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View Full Version : Why is this never done to improve melee classes?



thirdkingdom
2012-10-31, 08:26 PM
So, I'm just asking out of curiousity why the following is never suggested as a solution to improve melee characters (in terms of combat ability). The old BECMI Rules Cyclopedia (that is Basic D&D, for all you whippersnappers) introduced a weapons mastery system that was quite good. It can be seen here (http://www.gratisgames.webspace.virginmedia.com/darkdungeons.html) in the free .pdf of Dark Dungeons (a free Rules Cyclopedia retro-clone, but called "weapon feats" instead of "weapon mastery").

Essentially, all characters get a number of weapon slots they can spend to purchase base proficiency in a weapon and, as they advance in level, can improve their proficiency. Fighters, of course, improve much more quickly. Each improvement increases the damage done by a weapon, allows the use of some nifty maneuvers (such as stun, parry, disarm, etc.), lowers the wielder's AC, etc. Different weapons are good at different things, of course, so it gives a reason to pick more obscure weapons.

Just curious to know if there was a reason other than not knowing about it that it is not brought up around here.

Techwarrior
2012-10-31, 08:53 PM
Short answer? They're feats now, and the Fighter still gets more of them.

Coidzor
2012-10-31, 09:03 PM
This bit of homebrew might be of interest. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217700)

There were a couple of spin-off threads as well.

Though, as has been said, a fair bit has been put into the feat system and some of it is just in the base combat maneuver system that everyone has default access to and which doesn't really change except for the size of the numbers getting thrown around.

Twilightwyrm
2012-11-01, 02:28 AM
Now I'll start by saying that I'm a firm believer that enough damage output can be as good, or better than, any save-or-die, or even many save-or-suck spells. This being said, this has never been the man problem people find with melee types; rather, the problem as lack of versatile problem solving (read: utility). While a barbarian or fighter may well be able to out-damage a wizard (may), they cannot generally create walls, dispel other magic, summon minions, breath underwater, change shape, divine information, teleport or any of several other things, with just their class abilities. The ability to do these thing, while perhaps not killing things as fast as some melee attackers, can allow these other classes to entirely bypass encounters, or at least create a decided advantage. With this in mind, upping damage isn't often enough, as damage is not the main problem (and not, as some here might tell you, a waste of time).

Just to Browse
2012-11-01, 03:28 AM
Effectively what you're saying is "why haven't people given fighters powers and damage boosts as they level in their class?"

I think the answer to that is "that's definitely happened I don't know what you're talking about".

lesser_minion
2012-11-01, 08:12 AM
As has already been said, the weapon proficiencies from older versions of D&D were re-imagined as feats for 3.x.

In any event, virtually any melee class can be built so that it deals 'enough' damage. Damage output probably needs to be reduced more than anything, probably in favour of attaching injury effects to attacks. That's not the problem.

For reference, direct damage spells are actually better than save-or-die spells, since a direct damage spell is effectively a save-or-die that also debuffs your opponent's save. The central issue with them is redundancy -- nearly anyone in the party can deal damage, and deal enough damage to kill things outright in one round. It's usually argued that casters have better things to do, like provide buffs and battlefield control.

Yitzi
2012-11-03, 09:52 PM
This being said, this has never been the man problem people find with melee types; rather, the problem as lack of versatile problem solving (read: utility). While a barbarian or fighter may well be able to out-damage a wizard (may), they cannot generally create walls, dispel other magic, summon minions, breath underwater, change shape, divine information, teleport or any of several other things, with just their class abilities. The ability to do these thing, while perhaps not killing things as fast as some melee attackers, can allow these other classes to entirely bypass encounters, or at least create a decided advantage. With this in mind, upping damage isn't often enough, as damage is not the main problem (and not, as some here might tell you, a waste of time).

While this is definitely true, I would like to add a caveat: If fighters (and I'll include barbarians in that) were able to vastly out-damage, out-survive, and generally wipe the floor with wizards when it came to combat, I think that the wizards' greater utility ability would not be a problem, as each would have an area of superiority. The problem isn't that wizards have utility and fighters don't, but that wizards have utility in addition to being competitive with fighters in the fighters' own area of expertise.