Reserve feats and "Available to cast"

[Drakhanis]

Does a prepared caster's ability to spontaneously cast certain spells mean that they have those spells available to cast?

I'm looking specifically at the "summon Elemental" reserve feat from complete mage, as well as the Touch of Healing reserve feat from complete champion. And I'm talking about the Druid and the cleric.

Since a druid can spontaneously cast "Summon Nature's Ally" as long as he/she has a spell of 4th or 5th level they can "lose" to do so, does the druid have the ability to power the Summon Elemental feat? The question is the same with Good Clerics (since evil and some neutral clerics spontaneously cast inflict spells) and the Touch of Healing feat, respectively.

My interpretation of the rules is yes, but at the same time, those specific spells are outside the normal "style" of druids and clerics, both being preparation casters. even if the answer is no, it's a relatively minor price to pay to have 1 spell slot devoted to your "fuel" spell to use the reserve feats. But in trying to maximize the effectiveness of a specific build I'm working on, I was curious if someone better at interpretations than myself had any opinions.

Thanks in advance!

[Twilightwyrm]

I would say that does work, specifically because the subcategory of feats requires that the spell be "available to cast", which healing spells or Summon Nature's Ally spells are for the Cleric and Druid respectively, at all times in the same manner as a sorcerer, meaning at least for the purposes of these two spell types, the Cleric/Druid is treated as a spontaneous caster. This is, I believe, within the spirit of the whole "available to cast" clause at least.

[Absol197]

Technically, I would have to say, "no." A spontaneous caster has a bunch of spell slots that aren't expended, and she can put any spell she knows into any of those slots at any time. A prepared caster, on the other hand, all his slots are already filled.

That said, however, as a DM I wouldn't see a problem with it. The spell isn't technically "available," but they can still cast it, so I'd let it fuel the Reserve feat.

I typically also houserule that clerics don't get the extra domain slot at each level, and instead can spontaneously cast their domain spells in addition to whichever energy spell they can cast, so let that be a guide to how applicable my thoughts on the matter are :smalltongue:


~Phoenix~

[tyckspoon]

It is your character's turn. Could you, right now, use your character's action to cast Summon Nature's Ally/a Cure spell using one of the character's slots (ie, not from a magic item?) If the answer is yes, then you have that spell available to cast and you can use a related reserve feat. Whether it's a prepared or spontaneous casting is irrelevant.

[dextercorvia]

Actually, under the main heading of Reserve Feats they spell out what they mean by available to cast. I see know exception for cleric spontaneous casting.


A spellcaster who prepares spells each day (such as a
wizard) must have an appropriate spell prepared and not yet
cast that day. If the character has more than one appropriate
spell prepared and uncast, she gains the benefit only from the
highest-level spell; she can't gain multiple benefits, or stack
benefits, by preparing more than one appropriate spell.

A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as
a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at
least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher. If
the character has more than one appropriate spell known, he
gains the benefit only from the highest-level spell for which
he has an unused spell slot of that level or higher.
If a spellcaster has spells from more than one class,

If you are relying on your ability to cast it spontaneously, you have to have an unused spell slot.

[Diarmuid]

The RAW is pretty clear.

Are you a prepared caster?

If so, you must have a spell slot devoted to an appropriate spell.

Are you not a prepared caster?

If so, you must have a spell on your spells known list of the appropriate level and a spell slot of that level or higher available.

Clerics and Druids are prepared casters. Yes, they have a limited ability to spontaneously cast some spells, but that does not classify them as non-prepared casters.

[sdream]

I'm all for taking CoDzilla down a peg, but demanding they specifically memorize one slot for a reserve feat is a poor way to do it.

They may not be commonly referred to as "spontaneous spellcasters" but their summons and cure/cause are referred to as "spontaneous casting".

If they have spontaneous casting available with a spell slot of level 3, than they are just as much a spontaneous caster as someone who multiclassed and has some spontaneous slots, and some prepared slots.

[dextercorvia]

I'm all for taking CoDzilla down a peg, but demanding they specifically memorize one slot for a reserve feat is a poor way to do it.

They may not be commonly referred to as "spontaneous spellcasters" but their summons and cure/cause are referred to as "spontaneous casting".

If they have spontaneous casting available with a spell slot of level 3, than they are just as much a spontaneous caster as someone who multiclassed and has some spontaneous slots, and some prepared slots.

And by my reading they qualify, but only if they leave an open slot.

[animewatcha]

Here is another way of asking it. Would you allow cleric/druid to allow the 'spontaneous casting feature' to allow them to take and power Versatile Caster.

[dextercorvia]

Here is another way of asking it. Would you allow cleric/druid to allow the 'spontaneous casting feature' to allow them to take and power Versatile Caster.

Absolutely.

The problem isn't that they aren't spontaneous casters (they are). It is that Reserve Feats spell out the mechanism for spontaneous casters. They are required to leave a spell slot of the appropriate level open.

[candycorn]

A lot of these interpretations hinge on what a "used" spell slot is.

Is it one without a spell prepared in it? Or one that has not yet been cast?

My thoughts would lean towards the latter. After all, since sorcerors cannot prepare spells in their slots (by default), it would scarcely make sense to refer to their slots as unused only if they hadn't memorized.

Therefore, I would say that a druid is a prepared caster, and could qualify to use a reserve feat provided he has the spell memorized.

In addition, the druid is a spontaneous caster, and could qualify provided he has a spell slot which is currently usable to cast a qualifying spell.

It's not the only interpretation, but it is consistent with the rules.

[LordBlades]

The RAW is pretty clear.

Are you a prepared caster?

If so, you must have a spell slot devoted to an appropriate spell.

Are you not a prepared caster?

If so, you must have a spell on your spells known list of the appropriate level and a spell slot of that level or higher available.

Clerics and Druids are prepared casters. Yes, they have a limited ability to spontaneously cast some spells, but that does not classify them as non-prepared casters.

Citation needed.

Honestly, I doubt you'll find anything anywhere in the rules that disallows a class that possesses a class feature named 'Spontaneous Casting' from counting as a spontaneous caster.

By RAW, as dextercorvia said, a Cleric/Druid qualifies for using that reserve feat either by preparing the spell in question or by leaving a slot of the appropriate level unused.

[Ashtagon]

My understanding of the rules is that the character would be able to qualify for those feats thanks to the limited spontaneous casting class features.

Generally, my take is that is the character could begin casting the spell on the next round if unimpeded and in an appropriate environment, then it is available to cast.

[candycorn]

Absolutely.

The problem isn't that they aren't spontaneous casters (they are). It is that Reserve Feats spell out the mechanism for spontaneous casters. They are required to leave a spell slot of the appropriate level open.

No, it requires they have an unused spell slot.

How does one use a spell slot? They cast a spell. That's how sorcerors do it. That's how Favored Souls do it. That's how every spontaneous caster uses a spell slot.

Therefore, until they cast a spell, I'd lean towards "the slot's unused".

[JBento]

I'd like to point out a Druid doesn't count as a spontaneous caster, at least for the purposes of [Reserve] feats. You see, a Druid can't actually turn an empty spell slot into a SNA, he must "lose" an available spell of that level. So, regardless, he must prepare spells, and therefore falls into the first paragraph of the quoted text.

HOWEVER, for the same reason, every spell a Druid prepares can be a SNA, and is, therefore, an appropriate spell to fuel Summon Elemental.

I'd rule that as long as the Druid as a prepared spell of that level, he can count it as a SNA spell for the purposes of [Reserve] feats. The same logic applies to Clerics and healing spells.

[Diarmuid]

Citation needed.

Honestly, I doubt you'll find anything anywhere in the rules that disallows a class that possesses a class feature named 'Spontaneous Casting' from counting as a spontaneous caster.

By RAW, as dextercorvia said, a Cleric/Druid qualifies for using that reserve feat either by preparing the spell in question or by leaving a slot of the appropriate level unused.


Spells: A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. A cleric must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).


Spells: A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time.

Citation provided.


I'd rule that as long as the Druid as a prepared spell of that level, he can count it as a SNA spell for the purposes of [Reserve] feats. The same logic applies to Clerics and healing spells.

While that is how you would rule it, due to the Reserve Feat's wording on how it applies to Prepared vs Spontaneous casters that's your houserule.

[LordBlades]

Citation provided.


You still haven't provided an actual rules quote that disallows casters that prepare can prepare spells but can also cast a few spells spontaneously from counting as 'spontaneous casters'.

[JBento]

I might be a little dumb this morning, and that may be why, but I can't see how the rules text you quoted invalidates what I said. I fully agree that Druids and Clerics count as prepared casters (especially because they must prepare a spell to convert it and can't do it off an empty slot).

The thing is that, if you're a Druid (assuming no ACFs), every spell you prepare is an SNA in potentia.

EDIT to respond to Lord of Blades: note that a Druid "prepares spells each day" and thus falls into the first paragrpah of the quoted rules text for [Reserve] feats.

[Talya]

Druids and Clerics are both prepared spellcasters and spontaneous spellcasters. If you can cast any spell spontaneously, you are a spontaneous spellcaster for that spell. If the reserve feat in question relies on Summon Nature's Ally or a Cure/Inflict spell that the character in question can cast spontaneously, then having any unused (which means uncast, not necessarily unoccupied) spell slot of the appropriate level allows them to use the reserve feat.

[JBento]

Slight correction: an unused spell slot can't power [Reserve] feats if you're a cleric or druid, since they can't actually turn it into a spell.

[dextercorvia]

Druids and Clerics are both prepared spellcasters and spontaneous spellcasters. If you can cast any spell spontaneously, you are a spontaneous spellcaster for that spell. If the reserve feat in question relies on Summon Nature's Ally or a Cure/Inflict spell that the character in question can cast spontaneously, then having any unused (which means uncast, not necessarily unoccupied) spell slot of the appropriate level allows them to use the reserve feat.

I didn't carefully enough consider the use of 'unused'. I'm going to go back on what I said earlier. I believe this to be correct.

[Palanan]

I think Talya's clarification should be the standard reference whenever this comes up.

:smalltongue:

[candycorn]

I think Talya's clarification should be the standard reference whenever this comes up.

:smalltongue:

Which is pretty much identical to my post, 8 hours earlier? :smalltongue:

[Diarmuid]

If you're happy with rules that you "think" are correct that's fine.

The general consensus I've found on this board is that when answering a question, it's always safest to refer to everything per RAW unless otherwise specificed.

As the rules are written per the quote I presented, clerics (and druids, they have a similar desciption in their spells section) are considered "prepared spellcasters". Whether they have the ability to spontaneously cast spells as a special class feature does not make them "spontaneous casters".

You're more than welcome to let them use Touch of Healing without having an appropriate spell memorized and I'll even agree that it's not going to break the game, but by strict RAW between the Cleric class description and the wording of the Reserve Feat description, they must have the appropriate spell memorized.

Yes it's a strict ruling, but that's what RAW is. Strictly adhering the to word as it's written with no interpretation.

[dextercorvia]

Geeyaw! I can't believe I'm going to change my mind twice in a discussion on the internet.

I was focused on the meaning of unused before, but I didn't stop to see that they didn't call it out as prepared and spontaneous (a cleric is both), but those who have to prepare, and those who don't have to prepare.

Since, as it was pointed out above, a cleric can't leave a spell slot open to spontaneously cast a cure/inflict spell, and the text that Diarmuid quoted earlier, Clerics must prepare their spells in advance.

To reiterate, whether or not they spontaneously cast, Clerics and Druids must prepare their spells in advance. That means that the entire paragraph that begins, "A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells" does not apply to them.

[olentu]

Huh, do druids and clerics technically know spells.

[Diarmuid]

I dont see any references to "Spells Known" in the Reserve Feat section for Prepared Spellcasters.

What's the context for your question?

[olentu]

I dont see any references to "Spells Known" in the Reserve Feat section for Prepared Spellcasters.

What's the context for your question?

Oh just wondering how the people arguing for spontaneous qualification work out this question. It is not important if one is arguing for prepared qualification.

[mattie_p]

Since, as it was pointed out above, a cleric can't leave a spell slot open to spontaneously cast a cure/inflict spell, and the text that Diarmuid quoted earlier, Clerics must prepare their spells in advance.

They can, indirectly. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineSpellSelectionandPreparatio n):


A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once. However, the character’s mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.

Same restrictions as a wizard. In other words, leave a spell slot open, cannot spontaneously cast Cure/SNA. Pray for a few minutes to fill the slot, now they can spontaneously cast those spells.


EDIT:

Huh, do druids and clerics technically know spells.

Good catch, olentu. I they cast off of their lists (p180, PHB) but I don't think per RAW they know spells, at least per the SRD and the PHB. Time for the dysfunctional rules collection.

[JBento]

I think it depends on how you define "know spells." "Known Spells" doesn't appear anywhere for divine casters, I think;

HOWEVER

The Divine Spells section of the srd says "Each time [a character who can cast divine spells] receives a new level of divine spells, he or she learns new spells of that level automatically."

Though the expression "spells known" doesn't appear, I think it's safe to assume that if you learn a spell, you know it.

[olentu]

I think it depends on how you define "know spells." "Known Spells" doesn't appear anywhere for divine casters, I think;

HOWEVER

The Divine Spells section of the srd says "Each time [a character who can cast divine spells] receives a new level of divine spells, he or she learns new spells of that level automatically."

Though the expression "spells known" doesn't appear, I think it's safe to assume that if you learn a spell, you know it.

Ah but then we are outside the rules and at that point the whole discussion doesn't really matter.

[candycorn]

If you're happy with rules that you "think" are correct that's fine.

The general consensus I've found on this board is that when answering a question, it's always safest to refer to everything per RAW unless otherwise specificed.

As the rules are written per the quote I presented, clerics (and druids, they have a similar desciption in their spells section) are considered "prepared spellcasters". Whether they have the ability to spontaneously cast spells as a special class feature does not make them "spontaneous casters".

You're more than welcome to let them use Touch of Healing without having an appropriate spell memorized and I'll even agree that it's not going to break the game, but by strict RAW between the Cleric class description and the wording of the Reserve Feat description, they must have the appropriate spell memorized.

Yes it's a strict ruling, but that's what RAW is. Strictly adhering the to word as it's written with no interpretation.

No, that's not. There are no classifications for "prepared caster" and "spontaneous caster" within the text for reserve feats. It's not even listed in an either/or fashion.

"A spellcaster who prepares spells each day" - first group.
"A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells" - second group.

They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, under a strict reading of the rules. So a spellcaster who can cast by preparing spells can qualify under the first. If that caster also doesn't need to prepare spells in? Great, he can also qualify under the second. How they accomplish that is irrelevant.

Nonetheless, under the most strict interpretation (which is what you are advocating), all casters which prepare spells qualify for both, as no character NEEDS to prepare spells. Arguably, they cannot cast under that situation, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not necessary. In fact, druids are better equipped than most casters to successfully adventure under such conditions.

I mean, we could say that it really means "who does not need to prepare spells to cast them"... But that's not what the rules you're supporting say. By the strict RAW, no caster needs to prepare spells. Therefore, any caster may use a reserve feat, provided they "know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher."

Now, if we want to step away from STRICT RAW, there's room for debate... However, I'm afraid that if we're reading the precise text, it doesn't support your view.

The common consensus I've seen on this board for "knowing" a spell, for casters which prepare, is: "Able to access and prepare X spell normally, following the rules for preparing the spell by the ability which grants spellcasting".

That means if it's in a wizard's spellbook, the wizard has a high enough level spell slot, and a high enough requisite ability score, and is not from a banned school, they know it. If it's on a druid's list, the druid has a high enough level spell slot, and a high enough requisite ability score, they know it.

[JBento]

You can know a spell without being able to cast it.

For instance, a Wizard's spells known are all those has in his spell book, and, e.g., a lvl5 Wizard can certainly scribe a lvl6 spell into his spellbook, even though he won't have a slot for it for another 5 levels.

The definition you presented would, additionally, present issues should a caster have his casting ability score reduced.

A Cleric's or Druid's spells known, or at least what I can determine from the Divine Spells section of the srd, are all those on their list that they are of sufficient level to cast.

[olentu]

The common consensus I've seen on this board for "knowing" a spell, for casters which prepare, is: "Able to access and prepare X spell normally, following the rules for preparing the spell by the ability which grants spellcasting".

That means if it's in a wizard's spellbook, the wizard has a high enough level spell slot, and a high enough requisite ability score, and is not from a banned school, they know it. If it's on a druid's list, the druid has a high enough level spell slot, and a high enough requisite ability score, they know it.

Hmm, well that is an interesting choice.


You can know a spell without being able to cast it.

For instance, a Wizard's spells known are all those has in his spell book, and, e.g., a lvl5 Wizard can certainly scribe a lvl6 spell into his spellbook, even though he won't have a slot for it for another 5 levels.

The definition you presented would, additionally, present issues should a caster have his casting ability score reduced.

A Cleric's or Druid's spells known, or at least what I can determine from the Divine Spells section of the srd, are all those on their list that they are of sufficient level to cast.

Ah, now why would you believe that wizards know all the spells in their spellbooks. I mean, if we're just going by what seems reasonable from bits and pieces of spellcasting descriptions why should wizards get a pass.

[JBento]

Ah, now why would you believe that wizards know all the spells in their spellbooks. I mean, if we're just going by what seems reasonable from bits and pieces of spellcasting descriptions why should wizards get a pass.

Um, because that's what "Spells Known" means to a Wizard? It's in my spellbook, therefore I know it.

I'm not exactly sure WHY you think that's a pass anyway; if anyone gets a pass it's classes like druids, clerics and war mages, who automatically know all the spells in their lists that they're high-level enough to cast.

[olentu]

Um, because that's what "Spells Known" means to a Wizard? It's in my spellbook, therefore I know it.

I'm not exactly sure WHY you think that's a pass anyway; if anyone gets a pass it's classes like druids, clerics and war mages, who automatically know all the spells in they're lists that they're high-level enough to cast.

That was just a bit of particular phrasing. What I meant is that if you are going to claim that your rule you made up is better then someone's rule they made up you should probably give reason for your claim.

[JBento]

I didn't make it up, that's actually the rule. :smallconfused:

No, wait, scratch that, I was being too RESTRICTIVE on Wizards' spells known.

From the spellcraft skill:

DC 15+spell level - learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll (Wizard only).

Since you can only copy a spell into your spell book, after learning it, not only do your spells known consist of all the ones in your spellbook(s), you also know every spell you have access to and passed the Spellcraft check (which, for level-appropriate spells, requires you to roll about an 8 in a d20 at level 1 and only get easier form there).

Also, yes, this means that if you find a scroll of Heal or similar spell you want from any other list, knowing it is a trivial Spellcraft check away by RAW. Have fun, kids, because you didn't break the game enough up till now. :smallsigh:

[olentu]

I didn't make it up, that's actually the rule. :smallconfused:

No, wait, scratch that, I was being too RESTRICTIVE on Wizards' spells known.

From the spellcraft skill:

DC 15+spell level - learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll (Wizard only).

Since you can only copy a spell into your spell book, after learning it, not only do your spells known consist of all the ones in your spellbook(s), you also know every spell you have access to and passed the Spellcraft check (which, for level-appropriate spells, requires you to roll about an 8 in a d20 at level 1 and only get easier form there).

Also, yes, this means that if you find a scroll of Heal or similar spell you want from any other list, knowing it is a trivial Spellcraft check away by RAW. Have fun, kids, because you didn't break the game enough up till now. :smallsigh:

Okay, to clarify when you say that it is actually the rule do you mean the real actual bit of rules text that defines what a known spell is?

[JBento]

As far as I'm aware, the only place where "Spells Known" is actually mentioned in core is in the sorcerer's and bard's class description.

However, I'm pretty sure that once you learn a learn a spell, you know it, in the same way that you kill something if you put it at -10 hp or below even though the rules never say you do this.

Unless, of course, you're advocating that a wizard doesn't know any spells :smallconfused:

[olentu]

As far as I'm aware, the only place where "Spells Known" is actually mentioned in core is in the sorcerer's and bard's class description.

However, I'm pretty sure that once you learn a learn a spell, you know it, in the same way that you kill something if you put it at -10 hp or below even though the rules never say you do this.

Unless, of course, you're advocating that a wizard doesn't know any spells :smallconfused:

Not "spells known" but "known spell" and I'll take that to mean you are not talking about that definition. But anyway it is more about why the rule you have constructed should be taken over another construction. You seemed to be claiming that the rule given by candycorn was worse then your rule because it did not cover some holes. However you merely stated that these problems exist without backing them up with something. And so I was bringing up the question of why you claim the problems exist. I could guess as to your reasoning but I would prefer to hear it directly.

And no I am not advocating for wizards not knowing spells but neither am I currently advocating for them knowing spells. If I was doing that I would be trying harder to direct the discussion to what the rules say instead of asking questions about the various rules extensions people have come up with. Though, if you want to have that conversation I would be up for it.

[JBento]

Ah, I think I finally understood your intent. :smallsmile: Very well, an example:

A lvl14 Sorcerer has a player who didn't use Int as his dump stat and picked up Greater Shadow Conjuration. Let us, for the purpose of this discussion, assume that he has a Charisma score of 17 (i.e., the minimum required to learn GSC).

I believe there shall be no dissent if I say that his Sorcerer does, in fact, know GSC.

Let us now imagine that the aforementioned Sorcerer gets hit by a Charisma-damaging spell or other effect. Following candycorn's rule, what happens then? Does he no longer know the spell? If he doesn't, does he get it back? When? A Sorcerer only gets more spells known when he levels up, so is his number of spells known smaller than it should be for his level? But it can't be, because the rules state that that number is fixed. Is he forced to trade GSC as a spell known for a lower level spell, forever gimping the character (because when trading spells known at level up the spell level must remain constant)?

I think it's far less messy to determine that the ability score of 10+spell level is only relevant when learning the spell (and casting it, of course), as stated in the Spells section of the class description (and even then, it fails to account for those ocasions when the character is Charisma-damaged when level-up time comes around).

I look forward to continuing this discussion tomorrow, as it's already 4am here :smalleek:

Also, I keep having to resist the urge of typing *known*... ah, Dakkon, I miss you so... but not as much as I miss Annah and Morte >>

[olentu]

Ah, I think I finally understood your intent. :smallsmile: Very well, an example:

A lvl14 Sorcerer has a player who didn't use Int as his dump stat and picked up Greater Shadow Conjuration. Let us, for the purpose of this discussion, assume that he has a Charisma score of 17 (i.e., the minimum required to learn GSC).

I believe there shall be no dissent if I say that his Sorcerer does, in fact, know GSC.

Let us now imagine that the aforementioned Sorcerer gets hit by a Charisma-damaging spell or other effect. Following candycorn's rule, what happens then? Does he no longer know the spell? If he doesn't, does he get it back? When? A Sorcerer only gets more spells known when he levels up, so is his number of spells known smaller than it should be for his level? But it can't be, because the rules state that that number is fixed. Is he forced to trade GSC as a spell known for a lower level spell, forever gimping the character (because when trading spells known at level up the spell level must remain constant)?

I think it's far less messy to determine that the ability score of 10+spell level is only relevant when learning the spell (and casting it, of course), as stated in the Spells section of the class description (and even then, it fails to account for those ocasions when the character is Charisma-damaged when level-up time comes around).

I look forward to continuing this discussion tomorrow, as it's already 4am here :smalleek:

Also, I keep having to resist the urge of typing *known*... ah, Dakkon, I miss you so... but not as much as I miss Annah and Morte >>

Hmm, I was more wondering about your reasoning behind the "rule" you made about wizards. Sorcerers, bards, etc. aren't really applicable as the "rule" you objected to was said to apply only to casters that prepare spells. I could think of a few places you might be deriving that particular houserule from, but I can't say for sure what it is.

[Drakhanis]

Thanks for all your input, folks.

After reading your comments, I looked back through the Druid and Sorcerer entries, and noticed the following distinction:

Druids: can lose a prepared spell to cast SNA.
Sorcerers: cast all spells without needing to prepare them.

The "flavor" of Clerics, Druids, and variants that let classes drop prepared spells for specific spontaneous spells seems to be the case that they are using spell energy that they already have (in the form of a prepared spell). As some of you pointed out, there needs to be a spell *in* the slot in order for those classes to convert it into the appropriate spell (CW for Clerics, SNA for Druids, etc).

In fact, without a feat (Alacritous Cogitation) a wizard can't do anything with an empty slot. no prepared spellcaster can. at best, they can leave some slots open to prepare specific spells situationally, assuming they have to time to do so. So prepared casters fill their spell slots first, then at a later time, they cast those spells. certain casters can, at the time of casting the prepared spell, convert that spell energy and instead cast a specific spell instead (Druids, Clerics, other variants).

True Spontaneous casters have empty slots that they fill and use at the time they cast the spell they want to cast. So for the purposes of Reserve feats, "available to cast" means two different things. A prepared spellcaster has no spell "available to cast" from an empty slot, because they need a spell in the slot to do anything with the slot (other than prepare a spell...). They don't have the spell energy to power a reserve feat from an empty spell slot. Spontaneous casters, by their very nature, have spell power while their slots are empty.


So the question then is this: if a druid or a cleric could convert *any* of their prepared spells into a SNA or Cure/inflict spell, then logically, couldn't you make the argument that they have those spells available to cast as long as they have *any* spell prepared at the appropriate level? From what I've been reading, I feel the answer is a no, and here's why:

THe text in the rules for reserve feats says "Spells that don't have a descriptor (such as Summon Nature's Ally) can't be used to gain the primary benefit of a reserve feat. Now, all summon spells are always Conjuration Summoning. However, they also pick up descriptors like Evil, Lwful, etc. depending on what you summon with them.

To use a more direct example, assume that a sorcerer takes the feat Energy Substitution and chooses Cold. This sorcerer could, in theory, cast a cold fireball. That's a 3rd level cold spell *when he casts it*. until he casts it and applies that feat, Fireball is still considered an Evocation [Fire] spell. Which means that this sorcerer could not use his Cold fireball to power the reserve feat "Winter's Blast" despite the fact that he could cast an evocation [Cold] spell at any time (by using the feat).

So applying that to the Druid/Cleric problem, Clerics and Druids can spontaneously cast specific spells. However, those spontaneous spells logically fall into the category of "no descriptor until cast."

So, in closing, after looking at all of your comments and taking a closer look at the RAW for both the spontaneous casting abilities of Druids and Clerics as well as Sorcerers, and the rules for Reserve Feats, I myself am leaning towards "Regardless of being able to drop a spell to cast those specific spells, if they don't prepare them in at least 1 spell slot, they can't power the reserve feat."

[TuggyNE]

To use a more direct example, assume that a sorcerer takes the feat Energy Substitution and chooses Cold. This sorcerer could, in theory, cast a cold fireball. That's a 3rd level cold spell *when he casts it*. until he casts it and applies that feat, Fireball is still considered an Evocation [Fire] spell. Which means that this sorcerer could not use his Cold fireball to power the reserve feat "Winter's Blast" despite the fact that he could cast an evocation [Cold] spell at any time (by using the feat).

Interestingly, I have seen precisely the opposite conclusion with a very similar example: there are people who would interpret reserve feats such that a sorcerer with Energy Substitution would, in fact, be able to power the corresponding reserve feat. Or, for that matter, a sorcerer with Heighten Spell and a first-level spell known with the right descriptor would be able to power the reserve feat at maximum.

I don't have any particular opinion on which is in fact correct, but thought I'd mention that your reasoning is not universally shared.

[JBento]

I side with Drakhanis on the metamagic point. A Sorcerer that knows Energy SUbstitution and Fireball doesn't have a [Cold] spell available to cast, he has a [Fire] spell available to cast that, upon casting, he can turn into [Cold] spell.

Note that prepared casters are the other way around: if a Wizard prepares an Energy Substituted (Cold) Fireball, he has a [Cold] spell available to cast (but not a [Fire] spell)