Stealing bits of Pathfinder....

[Ranting Fool]

I've been glancing at pathfinder and there are one or two things I wouldn't mind adding to my campaign and I was just wondering if any of you have had good/bad luck doing this.

Example:
Firearms. (It doesn't seem gamebraking and I'd put them in as a new tech)

Fighters in general :smallbiggrin:

Anything to look out for/watch

[Andreaz]

Frankly (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/), you should be able to incorporate nearly everything and profit from all of it.

The class design is better.
The spells are better.
The skill consolidation is better.
The updated feats are better or the same (here the only true "down" is that some nonmagical feats like the maneuver trees were spread thin. These you should avoid)
The maneuver system is better (sensibly easier to use. There will be disparities in who can trip who with the update).
Crafting is better.

[Krazzman]

Frankly (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/), you should be able to incorporate nearly everything and profit from all of it.

The class design is better.
The spells are better.
The skill consolidation is better.
The updated feats are better or the same (here the only true "down" is that some nonmagical feats like the maneuver trees were spread thin. These you should avoid)
The maneuver system is better (sensibly easier to use. There will be disparities in who can trip who with the update).
Crafting is better.

Class design is... not that much better but in a few ways more fun (at least for melee).
Spells are still what they were but a few have been toned down.
Skills are better in certain ways.
Feats... not really there are a few new ones that are great, a few new-old ones that are ok and a few new-old ones that are *beep* pick what you want. The feat on every odd level is also a great change.
Easier != better (at least not every time). The good thing is it is faster and easier to comprehend. If it is better lies in how your group plays.

[Andreaz]

Class design is... not that much better but in a few ways more fun (at least for melee).
Spells are still what they were but a few have been toned down.
Skills are better in certain ways.
Feats... not really there are a few new ones that are great, a few new-old ones that are ok and a few new-old ones that are *beep* pick what you want. The feat on every odd level is also a great change.
Easier != better (at least not every time). The good thing is it is faster and easier to comprehend. If it is better lies in how your group plays.

Easier does equate better here. Before you decide to complicate it yourself (specializing in one), it's just comparing two numbers and a d20 roll like the attack/ac dynamic. Faster too.

The spell tone-downs are precisely why I call them good. Look at the polymorph line, for example!

The feats are as they were in 3.5, with a few improvements and a couple bad ideas. I'm not going to compare something that did not change!

The class design is indeed better. They are still basically the same thing, but with less dead levels, more incentives to stay in a single class, with more variety of action in any given class.





I have a feeling this is relevant: At no point I am saying Pathfinder fixes 3.5. I'm just saying it runs better, simpler and more amusing.

[Ranting Fool]

Yes but have either of you tried to add only parts of pathfinder to an existing game rather then adopt the whole system?

[Andreaz]

Yes but have either of you tried to add only parts of pathfinder to an existing game rather then adopt the whole system?Yes, and they work just fine. You can pick just about anything there and port back to 3.5
With the additional commentary that nothing really goes bad.

[ThiagoMartell]

I started doing that and now I've moved all my games to Pathfinder. The PFSRD makes it so easy to find everything that I almost regret having spent so much money on 3.5 books, since they are mostly just gathering dust (well, aside from the DMGs).

[Absol197]

Most of what Andreaz is saying is spot on. Pathfinder makes for a greater amount of character customization, what with every class (just about) gaining additional class features that you get to choose from, feats every odd level, and cross-class skills no longer being pointless.

Now, full disclosure, just like Andreaz, I'm not saying that Pathfinder fixed all of the balance issues with 3.5. It's not for every group. But for those groups (like mine) that aren't super-optimizers, it's perfect.

Some of the up-sides:
--New classes give greater customization, and you almost always gain something every level;
--Feats every two levels increase customization;
--Intriguing new feats have been added, and some old feats have been given reworks to make them more useable (I'm particularly partial to the change of Power Attack, but I know that many people don't like it);
--The skill rework was drastically needed, and allows cross-class skills to be taken and still be useful, encourages spreading yoru skill points out, and skill consolidation makes individual skill points a bit more useful.
--Spell are basically the same, but some of the more blatant abuses have been nixed. Cantrips at-will both makes sense (to me, at least) and works well;
--The combat maneuvers system simplifies what was nearly a dozen-odd individual mechanics into one system, making it easier to remember and use. The system of feats relating thereto is iffy, and it might be best to use the standard 3.5 ones in this case.

I would also recommend stealing from SAGA Edition, and giving 2 ability points per 4 levels. This allows characters to continuously biuld their strongest ability, while also shoring up some of their others.

I think you can tell which I prefer, huh? I'd give the whole thing a try, and see what you think. It's not that hard to convert back and forth, and who knows? You might enjoy it more than you thought!


~Phoenix

EDIT: And to answer your other question, yes, I've tried just adding bits of Pathfinder to a 3.5 game. That's how I'm getting my team to switch over. I started with skills and combat maneuvers, and then have been adding a bit more every time.

[Starbuck_II]

There are dangers in PF, Feather Fall requires a Concentration check since you can only vast while air borne and thus falling rules require a Concentration check.
(you have to read falling rules to know this not the concentration rules...terrible place to put it)

DC 21 isn't easy at low levels. Luckily, you only have to roll if casting on self since the concentration rules reference you moving.

[Suddo]

Frankly (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/), you should be able to incorporate nearly everything and profit from all of it.

The class design is better.
The spells are better.
The skill consolidation is better.
The updated feats are better or the same (here the only true "down" is that some nonmagical feats like the maneuver trees were spread thin. These you should avoid)
The maneuver system is better (sensibly easier to use. There will be disparities in who can trip who with the update).
Crafting is better.

Ugh, you shouldn't make blanket and simple statements its almost as if you want a flame war.

Any ways Pathfinder has some great options that are all easily convertible into 3.5e this can be from taking nerf polymorph to a simple feat you like. The only thing you might run into is the skill system being different which is a pretty easy hurtle to jump.

[Talya]

Just be sure not to go with the Pathfinder bard. Damnit... 3.5's bard was already at the perfect balance point with WotC splatbooks, and Pathfinder goes and nerfs them into oblivion.

[Amnestic]

Nothing wrong with taking bits and pieces of Pathfinder - some of them (feat/2 levels for example) are basically just houserules I've used prior to PF release anyway.

[ericgrau]

That again? Move/swift action singing is an order of magnitude better than all day singing. 99% of fights aren't that long, and it would be a waste of actions to maintain music past the free 5 rounds even if they were.


I would steal the CMB/CMD stats but not necessarily the specific maneuver rules nor necessarily dex to CMD & PF size modifiers (but use both if you use 1). It is simpler to have a single modifier.
I would take advantage of the new classes, feats, spells and other material, treating them like 3.5 splatbooks. Simply because new options are fun. Like splatbooks you might not allow everything, but you could use a great deal.
I wouldn't bother with all the little system tweaks. They don't do all that much, I'm not sure I agree with them and there's a laundry list of them. I can see why they're often compared to house rules.
I love the concept behind ACF's but in practice they seem to invite or even require comboriffic min-maxing. Not for infinite loops but simply to keep up with the power creep. Alternate feats in particular are dip fuel. What might work would be allowing a select few. Like other power creep it works fine if your entire group is experienced but otherwise it adds to the learning curve and increases the disparity between players.

[Ravens_cry]

I really like the Archetype system as opposed to pumping out base classes that do basically the same thing as another base class with some minor tweaks.
It just feels more elegant to this one.

[Kantolin]

I dislike pathfinder, and wouldn't have given it much attention had it not been for dreamscarred press's amazing psionic stuff. As is, the only pathfinder game I'd run would be an all-psionic one for this reason, as I really don't like most of it - 'pure' pathfinder games frustrate me.

Anyway though, I've done a lot of picking and choosing from pathfinder things to add to my 3.5 games, and it's generally worked very well. Heck, even a blanket 'You can use pathfinder or 3.5, whichever is more convienient to your purposes' is relatively fine - raises the power level bar a little, but it's probably not enough to change the optimization level of your game. If people were optimizing before, it's probably nothing new - and if they weren't, it's probably not a big deal anyway.

So... yes, you can pull from pathfinder and not have it upset things. The only headache you'll run into is if two people have the same feat from different locations and it does different things (Power attack, for example), but even that's more of a conceptual problem than a realistic one (As like... so what?)

[The Random NPC]

I've been glancing at pathfinder and there are one or two things I wouldn't mind adding to my campaign and I was just wondering if any of you have had good/bad luck doing this.

Example:
Firearms. (It doesn't seem gamebraking and I'd put them in as a new tech)

Fighters in general :smallbiggrin:

Anything to look out for/watch

FYI, 3.5 has Firearms in the DMG on pages 145-146.
Aside: I'd be fine with PF's Power Attack, if I could choose the level of penalty.

[Starbuck_II]

FYI, 3.5 has Firearms in the DMG on pages 145-146.
Aside: I'd be fine with PF's Power Attack, if I could choose the level of penalty.

3.5 Firearms have too long load time. They don't have misfire issue though.
PF fireams have alchemy vcapsules that lower loading time. Combine with Rapid shot and you have bow reloading time (free). Misfire is issue though.

[Talya]

That again? Move/swift action singing is an order of magnitude better than all day singing. 99% of fights aren't that long, and it would be a waste of actions to maintain music past the free 5 rounds even if they were.


On any given fight, my ideal bard would spend at least 3 daily uses of bardic music. (Inspire Courage, Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance). Try doing that with Pathfinder. Not to mention the nerfs to their spells.

Pathfinder did some things very right. This wasn't one of them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not really a PF fan, so I won't comment on most of the system. One of the things I did look into in-depth though was the fire-arm rules and the gunslinger class. They didn't really float my boat, but they should port into standard 3.5 pretty smoothly.

You'll have to either create a class-skill list or adopt PF's skill system to import the gunslinger class, though the former is a rather simple thing to do and I understand the latter is a common housrule in any case.

[ericgrau]

On any given fight, my ideal bard would spend at least 3 daily uses of bardic music. (Inspire Courage, Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance). Try doing that with Pathfinder. Not to mention the nerfs to their spells.

Pathfinder did some things very right. This wasn't one of them.

Spells are a better use of their actions. Haste is just as good and new better options like gallant inspiration and inspire heroics got added. In PF they can sing and cast in the same round which is more than twice as good.

By the time you sing the 3rd song your party won't even get much mileage out of it in 95% of fights. You're buffing the cleanup efforts. It's almost a waste of time to even bother with it.

It boils down to action economy. More buffs would be nice if they were always active, but they cost an action and there are better things you could do with your actions. On 95% of adventuring days you aren't limited by the number of things you can do you're limited by time so the extra uses beyond that time are 100% useless.

[Talya]

Spells are a better use of their actions. In PF they can sing and cast in the same round which is more than twice as good.

By the time you sing the 3rd song your party won't even get much mileage out of it in 95% of fights. You're buffing the cleanup efforts. It's almost a waste of time to even bother with it.

It boils down to action economy. More buffs would be nice if they were always active, but they cost an action and there are better things you could do with your actions. On 95% of adventuring days you aren't limited by the number of things you can do you're limited by time so the extra uses beyond that time are 100% useless.

So many ways around all of that...

Melodic Spellcasting.
Harmonizing weapon (preferably on a crystal echoblade).
Song of the White raven.

You're a melee monster, who's singing two songs all day if need be, AND can cast spells without stopping.

[ericgrau]

So 3.5 has more splatbook options than PF for bard... and all classes. What else is new? Every splatbook tweaked 3.5 class is way better.

The core class itself got mega-buffed.

More on topic if you use PF classes I'd use them for all classes because they all got buffed a bit.

[Talya]

As I said...


3.5's bard was already at the perfect balance point with WotC splatbooks, and Pathfinder goes and nerfs them into oblivion.

The 3.5 splatbooks work in PF...but bardic music being by round rather than by use hurts them hard.

[Starbuck_II]

So 3.5 has more splatbook options than PF for bard... and all classes. What else is new? Every splatbook tweaked 3.5 class is way better.

The core class itself got mega-buffed.

More on topic if you use PF classes I'd use them for all classes because they all got buffed a bit.

The only Buff Bards got was spells/day are higher (1st level spells at first) and better HD (D8).