3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

[Chained Birds]

Greetings Playgrounders,

I was just wondering what everyone else thought about the 3rd party base class stuff that can be found on the Pathfinder SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes)? I'm not the best judge of 3rd Party classes so I wanted to hear some insight from the rest of the community based on the following 3 Questions.

The Questions
- Is it playable? As in, can the class be played from lvl 1-20 without there being any obvious destructive qualities of the class that makes it virtually unplayable; or can the class just explode at one point and overshadow everything because of some very horribly worded or designed aspect.
- What Tier would you Classify it? Referring to the Tier List from 3.5, but pretty much is it?
Tier 1 (Wizard) / Tier 2 (Sorcerer) / Tier 3 (Alchemist) / Tier 4 (Rogue) / Tier 5 (Fighter)
- Would you allow the class as a DM or want to Play it as a PC? This might be more of a preference thing, but if you would be running or playing in a campaign where this class's tier and abilities would fall in with the rest of the party's parameters, would you use it?

List of PF 3rd Party Classes (Thanks to eggs for the table)
Class |Tier |Hit/Miss?
Adept Godling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/adept-godling) | 2 | Miss
Apprentice (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/apprentice) | 0 | Miss
Archon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/archon) | 3 | Miss
Armiger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/armiger) | 4-5 | Miss
Artificer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/artificer) | 2 | Miss
Beastmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/beastmaster) | 4 | Hit
Bounty Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/bounty-hunter) | 4 | Hit
Clever Godling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/clever-godling) | 3-4 | Hit
Corbie (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/corbie) | 5-6 | Miss
Corsair (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/corsair) | 4 | Miss
Death Mage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/death-mage) | 3 | Hit
Dragonrider (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/dragonrider) | 3 | Miss
Eldritch Godling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/eldritch-godling) | 1 | Miss
Elven Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/open-design/elven-archer) | 5 | Miss
Gladiator (1) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/gladiator) | 5 | Miss
Gladiator (2) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/gladiator) | 5 | Miss
Hellenic Sorceress (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/sean-k-reynolds-games/hellenic-sorceress) | 3 | Miss
Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/hunter) | 4-5 | Miss
Knight (1) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/knight) | 5 | Miss
Knight (2) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/knight) | 5 | Hit
Machinesmith (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/louis-porter-jr-design/machinesmith) | 4 | Miss
Magister (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/magister) | 1 | Hit
Malefactor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/total-party-kill-games-classes/malefactor) | 3-4 | Hit
Martial Artist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/martial-artist) | 5-6 | Miss
Mighty Godling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/mighty-godling) | 3-4 | Hit
Priest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/priest) | 1 | Miss
Pugilist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/wordcasting-entertainment/pugilist) | 5-6 | Hit
Scholar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/scholar) | 5-6 | Miss
Schooled Bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/schooled-bard) | 3 | Hit
Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/scout) | 4-5 | Miss
Shadow Assassin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/Shadow-Assassin) | 4-5 | Miss
Shaman (1) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/shaman) | 1 | Hit
Shaman (2) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/shaman) | 0 | Miss
Spellblade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/spellblade) | 3 | Miss
Spy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/spy) | 4 | Hit
Swashbuckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/swashbuckler) | 5 | Miss
Taskshaper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/rite-publishing/taskshaper) | 3 | Hit
Time Thief (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/time-thief) | 3-4 | Miss
Vanguard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/vanguard) | 3 | Miss
Voyageur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/voyageur) | 7 | Miss
War Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/war-master) | 5 | Miss
Warlock (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/warlock) | 0 | Miss
Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/tos---warlord) | 3 | Miss
Witch Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch-hunter) | 4 | Hit


[SIDE NOTE]Oh, and if you were wondering why the Psionic Stuff isn't here, it's because the PF community has already established how well made the classes are and further indulgence into the matter seems a bit unless. So, PF Psionics appears to be a Hit![/SIDE NOTE]

[Starscream]

Can't access the srd at work, so I can only go off memory, but I know I took a look at the Artificer and found it to be underwhelming compared to the 3.5 Eberron version.

It was weird. It had an odd number of skill points per level (5 I think?) which is unheard of. And probably should have had a d8 HD, not d6.

It also had an ability called "salvage", which lets you break down a magic item and get the money that it cost to craft (not xp, since PF doesn't use xp to craft). But since the cost to make an item is equal to half its price, and that's the amount you can usually sell stuff for anyway, I don't see the point unless you can't find a buyer for some reason. And you can only use this "money" (you don't literally suck a pile of gold out of a wand) on other crafting, making it arguably less useful than just selling it, as you get the same amount of cash but are limited in its use.

I think there were some other odd things, but I don't remember. Overall, not as good as 3.5s, but that one was a Tier 1, so maybe a power reduction is a good idea.

Is it playable?
I think so, just odd and not very balanced.

What Tier would you Classify it? Referring to the Tier List from 3.5, but pretty much is it?
Maybe 3, maybe worse. I think I recall it having some metamagic powers as well, and those might be powerful, but I don't remember the details.

Would you allow the class as a DM or want to Play it as a PC?
I think I would allow it, but I don't think it would appeal very much as a player.

[Cuaqchi]

That actually has a huge amount of value in any campaign where you are away from civilization for an extended period or if the magical bazaar is restricted by the DM. By strict money=cost comparisons as presented in the books it has no value what-so-ever; but, what about if the item in question is so over-sized it isn't worth carrying in your Bag of Holding/Portable Hole? EX. A titan's magic hammer. You can use salvage to effectively shrink the hammer to a medium sized weapon with exactly the same properties given sufficient time.

[Starscream]

That actually has a huge amount of value in any campaign where you are away from civilization for an extended period or if the magical bazaar is restricted by the DM. By strict money=cost comparisons as presented in the books it has no value what-so-ever; but, what about if the item in question is so over-sized it isn't worth carrying in your Bag of Holding/Portable Hole? EX. A titan's magic hammer. You can use salvage to effectively shrink the hammer to a medium sized weapon with exactly the same properties given sufficient time.

I wouldn't call the ability useless, merely far more limited in use than the 3.5 ability it is replacing. It's useful conditionally; if an item is too big to transport efficiently, can't be sold, and the group agrees that they rather have those resources to craft new items than for any other purpose, then yes it is handy. But the exact same thing can be said of the 3.5 artificer's equivalent ability, and that has the added advantage of rewarding you with a unique resource; there is no other way of turning items into xp. Turning items into gold is something everyone already has a way of doing 99% of the time. Heck, a good bluff/appraise/diplomacy check can sometimes get you more than the crafting cost of an item through haggling, and you can use that gold for anything.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Well I guess I'll start with the first one.

Adept Godling- Miss - Awkward class with a low optimization floor and a high optimization ceiling. It has lots of abilities that are meh on the surface, but very breakable.

It's a caster class that grants 1st to 6th level spells and you have to pick a class list to emulate so your casting 6th level spells from a list like cleric or wizard at level 16 and that's the limit of your arcane power. So you don't get over level spells like most 1-6 casters do, unless you take the list of a 1-6 caster like bard or summoner then you could get some wizard/cleric 9's at level 16.

It actually doesn't call out base class so you could make a Adept that casts from a PrC list opening up all kinds of broken. Then there's the minor Ascendency Attuned Mystisism which let's you pick a creature type and have spells effect it that normally affect another type so you could get level 4 Dominate Person from the Bard list and effectively turn it into Dominate Monster at level 10.

Then there's the Major Ascendencies of Dual casting (cast two standard action spells as a full round action) and Immortal Invocation (cast higher level spells out of lower level slots) Immortal Invocation is based on a concentration check that can't be modified by items or spells but this could get you 9's if you picked a casting class with a full progression to emulate( I think). Dual casting doesn't have this restriction and requires a concentration check and that the spells both be under 1/4 caster level, but you could easily get enough concentration/caster level to freely double cast any spells you want every round.

Oh, you can also have any casting stat so take Con any pump it into the stratosphere for HP, shoring up it's one bad save and optimizing Concentration checks.

It's a big ol' messy pile of meh that can be easily be made an awkward tier one with a few cheesy choices that are mostly internal to the class.

Edit: Another mark against it, the tier one builds will be the weakest until it picks up a Major Ascendency to end up tier 1 you have to pick a tier 1 list rather tan a 1-6 list with some under level spells and level from 1 to 13 with Bard type access to the wizard, cleric or druid list.

[AdamT]

There is a lot of potential for abuse in a lot of those classes, but I will say that while they look overpowered, they really are not that bad on average.

Artificer still gets 9's from multiple sources. That pretty much defines tier 1. Dragon rider is fine if you do not allow multiclassing. If you do its broken as hell. Dragon rider 1 / wizard 19 gives you the same dragon as a 17 dragon rider. Overall it fits firmly in tier 3, but mixing in other classes can break it fast... perhaps call it a 1 level t2 dip.
Eldritch godling, same issues as adept godling except it gets full spell casting. In play the biggest issue I saw with it was you REALLY do not want to prc out, even for something like incantatrix. Overall its t1, and probably a bit more powerful than sorc/wiz (you can use a minor ascendency to get a domain added to class spell list, and can use it more than once).
Warlord - t3, but I'd move it up to t2 if you pick up leadership, landlord, and similar feats. One of the few mundanes that can, imho, be considered a true t2. Having said that, its a blast to play if you like the rp of being a bit, um, full of yourself.

[Chained Birds]

The spellcasting Godlings were the ones I had the most trouble with as they were pretty powerful with the ability to gain whatever spells they wanted to go for essentially; especially that whole prestige class nonsense if a DM allowed them to (I wouldn't).

I once tested the Artificer and found that I could make a gun that could shot off 3-4 Magic Missiles simultaneously at an enemy 3 times a day at lvl 7. This was pretty awesome for me at the time because I could technically keep on using the thing as long as I could do a UMD Check that got progressively more difficult to pass. I learned that the class was changed up with some better wordings and a few erratas. Still seems like a solid Tier 2-3 but not tier 1 like its 3.5 predecessor.

Edit: I'll bump the Artificer to Tier 2 for now. Unless anyone seems it should be higher or lower on the list.

Warlord at least looks fun to play. Like a Mundane Bard. Will put him at Tier 3 and definitely a Hit.

Dragonrider has always left me feeling a bit uneasy. The companion is something that many classes have to wait until at least the mid-levels to obtain, and it is one of the few PF classes that is begging for a 1 lvl Dip. I'll put it at Tier 3 with Warlord, but unlike the Warlord, I'm giving it a Miss.

[roguemetal]

I've combed through the 4 Winds 3rd party stuff and haven't had good reactions to it.

Apprentice - The Apprentice is a one-level core class that functionally destroys multiclass balance. They choose two OTHER core classes and for feats, prestige classes, level-dependent class features, spells known, and spells per day they count as BOTH classes. This is far too abusable, the +0 BAB and saves does not balance it out.
Is it playable? No, absolutely not. It has one level and is horribly unbalanced.
What Tier would you Classify it? Tier? You can't even place it, it has only 1 level, which is more like two levels of two other classes... Tier 0?
Would you allow the class as a DM or want to Play it as a PC? No.

Gladiator - The Gladiator just barely makes it onto the spectrum by being a Fighter with less options and all the wrong ones, but then bumps themselves up with a fairly abusable mechanic of adjusting the price of items according to their Reputation ability. The abiltiy sadly scales with level only, and doesn't become useful til level 20 and wouldn't be really good until epic levels, and is otherwise a negative.
Is it playable? Yes, although barely, and the progression is strange and feels weak.
What Tier would you Classify it? Tier 5, assuming the character lives long enough to capitalize on their Reputation.
Would you allow the class as a DM or want to Play it as a PC? Yes, though I would recommend against it.

Schooled Bard - Pretty close to the same as a traditional bard, some useful and other less than inspiring abilities depending on 'Bardic School' but it balances out.
Is it playable? Yes, easily.
What Tier would you Classify it? 3, same as Bard.
Would you allow the class as a DM or want to Play it as a PC? Yeah, sure, it's just a rip-off Bard.

Voyageur - The voyageur is a class devoted to going down rivers in a canoe. Everything revolves around the canoe and most things they do could be better accomplished by being a pure ranger or rogue.
Is it playable? No, it has less useful abilities and feats than a fighter, and only 4+int skills with no casting.
What Tier would you Classify it? Tier 7.
Would you allow the class as a DM or want to Play it as a PC? No. If a player chooses this class I know they're looking for a joke class. That's all this is.

[gr8artist]

I'm in a game now with a Magister and a Timethief, both level 6.
So far, neither is seeming overpowered or too weak. The time-thief is useless in combat at this level, but it's a skill monkey so whatever.
No idea what tier I'd put them in, but we're allowing both and see no problem with them.

[Novawurmson]

For the Archon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/archon): Tier 3. It's basically a buffed-up Duskblade, and unfortunately seems to have come out before the Magus. Most Pathfinder games should probably just use the Magus, which comes online earlier, scales a little more evenly, and has a bit more of a blasty spell list. It's certainly playable, but I'd recommend players think long and hard about why they would take it over the Magus.

Edit: For the Armiger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/armiger): Tier 4-5. This is not the tank you are looking for. True, these guys should be pretty hard to kill, but their best ability, Citadel (hard cover for all adjecent allies), can be achieved in only two levels; after that, you've got very little unique. Most of Why the Fighter is Tier 5 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11742.msg403888#msg403888) applies here, though 4+Int skill points helps out of combat. For a low-tier, low-magic game, the Armiger will be great; if the DM knows to throw AoEs at closely clumped PCs, you're going to be hurting fast.

Edit: For the Bounty Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/bounty-hunter): Tier 4. You're basically a Ranger with full sneak attack instead of spells, an animal companion and any choices. I'm having trouble seeing where this guy would fit in: in a low optimization game, full BAB and sneak attack is going to be tearing through opponents like nobody's business; in a high optimization game, you're mostly getting the worthless parts of being a Ranger (Endurance, anyone?). Certainly playable, but think hard about why you wouldn't just play a Rogue or a Ranger first.

Edit: I'm really enjoying this.

For the Corbie (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/corbie): Tier 5-6. It's better than the Warrior, I'll give it that. You'll make all your Expert friends jealous when you get all skills as class skills at level 16. Seriously, this class would be outright broken if everyone else in your party was playing a Commoner. For a no/low magic, very low tier campaign, I can see this being playable. For anything else, I would never let a player use this class.

Edit: For the Corsair (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/corsair): Tier 4. Another Full BAB, full sneak attack class with a vaguely nautical theme. Again, low optimization this is going to do lots of damage, high optimization, you're going to get bored fast as all your class gives you besides a strong base are some random feats from the CRB.

[Giegue]

Death Mage: Tier 3. The class looks like fun, but sadly doesn't work as advertised. As a minion-focused Necromancer, it is rather poor, since it is unable to create fast zombies and lacks accessed to other important spells like desecrate. Despite being called a "death mage" you won't be rocking an undead army of the same size or quality as a cleric or Bones Oracle. So if your looking for lots of minions and like zombies, this is not your class. However, if you like all the other stuff necromancy is about, darkness, debuffing, negative energy damage ect....and don't mind just having one or two skeleton minions around instead of an army(and eschewing zombies all together because you can't make them fast) then this class will be right up your alley. A fun, though very non-traditional necromantic spellcaster that, while I think is cool, is ultimately a miss because it's such a poor minionmaster/doesn't work as advertised.

[Novawurmson]

For the Witch Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch-hunter): Tier 4. This is a very well-designed and interesting class, but its usefulness depends on what "witches" it's going to be hunting. Against hags? You'll do great. Against Clerics, Witches, and Wizards? Eeeeh... you don't get flight or a way to negate flight, you don't get miss chance or a way to negate miss chance, you don't get invisibility or a way to negate invisibility (except scent, possibly, at level 10+...The witch hunter would be a great addition to a party in a world in which tier 1-2s don't exist, which isn't necessarily a bad house rule if you're looking for balance. An optimized tier 1 will stomp the witch hunter; the witch hunter can stomp an unoptimized caster. I would call it a hit for low-optimization groups and a miss for high-optimization groups.

[Chained Birds]

I'm in a game now with a Magister and a Timethief, both level 6.
So far, neither is seeming overpowered or too weak. The time-thief is useless in combat at this level, but it's a skill monkey so whatever.
No idea what tier I'd put them in, but we're allowing both and see no problem with them.

I'll wait for some more insight into these two class before I label them as being either Hit or Miss. But it is nice to hear people are having fun with the classes at least. :smallwink:

@Novawurmson: Thanks for the the analysis. I knew some people would have a blast trying to figure out how good a class is.

[Rejakor]

Armiger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/armiger): I was super excited for this when I saw it granted cover to adjacent allies - melee wall time! Then I realized that 'hard' cover is not the same as TOTAL cover - i.e. the kind of cover that matters. Then I was even less excited when I saw that the rest of the class's abilities can be summed up as 'zippidy doo dah, zippidy day'. Tier 5. I'd allow it into my games only with extensive rewrites.

Elven Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/open-design/elven-archer): Yawn. Classic case of 'oh I best not make it TOO powerful' and ending up weaker than the balance point of the original thing. Trade away favoured enemy and animal companion for stuff no-one cares about and really really slow sneak attack progression (like, slower than scout skirmish) and magic arrows at the level where you've had better magic arrows for the last twenty sessions. Tier 5. Again, I wouldn't allow it in my games unless I was aiming for a really really low balance point.

Hellenic Sorceress (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/sean-k-reynolds-games/hellenic-sorceress): I was fired up going into this. I was thinking restricted schools (maybe restricted list?) in exchange for AWESOME THEMATIC POWERS OUT OF GREEK MYTH. Kind of like the Oracle should have been. But then we get to the actual class, and it's kind of like an adept that uses the sorc/wiz list. Doesn't get higher than 6th level spells, no class features to speak of. However it does get those 6th level spells at the same rate as the regular sorcerer, and it does get higher level spell slots - just has to use lower level spells in them. Tier 3. I wouldn't allow it for reasons of GODDAMN BORING. I'd write my own crazy hellenic sorceress class.


Machinesmith (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/louis-porter-jr-design/machinesmith): AWesome name, and very poorly written. Working out what some of these abilities do is like decoding an overly verbose instruction manual written by someone whose native language is german. Short version: The class does very little. It's a medium caster that makes 'prototypes' of spells off a very short list, and gets to pick one of three very lacklustre 'greatworks'. Anything that would actually be useful is slammed with a 1/day proviso, and you can't mass produce anything. It seems like it wants to craft stuff, but that stuff is probably mundane items no-one cares about. It's certainly no Spark Scientos. Low tier 4. And that's only because one of the greatworks is worth about half an animal companion. I wouldn't allow this in my games, again, because it would be incredibly boring for the player.

[AdamT]

Adding one more thing about the dragon rider. If you go dragon rider 1 / witch 19 you will literally turn into limburger. Thats not a joke either.

[avr]

I looked at the artificer & thought that it would be appropriate in a time limited campaign, but if the DM ever says you have a month or two of downtime, the artificer will suddenly be festooned with magical items. The weird science power is probably too good in such a scenario.

Tier 1 because it really can break the game using that power, or regular item crafting. Playable or allowable in some campaigns but not others.

[Rejakor]

Vanguard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/vanguard): Duskblade clone, learns spells from sorc/wiz instead of restricted list, has a few anti-spell attacks and defenses that add up to basically useless, does nothing else. Boring, nothing to do with vanguarding. Miss.

Time Thief (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/time-thief): I was expecting something terrible, but the concept of this class is actually okay. Suffers from typical pathfinder thing though of interesting concept poor mechanical execution. The names of the abilities are cool, the actual effect is kind of meh. It ranks in at really low tier 3, largely thanks to the Steal Time temporal talent which allows you to do a sort of spring attack dealio staggering people (at a cost of one mote per use) but keeps them staggered for 1/2 your class level in rounds. Not as cool as it seems as you don't have sneak attack or anything else worthwhile to actually DO while they're staggered.

With temporal abilities that live up to their fluff, and putting them on something other than a ridiculous per day system, this class could be a quite decent tier 3 timebending thief class, without the sneak attack or skillmonkey abilities of a rogue, but having the ability to blink in and out of the timestream, send people in and out of the timestream, make them fight their time-doubles etc.

Hit on the concept(great ideas in the abilities etc), miss on the mechanics(abilities don't live up to their fluff at all).

Taskshaper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/rite-publishing/taskshaper): Kind of a hit. I don't know why you'd want to play a tier 3 polymorpher who gets nothing else from his class, but hey, you can. It does what it sets out to do. I'm just not really sure if that's something that many people will want.

[ZDPhoenix]

I've made tons of NPCs from Super Genius Games stuff. I am not exaggerating when I say I've bought all of their Class PDFs. And that's because they've been all hits to me. The Godling classes get some slack from the general public for some reason (I'm imagining the name?), but they've been quite entertaining as both part time party help; and nemesis alike.

[avr]

Taskshaper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/rite-publishing/taskshaper): Kind of a hit. I don't know why you'd want to play a tier 3 polymorpher who gets nothing else from his class, but hey, you can. It does what it sets out to do. I'm just not really sure if that's something that many people will want.
As a 1-level dip, that class is quite, quite broken. As a 20-level class I could have fun playing it.

[Chained Birds]

I've made tons of NPCs from Super Genius Games stuff. I am not exaggerating when I say I've bought all of their Class PDFs. And that's because they've been all hits to me. The Godling classes get some slack from the general public for some reason (I'm imagining the name?), but they've been quite entertaining as both part time party help; and nemesis alike.

If you'd like to put some of your insight into the classes, I'd most appreciate it. For now, at least the Spellcaster ones, are fundamentally broken as they are not restricted on the class they can gain spells from and can easily gain access to high level spells at low levels if they choose a spell granting prestige. I wonder what the best PF Prestige choice would be for is class?


As a 1-level dip, that class is quite, quite broken. As a 20-level class I could have fun playing it.

Hmm, I see your point. Full proficiency, Able to use all Spell Trigger items, 2 good saves, a free +1 on any d20 roll, and pretty much a floating feat; all make this as bad as the Dragonrider when it comes to dipping. I guess I'm going to have to get it a Miss for this as it grants way too much for 1 level which PF in general frowns upon. Seems perfectly viable for 3.5 though! :smallamused:

[ZDPhoenix]

If you'd like to put some of your insight into the classes, I'd most appreciate it. For now, at least the Spellcaster ones, are fundamentally broken as they are not restricted on the class they can gain spells from and can easily gain access to high level spells at low levels if they choose a spell granting prestige. I wonder what the best PF Prestige choice would be for is class?

They do though.

From the Mystic Godlings PDF:


Spell List Selection: A godling casts spells
drawn from a spell list selected when the
character is created. Adept godlings may
choose the list of any class that grants access to
1st level spells at level 1. For eldritch godlings,
the class must be a dedicated spellcasting class
(one that both has access to 1st level spells at
level 1, and that eventually receives 9th level
spells). The godling is considered an arcane
spellcaster if an arcane spell list is selected, and
a divine caster if a divine list is selected. The
selected list becomes the class spell list for that
particular godling character.


For what prestige would go well, I couldn't tell you. In my games, we have it house ruled that Godling characters can't prestige/multi-class; as they are descendants of great entities/gods/demi-gods, etc., proving their worth; not just mortal heroes striving for greater heights of power and grandeur.

[Giegue]

Priest: Tier 1. The pathfinder rendition of the cloistered cleric sucks. And not just a little. It sucks a whole lot. The cloistered cleric gives up much of it's martial ability, leading one to believe it would be built to be a caster cleric yet it's spellcasting gets reduced to a crippling degree. So then, your probably thinking....ok...so maybe it's a skill monkey? Nay to this as well, as it's skill points are only 4+int, a paltry boost compared to 3.5e's 6+ int.

To fix this problem, we get the priest. Unlike the craptastic pathfinder take on the cloistered cleric the priest is basically an almost direct translation of the 3.5e version of the cloistered cleric into pathfinder. All the trappings of the old cloistered cleric are there. 6+ Int skills, free knowladge domain, lore ability ect... The only downside to this class is that it may be TOO good.

You see, unlike the 3.5e cloistered cleric, which gets the same spells per-day as a cleric, the priest gets one extra domain spell of each spell level. So, it's level 1 spells per day is 1+2 instead of 1+1. Also, there is the fact that domains in pathfinder are buffed to a significant degree, giving you multiple abilities. The free knowladge domain is thus far more powerful in PF then it was in 3.5e. Add in the fact that the things the class gives up for these are identical to the sacrifices a cloistered cleric makes in 3.5e and the priest may in fact be BETTER then the cleric.

Thus, while it is an interesting class and does the cloistered cleric in PF right in many ways, I am forced to label it a miss since, at least on paper, it looks BETTER then the cleric, and when your stronger then one of the strongest tier 1 classes in the game that in my book constitutes a miss.

[NamelessNPC]

Death Mage: Tier 3. The class looks like fun, but sadly doesn't work as advertised. As a minion-focused Necromancer, it is rather poor, since it is unable to create fast zombies and lacks accessed to other important spells like desecrate. Despite being called a "death mage" you won't be rocking an undead army of the same size or quality as a cleric or Bones Oracle. So if your looking for lots of minions and like zombies, this is not your class. However, if you like all the other stuff necromancy is about, darkness, debuffing, negative energy damage ect....and don't mind just having one or two skeleton minions around instead of an army(and eschewing zombies all together because you can't make them fast) then this class will be right up your alley. A fun, though very non-traditional necromantic spellcaster that, while I think is cool, is ultimately a miss because it's such a poor minionmaster/doesn't work as advertised.

I consider it a hit for the same reasons you praise, considering that the class is nowhere (read: not in the SRD, I don't have the book) advertised as a minionmancer, but more like a debuffer. Tier 3, indeed.

[Giegue]

Yeah. I have the book. Payed money for it too. The book does not say that the class is JUST a minionmancer, and does specify that it can do other things beyond minionmancy. However, it does, give the impression, that taking the corpse mage will make you a good minonmancer and that the class is capiable of strong minionmancy with the right build. However, that is, in reality, not the case. Out of all the pale roads, corpse mage is one of the most lame, and undead leadership does NOT make you a "good minionmancer." For that, you would need desecrate and either remove paralysis or haste(to make fast zombies, since no zombies except fast zombies are worth animating.)...and command undead is almost a must as well. The Corpse mage lacks command undead. The corpse mage dosen't get remove paralysis/haste and desecrate added to it's spell list. Therefore, the corpse mage is rather poor as a minionmancer. It's first level ability is an utter joke. The undead leadership I admit is nice, and unless you port awaken undead to PF then a corpse mage pale road death mage is the ONLY character who can get undead with actual class levels. However, that fact dose not make up for the fact that the death mage is just inferor at making use of the animate dead spell, which is THE thing the minionmancer is all about.

Does that mean the class is bad and unplayable? Heck no. It's a tier 3 and a solid one at that. It has good flavor. It has some nice options and is good at debuffing and doing other stuff. The shadow mage pale road is especially great, and probably the strongest of the bunch. The others except reaper mage(which seemed lackluster and rather weak to me) where all good too. It's just...when I hear the name "death mage" I think lord of undead, not shadow-weilding debuffer..and the fact that the book pushed the corpse mage pale road as being "mistaken for a necromancer" and "being able to command legions" was a big disapointment for me when I saw the spell list for the class.

There are more factors to the "miss" department for me, though that was the biggest one. The reaper mage, I thought, was also a miss. Not as big as the corpse mage, but it just seemed weak. It gave a bunch of melee abilities to a class that really is not made for melee. If it, say, gave you cha to AC somehow or some other defensive boosts(Dread Necro-esc DR maybe?)it may be better, but as it stands the death mage is not built for melee survivability and the reaper mage pale road gives boost to melee without boosting your survivability. As a result I thought it, along with corpse mage, was also a big letdown. Finally, there is the fetish powers, which while EXTREMELY flavorful and interesting where a miss for me because many of them where very poorly worded and it took me a bit to get a handle on them. This may have been fixed on the SRD. I have not checked out the death mage entry on the SRD so I cannot say.

However, the class is still fun, flavorful and fully playable, and I know others may disagree with me labeling it a miss and that's fine. It's just not what I think of as a "death mage"...I think if it where named something like "Black Mage" "Shadow Mage" or " Dark Mage" I would not have been as disappointed as I was.

[Chained Birds]

Seems like a lot of love for the Death Mage, so I'll give it a Hit now due to all the positive feedback.

[Slipperychicken]

Time Thief (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/time-thief):


I have read that class multiple times, and I have no idea what it's supposed to do in combat, or what it's mechanical appeal is supposed to be at all, aside from being a combat-useless Rogue who has to blow dailies to use half its Talents.

I've seen it in play, and it solidly fills the "waste of space" role unoptimized. In the hands of a competent user, I can see it being a good skillmonkey who nonetheless struggles in combat. Like a very heavily-nerfed Factotum.

[Rejakor]

I looked at the artificer & thought that it would be appropriate in a time limited campaign, but if the DM ever says you have a month or two of downtime, the artificer will suddenly be festooned with magical items. The weird science power is probably too good in such a scenario.

Tier 1 because it really can break the game using that power, or regular item crafting. Playable or allowable in some campaigns but not others.

Well, you're wrong about this.

As written, Weird Science does [God Knows What], because every DM will houserule it differently. The sanest houserule is that you get a total number of spells in weird science devices equal to the table in the class - as that's a tier 3/4 appropriate, it fits with the rest of the class (i.e. nerfed to hell).

But yeah, god knows what it would look like on different tables, as it doesn't actually define any parameters of what it does, just loosely defines what the artificer 'can' do, which is apparently pack as many 9th level spells as he can into a single artificer device and let loose the juice from level 1 onwards.


As a 1-level dip, that class is quite, quite broken. As a 20-level class I could have fun playing it.

You can reliably activate any item you can own as a rogue with maxed out UMD (which most rogues do buy), as an artificer, or with a dip in the appropriate class.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency might be a big deal in a game with backwards compatibility, but PF weapons, like most pathfinder stuff, are a lot more boringtame than their 3.5 equivalents.

And +1 is.. a +1. A certain number of times per day. I don't care, and I will never care, about that.


Maybe in a very low op game dipping this would be 'broken'. Like, fighters with Animal Affinity low op.

In a game with a wizard in it, this is a waste of time for any class.


I have read that class multiple times, and I have no idea what it's supposed to do in combat, or what it's mechanical appeal is supposed to be at all, aside from being a combat-useless Rogue who has to blow dailies to use half its Talents.

I've seen it in play, and it solidly fills the "waste of space" role unoptimized. In the hands of a competent user, I can see it being a good skillmonkey who nonetheless struggles in combat. Like a very heavily-nerfed Factotum.

Yeah, that's why I said 'miss' on mechanics. It doesn't do what it's trying to do.

The only thing it can do in combat is spend motes to stagger people (something a 3.5 rogue can do for free, albeit with shorter duration) and then go and cry in a corner when it runs out of motes. It could theoretically spend motes to grab bonuses from a bunch of different people and then have like +15 to everything. That's not.. terrible, assuming the bonuses stack (I am too lazy to go check).

It's not a good skillmonkey, though. It doesn't get any social skills other than bluff, it doesn't get the good knowledges, it doesn't get UMD. It only gets the Thievery (search, disable device, sleight of hand, open lock, decipher script) and the Movement (tumble jump climb swim use rope etc) skills. It gets the set of THIEF skills but not the set of ROGUE skills. Which I find appropriate, but it needs some other stuff to make up for that, and it doesn't get it.

A rewrite of the mechanics of the class that involved more stealing other people's actions, time-teleportation, rewinds, screwing with people's perceptions of the timestream, etc etc would actually be pretty playable. But as-is, it's not playable. Too much per day to even function in a tier 5 party.

[NamelessNPC]

Beastmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/beastmaster): Tier 4, but only really because of the animal companion. Hit.

This is kind of a mix between barbarian and ranger. It has a d12 HD, full BAB, good fort and ref, an animal companion (as the druid's, not the ranger's) and no rage. Has some weak cha based animal related bonuses (can buff them and dominate them at later levels, which is cool even if really useless) and lots those class features that usually dex based classes get (evasion, unanny dodge, fast movement, etc). I seems really cool and flavorful, a bestial feral warrior that doesn't rely on animal magic but on animal friendship! It occupies a small niche for Tarzan or Mowgli types that neither barbarian nor ranger can accomodate to.

HOWEVER, it is a severely underpowered class. Has no heavy armor or shield proficiency, no bonus feats and very few active class features. At lvl 20 you get a second animal companion and your own herd, which as everything else, looks cool but with not many applications.

All in all, it seems awesome for a low powered campaign, or for a boss to fight while you are lost in the forest, but hi op players beware.

[Zherog]

Elven Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/open-design/elven-archer): Yawn. Classic case of 'oh I best not make it TOO powerful' and ending up weaker than the balance point of the original thing. Trade away favoured enemy and animal companion for stuff no-one cares about and really really slow sneak attack progression (like, slower than scout skirmish) and magic arrows at the level where you've had better magic arrows for the last twenty sessions. Tier 5. Again, I wouldn't allow it in my games unless I was aiming for a really really low balance point.


Give the arrow enhancement ability another look. You don't need to invest an initial +1 into the arrow. You could spend your +1 on, for example, flaming or bane. It's essentially a free weapon enhancement that can be changed daily to suit what you need.

[Rejakor]

1d6 damage is very exciting, but not really at level 9 when you already have magical arrows.

The only real use is to get Bane (aberrations) or whatever when you know you're gonna fight nothing but aberrations all day.

That's kind of useful.

But very, very, very niche. All-day favoured enemy and animal companion is much, much better.

Not that 'better' is really a word you can apply to straight ranger much of the time.

[Zherog]

The class has favored enemy (called "preferred target"), but only gets one. And so what that you already have a magic bow by level 9? Now your magic bow is more magicky.

[Rejakor]

The class has favored enemy (called "preferred target"), but only gets one. And so what that you already have a magic bow by level 9? Now your magic bow is more magicky.

Actually, by level 9, they should have both a magic bow and magic arrows.

Otherwise they're not really an archer, as they've been spending wealth on stuff other than archery.

[NamelessNPC]

Shaman (from Adamant Entertainment) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/shaman) Tier 1 (but see below)

Chasis: Non lawful, 3/4 bab, good fort and will, 4 skill ranks per level, sub par skills, simple weapons, light armor and hide (but not chain shirt), bucklers and light shields, divine casting.

This is what some people have wanted for a long time, discussing the unfairness of the Druid. Scratch wild shape, animal companion and all the other class features except spellcasting. Bam! You get the shaman.

In exchange, you get some complicated spellcasting system (that I'm sure some other classes have) where you choose your spells known for the day and you can use your slots per day any way you like. So, it gains some on the fly versatility. Now, there are some problems with this, because the Spells per day table indicates you can cast like the Druid as opposed to Sorcerer (2nd lvl spells at CL 3) and the Spells known table indicates you know 0 2nd lvl spells at CL 3. It may mean that it is modified by your WIS bonus, but it isn't stated anywhere, and I don't think it's common for ability bonuses to improve your amount of spells known. Whatever. You also can choose a domain every day, you get the powers as a cleric of that level, and add the spells to your daily spell list.

The druid spell list is not so hot, but the best domain for the day each day AND the versatility of changing your spells known add a lot, so this is probably tier 1, I guess? It also depends on what the heck the spells known table means, being 1/2 level behind is not trivial.

[Roncorps]

What about the War Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/war-master) ? Full BAB, 2/3 great save, 4 skill pts, full weapon/armor proficiency (without exotic w and tower shield).

I'm not that good to see if his ability are kind of useful. His "Battle Tactics" seem a little limited, with a use of 4+CHA+2(levels) rounds (so 8 rounds level 1 at 18 CHA to minimum 46 rounds at level 20).

[AdamT]

What about the War Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/war-master) ? Full BAB, 2/3 great save, 4 skill pts, full weapon/armor proficiency (without exotic w and tower shield).

I'm not that good to see if his ability are kind of useful. His "Battle Tactics" seem a little limited, with a use of 4+CHA+2(levels) rounds (so 8 rounds level 1 at 18 CHA to minimum 46 rounds at level 20).

I have not played or dmed the war master, and my op-fu is rather sub-op, so take all this with a grain of salt. When reading this guy I just cant help but think he's a really sub op party buffer. His abilities do not stack up to a full casters buffing, and his abilities without a party make him nothing more than an unoptimized fighter. Having said that, there are a couple things that stand out which makes me think he'd be great in limited environments. That set of circumstances is as a general type character in a war type setting (red hand of doom, kingmaker) IF he has leadership, the born leader talent, and dips three levels into the Warlord class for 2d6 inspiration and other goodies. With that build you would have a real army that actually lets the level 1 minions accomplish something. Given all of that, I'd still say there are better minionmancers out there, so overall he is a miss, t4 max, probably t5. Oddly enough, I still think he would be fun to play... And would be great in a gestalt build. Would I allow it into a game? Sure.

[AdamT]

Shaman (from Adamant Entertainment) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/shaman) Tier 1 (but see below)

Chasis: Non lawful, 3/4 bab, good fort and will, 4 skill ranks per level, sub par skills, simple weapons, light armor and hide (but not chain shirt), bucklers and light shields, divine casting.

This is what some people have wanted for a long time, discussing the unfairness of the Druid. Scratch wild shape, animal companion and all the other class features except spellcasting. Bam! You get the shaman.

In exchange, you get some complicated spellcasting system (that I'm sure some other classes have) where you choose your spells known for the day and you can use your slots per day any way you like. So, it gains some on the fly versatility. Now, there are some problems with this, because the Spells per day table indicates you can cast like the Druid as opposed to Sorcerer (2nd lvl spells at CL 3) and the Spells known table indicates you know 0 2nd lvl spells at CL 3. It may mean that it is modified by your WIS bonus, but it isn't stated anywhere, and I don't think it's common for ability bonuses to improve your amount of spells known. Whatever. You also can choose a domain every day, you get the powers as a cleric of that level, and add the spells to your daily spell list.

The druid spell list is not so hot, but the best domain for the day each day AND the versatility of changing your spells known add a lot, so this is probably tier 1, I guess? It also depends on what the heck the spells known table means, being 1/2 level behind is not trivial.

If you are going to play the shaman you really need to buy a copy of the product... at lest according to one of the comments on that class page. The poster said that the original source allows basically the same armor as a druid, while the writeup on the shaman says no armor allowed.

The confusing part of the spells is not that confusing actually. Take level 3 for example: 0 spells known, 2 spells castable a day. That is confusing until you remember that the shaman gets to chose a domain each day. Those castable spells are the domain spell. So for our level 3 shaman with darkness domain he would be able to cast blindness/deafness 2x a day.

Having not played or dmed this class take this with a grain of salt as well: playable? Yes, seems very fun. Hit/miss? Hit. Tier? 1. Tier one is defined as being able to break the game in many different ways. Level 9 spells from a full spell list like druid qualifies. Extra spells, basically access to every domain in the game, just bumps that up some. He is surely t1.

[Novawurmson]

I'm in an alliterative mood, so let's select the Spellblade, Spy, and Swashbuckler.

Spellblade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/spellblade): Tier 3. Playable, but it's basically a Magus that draws from any spells on the wizard spell list in exchange for just about all of its class features. Pass.

Spy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/spy): Tier 4. Playable. This is basically just a nice Rogue archetype that gives up trap stuff for social interaction and sneakiness. In fact, it'd be even better if you just treat it like an expanded Rogue archetype (like the Ninja), and just let it take Rogue talents. Because it's a Rogue. Seriously. It's still a better Spy than the PF Spy archetype, though. Definitely worth a look if you plan on playing a Rogue.

Swashbuckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/swashbuckler): Tier 5. You know how the 3.5 Swashbuckler got Int to damage, so it actually had a unique class feature? This Swashbuckler just gets some sneak attack, except it only works with fines sable weapons, so it has less build options than a Rogue. This is a pretty sad excuse for a unique class; at best, this should have been a Fighter archetype. Pass.

[NamelessNPC]

If you are going to play the shaman you really need to buy a copy of the product... at lest according to one of the comments on that class page. The poster said that the original source allows basically the same armor as a druid, while the writeup on the shaman says no armor allowed.

Yeah, I have the book. The rest of the class is correct


The confusing part of the spells is not that confusing actually. Take level 3 for example: 0 spells known, 2 spells castable a day. That is confusing until you remember that the shaman gets to chose a domain each day. Those castable spells are the domain spell. So for our level 3 shaman with darkness domain he would be able to cast blindness/deafness 2x a day.

I don't think that's correct. It says:


Domain spells do not grant extra daily spells known, although the shaman may select them as part of his daily spell list.

Spells known is still 0. From your spell list + domain you choose 0 spells for that day.

[Novawurmson]

Up next: Scholar, Scout, Shadow Assassin.

Scholar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/scholar): Tier 5-6. An absolutely bizarre mish-mash of selectable class features. With good sense, I could see someone putting together a decent melee build from the hodge-podge of options, but it would take far more work than it's worth. Maybe this class could replace the Expert for an NPC class game? Mostly a pass.

Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/scout): Tier 4-5. It's a Rogue, only you only (but automatically) get your sneak attack when you attack as a standard action. I could see opening up the few unique "Scout Talents" up to Rogue and Ninjas (and Spies, as mentioned before), or giving the Rogue this ability through a feat/talent/advanced talent. This class is a pass, though.

Shadow Assassin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/Shadow-Assassin): Tier 4-5. Ooooh. You're a stealthy guy. 90% of the time you'll be wishing you were a Rogue; then you'll find out about the Dread (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/100635/Psionics-Expanded%3A-Master-the-Battle) from Dreamscarred Press and you'll be furious. A couple unique affects that would be better as a Rogue archetype or set of talents. Definite pass.

[AdamT]

I don't think that's correct. It says:

Domain spells do not grant extra daily spells known, although the shaman may select them as part of his daily spell list.


Spells known is still 0. From your spell list + domain you choose 0 spells for that day.

Domain spells do not become spells KNOWN. But it specifically says the shaman may select them as part of his daily spell list. A spell known would be one you could chose at any time. A spell you could chose is something you dont know, but have access to because of this ability.

You almost have to read it that way, otherwise there is no benefit to spells from the domains and it would just tell us that the shaman gets the granted abilities of the domain. If you say that once they chose a domain then all spells become spells known, then the shaman would only have to pick that domain once then never again, because all the spells would be known.

It all comes down to you dont KNOW the spells on the domain list, you just get to chose them as long as you have access to that domain.

[Chained Birds]

So, is the Shaman a Hit or a Miss? Sounds like there is too much confusion about how the spells-known thing works for them, so it is now leaning towards a Miss...

[AdamT]

Even if the concensus is the spells known thing means they cant cast domain spells unless first takeing it as a known spell (meaning no benefit from domain spells) I still have to say its a hit. It may not be quite as powerful as a druid, but then neither is 95% of classes that are favorites.

Shaman is very playable, can hold its own in even t1 groups, and has a nice "flavor" to it. Pretty much everything you could ask for in a class.

[AdamT]

Magister: A sorcerer with an unreal number of spells on spell list. Counts as both arcane and divine at the same time. Can wear light armor with no asf. Nice abilities. I wont call it broken, but its, imho, more powerful than wiz/sorc/cleric/druid. In a low to meadium op game it would be a great class, on par with the other t1 classes. In high op it really would blow up. Up to 20 levels of free metamagic? Qualify for both sides of mystic theurge at level 3? Just use a magister and psion then psychic theurge and cerebremancer. 17th level casting on both sides with zero cheese early entry tricks?

Hit or miss? Its close to being a miss because the potential for abuse, but the potential for a great character concept in low to med op games makes me call it a hit... barely.
Tier? Easily t1. Getting up close to the mythical t0.5 in a high op game.
Allow players to play? Depends on how high op the game was. If there are fighters and rogues in the group, no. If there are pouncebarians, mailmen, batman, and similar builds... yea, he fits well with them. Come to think of it, the more I look at this incarnum book, the more I want to mix a magister in with both sapphire hierarch and soulcaster. With no early entry stuff he'd still end up 18 level magister casting and 17 level totem meldshaping. Sounds fun...

[Novawurmson]

Up next: Pugilist, Martial Artist, Malefactor Edit: ...and Warlock, and Shaman

Pugilist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/wordcasting-entertainment/pugilist): Tier 5-6. I really would like to see the styles turned into a series of feats, but this class has little else going for it. In a tier 5-only game, this could be a fun class; otherwise, it's a pass.

Martial Artist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/martial-artist): Tier 5-6. This is a Monk with almost everything remotely magical stripped away from it in exchange for full BAB. Just plead with your DM to make your Monk full BAB and shy away from this class.

Malefactor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/total-party-kill-games-classes/malefactor): Tier 3-4. Huh. There's a lot of potential to screw over your party (you debuff all creature's saves within your Aura of Misfortune, for example), but after reading so many classes with full BAB and no class features, I have to take a moment to applaud a class with so many unique and creative abilities. I would be very careful about using this class (and potentially homebrew some feats that lessen the potential penalties you throw on your allies), because a -5 penalty on your allies' saves at level 18 has the potential for a TPK; consider some of the archetypes that trade out Aura of Misfortune as well (I'd tentatively recommend Moirae). With good communication between DM and PC and good communication between PC and party, I would recommend this class for Hit status.


Edit: Finishinged these three up tomorrow. right now!

Edit: To avoid double-posting, here's my take on the Warlock!

For the Warlock (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/warlock): Tier [Unplayable]. A very poorly worded class that swings wildly with how you interpret the rules around it. How many times can you use each school ability? At-will unless otherwise noted? 1/day unless otherwise noted? Summon Monster II 1/day is nigh worthless, even with a duration of 24 hours; Summoner Monster II at will is nigh-broken, even without the duration increase (if you think Summon Monster II at will with a duration of 24 hours could be broken, look at Summoning Master). What school abilities allow a save? It says you don't need a lower level school ability to take a higher level school ability, but some school abilities seem to modify a lower-level ability; for example, if I take Arcane Eruption, do I have to take Arcane Bolt? Phantasmal Demon funtions as Phantasmal Killer...only the creature is not subjected to instant death? What is "magic resistance?" What does "Damage Reduction /Cold" or "Damage Reduction /Fire" do? This is a poorly designed and terribly edited class; use the 3.5 Warlock or one of the many excellent PF conversions for it on GitP, please. If I haven't been clear enough, this class is a miss.

For the SGG Shaman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/shaman): [Unplayable] (I think). Holy mother of Cayden Cailean, this class is complicated. I really wish there was a more concise explanation of the mechanics of the class with all of the fluff removed, because as it's written on the SRD, expect to spend at least an hour or two reading it and rereading it.

Some major points:

1. The class should have gotten its core feature (Summon Spirit) at level one, and most of its features earlier. Level 1-3 sucks. You're basically a Druid with no spells. In general, abilities come staggered at strange intervals. Your bonus feats are useless filler there to keep you from getting your worthwhile abilities at appropriate levels. Spirit Heal is written like a Magic: The Gathering card. Xd6? Really? Oh, well. It's a decent ability that comes way too late to count on it (surprise).

That's not to say that you don't get cool things; you can pick up any feat and use it for a limited number of rounds per day. I *think* you can pick up any spell (arcane or divine) up to level 9 and use it a limited number of times per day, but it requires at least two skill checks and some DM intervention. Which brings me to my next point.

2. This class seems to require a lot of DM intervention. So, to "prepare spells" you try to bind nearby spirits. However, what said spirits offer and the difficulty of binding them is arbitrarily set by the DM, the best I can see (except for the spell-granting spirits). What happens when the shaman fails to dominate a spirit and the spirit possesses the shaman? The sample spirits only make this more confusing. +5 natural armor or +4 Diplomacy, Gather Information [sic] and Sense Motive? Where did it say you could get that with a spirit? My final word on the matter shall be this:

Hunt as Pack: Medium Spirit, Charisma 3


This type of spirit is reserved for the most powerful hunters of the Wolf Clan. Tethered to the remnant of a wolf’s kill, it is used to allow a hunting group to function as a pack mind during the pursuit and kill of game. It functions similarly to the Message spell, but does not allow a verbal message; rather it uses a form of implied communication. Strategy can be conveyed through a subtle hand-wave, a nod, or even a look. When moving in for the kill, the intent is understood as though the hunters are functioning as one. One message per hunt, per hunter can be conveyed in this manner per turn, usually something like “You two circle around through those trees and drive the herd this way, we’ll pick them off as they cross over the stream.” All that is required is that the recipient see the sender at the time the instruction is sent. This spirit is also useful in combat, which is why Wolf Clan members do battle in the same groups in which they hunt.

TL;DR - You cast a spell that allows you to non-verbally communicate with someone who can see you. This somehow is an honored spirit of the Wolf Clan; apparently, the Wolf Clan hasn't heard of sign language (or, you know, gesturing).

3. You need to make 2 skill checks consistently: Knowledge (Spirits) and Perform (Ceremony); guess where your 2 skill points/level are going! Even the Druid gets better.

Most of what this class offers is fluffy but mechanically frustrating. I feel like at low levels, you would have been better taking levels in Expert, and at high levels, there's potential abuse with taking any 9th level spell, but ultimately, casting one 9th level spell a few times a day is not worth the effort of taking levels in this class. With a lenient DM, you could potentially get any ability whatsoever from a spirit, but I'm still not sure it would save this class.

I'm willing to change my judgment of the class if someone can point me to concrete rules on how to construct spirit (besides the ones that replicate spells) or give me a reasonable explanation of how the class is supposed to function when with a Charisma of 20, the best you can hope for is one level 5 spell and one level 6 spell (or one level 9 spell and one level 2 spell). I feel like they only playtested this class in a sweet spot of about level 4-8, when you could pick up a smattering of level 2-4 spells, have an animal companion, etc. Outside of that sweet spot, things start dropping off fast.

This class has amazing fluff, but needs a complete rewrite on crunch; I sadly label it a miss.

[NamelessNPC]

Domain spells do not become spells KNOWN. But it specifically says the shaman may select them as part of his daily spell list. A spell known would be one you could chose at any time. A spell you could chose is something you dont know, but have access to because of this ability.

You almost have to read it that way, otherwise there is no benefit to spells from the domains and it would just tell us that the shaman gets the granted abilities of the domain. If you say that once they chose a domain then all spells become spells known, then the shaman would only have to pick that domain once then never again, because all the spells would be known.

It all comes down to you dont KNOW the spells on the domain list, you just get to chose them as long as you have access to that domain.

Yes, I know all of that, we were discussing a different thing: the amount of 2nd level spells known you get at CL3. You think that you can cast your domain spell. I think that you can't because it SPECIFICALLY says you do not add your domain spells to your spells known per day (that is, the amount of different spells you will know and can choose to cast that day). Each day, choose from your Spell List+Domains a number of spells equal to your Spells Known, and you can choose to cast any of them in whatever combination until you use all the slots. If your Spells Known are 0, and you DO NOT add anything to that number, then that number is still 0.


Edit: From your later post I think where the confusion comes from. See, this class is terribly edited. It's Spells Known list does not function like any other spontaneous caster. You can change it every day, selecting spells from your list and the domains to fill it.

[Novawurmson]

A tale of two Knights!

Sir Adamant Entertainment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/knight): Tier 5. Picking up the worst parts of the 3.5 Knight, I see; never attack foes when you have a tactical advantage! It gets a plethora of mediocre class features that mostly come too late to be of use. Please play a Cavalier, Fighter, or Paladin, unless you just love telling your group that you're no longer going to attack the lich because he's running away. Definite pass.

Sir Tripod Machine (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/knight): Tier 5. Has a much less restricting code of honor, even if it's completely unnecessary and cumbersome; no alignment restrictions. It also (potentially) gets a mount as a Druid at level 5 - on a mounted-focused class, no less (imagine that)! The Resplendent Powers are interesting, but you can only have one active at a time. I still think Cavalier, Fighter, and Paladin would be better choices, but overall, I'll give it a Hit. A feat that let the Knight have two Replendent Powers at the same time would not be amiss.

Edit: The Hunter.

For the Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/hunter): Tier 4-5. This is just the Ranger with some Sneak Attack instead of spells, no choices for bonus feats, and some pointless skill bonuses. Gee, +2 Perception at level 16; you shouldn't have. Pass.

Edit: The Gladiator (A Fistful of Denarii version)

For the Gladiator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/gladiator): Having looked at so many of these AFFOD classes, I'm going to write "Tier 5" without even looking at the class. Let's see how I did...Yes! This is just a glorified Fighter archetype, folks! It just oozes with feats. Dip it for one level and pick up 3 feats! The text and table don't match at least twice that I counted. This class has absolutely nothing unique to offer. Pass it as quickly as possible.

Edit: I think I should have spaced these out more. I think I'm almost out of classes to rate. On to the Mighty Godling!

For the Mighty Godling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/mighty-godling): Tier 3-4. I like the fluff; basically, your the child of a god/blessed by a god/etc., which is an extremely common trope. It's got a solid chassis and the Divine Traits and Scion Talents are excellent, unique, and well written. My only real gripe about it is that often they grant a class feature normally reserved for another class (i.e. granting Oracle Revelations); overall, this class is firmly a Hit.

[Rejakor]

would not be amiss.

I see what you did there.

[Chained Birds]

Well, unless I missed it somewhere, the only class left is the Clever Godling. Special Thanks to Novawurmson for contributing to half of the list and more.

Seems like Shaman (1) was the most discussed in this thread (surprisingly), but it seems it came out in a Hit... Barely. The Known Spell stuff is still a bit confusing...

Anyways, you guys were all a big help in finding out whether any of these classes were even playable (Marked with a Tier 0 if unplayable or worse). Just one more left. Who wants to do the Honors?!

[eggs]

I don't know if it would be useful to anybody else, but I threw this into a table so the results can be sorted (by clicking column headers) for quick summaries. Class |Tier |Hit/Miss?
Adept Godling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/adept-godling) | 2 | Miss
Apprentice (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/apprentice) | 0 | Miss
Archon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/archon) | 3 | Miss
Armiger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/armiger) | 4-5 | Hit
Artificer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/artificer) | 2 | Miss
Beastmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/beastmaster) | 4 | Hit
Bounty Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/bounty-hunter) | 4 | Hit
Clever Godling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/clever-godling) | [-] | Hit or Miss
Corbie (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/corbie) | 5-6 | Miss
Corsair (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/corsair) | 4 | Hit
Death Mage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/death-mage) | 3 | Hit
Dragonrider (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/dragonrider) | 3 | Miss
Eldritch Godling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/eldritch-godling) | 1 | Miss
Elven Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/open-design/elven-archer) | 5 | Miss
Gladiator (1) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/gladiator) | 5 | Miss
Gladiator (2) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/gladiator) | 5 | Miss
Hellenic Sorceress (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/sean-k-reynolds-games/hellenic-sorceress) | 3 | Miss
Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/hunter) | 4-5 | Miss
Knight (1) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/knight) | 5 | Miss
Knight (2) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/knight) | 5 | Hit
Machinesmith (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/louis-porter-jr-design/machinesmith) | 4 | Miss
Magister (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/magister) | 1 | Hit
Malefactor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/total-party-kill-games-classes/malefactor) | 3-4 | Hit
Martial Artist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/martial-artist) | 5-6 | Miss
Mighty Godling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/mighty-godling) | 3-4 | Hit
Priest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/priest) | 1 | Miss
Pugilist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/wordcasting-entertainment/pugilist) | 5-6 | Hit
Scholar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/scholar) | 5-6 | Miss
Schooled Bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/schooled-bard) | 3 | Hit
Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/scout) | 4-5 | Miss
Shadow Assassin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/Shadow-Assassin) | 4-5 | Miss
Shaman (1) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/shaman) | 1 | Hit
Shaman (2) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/shaman) | 0 | Miss
Spellblade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/spellblade) | 3 | Miss
Spy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/spy) | 4 | Hit
Swashbuckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/swashbuckler) | 5 | Miss
Taskshaper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/rite-publishing/taskshaper) | 3 | Hit
Time Thief (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/time-thief) | 3-4 | Hit
Vanguard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/vanguard) | 3 | Miss
Voyageur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/voyageur) | 7 | Miss
War Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/war-master) | 5 | Hit
Warlock (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/warlock) | 0 | Miss
Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/tos---warlord) | 3 | Hit
Witch Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch-hunter) | 4 | Hit

[AdamT]

18 hits with a good representation in each of the tiers. Overall thats not half bad for 3rd party stuff!

I'd give a writeup on the clever godling, but I've really never been that good at evaluating rogue types. They just never played as powerful as I felt they would, so I'll have to pass on passing judgement there.

Also, for anyone that wants to play some of the miss classes, with just a little work or in some cases avoiding the cheese, some of those misses become very fun classes as well. Don't rule them out of play consideration without a little thought into it first.

[Rejakor]

As a note, Eggs, you have some stuff on there that is listed as a 'hit' that no-one has reviewed as a hit.

When Novawurmson says 'pass', I think he means 'pass' as in 'no thanks' not 'pass' as in 'passes the test'.

Novawurmson is the only person who reviewed the Pugilist, and said it should have been a fighter archetype, and also pass. (i.e. miss)

Armiger was reviewed by myself and Novawurmson, both of whom gave the class a Miss.

Corsair I would give a miss - there is nothing unique or interesting about the class, as Novawurmson points out. Technically playable is not the same as a hit.

As for Time Thief - I probably wasn't clear about this, but a Hit on concept + a Miss on mechanics = Overall Miss. Concept is your initial idea. Mechanics is your mathematical/thematic attempt to create that idea as a class. So a Miss on the class.

Warlord wasn't called a Miss in the two posts with the name of the class in it, but both said it seemed sub par. Speaking for myself, it looks absolutely terrible. Gives very minor non-scaling or very-slowly-scaling bonuses to everyone, which is nice, if it ever did anything else. Which it does not. Not even worth dipping. Definitely a Miss.

War Master is even worse. A bunch of crappy abilities that are made even crappier by a tight per day limit. I don't think i'd even want this if they came for free. Definitely a miss.

Witch Hunter looks more promising - wis to damage class level times per day (per attack, though, not per full attack), dispel magic punch as a full round action at level 5 class level/2 times per day, a bunch of talents... those talents are terrible, though. Like, I don't even really WANT any of them, terrible. And you don't get anything else at all from the class. It's not even the tier 1ness of mages that will stop them from being witch hunted, it's just the fact this class is terrible. Miss.

[eggs]

I should probably throw out some disclaimers that I don't mean to endorse any of those rankings, or to contradict them with the disclaimer. I haven't read the classes, and I haven't read the thread. That's just the OP reformatted for personal use, and posted as an afterthought.

If the OP or anyone else wants to defend those ratings, they should feel free, but I don't want to give the impression of a say in either direction.

[Novawurmson]

I'm actually reviewing the Clever Godling, but I'm having trouble sorting through what's unique about it and what it shares with the other Godlings :P

Anyway, I feel like there needs to be a third option between "hit" and "miss"; maybe "ball"?

There are a few classes (the Witch Hunter comes to mind most readily) that are excellently balanced for a low optimization game, but terribly balanced once you get into high/theoretical optimization. If your hunting down necromancers who live in the spooky graveyard, make zombies, and throw debuffs at you, the Witch Hunter thrives; if you're hunting a necromancer who lives in a spooky graveyard, makes zombies, throws debuffs at you, turns invisible, summons demons from other planes, flies, stops time, and teleports around the room, the Witch Hunter has a much harder time without party support/item support, but could still function, potentially - it's just not completely in his class features. I still feel the Witch Hunter would be better than the Fighter in situation 2, they just wouldn't be able to handle it on their own - and they probably shouldn't just be a tier 1 class. Overall, I think the Witch Hunter is a well-designed class, it's just you can't expect a tier 4 to stomp an optimized tier 1 (inherently game breaking class).

Maybe if there was a stoplight method: Red Light (poor), Yellow Light (care), and Green Light (good)?

Edit: Clever Godling

For the Clever Godling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/clever-godling): Tier 3-4. Same great fluff, but supposedly from a more Rogue-y perspective. Same list of Divine Traits, which are still good. The problem is that it shares almost all of its Scion Talents with the Mighty Godling, who has full BAB and a d12 HD. Sure, you can pick up things like 1d6 Sneak Attack (once), Trapfinding, and Evasion, but after that... it's just a weaker base. If you really need skill points, play a Human, take Open Minded, and put your favored class bonus points into skill points. This had potential, but they didn't differentiate it enough from the Mighty Godling. I'll give it a Yellow Light: It's a functional, interesting class that's mostly relegated as unnecessary by classes produced in the same book as it.

[Rejakor]

The thing I feel makes the Witch Hunter a miss isn't just that it can't actually hunt semi-optimized Witches - it's that the class itself is boring and crappy.

Personally I don't consider good/medium BAB and 2 good saves to be a class feature. If all the class does is minor stuff, why are you taking levels in it? A paladin makes a MUCH better witch hunter than the Witch Hunter, as they get another stat to saves. As does an inquisitor, because they can ferret out people hiding and do other stuff that might kill a witch.

Currently the Witch Hunter is more like a Witch Fighter, but even a fighter can select class features and feats to be more thematically appropriate at it's job than the witch hunter.

I mean, this class gives you some conditional bonuses to saves, if you spend the talents on it, but.. meh? It's just, if you build one of these at level 5, 10, 15... and compare it to any other class, sure, it can swing a sword for marginal damage, but, y'know, so can a warrior. PC classes should not be the same as NPC classes in that regard.

If they actually wanted to make a witch hunter it should have had some combination of the following;

Adding a stat to saves

A way to hide from/be immune to divinations

Bonus damage versus spellcasters

Partial (per day or conditional) immunity to blasting spells

Partial (per day or conditional) immunity to SoD/SoS spells

The ability to ferret out hiding spellcasters

Branching out from the original theme at about level 8, to include other stuff (undead, outsiders, other magical stuff like constructs maybe) to shut down or be immune to.

A few class features that make them work well with churches

A few class features that make them decent rogues for when the party is not fighting spellcasters/spellcasting outsiders/the product of spells


It doesn't do ANY of that, and so, miss.

[Chained Birds]

Updated the OP list to have the current standings on what are considered Hits or Misses.

I could add a "ball" category, but I figure that if you at least think the class is playable from Lvl 1-20 and you would allow a player to choose the class in a campaign where an identical tier leveled Base Class would work (ex: Tier 5 Knight (2) = Tier 5 Fighter), then I feel it is a Hit.

I'm not expecting a good DM to be okay with the player wanting to play a Knight (2) in a campaign filled with epic level Tier 1s and a party consisting of Tier 1-2 classes, anymore than allowing that player to play a Fighter. It wouldn't be fair to the player in the end...

-------

So, now I'm getting a Miss on Witch Hunter. Hmm, maybe.

Edit: OP updated with eggs's Table and current Miss vs Hit standings on the classes.