Getting Dual 9ths with the following restrictions

[Bakkan]

Hello all.

As a thought experiment, I wanted to see whether it is possible to get 9th level casting in two classes under the following restrictions:

Restriction Set 1

The two classes we will be advancing are Wizard and Archivist (from Hroes of Horror). We wish to achieve 17 levels of spellcasting in each class so that we are legitimately casting 9th levels spells form 9th level slots.
Versatile Spellcaster is ruled conservatively, that is, it only works with spell slots from spontaneous casters (so it won't help us).
The Inspire Greatness + Psychic Reformation trick is unavailable.


Restriction Set 2

All of Restriction Set 1
No Sanctum Spell early entry qualification
No Flaws


Proposed Builds!

Doesn't Work:

Precocious Wildrunner
Race: Elf
Feats: Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane)
Build: Wizard 1/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 5/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Heirophant 10[/b] (Races of the Wild)
by Bakkan

Doesn't work: this build gets Wizard 16 and Archivist 18 casting.

Fochlucan Theurgy
Race: Any
Feats: Sanctum Spell, Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) (Magic of Incarnum)
Build: Wizard 1/Archivist 1/Druid 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Fochlucan Lyrist 7 (Complete Adventurer)
By Suddo

Doesn't work: requires Sanctum Spell early entry, needs a way to make Perform a class skill (Fochlucan Lyrist requires 13 ranks), needs bardic knowledge ability for Fochlucan Lyrist.

Bamboo Spirit Magic
Race: Bamboo Spirit Folk (Oriental Adventures)
Feats: Any
Build: Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Heirophant 10
By docnessuno

Doesn't work under a very strict reading since the Arcane Heirophant requires the trackelss step class feature and this build gets it from race.


Works under Restriction Set 1

Sanctum Wildrunner
Race: Elf
Feats: Sanctum Spell (Complete Arcane)
Build: Wizard 1/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 6/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Heirophant 10
By 2xMachina

Works, requires Sanctum Spell early entry.

Earthy Wildrunner
Race: Elf
Feats: Earth Sense, Earth Spell (Races of Stone), Heighten Spell
Build: Wizard 1/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 6/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Heirophant 10
By tyckspoon

Works if flaws are allowed, requires 13 Con and 13 Wis on an Elf (uses 13 points from a Point Buy unless using a Wild Elf, which gives a -2 Int, which will cost more to make up)


Works under Restriction Set 2

Illumian Power
Race: Illumian (Races of Destiny)
Feats: Improved Sigil (Krau) (Races of Destiny)
Build: Wizard 2/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Legacy Champion 6 (Weapons of Legacy)
By Bakkan with assistance from Biffoniacus_Furiou

Doesn't Work: this build gets Wizard 16 and Archivist 17 casting since Legacy Champion fails to advance at 1st and 6th level.
Works: Initial judgement was based on a misreading of Legacy Champion.

Bloodline Illumian-Powered Legacy Champion
Race: Illumian with any Minor Bloodline, pref Lycanthrope or Troll (Races of Destiny, UA/SRD)
Feat: Improved Sigil: Krau (Races of Destiny)
Build: Wizard 1/ (Bloodline 1)/ Archivist 1/ Mystic Theurge 8/ Legacy Champion 10
Casting: Wizard 17 at caster level 20, Archivist 17 at caster level 20
By Biffoniacus_Furiou

Works and has the advantage of having better casting at earlier levels than Illumian Power

[docnessuno]

Race: Elf
Feats: Precocious Apprentice
Build: Wizard 1/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Heirophant 10
This build also gets Wizard 16 and Archivist 17 casting.


Doesn't this build get 16/17 casting in 19 character levels?
Going MT 5 should give you 17/18.

[Bakkan]

Whoops, typo. Should be MT 5, will correct. That gives me, I believe, Archivist 18 (lose 1 for Wizard, 1 for Wildrunner) and Wizard 16 (lose 3 for Archivist, 1 for Wildrunner). Still no dual 9ths.

[docnessuno]

In that case, Bamboo spirit folk from OA should allow you to go:

Wiz 3 / Arch 3 / MT 4 / AH 10
for 17/17 casting

Wiz 1 / Arch 3 / MT 6 / AH 10, with Precocious apprentice.
For 17 / 19

Also i'd recomend the Academic priest feat to be fully Int-SAD

[2xMachina]

Maybe you can do
Wizard 1/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 6/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Heirophant 10?

[docnessuno]

Maybe you can do
Wizard 1/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 6/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Heirophant 10?

I don't see 2nd level divine spells in this build.

[tyckspoon]

Man, Wildrunner has obnoxious requirements for this kind of build, but.. can you just combine the two builds you thought of? Complete Mystic Theurge, and then take a level of Wildrunner -> Arcane Hierophant instead of going into Legacy Champion?

[Spuddles]

Can you use sanctum spell for early entry?

[2xMachina]

I don't see 2nd level divine spells in this build.

Whoops forgot the main ingredient.


Can you use sanctum spell for early entry?

[tyckspoon]

If flaws are allowed you can also use Earth Spell for your early entry, although the stat requirements are kind of a PITA for an Elf.

hmm.. does anybody know a prestige class that gives Rebuke Undead at first level? True Necromancer would make this pretty easy, but it's structured in a way that makes it a bit obnoxious to get into if you're not starting off with a Cleric or Dread Necromancer.

[docnessuno]

If flaws are allowed you can also use Earth Spell for your early entry, although the stat requirements are kind of a PITA for an Elf.

hmm.. does anybody know a prestige class that gives Rebuke Undead at first level? True Necromancer would make this pretty easy, but it's structured in a way that makes it a bit obnoxious to get into if you're not starting off with a Cleric or Dread Necromancer.

How does TN make it easy?
Lose 1 CL on both sides in the first TN levels (1/2)
Lose 1 CL on both sides in the following TN levels (6/7)
Need to gain both rebuke undead and the death domain, meaning probably 2 lost CLs or 1/1 lost CL

The easiest way is the bamboo spirit folk entry into AH.
Another metod is MT entry right after lvl3, requiring arcane AND divine early entry. doable, but that's top-cheese.

[roguemetal]

The Arcane Heirophant entry is the tough part.

What if you play a Bamboo Spirit Folk? They get trackless step as a racial ability I think. From OA. Then you should be able to go Wizard3/Archivist3/MysticTheurge4/ArcaneHierophant10

The 9th level builds I know work use Ur-Priest, Apostle of Peace, Sublime Chord, Druid-Wizard... but here's hoping to add one more to the list.

Edit: Clearly I don't respond fast enough for this forum judging by the two entries of this above me.

[tyckspoon]

How does TN make it easy?
...
Lose 1 CL on both sides in the following TN levels (6/7)


Because I forgot about the second dropped levels here, that's how :smallredface: True Necromancer's spell advancement chart is really overcrowded.

I was assuming Arcane Disciple: Death would count as 'Death domain access', which would leave Rebuke Undead as the major barrier to entry. If it doesn't, then TN probably isn't worth thinking about anyway unless you're willing to dip a level of Cleric.

[Namfuak]

Maybe I'm missing something because this hasn't been suggested yet, but shouldn't Southern Magician allow you to get into MT at third level (Technically second, but then you wouldn't be advancing Archivist)?

Race: Mulan Human
Feats: Precocious Apprentice, Southern Magician

Wizard 1/Archivist 1/MT X

Unfortunately I don't really know where to go from here, we could shapechange into an elf to get Wildrunner and go into Arcane Hierophant I suppose. I ought to mention that Bamboo Spirit Folk does not work as an entry for Arcane Hierophant because it requires Trackless Step as a class feature.

[dextercorvia]

Maybe I'm missing something because this hasn't been suggested yet, but shouldn't Southern Magician allow you to get into MT at third level (Technically second, but then you wouldn't be advancing Archivist)?

Race: Mulan Human
Feats: Precocious Apprentice, Southern Magician

Wizard 1/Archivist 1/MT X

Skill requirements.

[2xMachina]

Maybe I'm missing something because this hasn't been suggested yet, but shouldn't Southern Magician allow you to get into MT at third level (Technically second, but then you wouldn't be advancing Archivist)?

Race: Mulan Human
Feats: Precocious Apprentice, Southern Magician

Wizard 1/Archivist 1/MT X

Unfortunately I don't really know where to go from here, we could shapechange into an elf to get Wildrunner and go into Arcane Hierophant I suppose. I ought to mention that Bamboo Spirit Folk does not work as an entry for Arcane Hierophant because it requires Trackless Step as a class feature.

IIRC MT requires 3 previous lvls minimum due to skill restriction. Unless you do inspire greatness for extra skill points

[docnessuno]

Maybe I'm missing something because this hasn't been suggested yet, but shouldn't Southern Magician allow you to get into MT at third level (Technically second, but then you wouldn't be advancing Archivist)?

Race: Mulan Human
Feats: Precocious Apprentice, Southern Magician

Wizard 1/Archivist 1/MT X

Unfortunately I don't really know where to go from here, we could shapechange into an elf to get Wildrunner and go into Arcane Hierophant I suppose. I ought to mention that Bamboo Spirit Folk does not work as an entry for Arcane Hierophant because it requires Trackless Step as a class feature.

MT requires at least level 3 before entering to fufill skill ranks requirements, unless you are set to do some serious optimizing.

Entry at level 4 can be fufille in various ways.

Damn, swordsaged.

[Namfuak]

Skill requirements.

I completely forgot about that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Anybody up for a Dread necromancer/Raibow servant? It's not dual 9th spell slots, but it's dual 9th lists; cleric + DN.

Swap DN for Beguiler for just as much fun in a more social setting.

[Suddo]

If you can sanctum spell then:
Wiz 1/ Arch 1 / Druid 1 / MT 10 / Folchuran Lyricist 7
I think that works? You get evasion from Impulse boots via feats.

Edit: I believe Lyricist is the one that requires evasion and to speak druidic if I'm wrong replace it with the one that is.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you can sanctum spell then:
Wiz 1/ Arch 1 / Druid 1 / MT 10 / Folchuran Lyricist 7
I think that works? You get evasion from Impulse boots via feats.

Edit: I believe Lyricist is the one that requires evasion and to speak druidic if I'm wrong replace it with the one that is.

It's the right PrC, but I'm pretty sure you misspelled it. Not that I could do any better without opening CAd. :smalltongue:

[Suddo]

It's the right PrC, but I'm pretty sure you misspelled it. Not that I could do any better without opening CAd. :smalltongue:

I just copied it from The Urge to Theurge guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12337260).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Looked it up in the book. It's f-o-c-h-l-u-c-a-n lyrist. :smalltongue:

[Bakkan]

Okay, I've updated the OP with the proposed builds so far together with some comments about their legality. So far, the builds that work require at least one of:

Sanctum Spell early entry
Bamboo Spirit Folk's racial trackless step feature counting as the class feature of the same name
Flaws

Is there any way to accomplish the goal without using any of these components?

[Psyren]

Did anyone try bloodlines yet? Would those help?


Looked it up in the book. It's f-o-c-h-l-u-c-a-n lyrist. :smalltongue:

It's also online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2)

[Battleship789]

Did anyone try bloodlines yet? Would those help?

*snip*

No, as bloodlines only advance CL, not spells known/per day.

The Earthy Wildrunner build will work without flaws if WBL shenanigans are used to get the money to DCFS Elf Racial Weapon Proficiencies...

[Spuddles]

What about southern magician?

[Anthrowhale]

The Earthy Wildrunner build will work without flaws if WBL shenanigans are used to get the money to DCFS Elf Racial Weapon Proficiencies...

No WBL shenanigans are required. DCFS costs 4.9K for one feat, which is less than WBL at L4.

[Anthrowhale]

Under restriction set 2,

Archivist 10/Beholder Mage 1/Mystic Theurge 9

Use heighten spell + versatile spell for early entry. Use psionics to permanently switch bodies. Use Assume Supernatural ability (perhaps twice) to get the correct prereqs.

[God Imperror]

One thing that might interest you, or actually anyone is that fochlucan lyrist doesn't require druid levels, any "fallen" druid can teach druidic (or any druid can teach it and "fall"). Thus you can get bardic knowledge with that level, and also make perform a class feature with able learner if you go human.

In addition the arcane hierophant familiar companion class feature seems to require that you have an animal companion but not a familiar (if you actually have one you have to dismiss it), so the wizard ACF from unearthed arcana that trades away the familiar for an animal companion might be interesting.

If the bamboo spirit folk is on the table it works better with flaws, heighten spell + earth sense + earth spell. Allows Wizard 1 / Archivist 2 / Mystic Theurge 7 / Arcane Hierophant 10

The heighten spell + earth sense + earth spell can also be used as an early entry trick for humans (or other races that get a bonus feat at level 1, 2 or 3).

If no flaws, nor racial tricks, nor anything else is on the table...

Wizard 1 / Archivist 1 / Half elf paragon 1 / Mystic theurge 6 / Wildrunner 1 / Arcane Hierophant 10

Should get you 17th level wizard casting and 17th level archivist casting, so double 9s (under restriction set 2).

Feats are heighten spell (lvl 1), earth sense (lvl 3), earth spell (bonus), planar touchstone (catalogues of enlightment (arborea or travel)) (lvl 6) to get survival as a class skill, endurance (lvl 9).

[Arcanist]

Yarg, the main annoying factor in all of this is that most of the nice early entry tricks are gone already :smalltongue: and that we're required to use Wizard and Archivist...

Can I trade those two classes for Commoner/8? :smallamused: If so allow me to destroy the world :smalltongue:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can use Snow Elf from Frostburn for no Con penalty, and even throw on Dragonborn, which makes Earth Spell entry with a MT/Wildrunner/AH build a bit easier on pointbuy.


Bloodline levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) don't increase your character level, but they do increase your max skill ranks, caster level, and X-per-level class features. It's some extreme shenanigans that only belongs in TO, but it works under both sets of limitations. As an example, a (Class) 1 needs 1,000 XP to gain a level. If he goes (Class) 1/ Bloodline 1, he's still considered 1st level and needs to gain another 1,000 XP to gain another level. So with one Bloodline level you'll need only 1,000 XP more than normal to reach character level 20, assuming you didn't get extra XP for being a level behind the party at any point. If that's an issue, take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) for a 10% XP bonus.

Bloodline Illumian-Powered Legacy Champion
Race: Illumian with any Minor Bloodline, pref Lycanthrope or Troll (Races of Destiny, UA/SRD)
Feat: Improved Sigil: Krau (Races of Destiny)
Build: Wizard 1/ (Bloodline 1)/ Archivist 1/ Mystic Theurge 8/ Legacy Champion 10
Casting: Wizard 17 at caster level 20, Archivist 17 at caster level 20


EDIT:

Doesn't Work:
Illumian Power
Race: Illumian (Races of Destiny)
Feats: Improved Sigil (Krau) (Races of Destiny)
Build: Wizard 1/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Legacy Champion 7 (Weapons of Legacy)
Change that to Wizard 2/ Archivist 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ Legacy Champion 6 and it gets 17th level casting in both classes. Legacy Champion skips the 1st and 7th levels, not the 1st and 6th.