL unless you go there yourself. People come and go, it's on the map, goods come from there, and goods are sold there. Some visit and return, bringing consistent accounts of their journey.

All of these things are true as far as it goes. The thing of it is this; even proving that the outer planes are real doesn't necessarily equate to the afterlife being real. Petitioners forget the lives they led on the material.

At the same time, in most settings, the people that actually travel to the outer planes are exceedingly rare. By the demographics guidlines presented in the DMG there's only about 1:1000 people capable of even casting plane-shift, and not all of them will know how or have any desire to do so. Clerics say they get their power from the gods, but wizards don't and their existence makes it clear that faith isn't the only way to achieve magical power. If a wizard says he's a priest or a cleric says he's a mage, how's a laymen to tell?

That the afterlife is real in D&D is demonstrably true, doesn't change the fact that the overwhelming majority of people will never see any such conclusive demonstration.

As for mutually consistent accounts, there will be just as many mutually inconsistent, or even contradictory, accounts; either from people misremembering or deliberate subterfuge. The afterlives are at war with one another you know; heavans against hells, hells against other hells, and the ethically aligned afterlives besides.

If there were only one afterlife, and/or planar travel was massively easier, I'd have no problem with the notion that the afterlife was a proven fact and a given for most people in D&D land, but as it stands nearly all of the people have to go on faith, same as IRL. They do have much more convincing proselytizers than RL though, that's for sure.

Slipperychicken
2012-11-03, 09:39 PM
All of these things are true as far as it goes. The thing of it is this; even proving that the outer planes are real doesn't necessarily equate to the afterlife being real. Petitioners forget the lives they led on the material.

If actual people were that disbelieving, not only would they all be atheists, but we'd all be comically-skeptical, paranoid conspiracy-theorists incapable of believing any claim ever made by anyone.

"Hey, you ever go to Britain?"

[Enter STRAWMAN, hunched over and babbling madly]

"Britain doesn't exist. I've never been there, or seen anyone from there. The maps might well be fabricated. And the history books, too! And the news organizations, and the politicians, and the travel agents, and the so-called 'British' themselves all have a vested interest in me believing Britain exists: to push their historical narrative, comedy shows, funny accents, and textbook sales! It's all a lie, perpetuated by those fools in Washington and France and.."

"Hold on... how do you know either of those places exist? How do you know you exist?"

[Strawman explodes from critical logic-failure]

FIN

A good analogue would be the discovery of the Higgs Boson, or the moon landing. We don't see these things firsthand, we're told secondhand by media sources, and it's possible that both were extremely-sophisticated lies. Only a handful of extremely-intelligent and highly-trained people (analogous to high-level spellcasters), with the most sophisticated technology known to man are even capable of doing it. They certainly don't do these things on a regular basis.

So how do we know if it's legit? Because trusted authority figures (whose trust is earned, since their other claims ultimately turn out true) tell us, almost no-one refutes it, and those who do attempt to refute it lack any kind of sound reasoning (and certainly not empirical evidence). Because we can test the math, the established theories largely hold up under criticism, and the phenomena they explain work as expected.

Forum Explorer
2012-11-03, 09:58 PM
You should read this and re-assess your statement. (http://marxisforbros.com/post/32443722932/whether-to-kill-yourself-or-not-is-one-of-the-most)

I disagree with them. Mostly on the basis that they assume everyone commits suicide for the same basic reason (despair). Or to put it another way, they assume everyone's despair is the same.





If actual people were that disbelieving, not only would they all be atheists, but we'd all be comically-skeptical, paranoid conspiracy-theorists incapable of believing any claim ever made by anyone.

"Hey, you ever go to Britain?"

[Enter STRAWMAN, hunched over and babbling madly]

"Britain doesn't exist. I've never been there, or seen anyone from there. The maps might well be fabricated. And the history books, too! And the news organizations, and the politicians, and the travel agents, and the so-called 'British' themselves all have a vested interest in me believing Britain exists: to push their historical narrative, comedy shows, funny accents, and textbook sales! It's all a lie, perpetuated by those fools in Washington and France and.."

"Hold on... how do you know either of those places exist? How do you know you exist?"

[Strawman explodes from critical logic-failure]

FIN

A good analogue would be the discovery of the Higgs Boson, or the moon landing. We don't see these things firsthand, we're told secondhand by media sources, and it's possible that both were extremely-sophisticated lies. Only a handful of extremely-intelligent and highly-trained people (analogous to high-level spellcasters), with the most sophisticated technology known to man are even capable of doing it. They certainly don't do these things on a regular basis.

So how do we know if it's legit? Because trusted authority figures (whose trust is earned, since their other claims ultimately turn out true) tell us, almost no-one refutes it, and those who do attempt to refute it lack any kind of sound reasoning (and certainly not empirical evidence). Because we can test the math, the established theories largely hold up under criticism, and the phenomena they explain work as expected.

This is a good point. However the Strawman is clearly a French immigrient to Washington :smallwink:

Another good point is that if a Celestial died they could also come back. That's some pretty good proof right there.

Here's what I think it ultimatly comes down to. Where can the Celestial do the most good? Sometimes staying as a prisoner would be the better choice by keeping fellow prisoners alive and hopeful, or by taking abuse that would otherwise be inflicted upon them. If the Celestial thinks it can die, make it back, and free everyone without that much difficulty then clearly that's the better choice.

However I don't think a LG Celestial would kill itself. Too Chaotic of an action.

TheCountAlucard
2012-11-03, 11:17 PM
How is that supposed to be "Chaotic?" :smallconfused:

By the books, Law and Chaos are so ill-defined as to have almost no meaning at all; how can something as broad and multifaceted as offing oneself be easily pigeonholed into one or the other?

snikrept
2012-11-03, 11:33 PM
To paraphrase Tolkien, the gods / outsiders / immortals wear a material body as a mortal might wear a set of clothing... to them destroying the body would be about as troublesome as going unclad.

The concept of "suicide" denoting conscious destruction of self would not apply to this. Those same gods might be sad if *you* self-terminated, giving up their gift to you, but not at all sad if you burned a set of your clothes. Especially if said clothes were caught on a particularly troublesome snag that was keeping you from going about your business.

Kelb_Panthera
2012-11-04, 03:31 AM
If actual people were that disbelieving, not only would they all be atheists, but we'd all be comically-skeptical, paranoid conspiracy-theorists incapable of believing any claim ever made by anyone.

"Hey, you ever go to Britain?"

[Enter STRAWMAN, hunched over and babbling madly]

"Britain doesn't exist. I've never been there, or seen anyone from there. The maps might well be fabricated. And the history books, too! And the news organizations, and the politicians, and the travel agents, and the so-called 'British' themselves all have a vested interest in me believing Britain exists: to push their historical narrative, comedy shows, funny accents, and textbook sales! It's all a lie, perpetuated by those fools in Washington and France and.."

"Hold on... how do you know either of those places exist? How do you know you exist?"

[Strawman explodes from critical logic-failure]

FIN

A good analogue would be the discovery of the Higgs Boson, or the moon landing. We don't see these things firsthand, we're told secondhand by media sources, and it's possible that both were extremely-sophisticated lies. Only a handful of extremely-intelligent and highly-trained people (analogous to high-level spellcasters), with the most sophisticated technology known to man are even capable of doing it. They certainly don't do these things on a regular basis.

So how do we know if it's legit? Because trusted authority figures (whose trust is earned, since their other claims ultimately turn out true) tell us, almost no-one refutes it, and those who do attempt to refute it lack any kind of sound reasoning (and certainly not empirical evidence). Because we can test the math, the established theories largely hold up under criticism, and the phenomena they explain work as expected.

You're applying modern, scientific reasoning to pseudo-medieval peoples that have every reason to be extremely superstitious here. You're also ignoring that in a typical setting there is no mass media like newspapers or broadcast.

The fact of the matter is that most advanced scientific knowledge is taken on faith by the majority of people. I believe that an atom is made of a cluster of protons and neutrons surrounded by a field of orbiting electrons, but since I've never seen an individual atom or conducted any kind of experiment to prove the veracity of atomic theory I don't know that it's true. I don't even know with certainty that atoms really exist. It is, of course, absurdly unlikely that atomic theory is a hoax, but that doesn't change the fact that my acceptance of it is an act of faith on my part. Then again, if I were so inclined as to perform such experimentation, the only thing preventing me from doing so is the financial concern of securing the necessary equipment (I'm so broke it's almost funny.)

That's not the case with D&D and the afterlife. If farmer Dan wants to test his pastor's tales of the afterlife, the only option he has is to off himself. This is the biggest factor in the notion that acceptance of an afterlife is an act of faith. Unlike most any other theory (magical or scientific) it can't be tested by any laymen unless he's willing to sink a tremendous portion of his life, not to mention his actual life, into doing so.

Even amongst all those credible witnesses, few if any will have actually performed repeatable experiments to prove the afterlives' existence.

I'm not denying that with the "proof" placed in front of them, that a significant portion, if not overwhelming majority, of the people in D&D world will believe there's some sort of afterlife. I'm denying the fact that the majority of the faithful will have a complete, accurate picture of it; a denial that fits your own logic, btw, as most people IRL have an equally flawed picture of the advanced sciences.

Also of note; while, IRL, the vast majority of those who study the advanced sciences work toward a common goal of mutual and complete understanding of the laws that govern reality, In D&D the vast majority of those who study and proselytize for the nature of the afterlives are at odds with one another, only really agreeing that there is, in fact, an afterlife.

As for your strawman, let's try that with a different location. Replace Britain with the golden city of El Dorado or The sunken city of Atlantis. They'd be much more accurate RL analogues to the outer planes in D&D. Some people claim to have been there, but the vast majority of people not only haven't been there, but could spend a lifetime trying to find their way there with no success.

Finally, even if they buy the fact that the outer planes are real and the afterlife is real (not unreasonable or unexpected beliefs really) it doesn't necessarily follow that those are the same thing. If I told you Heavan was in El Dorado, what reason would you have to believe me, even if your belief in both things was absolute?

Roland St. Jude
2012-11-04, 04:38 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread seems to have trended into the morality of suicide and real life religious issues. Thread locked.