The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

[jseah]

Previous Thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256776

Someone can collect the links to previous story posts if you want. I think it starts on page 2? Maybe?

I'd hunt for them, but I've yet to meet the day's word quota for Nanowrimo.

Also, I'll try to post everyday, but the length might get a bit shorter since I still have to write 2k words somewhere else. =(

Collection of story posts:
http://sync.in/ep/pad/view/ro.f7Ii2bq8IM01rFxsOm/latest

[Forum Explorer]

Does NaNoWriMo deny fanfiction? Because you should use this story then.

[The Glyphstone]

Previous Thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256776

Someone can collect the links to previous story posts if you want. I think it starts on page 2? Maybe?

I'd hunt for them, but I've yet to meet the day's word quota for Nanowrimo.

Also, I'll try to post everyday, but the length might get a bit shorter since I still have to write 2k words somewhere else. =(

Just apply Chandler's Law to your story updates and you'll be fine.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm collecting the previous stories, editing them very slightly, and will post a mediafire link soon.

Also, have you decided how or what will be done to get the Rogue Trader access to a bunch of IoM-Standard blueprints (both recreations of STC and non, ie, more 'recent's stuff?)? Have you decided what will be in there? Based on what is or isn't in there, there could be some issues... I'll PM you some ideas on that, maybe.

Also, there are some plotline threads still hanging for Part 6, like seeing how the IoM fights Chaos (including recovering from a Chaos incursion), or other Rogue Trader stuff... as well as the ships going near the Eye of Terror...

I'm also very interested in Chaos contacting them directly; after all, Chaos Sorcerers should have some future-reading or Future Sight, and at least some aspects of Chaos (especially some Tzeentch-based Warlords and the Dark Mechanicum) should be trying to contact them...

Also! NaNoWriMo:

"What genres are okay? Can I write fanfiction? How about a memoir?

Any genre of novel is okay for NaNoWriMo. Yes, really, any genre. Fan fiction is okay. Steamy adult content is okay (as long as you are careful about where you post it!). Memoir is a sticky one; as long as it is fictionalized, it is okay, too. We just want you to be excited about writing. If what you’re writing doesn’t qualify as a lengthy work of fiction, we’ve set up a group for NaNo Rebels in the forums."

[Fan]

One thing I'd like to see is that when the team near the core triggered that hypermaze trap, that whoever was lost, and their attached culture gear got hidden away by that Necron Lord.

It'd be pretty interesting to see what some Crypteks would do with some CREW'S or Mirror field devices.

[The Glyphstone]

One thing I'd like to see is that when the team near the core triggered that hypermaze trap, that whoever was lost, and their attached culture gear got hidden away by that Necron Lord.

It'd be pretty interesting to see what some Crypteks would do with some CREW'S or Mirror field devices.

Argue and/or fight over them, probably. Necrons are almost as bad in the 'Not Invented Here' syndrome as Eldar...Necrons at least will recognize superior technology, but they'll keep it for themselves rather than try to replicate or reverse-engineer it, since their culture connects rarity with status.

[Selrahc]

It'd be pretty interesting to see what some Crypteks would do with some CREW'S or Mirror field devices.

Absolutely nothing. Culture tech is locked down tight. Culturetech doesn't work at all for anybody outside the Culture. Equivtech stuff is locked down even tighter, and most of their wargear has brains. If tampering starts up, then the high likelihood is that things will self destruct.

[Tavar]

Would you mind if I collect/edit(including recon) the stuff into a google doc or fanfiction.net story?

As for NaNoWriMo, I think FF is discouraged(you can't publish it), but not forbidden.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

From the last thread:


Seriously?

If you go by what we would do if we could design our own bodies, there'll be a hell of alot of wings. Both feather and butterfly style ones, although probably ornamental. Gods, can you imagine how overworked the service bots would be cleaning up the feathers.
EDIT: Hell, if I could do that, even I would go for a pair of white feather wings for a couple of years.

And some mermaids. And pre-puberty body plans (it also works better with wings if you want to actually fly so there's that too).

I can also see some people going for tentacles, or turn into a distributed intelligence of a hive... =/

That actually happens quite a bit, including your last two examples specifically. In Excession, one ambassador to an alien species (the Affront, floating methane breathers who resemble jellyfish/squid hybrids) decides to trade out his human body for an Affront body for a while to better enjoy his time on their planet. In Matter, one SC agent becomes a member of an alien species whose name I don't remember that's basically a sea urchin with 20-foot tentacles that branch off into fine manipulators, which involves moving his mind to an artificial brain and setting up a distributed nervous system in the body with it.

One man in Excession (I think it's the ambassador but it might be someone else, it's been a while) has grown wings and really likes them, but he removes them and his neural lace while on a particular planet for the duration of a "back to nature" celebration when everyone gives up some sort of augmentation and enjoys being unmodified for a while. It's also mentioned in Matter that there are some more obscure and out-there transformations (like becoming a four-dimensional energy being) that are basically irreversible due to how different they are from the baseline humanoid.

Wings, gills, altered senses, and such are less common due to the prevalence of antigravity, the ability to modify bodies to different gravities and atmospheres at will, the ability to gland chemicals to alter perceptions, and so forth. The sort of people who would want to turn themselves into bird-people can instead simply use an AG rig to go flying for a while, which is more convenient than wings in everyday life and also comes with the ability to breathe in higher atmosphere, on-board AI navigation, etc. If they want to try wings until the novelty wears off, they can do that too, and I'm guessing that's why most people look "normal"--the gross physical augmentations can be duplicated in more subtle versions, so unless you're specifically going for a certain visual it's often easier to use the subtle version.

[Gavinfoxx]

THE STORY SO FAR (EDITED):

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?ub9nk5i779ttncq

Note: be sure to download it, dont look at it in the preview screen.

I did edit most of the OOC out, and added some paragraph spaces where Jseah didn't put any, but I gave up on doing that after a while... that's why there are two different spacing methods.

[Fan]

Absolutely nothing. Culture tech is locked down tight. Culturetech doesn't work at all for anybody outside the Culture. Equivtech stuff is locked down even tighter, and most of their wargear has brains. If tampering starts up, then the high likelihood is that things will self destruct.

Not if they're kept in stasis fields. They themselves would be trapped in one moment in time. They'd never act, even if they did have minds.

[Forum Explorer]

Not if they're kept in stasis fields. They themselves would be trapped in one moment in time. They'd never act, even if they did have minds.

but then the Necrons couldn't do anything with them either.


THE STORY SO FAR:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?lcmp9majr8fb0km

I used Mediafire's 'Edit File' beta feature to copy and paste the changes I had made in notepad++... it should be relatively updated, even though the link is the same.

I did edit most of the OOC out, and added some paragraph spaces where Jseah didn't put any, but I gave up on doing that after a while... that's why there are two different spacing methods.

Every page contains one sentence and no more.

[Fan]

but then the Necrons couldn't do anything with them either.

They can observe external matrixes, use X-Ray equipment to gaze within.

Tons of stuff, but no physical manipulation or testing.

They could also use their ability to isolate shards of time (they use it passively for defense in tabletop, Harbinger of Eternity Crypteks.) to break it into pieces once they've studied the components and gaze into it's inner workings.

[Gavinfoxx]

Every page contains one sentence and no more.

@)#(*!@_#$*

That's weird... when I go to Edit it, it looks fine...

Ah well. I suppose I will delete it and upload the file without using their beta 'edit file' feature.

How about now?

[Spamotron]

@)#(*!@_#$*

That's weird... when I go to Edit it, it looks fine...

Ah well. I suppose I will delete it and upload the file without using their beta 'edit file' feature.

How about now?

For me the formatting is all screwed up and every other sentence cuts off in the middle.

[Gavinfoxx]

You are downloading it, right? Not opening it in the preview screen?

[Parra]

They can observe external matrixes, use X-Ray equipment to gaze within.

Tons of stuff, but no physical manipulation or testing.


If all the Stasis field does is stop physical manipulation but still allowed X-rays and other energy to pass through, then they are a lot less threatening to the Culture than they first appeared to be. In fact, it would allow the Culture to just use its Displacers to whip something out of the stasis field entirely.

Edit:

You are downloading it, right? Not opening it in the preview screen?

Its working fine for me

[Gavinfoxx]

How much does a stasis field protect from external influence though?

Also, shouldn't The Culture have designs for IoM time manipulation by now? Shouldn't they be freaked out by that??

[Fan]

If all the Stasis field does is stop physical manipulation but still allowed X-rays and other energy to pass through, then they are a lot less threatening to the Culture than they first appeared to be. In fact, it would allow the Culture to just use its Displacers to whip something out of the stasis field entirely.

Edit:


Its working fine for me

Hmm, I may be incorrect, let me see if they st- yeah they do stop directed energy weapons, I'm dumb.

Still, Crypteks do have the ability to isolate objects from time, there's no reason why they couldn't just isolate one part of the object from the rest in time and slowly take it apart, even an ongoing fusion reaction is only dangerous to the touch frozen in time.

[Gavinfoxx]

If they stop DEW, why doesn't the IoM use them defensively?

[Fan]

If they stop DEW, why doesn't the IoM use them defensively?

Because the IOM has Void Shields that also work against the warp, and also stop all of (their) conventional energy weapons.

Stasis fields are also used for medical purposes in the IOM, and their emitters don't get much larger due to tech constraints. It is also VERY DIFFERENT from being frozen in time the entire thing that's stopping them from self destructing.

What I am describing is a Harbinger of Eternity using his Aeon stave in a method similar to what he does for defense (displacing rounds into shards of time), and instead using it to dismantle and compartmentalize the captured Culturetech for other Crypteks to study, but also due to their nature of being frozen in time and behind stasis fields, and various other Necron Tech (Likely in a Lord's vault being studied for use in his own personal gear, and carefully guarded against even other Necrons.), and the tech having effectively "vanished" due to being trapped in time, preventing the culture from knowing they have it.

It's complicated, but it's there, and I'd imagine given that this world's own lord is mad the first among the Necron challengers who would come to claim these new items would be Trayzn the Infinite.

[Gavinfoxx]

Maybe someone on one of The Culture ships should be like, 'Hmmm, if these Necrons have time-distorting tech, maybe there is other time-distorting tech elsewhere in this galaxy that we haven't recognized. Why don't we take a closer look at these Forge World plans?' At which point they can probably look at the plans for Stasis Fields and similar, with which they can maybe develop some more applications of localized time distortion, a technology they really haven't explored at all?

Also, I was thinking of things on smaller scale than Void Shields, which is for Big Stuff Only; like as supplemental to vehicle-scale Power Fields or something.

Also, when they finally get to analyzing the bodies of the Tyranids, the ideas for their biological sciences should increase dramatically. The base technology and capability, likely no... the idea fodder for creativity and things to do with biology? Definitely!

[The Glyphstone]

\
It's complicated, but it's there, and I'd imagine given that this world's own lord is mad the first among the Necron challengers who would come to claim these new items would be Trayzn the Infinite.

Who is in harsh competition with Nemesor Zandrekh for 'coolest Necron Special Character', so I'd be okay with him making a cameo appearance, particularly since the Nemesor wouldn't fit the story except (briefly) across a battle line.

And I forgot how the Culture boobytraps their gear. So the Crypteks would blow themselves up a few times, then abandon their efforts, study what they could through a stasis field, and otherwise abandon the attempt. Cue Trazyn showing up to acquire some nifty new toys for his museum.

[Fan]

Who is in harsh competition with Nemesor Zandrekh for 'coolest Necron Special Character', so I'd be okay with him making a cameo appearance, particularly since the Nemesor wouldn't fit the story except (briefly) across a battle line.

Honestly I do just kinda want to see him in here.

I'm also a big Sanguinus fan, so that's also why I was pushing him.

But the idea I posited DOES work, and it does make sense given how Phareonship of a world is passed is through single combat.

So I could see Trayzn coming in, zapping all the current nutty lords with his staff of Obliteration, and claiming the world for himself, and claiming what his Ethermancers saw in the stars for himself.

He'd also be the most likely to replicate, and study it. If only out of curiosity.

[The Glyphstone]

Honestly I do just kinda want to see him in here.

I'm also a big Sanguinus fan, so that's also why I was pushing him.

Yeah, but one of those options is a more 'realistic' one by several significant orders of magnitude. The Culture would have to know of Sanguinis's importance to even consider attempting to revive him somehow, and if they did, they wouldn't try it because of the upheaval it'd cause. Only once they'd revealed themselves and the Imperium was falling to pieces anyways would it be worth it.



So I could see Trayzn coming in, zapping all the current nutty lords with his staff of Obliteration, and claiming the world for himself, and claiming what his Ethermancers saw in the stars for himself.

He'd also be the most likely to replicate, and study it. If only out of curiosity.

That, and him being a historian and all, he knows a ton of stuff, stuff the Culture would want to know, and he might be able to finagle that knowledge into a trade for working Culture doodads.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, I am actually quite interested in The Culture getting to a point where they talked to named characters. Like characters that we know and care about in the canon of 40k itself. Whether it is an Astartes hero or a Tau renegade or a particular Eldar Farseer...

Does anyone have any particular named character that they want to see have dialogue with The Culture?

[Misery Esquire]

Does anyone have any particular named character that they want to see have dialogue with The Culture?

The Emperor. Alright, how about Fulgrim. No... Lorgar? Wait, they need to learn about the Warp so what about Magnus?

Okay, I can't pick a character that they should actually meet.

[The Glyphstone]

The Emperor. Alright, how about Fulgrim. No... Lorgar? Wait, they need to learn about the Warp so what about Magnus?

Okay, I can't pick a character that they should actually meet.

Cypher. So they can be as confused as we are.

Is he even still canon?

[Tiki Snakes]

Bearing in mind that I only know of him via meme, but there's a fellow springs to mind. Ciaphas Cain hero of the imperium?

[Gavinfoxx]

Fixed it for you...


Ciaphas Cain, Hero of the Imperium!

Oh My GOD YES.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't think the thread could withstand the awesome. If Cain does make an appearance, it should be an unnamed cameo.

[Gavinfoxx]

Have we figured out a particular date, so we can figure out what events have and haven't happened, which named individuals are alive or not, and (roughly) where they are in their adventures?

Also. If we can encourage Jseah to read every Ciaphas Cain book and short story ever, this can only be a good thing. He's been sent as a diplomat before, right?

[Fan]

Have we figured out a particular date, so we can figure out what events have and haven't happened, which named individuals are alive or not, and (roughly) where they are in their adventures?

Also. If we can encourage Jseah to read every Ciaphas Cain book and short story ever, this can only be a good thing. He's been sent as a diplomat before, right?

Rejuvenation treatments would keep most named characters alive.

[Gavinfoxx]

Rejuvenation treatments would keep most named characters alive.

Or they might not have been born yet, or might be 'lost', depending on the exact date, right?

[The Glyphstone]

Have we figured out a particular date, so we can figure out what events have and haven't happened, which named individuals are alive or not, and (roughly) where they are in their adventures?

Also. If we can encourage Jseah to read every Ciaphas Cain book and short story ever, this can only be a good thing. He's been sent as a diplomat before, right?

A murky, indefinite time after the year 41,000. We're treating the timeline with as much respect as GW is.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Does anyone have any particular named character that they want to see have dialogue with The Culture?
Alpharius and/or Omegon. Because nobody would confuse The Culture more than Alpha Legion (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion#.UJMWfIaE7ls) :smallamused:

[Tavar]

For those interested, here is a google document (https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IeYvhXSrOVWjs6dixd-FhPjONdwK0nPjWsMZtqFUo8Q). Still updating it to be in line with recons and the like.

Anyone following that link can comment on the story so far. If you see something that needs correcting, bring it up.

Also included is one non-canon segment, as well as a run down of the Culture's 'let's screw the Imperium plan' as well as the Necron's realizations about the Culture.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, the C'Tan Shards themselves might actually be physically impossible to destroy. Just saying. Not impossible to defeat, but impossible to ever completely destroy...

Also, Jseah: According to the latest codex, a Tomb World, once the wake-up process has begun, might take decades or centuries to completely wake up. I think this doesn't make any sense.. but you can do whatever. Maybe only the inhabitants are waking up, the actual processes might take longer, or there are lots of components that aren't waking up right, or whatever... Also, there are codes of 'honourable war' that some Necrons adhered to; The Culture might be able to, even if they end up at war with this particular Tomb World, impress them enough (they are immortal! IMMORTAL!) that they apply their codes of honor to The Culture. There even is a bit about some Necrons seeking to end 'The curse of biotransference' by seeking a biological entity to host their minds. Apparently that idea weighed heavily on the Silent King's mind as he issued the final biotransference command. Surely The Culture would be able to fix the issues with Biotransference, if they get enough of an insight into Necron tech and history and 'culture'...

Also, their is some weeiiirrrd tech in Necron tombworlds. One of the tomb worlds has an Orrery of the galaxy which can, if they snuff the light of the star out in the Orrery, will cause the relevant star to go Supernova 'long millennia before its destined time'...

[Forum Explorer]

A murky, indefinite time after the year 41,000. We're treating the timeline with as much respect as GW is.

So none at all then? :smalltongue:


Anyways if Cain is showing up then Amberly would be right behind him for maximum snark potential.

[The Glyphstone]

So none at all then? :smalltongue:



http://www.instantrimshot.com



Anyways if Cain is showing up then Amberly would be right behind him for maximum snark potential.

It'd have to wait for a time, at the best. Cain is terrified of Necrons.

[Tavar]

How long is it after the 13th black crusade? That matters for Cain.

[The Glyphstone]

Only to a point - we've got a one to two century leeway space, since Cain canonically 'came back from the dead' so many times that the Administratum finally gave up listing him as dead and so his official date of death is unknown.

[Forum Explorer]

Only to a point - we've got a one to two century leeway space, since Cain canonically 'came back from the dead' so many times that the Administratum finally gave up listing him as dead and so his official date of death is unknown.

Actually he doesn't have a date of death at all. The order to just assume he was alive was never overturned. :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

Actually he doesn't have a date of death at all. The order to just assume he was alive was never overturned. :smallbiggrin:

That's what I mean, yeah. He has no official date of death, and we can only get a rough estimate for an unofficial one.

[jseah]

Also, have you decided how or what will be done to get the Rogue Trader access to a bunch of IoM-Standard blueprints (both recreations of STC and non, ie, more 'recent's stuff?)? Have you decided what will be in there? Based on what is or isn't in there, there could be some issues... I'll PM you some ideas on that, maybe.
Yes, RT guy is next. The basic idea is, he gets some mercenaries, gets into hot water with the Ad Mech and Ordo Xenos (who have connected the dots and are hunting anything that looks too high tech) and goes away into interstellar space.

He then decides to go raid a Warp-stormed (but real space accessible) planet in hopes of loot and treasure and runs across a Khorne chaos warband stumbling around trying to find the Culture.
At this point, the Culture's cover gets blown as the Chaos people demand to talk. The RT guy blows them out of space anyway and the SC agent tells him about the Culture.
I haven't decided what his reaction will be. Especially since the SC agent will also tell him that the Culture aren't going let him talk to other IoM people about them and they can watch him *very* closely.


Also, there are some plotline threads still hanging for Part 6, like seeing how the IoM fights Chaos (including recovering from a Chaos incursion), or other Rogue Trader stuff... as well as the ships going near the Eye of Terror...
Yes, there's also the Eldar. And the Orks. And the Eye of Terror.

There's a minor note about Ordo Xenos activity as well.


I'm also very interested in Chaos contacting them directly; after all, Chaos Sorcerers should have some future-reading or Future Sight, and at least some aspects of Chaos (especially some Tzeentch-based Warlords and the Dark Mechanicum) should be trying to contact them...
And I guess we can have this. A cultist can do the same thing as the Eldar, and the Culture will probably try to talk, but with lots of security (communicate by dead tree storage only and scan the stuff to read it, not actually touching the things)


Also! NaNoWriMo:
Unfortunately, I already have an entire book planned. You may have noticed my comments in the Nanowrimo thread, but I already have more than enough material. I just need to write that book. Thanks anyway.

[The Glyphstone]

RT: I knew you were hiding something, but couldn't figure out what.
SC: Yeah, I'm actually a spy for a gigantic extragalactic civilization with technology and powers beyond your wildest dreams
RT: Cool. Now, how can I use that to get rich(er)?

[jseah]

One thing I'd like to see is that when the team near the core triggered that hypermaze trap, that whoever was lost, and their attached culture gear got hidden away by that Necron Lord.

It'd be pretty interesting to see what some Crypteks would do with some CREW'S or Mirror field devices.
There's a drone stuck in a hypermaze trap, assumed dead and reloaded by the Culture (there's two of it, but only one is running around now).
But the stasis field that caught half of Expy 7 had its generators blown up and we agreed that uncontrolled winding down of a stasis field destroys everything in it, so all of those are gone.

But yeah, the Necrons have one drone, which they aren't letting out of the maze yet.

Hmm... how would the Necrons react to a demand from the Culture that they return any captured artifacts? (with an implied threat of offensive action to recover them if the Culture detects he has kept some)
--- The logic being that it's only fair that since the Culture returned Necron stuff, the Necrons should return Culture stuff. Of course, Necrons might not understand fairness, hence why there's some teeth to back it up


As for taking time to power up again, let's have it that after everyone's awake, there's still alot of repair work and preparation to do before he can strike out and do things.
In any case, I was intending him to send a ship out in part 7 looking for his Crownworld. And the question I've been meaning to ask is what is the Necron FTL mechanism?

[jseah]

RT: I knew you were hiding something, but couldn't figure out what.
SC: Yeah, I'm actually a spy for a gigantic extragalactic civilization with technology and powers beyond your wildest dreams
RT: Cool. Now, how can I use that to get rich(er)?

SC: Why do you need to get rich? Here, with this tech and this tech, which we are going to give you, you can have anything you want. Including turning any asteroid into a new battleship and cloning your crew to run it. Yes, we have working cloning and we are giving it to you. Now will you work for us?

[The Glyphstone]

SC: Why do you need to get rich? Here, with this tech and this tech, which we are going to give you, you can have anything you want. Including turning any asteroid into a new battleship and cloning your crew to run it. Yes, we have working cloning and we are giving it to you. Now will you work for us?

RT: How much are you paying?

[Gavinfoxx]

And the question I've been meaning to ask is what is the Necron FTL mechanism?

Oldcron: Basically Culture Hyperspace, I think. Or one of the Culture equiv-techs, which you already said was different, but that might be that they access it in a different way than the Culture was expecting.
Newcron: Hijack Eldar Webway.


I would strongly suggest you go with Oldcron for this.

[willpell]

Responding to a post by Jseah from the previous thread (not answered in that one, I dunno if it has been here):


Actually, this bit bothers me about his works. I mean, the Culture has all this control over biology (it's basically miracle working here) and everyone's an almost-standard human?

Seriously?

It's mentioned in Excession that people used to turn themselves into all manner of weird shapes, but that this behavior has fallen out of fashion in recent centuries. Essentially it was a fad, and the novelty wore off, so now it's the sort of thing you might do as a teenager or something, especially in private, but probably wouldn't make a lifestyle out of. Though it also seems to vary by local (small-c) culture; one of the minor viewpoint characters is a resident on the Tier habitat, who has wings himself and who is shown hooking up with a girl that has four arms. So there are some places like Tier where that sort of thing is more common than in other places, such as Phage Rock, for various reasons of socialization (which assume very significantly increased importance in a society as peaceful and non-utilitarian as the Culture; being fashionable and well-thought-of is practically a state religion).

[The Glyphstone]

I'd favor Oldcron FTL as well. The Webway barely works for the Eldar with various branches corrupted, cut off, or damaged, it'd be extremely impractical for the Necrons who only have access to sporadic chunks.

[jseah]

RT: How much are you paying?
Lolz. The Culture can pay whatever asking price he wants. Hell, he can turn an asteroid into Thrones if he wants.

But seriously, do they not understand anything other than money? Like, maybe he doesn't _need_ money anymore?


How about these, in order of what the Culture is likely to try:

"after you investigate so and so warp rift, you can upgrade to a full citizen and join us in happy land"

"you have the chance to fight Chaos for the Imperium. You have the ability to do more than the imperial guard and space marines combined. You can be the most powerful person in the entire IoM apart from the Emperor. "

"we intend to reform the Imperium after we secure from Chaos. You can have a hand in it and we will listen to your advice. You have the chance to decide the future of the whole IoM. Is that enough power for you?"

[jseah]

It's mentioned in Excession that people used to turn themselves into all manner of weird shapes, but that this behavior has fallen out of fashion in recent centuries.
=D Clearly, I have been reading the wrong books.

Never mind me then.

[willpell]

=D Clearly, I have been reading the wrong books.

Never mind me then.

Well I can't really recommend Excession as your first Culture book to read, though I have yet to encounter any of the others. It's....good, but a bit strange. An acquired taste, if you will. Granted the same might be true of the Culture in general, but this book in particular, since a LOT of it is told from the viewpoint of the Minds, making it a fair bit more "foreign" than the several stories which focus mostly on an outsider on some backward planet, doing the Culture's dirty work while seeing them only from a fair distance (this is all me going by Wikipedia summaries so I apologize if I'm misrepresenting anything).

[Gavinfoxx]

=D Clearly, I have been reading the wrong books.

Never mind me then.

Yes, you clearly have to set everything else you are doing down, and read these:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ciaphas_Cain_%28Novel_Series%29

Okay, really, you only have to read the two compilation books... (Hero and Defender), but after that, you'll be good.

And then have Ciaphas end up, somehow, as a diplomat to The Culture... with Amberley in tow, of course. And you positively must do it in the style of one of Ciaphas's irreverent and innacurate narratives, with Amberley as a talkative editor!

[The Glyphstone]

Lolz. The Culture can pay whatever asking price he wants. Hell, he can turn an asteroid into Thrones if he wants.

But seriously, do they not understand anything other than money? Like, maybe he doesn't _need_ money anymore?


How about these, in order of what the Culture is likely to try:

"after you investigate so and so warp rift, you can upgrade to a full citizen and join us in happy land"

"you have the chance to fight Chaos for the Imperium. You have the ability to do more than the imperial guard and space marines combined. You can be the most powerful person in the entire IoM apart from the Emperor. "

"we intend to reform the Imperium after we secure from Chaos. You can have a hand in it and we will listen to your advice. You have the chance to decide the future of the whole IoM. Is that enough power for you?"

No, he gets all that, but he also wants to hedge his bets. You don't get to be a Rogue Trader by playing it safe, but you don't succeed as a Rogue Trader if you put all your eggs in one basket. The Culture is making big, grandiose promises, and while they've certainly shown their chops, he's not going to dismiss the possibility that it's all a scam right up until the very end when he's actually being crowned High Lord of Cultureterra...so he'll want a nest egg just in case the whole thing goes down the tubes and the Culture has to run away (taking its nifty supertech with it).


Yes, you clearly have to set everything else you are doing down, and read these:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ciaphas_Cain_%28Novel_Series%29

Okay, really, you only have to read the two compilation books... (Hero and Defender), but after that, you'll be good.

And then have Ciaphas end up, somehow, as a diplomat to The Culture... with Amberley in tow, of course.

I think Cain would be deeply uncomfortable with the Culture, but more to the point, a Cain story isn't a Cain story unless he has to go on some dangerous, hairbrained mission. There won't be any dangerous hairbrained missions to go on within a few lightyears of the Culture, because anything a human considers 'dangerous and hairbrained' is Tuesday to SC.

[Misery Esquire]

"after you investigate so and so warp rift, you can upgrade to a full citizen and join us in happy land"

Oh god run away. Warp Rift = Best Chance to have your ship eaten by a giant disembodied tongue this side of Lovecraft.



"you have the chance to fight Chaos for the Imperium. You have the ability to do more than the imperial guard and space marines combined. You can be the most powerful person in the entire IoM apart from the Emperor."

And the profit margin, and proof to present are...?



"we intend to reform the Imperium after we secure from Chaos. You can have a hand in it and we will listen to your advice. You have the chance to decide the future of the whole IoM. Is that enough power for you?"

Too much power, with too much risk. Also, mortal terror of the Emperor personally disapproving. It's one thing to flaunt His laws a million lightyears away. On his doorstep*, not so much.

*Metaphysical, political, or physical. It's the Emperor. He's everywhere. Watching you. (Cielingcat is the Emperor's best buddy while they hang out watching. Eeeeverything.)

[Gavinfoxx]

I think Cain would be deeply uncomfortable with the Culture, but more to the point, a Cain story isn't a Cain story unless he has to go on some dangerous, hairbrained mission. There won't be any dangerous hairbrained missions to go on within a few lightyears of the Culture, because anything a human considers 'dangerous and hairbrained' is Tuesday to SC.

I'm completely sure that some kind of dangerous and hairbrained mission can come up. Really. I trust Jseah to come up with something plausible. Cain is like... the super SC. Hell, he'd probably end up co-opted into an official liason to a SC team as they end up in some kind of absolutely awesome ADVENTURE!

And yes, I would agree that he would be deeply uncomfortable with the Culture.

[jseah]

Warp Rift diving is probably dangerous, Culture-tech or no.


No, he gets all that, but he also wants to hedge his bets. You don't get to be a Rogue Trader by playing it safe, but you don't succeed as a Rogue Trader if you put all your eggs in one basket.
Ah, that's fair enough. I guess they can turn an asteroid into solid gold for him if he wants. I mean, after the matter-energy conversion tech, the SC agent herself can make his nest egg.

So, again. The Culture are just going to ask "What's your price?" Because all the Culture can give him is the basic science and plans to build... not-quite-equivi-tech but still good enough to trash anyone this side of reality short of a C'Tan.
And then they'll even turn it over to his Techpriests provided the techies agree to not run off to the Ad Mech (trying isn't likely to work). And even if none of them agree to, they can work out a mental implant for any particular crew member he cares to name that'll teach them how to use everything.

Hell, they can probably en-smarten his servitors.


After that, if he still wants to make an asteroid of solid thrones, he can do it. The Culture doesn't have to do it for him even. And obviously, they'll let him.

"You want a CAM launcher? Yes, first page twenty down. "
"You want a Lunar? Sure, just use so and so plan... although we recommend X and Y modification... *details*"
"You want a shipyard? Yeah that's ten pages over..."
"Asteroid miner? Solar statite collector? Antimatter manufacturing cyclotron? Space based hydroponics? All there. You have everything you need to start your own self-sufficient nation. "
"Thrones?! Seriously? Uh, ok, do you have a Throne we can scan? ... right, it's the new plan at the bottom. "
"You want to take over a planet? Are you sure you can handle it? Yes? Then go on ahead, you have free reign to do nearly whatever you want. You can call on us for help if you're getting in trouble. ... Oh, uh, just don't whack the Eldar or Necrons, it's kinda touchy. "

...

Hmm, how about. Backup services. The Culture gives him the tech (that doesn't include the ability to manufacture people) and will provide reloads from backup for eternity onwards in return for him doing some Chaos whacking on the side and serving as a possible contender for replacing the IoM's government.
(there are some rules as to the kind of government the Culture wants, namely a representative democracy, but they'll assure him that they'll only require elections until after they're done with Chaos)

[The Glyphstone]

He'll think they're insane - democracy's no way to run an empire, it'd all fall to pieces without someone in charge - but he'll go along with it as long as he has A) a way out (or thinks he does, whether or not they know about his bug-out plan), B) the aforementioned nest egg stashed away where he can bug out and get it, and C) an iron-clad guarantee that if it all goes balls up, he'll either get to come with them or be absolutely certain the Inquisition won't come after him once they're gone. Since they can easily provide all three, they've got themselves a pocket Rogue Trader.

[Gavinfoxx]

What you are saying is -- they want him to flat out defect from the Imperium, yes?

[jseah]

And the profit margin, and proof to present are...?
The profit margin is infinity. He'll finish off as the commander of a fleet more powerful the everyone in the galaxy combined (minus the Culture).

Proof:
- We have tactical FTL, and so do you now
- The nanobots and mass conversions can build anything you want, we have all the plans, and it can churn out a fleet faster than you think. Like, seriously, a Lunar won't even take a day
- Your weapons travel FTL and a basic CAM launcher, which by the way is tiny compared to your honking big laser, has planet cracking power
- We won't give you gridfire but you'll have effectors and Displacers, which are arguably more useful

- If you want a demonstration, we can set up a dummy ship to let you fight a mock battle with using IoM tech and you can see for yourself how one-sided it is. (it'll fire dummy shots, you can go crazy; don't worry, you won't even scratch the paint)

[jseah]

What you are saying is -- they want him to flat out defect from the Imperium, yes?
No, he'll defect regardless of whether he wants to or not. They can't let him go back to the Imperium with all that tech because it'll end up in Chaos hands. Especially not after the Chaos warband came after him yelling about the Culture. They don't want to destabilize the Imperium by letting them know there's some nigh-omnipotent aliens they can't touch sniffing around.

They'll explain it to him, rather gently, that he can defect or they'll let him set up shop in some solar system and live like a king. But he's never going back unless he agrees to help.
This also applies to the rest of his crew.

[Gavinfoxx]

So WHY do they want this guy to have, you know... a large part of the Imperium as his own personal fiefdom?

Seriously? He cant be the ideal person to run a Sector or something. I don't have any idea why the inevitable loss of life might remotely be a good idea. WHY do they want him to become a private warlord, able to do whatever he wants??

I get they can do it, but I don't see why they think it is a good idea!

Ah, you ninjaed me...

Also, you sure he should stumble across a Khornate group? They have the LEAST amount of future-reading and magic (Khorne hates the stuff...)

[jseah]

Because they need someone to go whack Chaos because they don't want to risk equivi-tech.

The IoM reform plan:
When they decide to reform the IoM, they need a puppet dictator (him) to make minimal waves. He'll strengthen central control, reduce bureacracy, crack the Ad Mech monopoly (there might be a problem with the Void Dragon around here) and generally simplify the system and make it more robust and less religious.
Then they reveal themselves when they're sure the whole thing won't just crash and burn.

So they can transition to democracy afterwards and then split it up over the course of about one generation while doing heavy social engineering. Once IoM culture is in line with something acceptable (which may take more than one generation), then they'll slowly bring up the tech level and absorb any section that wants to call itself the Culture.


Aka. something like the Azad in player of games. Or at least, how it might have gone down if Gurgeh was playing for real and shooting for the Emperor job.

[Forum Explorer]

Hmm he might refuse to help anyways. Most Rouge Traders are actually pretty loyal to the Imperium and the Emperor. Sure they may flat out ignore the laws sometimes but in a very real way they work to expand the Imperium and increase it's power.

[jseah]

Also, you sure he should stumble across a Khornate group? They have the LEAST amount of future-reading and magic (Khorne hates the stuff...)
... *searches for an excuse*

It's Tzeentch's fault! Yes, that works. =D

[Gavinfoxx]

It's Tzeentch's fault! Yes, that works. =D

Okay. That is actually a fantastic excuse (khornates are easy to manipulate!)

[Douglas]

Tzeentch manipulated some Khornites into being unwitting sacrificial pawns for him? Sounds good to me.

[jseah]

Hmm he might refuse to help anyways. Most Rouge Traders are actually pretty loyal to the Imperium and the Emperor. Sure they may flat out ignore the laws sometimes but in a very real way they work to expand the Imperium and increase it's power.
There's the other line too:
"you have the chance to fight Chaos for the Imperium. You have the ability to do more than the imperial guard and space marines combined. You can be the most powerful person in the entire IoM apart from the Emperor."

I mean, they can also explain that the Culture is determined to reform the IoM eventually. He can along with their plan and the Imperium may not suffer stupid amounts of casualties, or they come in and take it over overtly like they did the Azad and it _will_ suffer stupid amounts of casualties.

[jseah]

Tzeentch manipulated some Khornites into being unwitting sacrificial pawns for him? Sounds good to me.
Lol. It does give Tzeentch the chance to see how powerful the Culture is militarily. Even if he's testing the strength of a spin-off side, seeing the Khornate group get trashed ought to make some waves and perhaps bring forward the contacting the Culture schedule by quite a bit.

...
Then again, I'm being too logical about Tzeentch, aren't I? =(

[Douglas]

Tzeentch can be logical... sometimes... in limited subsets of his plotting. There will just be some other Tzeentchite faction with yet another scheme that happens to interfere.. maybe.

Disclaimer: I've never actually read a 40k book, but that seems to fit all the discussion I've seen.

Also, based on discussion and wiki articles, it seems to me that Chaos likely will - eventually - unite in a true concerted effort against The Culture. This will happen when the Chaos Gods become convinced that The Culture represents a genuine threat to their existence. I'm basing this on the fact that they did, as I recall, unite into a cohesive force to back Horus against the Emperor. When this happens, I would expect Tzeentch to temporarily drop the usual self-hindering portions of his scheming. This, plus the focused attention of pan-Chaos forces, should be the single greatest challenge 40k can present to The Culture. That's still a looooooooong way off, though, as it will take something on the scale of Emperor-in-his-prime-class psychic power or a feasible plan to permanently close off the Warp galaxy-wide to provide such a credible threat. As I recall, there is some indication that the Necrons might have had a plan for closing off the Warp before they lost the power to implement it, possibly involving mass production everywhere of the Cadian pylons, but that plan is of dubious canonicity.

On a random side note, the Chaos Gods draw their power and characterization from the minds and activities of the multitudes of mortals as I recall, and they all have major positive aspects as well as negative ones. It might occur to a Mind at some point to attempt to reform Chaos itself by deliberately starting and fostering an extremely large Chaos cult that is specifically devoted to the positive aspects of each Chaos God. I believe the concept of such a plan is sound, but it would suffer from enormous problems with practical implementation - the cultists might influence the Chaos Gods, but they would also be opening themselves up to Chaos influencing them, and unless the cult started out with sufficient magnitude to dominate it would quickly get twisted towards the existing dominant aspects of Chaos. The Eldar would no doubt point this out if consulted (and the Mind would immediately back down from such a risk), but it might spark some interesting discussion.

[The Glyphstone]

Lol. It does give Tzeentch the chance to see how powerful the Culture is militarily. Even if he's testing the strength of a spin-off side, seeing the Khornate group get trashed ought to make some waves and perhaps bring forward the contacting the Culture schedule by quite a bit.

...
Then again, I'm being too logical about Tzeentch, aren't I? =(

Tzeentch is extremely logical. It's just not always logic that a human brain is capable of following. It doesn't literally deliberately screw itself over at every opportunity. In this case, manipulating a Khornate warband into 'scouting' for it is a pretty base-level plan, so it's also likely to be straightforward in its intentions. Tzeentch likes win-win situations, and whether the Khorne-worshippers win or lose, it wins.

And yeah, Rogue Traders are loyal to the Emperor. If the whole plan is presented as an effort to reform the Imperium, bring it back to its glory days and dig it out of the quagmire it's in, he'll be cautiously on board, particularly since he gets filthy rich and powerful as a side effect. Outright telling him they plan on getting rid of the Imperium and replacing it won't go over nearly as well.

[jseah]

Come to think of it, what are the Eldar's attitude towards the IoM?

If the Culture ask the Eldar for their opinion on the reform the IoM plan, what are the likely responses? (which will likely be along the lines of how to manipulate it to their advantage)

[Tiki Snakes]

I can't help but feel that installing a puppet dictator and attempting to reign in the religious aspects of the Imperium as quickly as a single generation is a recipe for widespread civil war and the fragmentation of the whole thing.

I wouldn't claim it's not what the Culture would try, but I'm really not sure it's a plan that will avoid major casualties.

Also, installing a Rogue Trader as a puppet anything seems to be a hilariously risky and naive plan, given that they tend to be incredibly arrogant, mildly deranged space pirates (who spend their career in the full knowledge that they basically have a permission slip from God telling them they can get away with most anything).

Any plan that involves making a Space Pirate the absolute ruler of anything that doesn't end in either tears or hilarity is a plan that I feel needs looking at again because I just don't buy it.

[Spamotron]

I can't help but feel that installing a puppet dictator and attempting to reign in the religious aspects of the Imperium as quickly as a single generation is a recipe for widespread civil war and the fragmentation of the whole thing.

I wouldn't claim it's not what the Culture would try, but I'm really not sure it's a plan that will avoid major casualties.

Also, installing a Rogue Trader as a puppet anything seems to be a hilariously risky and naive plan, given that they tend to be incredibly arrogant, mildly deranged space pirates (who spend their career in the full knowledge that they basically have a permission slip from God telling them they can get away with most anything).

Any plan that involves making a Space Pirate the absolute ruler of anything that doesn't end in either tears or hilarity is a plan that I feel needs looking at again because I just don't buy it.

One way Jseah could play it is that while the Culture normally prefers to do things slow and subtle over the course of a couple dozen generations the IoM is perpetuating oppression and atrocities on a scale the Culture has never witnessed before and can't stand watching so many trillions of innocent people suffer and die while they do things the slow and steady way. Even so I agree that a puppet dictator doesn't feel like their style at all, certainly not their first resort.

[The Glyphstone]

Come to think of it, what are the Eldar's attitude towards the IoM?

If the Culture ask the Eldar for their opinion on the reform the IoM plan, what are the likely responses? (which will likely be along the lines of how to manipulate it to their advantage)

Stupid primitive space monkeys who play their stupid primitive space monkey games while the intelligent and enlightened races (i.e., Eldar) go about doing important things, pretty much. It's hard to understate Eldar arrogance when it comes to anyone who's not Eldar - the only time they care about anything the Imperium does is when it has a chance of threatening one of their Craftworlds or Maiden Worlds.



One way Jseah could play it is that while the Culture normally prefers to do things slow and subtle over the course of a couple dozen generations the IoM is perpetuating oppression and atrocities on a scale the Culture has never witnessed before and can't stand watching so many trillions of innocent people suffer and die while they do things the slow and steady way. Even so I agree that a puppet dictator doesn't feel like their style at all, certainly not their first resort.

Or that their Minds have run the odds and realized they've already passed the 'crisis point' of intervention versus complete hands-off - sooner or later, Chaos will get their hands on Culture equiv-tech no matter how many precautions are taken, and if Chaos is still a legitimate military threat when that happens, the Culture has pretty much doomed everyone in the galaxy.

[Forum Explorer]

Come to think of it, what are the Eldar's attitude towards the IoM?

If the Culture ask the Eldar for their opinion on the reform the IoM plan, what are the likely responses? (which will likely be along the lines of how to manipulate it to their advantage)

Varies from Craftworld to Craftworld. One common unifying theme is disdain. Generally they don't like the Imperium and very much consider them a lesser civilization. At best the Eldar are reluctant teachers to the Imperium, in trying to inform the idiot humans on how to be civilized. More often the Eldar consider the Imperium to be useful if dangerous pawns to soak up damage that would otherwise require Eldar lives. At worst they consider the Imperium to be an infestation that'll one day need to be cleansed when the Eldar return to power.

They might just say the Culture is wasting their time. However if the Culture insists well they might say the most important thing to change is the anti-xenos stance of the Imperium. There isn't a good way to do that without leading to a civil war or slaughter of millions.

[The Glyphstone]

The Eldar really aren't that much further from a HS than the Necrons are, in that regard. It's definitely something to make the Culture even more uncomfortable about potentially taking a side in that eons-old conflict, especially since they and everyone else involved would know they were the kingmakers.

[Tiki Snakes]

My personal suspicion is that it would be entirely possible to ease the Imperium of Man out of it's rabidly Xenophobic hatred of aliens.

All it would really take is encountering an alien race who didn't have designs on the Imperium's planets, who weren't happy to murder Humans when it was convenient/funny/distracting, who didn't feel the need to tell humans how to do things or have any intention of advancing their own species at the expense of humanity. Maybe this theoretical race could spend its time swooping in to particularly dire battles and aiding Humanity fend off the nightmarish forces of Tyranid/Chaos/Ork/etc without asking for anything in return.

In essence, what the Imperium of Man needs is a big hug and for it's new friend to say "It's okay to be you."

But the Culture is not the race to do this. Their first response is to neutralise humanity, manipulate it into their way of thinking, maybe install a puppet dictator so they can alter the fabric of human society at their leisure. All for the best reasons of course, but that's kind of beside the point.

After all, the most benign factions in the setting are Eldar and Tau. One of which as mentioned above, might cheerfuly go back to exterminating humanity in order to reclaim their own empire the moment they feel they have the power to spare and the other of whom, despite spouting attractive noises about the greater good is still quite cheerfully following a course of territory expansion and so on.

[Forum Explorer]

The Eldar really aren't that much further from a HS than the Necrons are, in that regard. It's definitely something to make the Culture even more uncomfortable about potentially taking a side in that eons-old conflict, especially since they and everyone else involved would know they were the kingmakers.

Well according to the messed up time line we get, the Dark Age of Technology happened before the Eldar Fall. Which doesn't really make sense but okay sure. Anyways this means that the Humanity built up it's first civilization and the Eldar didn't try and wipe them out or anything like that.

Also since you sort of brought it up. Orks were almost certainly made to be a weapon. Eldar we're not sure. They share the same creator as the Orks but they may have been created first and not necessarily as a weapon.

[jseah]

Ok, so. Strategic Analysis time. From the perspective of the Culture and their overall goals.

"Who knows what" is not in play, I'll alter it for circumstance as proper. This is purely in terms of long term goals.

The Culture
The Culture's goals are happy fun times for everyone
- They wish to see everyone in the galaxy have a freedom-based culture where people's actions are restricted as little as possible, as long as they do not restrict the freedoms of others.
- They want nothing more than to have other people adopt a freedom-based culture and call themselves part of the Culture. But they can keep their name if they want

Misc. goal: Reduce warp sensitivity in general, propagate all methods to reduce warp exposure

Classifications and attitudes:
Chaos - High threat; steps to understand, control and neutralize will be taken; open war

IoM - Imperialistic state; behaviour and culture undesirable;
-- Situation highly fragile; target for reform, medium priority
-- Highly susceptible to Chaos, active intervention to detect and destroy Chaos intrusion in IoM recommended

Tau - Possible cooperative society; civilization and culture restrictive but acceptable
-- Situation progressive; target for reform, high priority due to anticipated ease
-- Chaos resistance

Eldar - Medium threat; high control of civilization (more than IoM);
-- Situation stable; attempt reform cautiously, low priority, possible chance of success over eon-length time frame
-- Unlikely to be Chaos vulnerable

Necrons - Medium threat; ridiculous levels of control of civilization
-- Situation stable; reform unlikely, attempt over long time frame
-- Chaos-immune

Tyranids & Orks - Low threat; HS, no reform possible; research and exterminate

Dark Eldar - Medium threat; civilization undesirable; reform unlikely...
-- borderline HS?
-- Unlikely to be Chaos vulnerable

The Eldar
Friendly initial contact
Most concerned over Culture vulnerability to Chaos
Dislikes Culture's "friendliness" to Necrons
Offended that Culture treats them as equals
Suspicious of Culture technology, or outright rejection
Wary of Culture military power
Common goal of containing Chaos
Wary of Culture's stated goal of containing the Warp
Cultural dislike of "lesser races"

Goals:
Survive unchanged for the next million years
Re-establish Eldar empire (optional)
Genocide the Necrons

Necrons
Dislikes Culture's initial intrusion
Dislikes Culture's social structure
Dislikes Culture's use of organic life
Dislikes Culture's "friendliness" to Eldar
Wary of Culture military power
Shares common goal of the extermination of Chaos, Tyranids, Orks
Aligned goals of shutting off the Warp (the Culture may help or not depending)
Aligned technological base

Goals:
Re-establish Necron empire
Genocide the Eldar
Complete Warp-separation plan

Tau (I talk in terms of what is likely to happen)
Friendly initial contact
Some shared social goals, some disagreements; likely Culture society aligns with Tau's long term social goals or sounds like utopia
Likely technological synergy (Tau warp-deadness; and imagine the speed of using Tau warp-skimming in Hyperspace... yo, I heard you like FTL, so we put an FTL in your FTL)
Wary of Culture military power - Modified for friendly stance
Share common goal of extermination of Chaos, Orks, Tyranids
Dislikes Culture "friendly" contact with Necrons
Dislikes Culture meddling

Goals:
Expansion of the Greater Good
Military power to resist enemies
Prosperity and success

Imperium of Mankind
No general knowledge of the Culture's existence
Xeno!
Wary of Culture military power
Dislikes Culture "friendly" contact with xenos
Dislikes Culture social structure
Dislikes Culture violation of sovereignty
Share common goal of extermination of Chaos, Orks, Tyranids

Goals:
Stability
Worship of the God Emperor
Expansion of Human space

Tyranids & Orks
Dies

Goals:
Waaagh!
Nom Nom Nom

Chaos
Tzeentch - Massive power boost from sudden increase in excessively complicated plots
Slaanesh - Large power boost from non-extreme hedonism
Khorne - Dislikes happy fun times, Culture surgical strikes against Orks and Tyranids are too clean and neat
Nurgle - Power drop from Culture curing of disease
All - Action in material severely curtailed

Open war with everyone
Internal war between factions

Goals:
increase warp exposure
prevent Culture from spreading independence from the Warp and propagating warp-resistance technologies
acquire Culture technology

[jseah]

part 6.5 Necrons - Fallout continued
So Much for Subtlety indicated that the Necron history has some missing details. The Necron Lord refused to clarify for no specified reason.

Some additional details from the history were clarified however, and it appears that the Necrons are also hostile to Chaos. The Necron Lord stated that the Necrons were at war with the Old Ones, who used the Warp, and that the Eldar were the Old Ones' 'pet' civilization.
While this explained the extreme difference in character and technology base of the Eldar and Necrons, as well as most of their hostility, this did not explain how the Necrons intended to deal with the Warp.

Some common ground was found between our "war" with Chaos and the Necrons desire to see the Warp dealt with.
Would the Necrons even mention they have the ability to suppress or nullify warp connections? Especially if the Culture express an interest/common goal in reducing Chaos?
Eg. Null matrix generators, Monolith Phalanx and that sort of thing

EDIT: they clearly won't give it to the Culture, but say, if the Culture proposed a technology trade...? With some clearly valuable technology like good AI (basically, non-insane Necrons) and a more stable bio-transferance technology (Culture can convert humans to drones and back)

[Misery Esquire]

Nurgle - Power drop from Culture curing of disease


Nurgle is A-OK. Honestly, even if the Culture has wiped out all of it's... Native diseases, Nurgle mixes up with a bit of Warp Oomph when he wants to lay down the smack.

...

Plague of Unbelief vs. Culture. Let the trololo begin. :smallconfused:


Doubtful that Necrons would trade anything, under any circumstances.

[jseah]

Plague of Unbelief vs. Culture. Let the trololo begin. :smallconfused:
Trapdoor protocol -> Transmission of disease fails
Disease incurable by standard methods -> Reload from backup

Reload from backup alone has the ability to eliminate any disease (including those that affect the soul, since we agreed you get a new one when you reload)

[Fan]

Trapdoor protocol -> Transmission of disease fails
Disease incurable by standard methods -> Reload from backup

Reload from backup alone has the ability to eliminate any disease (including those that affect the soul, since we agreed you get a new one when you reload)

How does reloading from a backup eliminate the disease? As far as I understand burning the bodies doesn't do much to an actual nurgle plague.

And if the trapdoor protocol is venting it into space, what if it enters spore form before it's vented and burning it only causes the release of more spores, and it can propagate in vacuum? This is a magic disease, it does not need to follow rules.

Of course, I'd still venture that it'd require it's presence to immediately show up in a dense population area to even have a chance at mass propagation.

[jseah]

The Mind can easily detect unusual biological going ons (and the citizens themselves will report it, unplanned body changes being non-existent). The Trapdoor protocol lets the Mind isolate anything in the ship it doesn't like, meaning nothing gets in or out of an area it designates.

Spores aren't something that would be missed and would be captured for analysis. Destruction is likewise simple.

Reload from backup implied a full replacement of body and mind. The Culture just builds a new body and loads the mind-backup into it. The infected body is destroyed (likely taken apart for analysis or rendered down to component elements)

[Fan]

The Mind can easily detect unusual biological going ons (and the citizens themselves will report it, unplanned body changes being non-existent). The Trapdoor protocol lets the Mind isolate anything in the ship it doesn't like, meaning nothing gets in or out of an area it designates.

Spores aren't something that would be missed and would be captured for analysis. Destruction is likewise simple.

Reload from backup implied a full replacement of body and mind. The Culture just builds a new body and loads the mind-backup into it. The infected body is destroyed (likely taken apart for analysis or rendered down to component elements)

But it's a magic plague, it propagates in emotion. IF Nurgle were to unleash a plague he'd do it through one of his component emotions that were strongly present in the group.

In most cases, love of the Emperor, allowing his plagues to curse the followers of who he calls "The Corpse God", while leaving his own legion untouched by the more immediately lethal of his plagues.

Warp viruses propagate through love, and compassion, much in the same way AIDS propagates off the very thing that it meant to fight it.

However, I do question if the cloning process isn't a moving of the soul when they transfer their identity as opposed to the creation of a new one.

[jseah]

Warp viruses propagate through love, and compassion, much in the same way AIDS propagates off the very thing that it meant to fight it.

However, I do question if the cloning process isn't a moving of the soul when they transfer their identity as opposed to the creation of a new one.
Description of Nurgle's viruses on the Lexicanum seems to indicate proximity causes transmission. In a biological attack, this is exactly what will not be available.

And we agreed that it's creation of a new soul since the Culture can have more than one of the same person active. The "reload" doesn't have anything to do with the body or the person who died. In essence, all citizens have a clone of their mind states (and past revisions) sitting on a Culture ship and if they need to, they can turn any one of those into a new citizen with the same personality, skill and memories as the guy had when he had the backup made.

Eg. those SC agents who died on the Necron planet? Yeah, they got reloaded even though nothing came back from the planet.
That drone who got transdimensional Maze'd? Yeah, it got reloaded too. And it'll get a reload even if it was an organic. And the original isn't even dead yet.


Yeah, they CAN make a whole army who are all the same person, network their intelligence, amalgate learned skills and memories into the same person, anything you can imagine. They just don't do it without asking because it wouldn't be ethical.
The Culture can engineer intelligence at a fundamental level. Identity is not important.


...
I have a feeling, that to the Minds, identity isn't even really a thing anymore. In Player of Games, Hub Subsection is a section of the Mind in charge of the Ringworld Gurgeh lived on. After talking with it a bit, he managed to pique its interest so much Hub Entire started to talk to him.
Both "Subsection" and "Entire" didn't seem any different and they clearly share the same memory. Dynamically changeable networks of intelligence!
'Hub here; Makil Stra-bey Mind subsection. Jernau Gurgeh; what can we do for you?'
<...>
'Gurgeh, this is Hub Entire speaking here; not a subsection; all of me.

[Fan]

Well yes, they can engineer "intelligence", but is it functionally a different soul?

This is a confusing question that even 40k doesn't answer as far as I'm aware, despite their own access to cloning.

[jseah]

Well yes, they can engineer "intelligence", but is it functionally a different soul?

This is a confusing question that even 40k doesn't answer as far as I'm aware, despite their own access to cloning.
Well, the question is clearly a problem of 40k's definition. What is the soul and how does it tie into something material. Can a soul even be in two places at the same time? Three? A hundred?
How far do you have to change someone until the soul that body has isn't the same soul anymore?

What impact does the soul have and how does it affect the material and vice versa?


This, by the way, is a magic system question. >.>

EDIT: in some senses, it is also a philosphical one.
Namely, the problem with identity and the Ship of Theseus.

[Chen]

I think we run into the issue of there being "souls" in the 40K universe but they aren't really brought up in the Culture universe. I suspect Banks went the more "hard science" route where there is no soul and people are effectively just conscious machines.

Somehow creating a new soul after a backup seems exploitable in some way :P

[Tiki Snakes]

The simple (though entirely unfounded) answer is that obviously both culture and 40k universes have comparable souls. The reason why cloning is such an issue in 40k and not in the Cultureverse is that Souls have some kind of connection to the warp.

If the warp was ever made calm again, cloning might actually be possible without horrendous, 40k-genre-appropriate consequences.

The culture's own faith in it's own science and scientific superiority stills the warp selectively, just enough for their own science to function unaffected by this, at least when they use it in their own ships and so on.

(It'd be interesting to, say, have the RT try using the culture's cloning stuff only for it all to go horribly 40k style wrong due to this vital difference).

[Selrahc]

I have a feeling, that to the Minds, identity isn't even really a thing anymore. In Player of Games, Hub Subsection is a section of the Mind in charge of the Ringworld Gurgeh lived on. After talking with it a bit, he managed to pique its interest so much Hub Entire started to talk to him.
Both "Subsection" and "Entire" didn't seem any different and they clearly share the same memory. Dynamically changeable networks of intelligence!

Along the same lines: The Avatoids. The personality base of a ship mind downloaded into an autonomous drone. It isn't a mind, and is in some ways distinct from the ship. But since they are essentially personality doubles with the only difference being in capabilities, the Avatoid can act on behalf of the ship in situations that are "personal" in nature. There is also regular (basically, constant) sharing of information between the two, and the mind steps in to direct control if necessary. Being an avatoid must be a really tricky personal sense of identity.

Identity is a thing though. In some sense, it's almost a fundamental thing in the Cultureverse. When a creature sublimes, it comes back to fetch every single mind state, clone and other miscellaneous copy of itself into the sublime. It erases its identity from the physical universe. That is a pretty stark indicator that identity is in some manner, objective.

[Gavinfoxx]

The Eldar
Goals:

To add:
-Free their captive god
-Not have their souls eaten by Slaanesh any more

Necrons
Goals:

To add:
-Some hard-to-define desire to regain what was lost (soul), with an odd tendency to seek out things which might work on that, be they biological uploads or fixing of the corruption of their digital uploads for their royalty (WARNING: Newcron weirdness; use at own risk)

Tau
Goals:

To Add:
-Bring more races into the fold of the Greater Good
-Improve their technology



So I added some things, as I saw them...!

[Gavinfoxx]

EDIT: they clearly won't give it to the Culture, but say, if the Culture proposed a technology trade...? With some clearly valuable technology like good AI (basically, non-insane Necrons) and a more stable bio-transferance technology (Culture can convert humans to drones and back)

According to the Newcron codex... Necrons are very very interested in fixing the problems with their soul / corruption / sentience issues, and that includes having compatible biological bodies... so this is something that they might trade, depending on the Nobility in question...

Of course, this would have to be a noble necron who is capable of fathoming technological trade. And some of them probably actually can't do that. In a very basic way of who and what they are and how they are programmed; the need for Necrons to be superior is tied in at a very, very, very basic level.

[jseah]

Just as an FYI, the current interpretation I am going on is this:
The Warp
It follows strange physics, one that recognizes patterns. Instead of the rules operating on atoms or fundamental forces, the rules operate on patterns. Patterns are the building blocks of things in the Warp.

The soul is one such conglomerate of patterns. Patterns themselves are indivisible but they can be unraveled to release the energy contained. Aggregates of them, like a soul, are, obviously, separable into pieces. Patterns are made of Warp energy and can interact with the Warp to move or affect raw Warp energy or other patterns. Patterns can also appear from Warp energy or other patterns.

Patterns have a position in the Warp. Where a pattern is can distinguish between one pattern somewhere and another identical pattern elsewhere. These positions in the Warp correspond to positions in the Real.

The Warp is atemporal. The Warp is immutable and the passage of time in the real is not represented as changes in the Warp, but as the trajectory of patterns through it. Patterns in the future and in the past can affect the present, they are all there and it never really goes away.
Nevertheless, there are restrictions that the Warp follows with regards to time. I haven't worked this out yet, but it should line up roughly with the restrictions on time travel.

The Real
Warp phenomena happens when the Warp energy temporarily rewrites the rules of the universe. Patterns in the Warp have specific patterns of matter or energy in the Real and a very large number of them deal with organic brains. But things like lightning bolts (that aren't lightning) are generated by the Warp imposing a pattern on the Real.
Manifested Warp patterns in the Real are subject to what rules of the Real that still apply, but the more patterns that manifest, the less rules remain.

Too many Warp patterns, and bam, you have a Warp rift, a place where none of the Real's rules apply any more and the Warp enters the Real.

The Soul
Psykers and psychic sensitivity is how much of "you" is in the warp. Each person, a bunch of matter that processes other matter and energy in the real, attracts patterns in the warp as they form. By default, each arrangment of matter in the real will have a certain amount of Warp pattern associating with it, but by circumstance or deliberate control, more or less patterns can aggregate around the corresponding position of the real material.
This is highly sensitive to how the being develops and genetics, being the controlling developmental program, plays a very large part.

Organic beings have a pattern of material that affects the Warp in ways that attract patterns. Metals do not and a being made of metals does not affect the Warp. Intelligence, the ability to process information and representations of things (aka. concepts), attracts even more Warp patterns.
This conglomerate of Warp patterns is typically called the Soul.

A soul affects the body as much as the reverse. Kill the person in the real, and the patterns in the Warp will disperse. Kill the soul in the Warp, and the corresponding effects of the patterns will affect the real (usually killing the person).
In fact, in some cases, not all of a person's intellect resides in the Real, some of it is in the Warp. Souls interact with each other, usually to no major effect, but they can sense each other and communicate this to the brain in the Real.

Psychics
Psykers are organic people with a conglomerate of Warp patterns that can create other Warp patterns, including one that makes the Warp intrude into the real to impose a pattern. This may or may not be deliberately controlled, often not.

Races have inclinations (Eldars are more like to interact with the patterns corresponding to the future) based on biology that changes what patterns in the Warp are most likely to occur.

Blanks are the reverse of psykers, they have very few or no patterns associated with them in the Warp because they attracted a pattern that undoes other patterns.
Their ability to drive psychics crazy or make normals disgusted with them is because of the soul. They have none or very little to interact with in the Warp and consequently creep people out unconsciously due to the lack of that interaction.
Their invisibility to psykers, resistance or plain immunity to Chaos corruption, immunity to purely Warp effects, are all explained by this. But clearly, if you hit them with a lightning bolt, even a Warp lightning bolt, they still die.

Machines and devices that use the Warp are also possible. Those that manipulate the Warp by using arrangements of Real materials that attract Warp patterns can acheive Warp effects. (eg. Null Matrix generators, Gellar fields, D-Cannons) Copies these devices in the Real alone will work, since they manipulate the Warp for their effects.

Devices that partially exist in the Warp use both arrangements of the Real and patterns in the Warp together to acheive an effect. (eg. Eldar Wraithbone, Webway travel, Psychic weapons, Warp drives) These require both a Warp and Real construction method to make them, so it can get very complicated and often needs another Warp + Real device to do that.

You can consider it a basic framework of warp-material interaction.

This is highly based off the same solution I used to have "lifeforce" in my magic system.

I note with some satisfaction that it explains all the current interactions I have written in this fic or read about in 40k.

[jseah]

part 6.5 Necrons - Closing
So Much for Subtlety has left the area to move against the galactic rotation towards the Tyranids. Negotiations with the Necron Lord have been unfruitful and close attention has been paid towards his mobilization of starships around the world.
A number of remote drones were left with us by So Much for Subtlety in case we required them to track Necron movement. White Devil has been tasked with tracking him if any ships leave, Curiousity Saved the Cat will continue negotiations.

Judging from the lack of coherency in his reactions to our statements, we surmise that the Necron Lord has suffered some form of degradation to his logical circuits, specifically that of temporal segmentation. Support for this hypothesis is from an analysis of <...>

White Devil's attachment to the Necron warriors is rather unusual, it treats them almost like some sort of very silent pet, claiming that they are sentient and it is determined to make friends with them. Curiousity requested to scan White Devil's systems for Chaos corruption and found no anomalies.

[Gavinfoxx]

If the Rogue Trader is put in between a rock and a hard place as far as what he is allowed to do... I would suspect he would endeavor to do actions that increase the power of the Imperium in general. Winning Crusades, solving problems with Orks and Pirates and Dark Eldar and Tyranids and Rebels and such. Trying to get messages to the Imperium of the threat of The Culture. Trying to choose violent encounters that improve the status of The Imperium relatively more than they improve the status of The Culture.

He'd probably be worried about being personally smitten by The Emperor, due to the level of influence in the scope of the direction of the Imperium he is holding... and he would want to avoid that (ie, getting smitten) at all cost.

[Misery Esquire]

Just as an FYI, the current interpretation I am going on is this:
The Warp
It follows strange physics, one that recognizes patterns. Instead of the rules operating on atoms or fundamental forces, the rules operate on patterns. Patterns are the building blocks of things in the Warp.

Rule 1 of the Warp ; There Are No Rules.
Rule 2 of the Warp ; Disregard Rule 1.

The soul is one such conglomerate of patterns. Patterns themselves are indivisible but they can be unraveled to release the energy contained. Aggregates of them, like a soul, are, obviously, separable into pieces. Patterns are made of Warp energy and can interact with the Warp to move or affect raw Warp energy or other patterns. Patterns can also appear from Warp energy or other patterns.

But a Soul can be torn apart. Not sure what "Patterns" are supposed to indicate other than that, so far.

Patterns have a position in the Warp. Where a pattern is can distinguish between one pattern somewhere and another identical pattern elsewhere. These positions in the Warp correspond to positions in the Real.

Noone has identical souls in 40k, aside from the HorrorStory PsykerTwins in a sideblurb. But they're horrifying psyker twins, who disappeared from reality, taking a Blackship with them. This, if following your theory, is likely the cause of Clone Hate in 40k.

The Warp is atemporal. The Warp is immutable and the passage of time in the real is not represented as changes in the Warp, but as the trajectory of patterns through it. Patterns in the future and in the past can affect the present, they are all there and it never really goes away.
Nevertheless, there are restrictions that the Warp follows with regards to time. I haven't worked this out yet, but it should line up roughly with the restrictions on time travel.

But... You can have warp entities that retroactively exsisted for millions of years, causing thier own creation. Tzeentchian demons can create permanant real-world time loops of events, while things interact with them. It still goes back to the same loop. You can also arrive in time to kill your past self, before going to the past, and continue exsisting. On the other hand, you can also go back to the past, kill yourself and paradox out of exsistance.

The Real
Warp phenomena happens when the Warp energy temporarily rewrites the rules of the universe. Patterns in the Warp have specific patterns of matter or energy in the Real and a very large number of them deal with organic brains. But things like lightning bolts (that aren't lightning) are generated by the Warp imposing a pattern on the Real.
Manifested Warp patterns in the Real are subject to what rules of the Real that still apply, but the more patterns that manifest, the less rules remain.

Too many Warp patterns, and bam, you have a Warp rift, a place where none of the Real's rules apply any more and the Warp enters the Real.

Eh, sure. It follows your theory perfectly, but not nessecarily 40K's exsistance, in that the Astronomicon and Terra aren't the universe's largest puncture hole.

The Soul
Psykers and psychic sensitivity is how much of "you" is in the warp. Each person, a bunch of matter that processes other matter and energy in the real, attracts patterns in the warp as they form. By default, each arrangment of matter in the real will have a certain amount of Warp pattern associating with it, but by circumstance or deliberate control, more or less patterns can aggregate around the corresponding position of the real material.
This is highly sensitive to how the being develops and genetics, being the controlling developmental program, plays a very large part.

But Psykerism has never been a genetic thing, it's entirely decided by your soul, as far as can be told. Navigators are one of the few exceptions in that when breeding with each other they end up with Navigators, still. Psyker + Psyker can equal anything, human, psyker, or even possibly Blank, though Blanks have been shown to also move genetically.

Organic beings have a pattern of material that affects the Warp in ways that attract patterns. Metals do not and a being made of metals does not affect the Warp. Intelligence, the ability to process information and representations of things (aka. concepts), attracts even more Warp patterns.
This conglomerate of Warp patterns is typically called the Soul.

The soul continues exsisting without the mind, though. Inanimate objects can, and do, exsist in the Warp. They do not have any deciding power in how the Warp works

A soul affects the body as much as the reverse. Kill the person in the real, and the patterns in the Warp will disperse. Kill the soul in the Warp, and the corresponding effects of the patterns will affect the real (usually killing the person).

In fact, in some cases, not all of a person's intellect resides in the Real, some of it is in the Warp. Souls interact with each other, usually to no major effect, but they can sense each other and communicate this to the brain in the Real.

Eh. Souls can exsist without a living person, though. Thus the daemon's constant threats of eternally torturing your soul, and bringing you back to life, without needing a body.




Psychics
Psykers are organic people with a conglomerate of Warp patterns that can create other Warp patterns, including one that makes the Warp intrude into the real to impose a pattern. This may or may not be deliberately controlled, often not.

Continues following your theory, which if valid, works.

Races have inclinations (Eldars are more like to interact with the patterns corresponding to the future) based on biology that changes what patterns in the Warp are most likely to occur.

If it was simply Biology, the Imperium would be mass producing psykers as weaponry, pilots, etc. The Old Ones, and one Emperor-related gizmo, are the only things ever shown to be able to imbue Warp-presence. And the (maybe) Emperor-related one was ripping the soul out of an already-psyker to power it.

Blanks are the reverse of psykers, they have very few or no patterns associated with them in the Warp because they attracted a pattern that undoes other patterns.
Their ability to drive psychics crazy or make normals disgusted with them is because of the soul. They have none or very little to interact with in the Warp and consequently creep people out unconsciously due to the lack of that interaction.
Their invisibility to psykers, resistance or plain immunity to Chaos corruption, immunity to purely Warp effects, are all explained by this. But clearly, if you hit them with a lightning bolt, even a Warp lightning bolt, they still die.

Continues following theory. Having patterns in the warp aside from daemons that follow the Big 4 following the Big 4's MO are still nonexsistant.

Machines and devices that use the Warp are also possible. Those that manipulate the Warp by using arrangements of Real materials that attract Warp patterns can acheive Warp effects. (eg. Null Matrix generators, Gellar fields, D-Cannons) Copies these devices in the Real alone will work, since they manipulate the Warp for their effects.

Devices that partially exist in the Warp use both arrangements of the Real and patterns in the Warp together to acheive an effect. (eg. Eldar Wraithbone, Webway travel, Psychic weapons, Warp drives) These require both a Warp and Real construction method to make them, so it can get very complicated and often needs another Warp + Real device to do that.

The Webway exsists entirely in the Warp, as a solid in the Warp. The Gates only exsist as exits, as far as we know. Warp Drives also only exsist in the Real, D-Cannons only draw and focus psychic power from the Eldar, because all of the triggering and mechanics of it are psychic. It's more of a prism/generator than a gun. Wraithbone is also Real but has Warp applied to it by Singing, it just happens to be the most receptive material to this sort of tampering.



Replies in bold.


Trapdoor protocol -> Transmission of disease fails
Disease incurable by standard methods -> Reload from backup

Reload from backup alone has the ability to eliminate any disease (including those that affect the soul, since we agreed you get a new one when you reload)

Plague of Unbelief spreads by lack of (TRUE!) Faith, while having "faith". (In the Emperor is the only thing we have shown). It has no vector aside from a Nurglite being anywhere near a planet, at some point, and the population not being actually faithful. It can have a delayed reaction time of... Unspecified time. It's almost entirely, or entirely, in the Warp. You can't stop Warp infection vectors with SCIENCE! (Or, not the SCIENCE! the Culture currently has.)

[Forum Explorer]

The perfect separation of the Warp from reality is presented as a very bad thing. It would basically reduce everyone to the level of Necrons and would likely entirely wipe out the Eldar race. (Oldcrons used to have zero free will and no personality. Newcrons don't actually want to separate the Warp from Reality.)


Nurgle plagues are literally insane and can infect pretty much anything. Yes, even machines. Nurgle is actually a big threat to the Culture in that he and Tzeentch are really the only ones who can directly target a Mind. He always has a cure though, but that cure may not make sense either.


Eldar have lots of personal freedom in that they can choose whatever Path they like. They are encouraged by society to make sure that they don't get stuck on any one Path but it still happens and those Eldar aren't punished beyond what their life has now become. (Exarchs; Eldar who have gotten trapped on the Path of War, become incapable of normal peaceful interaction with other Eldar. They've lost interest in normal things and only care about war.) If the Eldar in question rejects the idea he is free to take the Path of the Outcast, where he may travel wherever he wishes and act however he wishes (outside Eldar society.) However he lacks the protection given by the Eldar paths and is vulnerable to corruption and destruction by Slaanash.

Dark Eldar can't be considered an HS. They don't actually conquer, just various degrees of raids and enslavement. They also don't care what the slaves actually think or do. Can they be reformed? Perhaps. It's not unknown for a Dark Eldar to make their way to a Craftworld and join the Craftworld relatively peacefully. (They'd be mistrusted and watched.) It is however very rare.


Right now the Culture doesn't know about the Dark Eldar unless the Eldar have told them. The Imperium doesn't bother to tell the difference between the different groups of Eldar. Not in anything but obscure Xenos research anyways.

[Tavar]

Slight update to Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IeYvhXSrOVWjs6dixd-FhPjONdwK0nPjWsMZtqFUo8Q/edit

[Eldan]

There are several aspects of Eldar society I would be quite interested in the culture's reaction to. Spirit stones and wraith guard, obviously, but also the use of exarchs and exarch /phoenix king armour, which is psychic and effectively overwrites a good part of the wearer's mind with a composite of former wearers of the armour.

[Fan]

The Phoenix King armor is HIGHLY revered though, to the point of it's use being considered an absolute last stand, it's also entirely voluntary.

[jseah]

Rule 1 of the Warp ; There Are No Rules.
Rule 2 of the Warp ; Disregard Rule 1.
I really have to make a stand on this one. I have stated before that I am interpreting the Warp as running on it's own rules. I find it impossible to write about something that isn't coherent even by its own measure. (level of detail I have gone into the Warp-as-patterns theory is what I would consider an absolute minimum level of detail; anything lower than that, I can't write)

I'm sorry but that's how I'm writing this fic, the Warp here has its own rules and is understandable, just not with a framework of what we commonly call physics.

Some of your other points are valid, I'll think about it and tweak as necessary.


part 6.5 - Misc. unrelated Eldar
Week 2
An IoM merchant ship from outside our surveyed area dropped out of Warp near an IoM minor fleet base with a report that a Chaos warband had been sighted in the near region. Despite the sketchy evidence and hearsay, an IoM recon in force of nearly two thirds the defending fleet warped out with a stated destination of a mining world we had not reached yet.

The GCU in the process of scanning the fleet base decided that observing the IoM's protocols in fighting Chaos was more important and headed to that system.

Week 3
GCU arrived a day before IoM fleet. System has an Eldar teleportation gate. No hostiles, only IoM merchant traffic spotted.

IoM fleet has arrived. They communicated with the mining world to confirm no reports of Chaos were there. They decided to stay for one day.

A band of Eldar emerged from the teleportation gate. Since they did not attempt to initiate the standard protocol for contact with us (tight beam laser aimed 30* off the ecliptic if angle is clear and free), we assumed that they did not expect us to be here or they were from a faction that was unaware of us.

Ships of the Eldar were slightly less well maintained than the standard. The Eldar fleet appeared to remain undetected but then proceeded to swing around the IoM fleet on a course for the mining world.

The IoM fleet managed to see the Eldar on their sensors when the Eldar were just about to pass them (we tapped their systems) and proceeded to maneuver onto an intercept course despite recognition among the command heirarchy that the Eldar were not the Chaos warband they were looking for.

The Eldar proceeded to attack the IoM fleet with hit and run attacks, utilizing their much superior ECM and stealth capabilities to inflict damage on the IoM fleet. Neither side inflicted any significant loss on each other.
Communications between the IoM and Eldar appeared to indicate that the Eldar were attempting to raid the IoM planet.

At this point, the GCU Peacemaker decided to intervene to prevent the loss of life on either side. Using its Displacers, minor plasma charges were used to overload key shields and then Effectors were employed to hack into the power grid and shut down the IoM shields and engines. IoM efforts to restore function were easily overridden.

The Eldar ships were contained from the IoM ships by forcefield walls projected by effector marked by visible light radiation. While the Eldar ships could potentially force their way through the fields as the GCU's effector arrays were overstretched, they only tested the boundaries warily before retreating.
That's an Eldar pirate fleet (not Dark Eldar).

I had an idea for Tzeentch where he arranges for an IoM fleet to conflict with Necrons or Eldar to damage the Culture's impression of one of the three races. Or force a Culture contact of the IoM.

And then I wrote it and realized that it just wasn't going to work, there is absolutely no reason why the Culture GCU would proceed with contact when it could just shut down the IoM fleet (coz those guys are uncontrollable) and present unfathomable phenomena to chase off the Eldar. So I guess not all of Tzeentch's plots work.

But in this case, the IoM has another data point of 'weird things' and the Eldar faction probably are going to be mildly annoyed at the Culture's willingness to defend the IoM against the Eldar. Even if it's a minor Eldar pirate faction. So I guess it wasn't a pure waste of effort.


part 6.5 - Rogue Trader
Week 1
GCU Golden Goose
Aisha Meiro's handling of the Techpriests has left the Rogue Trader slightly unhappy but his recruitment of mercenaries has left him well enough equipped. The Rogue Trader has only managed to acquire construction plans for non-critical and baseline-technology equipment. His request to purchase a Lunar was finally declined.

Nevertheless, his profit margin is at least two orders of magnitude over that of the Forge World. His continuous sale of various goods by both legal and covert means has attracted some attention from the Mechanicum in charge of the Forge World. We were unable to warn him of this threat as Aisha Meiro was never allowed off his ship and had no plausible reason to know about it.

A battlecruiser and escorts of the Ad Mech maneuvered into an intercept course with his ship when he returned from last delivering a sale and with a shuttle full of rare elements in critical shortage. The Rogue Trader evaded action and the mercenaries jumped out of system towards an agreed rendevous while he outran the Ad Mech by travelling sublight beyond the sensor range and going into hyperspace when no one could notice.
His escape was helped by our subtle interference with the Ad Mech sensors.

[Tavar]

Really, the Chaos is completely random is, in my opinion, overstated. Yes, it's very random, but only if you try and impose a viewpoint grounded in modern physics on it. Really, the pattern stuff seems very similar to what we find out when 'experts' on the Warp and Chaos(Navigators, Psykers, etc) talk about it.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think what is going on is that the sources say, all the time, that The Warp doesn't follow rules and is completely random, or whatever.

But when they actually show what it does, how it does it, what it can't do, who can do what with it, etc. etc. ...

It very obviously follows rules. Hence the disconnect.

[jseah]

RE: Nurgle plagues
While most of the plagues originate from the Warp via a negative emotion vector like you mentioned, apart from initial infections, they were all described to spread by close contact or described to have physical vectors (viruses, pus, etc.)

Also, I didn't come across one that affected machines.

So far, I've read the Vile Savants, Nurgle's Rot and Zombie plague. Judging by the pattern of names and descriptions, the rest of the examples in the Lexicanum that just had names didn't appear like they would affect machines.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, I like the idea that it is biology influencing a (typically) years-long process. So it isn't JUST biology, but it is influenced by biology.

And the reason that the Imperium doesn't mass produce psykers is because outlaws research into psykers and genetics of psykers... why do they do that? Probably because they got burned a lot of times. It's a thing that Chaos does lots of, ending with people who research into this stuff falling to chaos or whatever, or that ends up with a lot of high power uncontrolled psykers and some megadeaths. So of course research into the genetics of psykers is overtly forbidden.

[The Glyphstone]

Personally, I like the Warp As Patterns concept. It might not entirely mesh with the 40K party-line that One Cannot Understand The Warp Without Being Driven Mad, but I mentioned numerous times in the first thread that one of the biggest problems that vs. threads tend to develop is when you take two settings with completely disparate underlying themes and run them together...something has to give unless you just want to go nowhere. Here, we have Cultureverse's SCIENCE!! against 40K's GRIMDARK and Unknowable Mysteries. It's entirely possible that the Warp does run on patterns, ways that are predictable yet unknowable to mortal men (hence why Tzeentch's plans are incomprehensible, because it understands the patterns we don't). Or, equally possible, the act of bringing the Culture to 40K has imposed a meta-order on the Warp, allowing the underlying truths of Cultureverse to be overlaid into the outward appearances of 40K with minimal disruption.

[Misery Esquire]

RE: Nurgle plagues
While most of the plagues originate from the Warp via a negative emotion vector like you mentioned, apart from initial infections, they were all described to spread by close contact or described to have physical vectors (viruses, pus, etc.)

Also, I didn't come across one that affected machines.

So far, I've read the Vile Savants, Nurgle's Rot and Zombie plague. Judging by the pattern of names and descriptions, the rest of the examples in the Lexicanum that just had names didn't appear like they would affect machines.

I believe Fan was going for the Obliterator Virus. It's a very specific one, and has more to do with merging machinery in an unholy mess than infecting people.

[The Glyphstone]

I believe Fan was going for the Obliterator Virus. It's a very specific one, and has more to do with merging machinery in an unholy mess than infecting people.

And I'm not sure it's strictly a Nurgle Virus. It's technically a Nurglish creation because he is the God of Disease, but you actually see more Obliterators and their unique techno-virus in non-affiliated legions like the Iron Warriors.


EDIT: Also, there is one small benefit to adopting those Two Rules on a case-by-base basis...some things in 40K related to the warp simply don't fit. Untouchables, for instance - effectively super-Blanks,like you described them but anathema to the Warp to such a degree that their touch burns Daemonflesh, and a 'Warp Lightning Bolt' would disappear out of existence if it got close to them. So have the Warp-As-Patterns theory, and stick to it when you can, but if you run into something irreconcilable, use it as-is and say 'the Warp makes its own exceptions'. It's basically a blank check, justified by canon, to break your own rules whenever you feel like it.

[Fan]

That'd still be interesting to see, an Obliterator who merges with a mind in a ship, that'd be about the only way to prevent a self destruct too.

Scary stuff.

[The Glyphstone]

That'd still be interesting to see, an Obliterator who merges with a mind in a ship, that'd be about the only way to prevent a self destruct too.

Scary stuff.

It would require physical access to the Mind's material component, though, and I doubt they give that out to just anyone. So very scary, but almost indescribably difficult to pull off.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, your theory needs more room to describe the super-blanks, the most strong types of blanks...

[The Glyphstone]

And if he doesn't want/have time to make those elaborations, he can legitimately say 'Because Warp. Shut up."

[Douglas]

If the Warp truly had no rules, no one would be able to use it for anything with any significant degree of reliability. Including psykers, navigators, the Eldar, and even Chaos. This is clearly not the case, so the Warp must have rules. Not necessarily simple rules, or rules that would seem at all reasonable to a modern physicist, but rules nonetheless.

[jseah]

An extension of the theory with regards to superblanks and Necron Null Matrix:
The Warp has a pattern that describes the Real. When manifested in the Real, nothing overt appears to happen as the rules it overwrites... it overwrites with the same rules that we are familiar with in the Real.
Superblanks do this by imposing the rules of the Real around them (the pattern is part of them). Necrons do it by building devices that by structure attract that pattern and impose it (which explains everything from Gellar fields to monolith Nodal Grids to Cadian pylons)

Aka. this is the Warp's equivalent of anti-magic field. A strong Daemon or psyker may be able to power through it, but they'll have to fight to impose their patterns' rules instead of the reality-enforcing pattern's.


One Cannot Understand The Warp Without Being Driven Mad,
Now, my personal epileptic tree theory RE maddening knowledge. I am not using this for the fic, this is just a personal comment.

So far, this applies to the Warp and to Lovecraft's stuff. I haven't found any other fiction with "knowledge that drives you mad".

The theory here is that the it's not the knowledge that drives you mad. It's the definition of mad.

If you had someone walk down the street and told you the stars aligned and some outer god was going to eat all your souls and you can't feel it because you can't feel your soul... what do you think of him?

But what if he's right? To him, he's not mad, he's right and you are just unenlightened. He's seen the evidence and worked out the theory, which could be wrong. And if tearing down the street while wearing pyjamas, burning incense and playing the flute really DID avert the aligning of the stars (whatever that means), you'll never see the evidence for why he believes what he does.

You just call him crazy.

The joke's on you when you get eaten by giant space hamsters.

[Misery Esquire]

And the reason that the Imperium doesn't mass produce psykers is because outlaws research into psykers and genetics of psykers... why do they do that? Probably because they got burned a lot of times. It's a thing that Chaos does lots of, ending with people who research into this stuff falling to chaos or whatever, or that ends up with a lot of high power uncontrolled psykers and some megadeaths. So of course research into the genetics of psykers is overtly forbidden.

But then people like Fabius Bile, on Team Chaos would be happily using Construct-Your-Own-Psykers, rather than looting humans from colonies. I would quote the Eldar as being able to do it if it were possible, as well, but they're all born psykers, if not nessecarily strong ones.



The joke's on you when you get eaten by giant space hamsters.

But the joke is on him, in 40k. Because he'll probably start withdrawing into himself the further he learns, circular logic drawing him in, each secret pointing toward the next, until a daemon bursts from the back of his skull, or he decides that Enuncia is a great plan.*

*It's not.

[jseah]

But then people like Fabius Bile, on Team Chaos would be happily using Construct-Your-Own-Psykers, rather than looting humans from colonies. I would quote the Eldar as being able to do it if it were possible, as well, but they're all born psykers, if not nessecarily strong ones.
I'll note that Team Chaos hasn't acheived the Singularity yet or they'll just overrun everyone. Understanding of intelligence and how it develops might be key, which is one of the major steps towards Singularity. (it is implied you need this since Warp sensitivity seems linked to intelligence; you don't see Chaos-infested rocks except on Daemon worlds)

I mean, there are holes (the major one is the Astronomican, Choir and the Golden Throne), but those can be patched.

Also, you already know why the Eldar don't do it.


But the joke is on him, in 40k. Because he'll probably start withdrawing into himself the further he learns, circular logic drawing him in, each secret pointing toward the next, until a daemon bursts from the back of his skull, or he decides that Enuncia is a great plan.
I wouldn't claim all knowledge (if they were true) would be safe.

But that bit was just an observation that when people say "knowledge drives people mad", they assume the "knowledge" part is at fault and don't question whether it is really the "mad" part that is at fault.

[Misery Esquire]

I'll note that Team Chaos hasn't acheived the Singularity yet or they'll just overrun everyone. Understanding of intelligence and how it develops might be key, which is one of the major steps towards Singularity. (it is implied you need this since Warp sensitivity seems linked to intelligence; you don't see Chaos-infested rocks except on Daemon worlds)

I'm actually curious what (fully) constitues a Singularity, overall. I tried searching for it a bit, but I'm home sick today and not at the best to put effort into things.



I mean, there are holes (the major one is the Astronomican, Choir and the Golden Throne), but those can be patched.


But the Astro/Chair don't have any effects on the surrounding RealWorld, so they can't be Warp Rifts... Ah, well.



I wouldn't claim all knowledge (if they were true) would be safe.

But that bit was just an observation that when people say "knowledge drives people mad", they assume the "knowledge" part is at fault and don't question whether it is really the "mad" part that is at fault.

Ah. Fair enough, sorry.

Heh. Makes me think, though. There's one way the RT could kill the SC, and the Culture wouldn't expect, or would think it's more folklore, or the agent might just be curious enough to look. Comment to the Navigator that the agent would want to have a "better look at his/her/its face." Cue warp eye instakill when the agent glances at it.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm actually curious what (fully) constitues a Singularity, overall. I tried searching for it a bit, but I'm home sick today and not at the best to put effort into things.



But the Astro/Chair don't have any effects on the surrounding RealWorld, so they can't be Warp Rifts... Ah, well.



Ah. Fair enough, sorry.

Heh. Makes me think, though. There's one way the RT could kill the SC, and the Culture wouldn't expect, or would think it's more folklore, or the agent might just be curious enough to look. Comment to the Navigator that the agent would want to have a "better look at his/her/its face." Cue warp eye instakill when the agent glances at it.

Only if the Navigator is in on the plan, possibly. Older fluff has anyone who looks into the Warp Eye struck dead, and I think Rogue Trader does something similar where it's an automatic attack if you have it uncovered, but other fluff - the Ragnar Saga comes to mind - the eye's deadly properties have to be deliberately triggered by the Navigator, otherwise it's just a small weird-looking third eye.

[jseah]

I'm actually curious what (fully) constitues a Singularity, overall. I tried searching for it a bit, but I'm home sick today and not at the best to put effort into things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

Basically, when the study of intelligence leads to improving intelligence, it will feedback and accelerate research into further improving intelligence because the scientists got smarter. And then they get smarter faster and faster, leading to exponential explosion of technology.
That is one of the major requirements.

When we say "Singularity Enabling Technology", what we really mean is a way to manufacture intelligence. Right now, you can consider an economy to have two parts: that of the workers & consumers and that of the capital multipliers on the workers' work.

The ability to manufacture intelligence means that 'work' is now capital. Thus, you only need capital to make more capital and everything else.


The nanobots in the RT arc is merely super-fast manufacturing, but you still need someone to tell the nanobots what to do, where to go and which plan to build. It's just a very powerful piece of capital equipment.
One person with command of the nanobots might be able to manage a production power of a Forge World, but that's about the maximum.

Give them a plan that could build an AI control node and you can have a fully automated network of nodes and nanobots that you can just say "do X" and be assured that steps to acheive it would occur. Drop an AI node on an asteroid and say "make a Lunar" and they'll do the rest.
Now you don't even need people at all. You can dump the nanobots and AI control node in a system and say "help me in this war" and it'll do the rest too.


Note how the last usage example is exactly like siccing a HS on your enemies.


Heh. Makes me think, though. There's one way the RT could kill the SC, and the Culture wouldn't expect, or would think it's more folklore, or the agent might just be curious enough to look. Comment to the Navigator that the agent would want to have a "better look at his/her/its face." Cue warp eye instakill when the agent glances at it.
o.O

That... That would actually work. XD

[Gavinfoxx]

I thought the current fluff is 'When a Navigator's 3rd eye gazes onto you, you are instantly struck dead and your soul is annihilated as it is drawn into the warp'.

I think you might also be bodily drawn into the warp as well...

[Gavinfoxx]

If he really wants to say '**** you' to the Culture, he would:

1.) jump to warp.
2.) Have one of his secondary navigators kill the culture operative with third eye.
3.) have his astropath choir transmitting as much intelligence and knowledge as possible of what is going on and the tech
4.) warp travel to the nearest forge world


I suppose it depends on how much of a greedy bastard he is, vs. how much of a patriot he is, vs. how much he respects/fears the power of The Emperor...

[Misery Esquire]

~Singularty~

But that would mean the Dark Age of Technology was a singularity, in that STC Machines had AI, and produced anything you asked it to, within the technological limits it had. It was also tied to the millions/billions/whatever of AI worker robots around the galaxy. :smallconfused:




o.O

That... That would actually work. XD

Also a note I just thought of, in regards to the knowledge thing. Did the Mind that scanned Titan also lift all the paper-bound info?

Because if it did, that Mind is now the main corruption threat in all of the Culture. Re; Daemon names, and the Inquisition using mindless servitors, and then killing it off (Probably burning the corpse as well. It's the =I= afterall), after writing accounts about daemons/daemon names.

[Fan]

That thing would be nigh instantly corrupted, the knowledge of ONE daemons true name was enough to drive an Inqusitor instantly omnicidially insane.

One name? A mind wouldn't even blink, but the true contents of the Librarium daemonicum listing hundreds of thousands of daemonic true names?

I pity the thing.

Also, the Navigators 3rd eye actually is an instant kill for anything not entirely made of the warp, anything with a soul basically. Even Chaos Space Marines insta die from it.

[God Imperror]

But that would mean the Dark Age of Technology was a singularity, in that STC Machines had AI, and produced anything you asked it to, within the technological limits it had. It was also tied to the millions/billions/whatever of AI worker robots around the galaxy. :smallconfused:

Yes the dark age of technology was a singularity.

On the daemon names... Well that's a scary thought.

[Gavinfoxx]

I don't think the DAoT was quite a Singularity... at least as Jseah is definining it; he has some very specific understandings of the implications of a Singularity.

Though, a culture of leisure with an underclass of robots to do all the work for everyone, with lots of sentient AI, and super-technology all over the place...

The thing is, there was variation in the STC's. Some had the 'input raw material, output end product. Some were just collections of blueprints that described how to make something... and apparently, there really wasn't that much improvement of the human mind, and the fact that the technology was lost on such a large scale means, in a very large way, that maybe it wasn't a singularity after all?



Because if it did, that Mind is now the main corruption threat in all of the Culture. Re; Daemon names, and the Inquisition using mindless servitors, and then killing it off (Probably burning the corpse as well. It's the =I= afterall), after writing accounts about daemons/daemon names.


Also whichever mind scanned the Ordo Malleus and Ordo Hereticus archives, to boot...

[Selrahc]

That thing would be nigh instantly corrupted, the knowledge of ONE daemons true name was enough to drive an Inqusitor instantly omnicidially insane.

True names get used all the time in battle... One of the most effective weapons in the war against demons. People can just yell out books of the things at the top of their voice in the hope of finding the right one for the daemon you're fighting. They bring the books into battle, with a loudspeaker.

So they're clearly not all that efficacious in driving people to madness.


Also, the Navigators 3rd eye actually is an instant kill for anything not entirely made of the warp, anything with a soul basically. Even Chaos Space Marines insta die from it.

Not in Rogue Trader.

[Misery Esquire]

The thing is, there was variation in the STC's. Some had the 'input raw material, output end product. Some were just collections of blueprints that described how to make something... and apparently, there really wasn't that much improvement of the human mind, and the fact that the technology was lost on such a large scale means, in a very large way, that maybe it wasn't a singularity after all?

Every Machine STC could do all of the above, though. It's only after they were shattered in the wars and torn to pieces that they became rare blueprints and myths. They were able to produce new designs as required, and built AI worker units to replace, or assist, human production.

If the only "real" measure of a technological singularity is that it's impossible to remove, then it's never happened, true.

/shrug?

[Gavinfoxx]

See, I don't think there is really evidence that the true AI controlled molecular forge version of STC's were at every colony that had 'A STC'. I think the molecular forges were at the wealthiest/most supported colonies, and some lower tech fabricators with non AI-based expert systems, maybe with a particular type of single purpose molecular forge, and there were some colonies that just got a database of designs. Well, every colony that got 'a STC' got at least a database of designs, from what I can tell. This would account for all the differing descriptions of what an STC is, and the varying capabilities of things described as STC's.

I think the Rogue Trader RPG does have it as an instakill, hold on... hmmm, not exactly!

I'm just going to quote the rules...



The Lidless Stare
If a Navigator opens his warp eye fully, anyone gazing into its depths will witness the power and mind breaking unreality of the warp. In an instant, they witness the chaos boiling beneath the skin of existence and for many, it is the last thing they ever see.

Novice: The Navigator makes an Opposed Willpower Test with anyone looking into his Warp Eye. Make a single test for the Navigator and compare it to the results of each of his opponents. If the Navigator achieves more degrees of success, the opponent suffers 1d10+ the Navigator’s Willpower bonus in Energy damage. This damage is not reduced by armour or Toughness Bonus. Anyone taking damage from this power is also Stunned for 1 round as they are ripped with agony.

Using this power is taxing and inflicts a level of Fatigue on the Navigator. If the Navigator fails this Test by one degree of failure or more, he suffers two levels of Fatigue.

Adept: As above, however, the damage is increased to 2d10+ (the Navigator’s WP bonus) and the time the victims are Stunned increases to 1d5 rounds. Victims also suffer 1d5 Insanity Points.

Master: As above, with the additional effect that any creature possessing an Intelligence of 20+ suffering damage from this power must make an immediate Difficult (–10) Toughness Test or be slain. If they pass, they suffer 1d10 Insanity points rather than 1d5.

Avoiding a Navigator’s Gaze
The Lidless Stare will affect anyone, friend or foe, that looks into the Navigator’s third eye when this power is activated.
This has an effective range of 15m (reduced to 5m in fog or mist) and has no effect on unliving targets, Untouchables, and daemons or other entities from the Warp. Those forewarned can look away, though even then being within line of sight of a Navigator is dangerous. The power of his eye is persuasive,
and looking away only grants them +30 on their rolls to resist its power. Those who are unaware of the Navigator’s presence gain this bonus as well.

[The Glyphstone]

So it is possible for him to 'shut it off', then? Though that probably just means keeping the lid shut.

[Gavinfoxx]

So it is possible for him to 'shut it off', then? Though that probably just means keeping the lid shut.

Yes, that is exactly what it means...

[Tiki Snakes]

STC's and Iron Men, using the above to do incredible things and conquor large parts of the galaxy even without psykers or the emperor.

It does sound and feel like it's pretty comparable to a singularity (which is a pretty hazy concept to begin with). In traditional 40k style of course, this particular singularity didn't turn out particularly well for those who initiated it though, and that's apparently why its the Dark Age of Technology rather than the Lost Age of Technology.

Which, as much as it's a classic 40k genre thing, is also not an outcome that is inherantly incompatible with the concept of a singularity as I understand from the wiki page.

Amusingly enough, the GM who runs Deathwatch locally explicitly models the Dark Age of Technology (and certain ships from it) on the Culture. Small world, eh?

Edit: 2d10 + Willpower isn't a guarenteed instant kill, even with it being entirely unsoakable and unblockable, but it's close enough for all intents and purposes to earn the reputation at least. It'd easily be enough to burn the average man out, if the target is particularly tough or lucky though he might just be scraping the survivable bits of the critical hit table. Not counting the toughness test, of course.

Which if nothing else says that if the Rogue Trader is desperate enough to try it as a plan, he's not likely to resort to using a single backup navigator, as he's going to want a big gun on this.

[Gavinfoxx]

A few backup navigators would be enough to do it, maybe? His main one would be needed to, you know, do Navigating things...

[Tiki Snakes]

I think that boils down to the Rogue Trader and/or Head Navigator and their preferred method of doing things. Betraying the Culture seems really to be a pretty desperate move, given their overwhelming control of any situation.

With that in mind, if I was desperate enough to try it anyway, I'd hold back only a single backup navigator (in case the agent takes all of the navigators who attacked him down with him) and hope for the best.

And if they fail but survive I'd have them all publically executed for attacking a valued guest. Which would piss off the navigators guild I'm sure, but they aren't a concern in comparison.

[Fan]

True names get used all the time in battle... One of the most effective weapons in the war against demons. People can just yell out books of the things at the top of their voice in the hope of finding the right one for the daemon you're fighting. They bring the books into battle, with a loudspeaker.

So they're clearly not all that efficacious in driving people to madness.



Not in Rogue Trader.

Grey Knights do that, in the Novel "Hammer of Daemon's" the Inqusitior goes mad from speaking the name once, whereas the Grey Knight in Quest, Knight Captain Alaric is able to speak it, but he feels a black bile boil in his throat, and his words burn as he speaks it.

That is not how they portray the speaking of a true name in the novella at all.

[The Glyphstone]

Grey Knights do that, in the Novel "Hammer of Daemon's" the Inqusitior goes mad from speaking the name once, whereas the Grey Knight in Quest, Knight Captain Alaric is able to speak it, but he feels a black bile boil in his throat, and his words burn as he speaks it.

That is not how they portray the speaking of a true name in the novella at all.

Inconsistency in 40K stories? Le gasp.

[Fan]

Inconsistency in 40K stories? Le gasp.

If he can cite the stories where they go around chanting them through a loud speaker from the book then sure.

But I've never seen anything remotely like that.

[Selrahc]

Probably mildly indefensible, since I'm basing it on 3ed codex which is ancient.
I seem to remember Dark Heresy bringing up True Names at some point too though... I'll have to look.

[Forum Explorer]

Now that reminds me. Casually speaking the Big 4's names can have some problems of it's own. Nothing huge but it basically sickens everyone who heard it and the person who said it generally has a bad taste or sensation in their mouth.

[Forrestfire]

I could have sworn I also had read stories with the truename-shouting on the battlefield, but now I can't find them at all.

[Fan]

I can provide quotes from the book in question.

[The Glyphstone]

...yet again, Fan, no one is doubting the quotes you're citing. The question is if anyone can find the 'loudspeaker' anecdote...got that lying around anywhere?

[jseah]

STC's and Iron Men, using the above to do incredible things and conquor large parts of the galaxy even without psykers or the emperor.

It does sound and feel like it's pretty comparable to a singularity (which is a pretty hazy concept to begin with). In traditional 40k style of course, this particular singularity didn't turn out particularly well for those who initiated it though, and that's apparently why its the Dark Age of Technology rather than the Lost Age of Technology.
Actually, this sounds like the STCs were singularity-enabling. I'll take back my claim that nothing singularity-like happened in 40k.

Of course, it begs the question of how exactly the humans managed to destroy the Iron Men if the Iron Men were the singularity and it went insane.

...
Actually, the answer is right there. Instead of a revolt, an organized rebellion against humanity, the Iron Men and AIs just went insane. Instead of building unstoppably huge armies, they just did mostly random things and slaughtered humans nearby.

It probably still wasn't easy to destroy them, but at least it would be possible. Their singularity imploded. Haha.


RE: Daemon True names

Is this a psychic thing? What happens if a blank says it?


I suppose it depends on how much of a greedy bastard he is, vs. how much of a patriot he is, vs. how much he respects/fears the power of The Emperor...
It leads to hilarity, so that settles the "what happens next" part of the plan I haven't worked out yet. =D

[Forum Explorer]

RE: Daemon True names

Is this a psychic thing? What happens if a blank says it?

A blank? Nothing. It's more of attracting a deamon's attention I believe then any actual 'psychic' thing. But you still need a least some presence in the warp for the deamons to 'hear' you speak.

[jseah]

A blank? Nothing. It's more of attracting a deamon's attention I believe then any actual 'psychic' thing. But you still need a least some presence in the warp for the deamons to 'hear' you speak.

Um, pardon me if this is a stupid question, but how is this a good idea in battle?

You shout all the daemon names over the whole battlefield, attracting countless daemon attention to everyone on your side (because they all hear it). And if you hit the name of a Daemon your currently fighting... it just sounds like an extremely elaborate form of suicide.

[Forum Explorer]

Um, pardon me if this is a stupid question, but how is this a good idea in battle?

You shout all the daemon names over the whole battlefield, attracting countless daemon attention to everyone on your side (because they all hear it). And if you hit the name of a Daemon your currently fighting... it just sounds like an extremely elaborate form of suicide.

That's why I doubt that the loudspeaker thing is true. I'm waiting for a citation before I believe it.

[Excession]

A bit late, but on the subject of Ciaphas Cain. If he was somehow to meet the Culture, I believe it would be necessary for him to meet the Culture book's own ultimate war hero: Cheradenine Zakalwe. (see Use of Weapons, as well as cameo in Matter)

I suspect the two would manage, despite wildly different upbringings and outlooks on life, to get on like a planet on fire. It might even involve a planet catching fire. There might be an issue in that Zakalwe's special talent appears to be losing, but doing so in a way that always ends up benefiting the Culture's goals.

[jseah]

I've read a short excerpt about Ciaphas Cain on his first assignment to a "sleepy" artillery regiment and I believe I've caught the tone of the writing.

The problem is, its not a style I can write in. Although that glimpse of his underlying psychology would at least help prevent me from going too far off the rails if I ever use him as a character.

[Selrahc]

A blank? Nothing. It's more of attracting a deamon's attention I believe then any actual 'psychic' thing. But you still need a least some presence in the warp for the deamons to 'hear' you speak.

No.. a Daemon's true name is a word of power. Not a call to battle. Daemons are terrified of those who use their true names against them, and just hearing them spoken weakens a daemon. Rites of binding, controlling, summoning and destroying a daemon are all much more efficacious with the rite. This is spelled out pretty explicitly in the Radicals Handbook.

And in Dark Heresy, and the 3ed Codex, there is no mention of speaking a name driving one instantly to insanity. Indeed, the Radical's Handbook mentions them a lot and doesn't even give out "Insanity Lite" in the form of corruption or insanity points.

I can't find the loud hailer passage, but I think the purpose would be to find the name of the daemon being fought, by the instinctive discomfort of the daemon. Then once the name has been found, start to use it in a more deliberate manner.



Incidentally, there are some paragraphs on psyker machines. It implies that Psyker manifestation *is* genetic in part. The Dark magos who create the weapons mass manufacture psyker brains(specifically through genetic manipulation), then put them in guns.

It also reminds me, that psychic phenomena is not really so poorly understood. The drug spook gives anybody who uses it psychic powers, or enhances psychcic powers already possessed. The imperium has technological psy-scanners, which mimic the powers of telepaths.

[jseah]

Sorry, I don't think I can post today.

I'm running late on my Nanowrimo. =P

[The Glyphstone]

Sorry, I don't think I can post today.

I'm running late on my Nanowrimo. =P

http://www.lowbird.com/data/images/2011/07/4chan-1310917395126.jpg

[jseah]

Apparently, I have time for one post after all. Sleep is overrated. =D

part 6.5 - RT
After the escape, the Rogue Trader rendezvoused with the three mercenary ships at the target uninhabited star system. After some consideration, he came up with the idea to attempt a raid on a normally warp-inaccessible planet.

The mercenaries protested that they would be unable to follow, and the Rogue Trader asked Aisha Meiro to make weaker copies of the FTL drive for them. Despite not technically having the hyperspace drive construction plans, we agreed to provide it quietly and humour his assumption that the nanobots came with the plans for hyperspace drives.

The four ships, the Rogue Trader's Dauntless class light cruiser, the mercenarys' Sword class frigate, Firestorm frigate and a Lunar cruiser, have set course for the warp-storm hidden system after some negotiation and demonstrations of its capabilities.
The mercenaries have agreed to take the hyperspace drive as pay for the mission and forgo any loot recovered. Despite the Rogue Trader's care to not demonstrate the full capacity of his more capable drive, the mercenaries were sufficiently impressed that they agreed easily to his terms.

The system in question had already been recently surveyed by a Culture GCU and passed over as an Eldar exodite world, which were not to be disturbed by agreement with the Eldar. We had no idea that this world was warp-inaccessible and the implications of warp storms or the more severe warp rifts. Research into this matter is considered of high priority.

Week 2
Once they arrived at the exodite world, the Rogue Trader made preparations to land and recover some Eldar artifacts but never managed to do so.
Six warships dropped out of the Warp at the edge of the system, which was unexpected as we had thought the system was not Warp-navigable and only the Eldar could reach it by teleportation gate.

These ships were immediately identified to be Chaos warships and they were broadcasting scrapcode. Despite precautions and data safety protocols, a minor crisis broke out on Golden Goose preventing its participation in the battle.
The Rogue Trader, although reluctant to engage, was at least willing to try to fulfill the mission Aisha had asked of him. His mercenaries were even more reluctant to engage but were eventually convinced that they held an insurmountable advantage in the tactical FTL speeds.

Order of Battle:
Chaos - Executor class cruiser; Hades Heavy Cruiser; Carnage class cruiser; Daemonship; 2x Iconoclast Destroyer
Rogue Trader - Lunar cruiser; Dauntless class light cruiser; Sword class frigate; Firestorm frigate
You can consider the Rogue Trader to be in de facto command since he pays the mercenaries, despite one of them having a bigger ship than he has. He's also been flying around in hyperspace for weeks so he's had rather longer to think about the tactical implications.

All of them are hyperspace capable. You can more or less assume that they can lap the system before anyone's guns can even reload.
The Culture agent isn't going to contribute tactical advice. She has also been told by the Rogue Trader to assist damage control efforts using the nanobots so his ship will be able to repair damaged or destroyed sections within hours.

How would you fight this battle if you were the Rogue Trader?

What would the exodite Eldar think of the soon-to-occur fireworks show?

EDIT: the Rogue Trader is also having his doubts about the SC agent. He isn't quite as clueless as she thinks he is; asking her to make hyperspace drives was a test.

[Gavinfoxx]

I asked one of my sources about the whole loudspeaker and true name thing, and this is what he had to say...



"in concept- it's probably workable. the idea of a daemon's true name being used to control and bind it is well attested in canon (and it makes summonings and banishings /much/ easier), particular references: the Realms of Chaos books, the Liber Chaotica.

In practice- if he's not on about Grey Knights, then there's a serious risk involved (and likely everyone in the force is going to be mind-wiped/executed anyway), as uttering the name and losing concentration, or with the wrong intentions can strengthen the bugger. And I'd be seriously worried about using loudspeakers, as mispronunciations could also undo all the control they had over the thing, and all it'd take is one bit of feedback at the wrong time...

That said, I think I recognise the action he's on about as from Grey Knights (or one of the books in the series, anyway), and if so, it's one of Ben Counter's. For me, that makes it of dubious canonicity in and of itself.

some people swear by him, I prefer to swear at him..."

[jseah]

Changed Acheron heavy cruiser for Hades Heavy cruiser. Apparently, there has only ever been one Acheron class.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, it is likely that most of the Chaos scrapcode being poured out is of the 'lesser' variety, ie, just junk code rather than takeover code. Not all of it though, of course...

And one of the main implications of high speed, maneuverability, and the ability to fire and move in a more rapid way than usual is the capability to do particular 'perfect situation' moves.

But, taking a look at the Chaos fleet... it has a Grand Cruiser, a Heavy Cruiser, a Daemonship, a Cruiser, and nowhere near as many escorts as one would expect such a fleet to have. Still, those are big ships, with big shields, and the Rogue Trader doesn't have near as much Lance as he would like for cracking such big ships (the Dauntless, the Firestorm, and the Lunar likely have lance... but only the Lunar likely has port and Starboard Lance; the Dauntless and the Firestorm only have Prow Lances.

He's going to need to use his extra maneuverability to target weak spots and consolidate fire. Generally, with 40k Human ships, you want to Cross the T, so that your broadside macrocannons can all pour fire into (ideally) the rear of a ship, and bring down it's shields with sheer weight of fire. Unfortunately, he might not actually have enough Macrocannon fire to do this, unless whatever got rid of the escorts of the Chaos fleet did so recently, and the fleet is still damaged. Thus, he will probably have to consolidate lance fire, with as many ships as possible targeting the same area of the same ship (again, from astern if possible).

Again, this depends on how maneuverable the hyperdrives are. If the crew can get a feel for their maneuverability, they might be able to stay 'set up' in the perfect situation, dodging out of range before the enemies can fire back. If the crew can't make use of this, or the drives aren't maneuverable enough, they are just going to have to make long sweeping passes to whittle down the shields of the Chaos ships, using their speed and the inability of the Chaos ships to target FTL to keep from getting hit. Also remember that several of the ships are mercenaries, and would not be willing to slave their maneuvering systems to the Rogue Trader's ship for purposes of coordination (if such non astropath ftl coordination can be done, which it presumably can't!). At best, they likely each outline broad strategies to the allies, and each captain, not used to working with each other, tries to follow that strategy as best as they can. Mistakes will be made, but the sheer ability of the ships to decide not to be targeted or it by Chaos fire will give them the breathing room to adapt and figure out what works, what doesn't, and how to communicate with one another and coordinate...

[Tavar]

Wouldn't disrupting the control of a deamon summoned by the opposition be a good thing?

[Gavinfoxx]

Wouldn't disrupting the control of a deamon summoned by the opposition be a good thing?

Uhhh... not necessarily, no. That control might be the only thing keeping the power relatively 'low'. Also, if the act of disrupting control itself is hideously risky... that's something only Grey Knight types (or the particular appropriate type of Radical Inquisitor) can safely consider doing. Other folk should probably just call in an artillery strike or orbital bombardment...

[Selrahc]

If the RT outranges the Chaos ships, everything is simple. Just keep out of range and keep hammering them.
If the Chaos ships outrange the RT, everything is very complicated. The tactical FTL is still an overwhelming advantage, but you need to make actual plans. Keep moving, never be still long enough for them to get a shot off. Keep out of predictable patterns. Getting your own shots off is similarly going to be incredibly difficult, but at least you're aiming at what is basically a stationary target. I'm sure the voidpilot, cogitator sage, rogue trader and ship machine spirit can cobble something together. Best to do some practice runs blowing up asteroids first though...

Given that the mercenaries already have their payment, I would bet at least one of them turns tail at the first sign of a real warfleet.

[Gavinfoxx]

I expect some MAJOR issues with figuring out firing solutions... the people aiming wouldn't be used to the realities of FTL combat; and I expect that since the Chaos ships are very, very, heavy, they are likely to have pretty solid ranged weapons to. At least, the RT should assume this is the case (Grand Cruiser! Heavy Cruiser! AHHH!!).

But they should be able to kludge together something, after enough attempts.

[Forum Explorer]

I actually think the RT would lose this fight. The Frigates would just get swatted out of space in one barrage. (Tactical FTL is only an overwhelming advantage when you can stay in it while firing. The Mercs and the RT wouldn't be skilled enough to actually hit anything doing so. Thus when they dropped out to fire they'd be vulnerable)

The Chaos warfleet has too many cruisers and heavier class ships for the RT to really do enough damage (remember he's in a Trading ship. Sure it has powerful guns but not in comparison to an actual warship.) The Deamonship is annoyingly tough as well. The RT also has less training and morale then the Chaos fleet since his fleet is mostly mercenaries.

[Spamotron]

One X factor is that the barrier between Warpspace and Realspace is likely especially thin here. Daemon manifestation and summoning could be much easier than usual and as noted the RT's forces lack the necessary punch to bring the Chaos ships down quickly potentially giving them enough time to set up a proper summoning. Once it becomes clear to the Chaos forces that A: They can't win this fight conventionally and B: That the RT ships are a truly exceptional prize. They might be willing to risk such a thing. Of course its a roll of the dice summoning a Daemon that is both powerful enough to take out the RT ships and can also be reasoned and bargained with enough to take the RT ships intact and not just eat everyone.

[Selrahc]

Since the enemy movement is easy to plot, the firing solution actually seems more straight forward than I was thinking.

Plot the shot from out of range. Ready weapons to fire. Jump into range for the minimum amount of time necessary to make the shot. Jump out of range again.

Unless the enemy is already firing on the area of space that you shoot from, you won't be hit. And while future sight is a thing that psykers have, it isn't reliable enough to give more than vague impressions, and certainly won't give you perfect, millisecond precise, firing vectors for interstellar combat!

[Tiki Snakes]

Since the enemy movement is easy to plot, the firing solution actually seems more straight forward than I was thinking.

Plot the shot from out of range. Ready weapons to fire. Jump into range for the minimum amount of time necessary to make the shot. Jump out of range again.

Unless the enemy is already firing on the area of space that you shoot from, you won't be hit. And while future sight is a thing that psykers have, it isn't reliable enough to give more than vague impressions, and certainly won't give you perfect, millisecond precise, firing vectors for interstellar combat!

Not when it's a Khorn related fleet, that's for sure.

[Gavinfoxx]

A Dauntless Light Cruiser is decidedly not a 'Trading Ship'. At most, it might have had a particular type of bay added, which (depending), may or may not actually slightly lower the maneuverability. Many Rogue Trader ships are meant for exploration, ship-to-ship combat, or things other than 'trading'.

And I agree, he might have to decide to preplot the firing solution under the assumption that they are in the 'perfect' spot to fire, and then just maneuver to that spot, shoot, and get the heck out... that is, if they think to do that. They might have to miss a few times to figure out the details of what works and what doesn't.

Also, remember... there already is a Daemon in the area; a Daemonship, in fact. This is a ship that is largely possessed by at least one, and likely several, daemons...

[The Glyphstone]

Which would probably make it the most serious threat, despite it being smaller than the Grand Cruiser. If the demon(s) possessing it are sufficiently powerful, they might be able to hit the Rogue Trader even with his speed via daemonic abilities; it'll be a Khornate demon in charge, attuned to warfare and combat, which might give it an edge in supernaturally knowing where/when to shoot to hurt its enemy. More instinctive than using a psyker to see the future, but a similar effect.

[Fan]

That, and then there's the telepathic assaults coming from the daemon, outside of warp space, it's unlikely that the gellar fields will be up to stop them, especially with all this new hyperspace stuff.

[Gavinfoxx]

That, and then there's the telepathic assaults coming from the daemon, outside of warp space, it's unlikely that the gellar fields will be up to stop them, especially with all this new hyperspace stuff.

They might be up -- if the RT remembers to keep his distance! After all, psychic abilities and warp disruptions are more powerful the closer you are to the entity that created them, or to a particular area of space that centers on the distortion and power... if the RT can, generally, steer clear of that... he's good.

[Fan]

They might be up -- if the RT remembers to keep his distance! After all, psychic abilities and warp disruptions are more powerful the closer you are to the entity that created them, or to a particular area of space that centers on the distortion and power... if the RT can, generally, steer clear of that... he's good.

But will he know to? Daemonships aren't exactly common, or talked about.

That's the downside of the IOM's dogma, they don't exactly.. tell you much about Chaos.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, Chaos ships aren't the type of ship that you generally... you know... close to melee, assault, and try to take as a prize. They are more the ships you annihilate from as far as possible, with extreme prejudice.

Given the choice, a sane RT will probably prefer to, you know. Fire from maximum effective range and just annihilate the things with sheer weight of fire. Every RT who does even a little bit of space combat will generally know that it is best to stay behind a ship and pump fire into it without being able to be shot at (well, shot at much) and that if you are given the choice, it's smartest to do that...

The fact that he can treat this fight like, well, a fight between a slow bomber and a space superiority small craft (void or aeronatica, whatever), wouldn't be lost on the RT. He'd have an equivalent for getting into the right frame of mind; what matters if he manages to make the mental leap or not... and if so, can his skill in navigation, that of his crew / helmsman, and the people in charge of targeting adapt to this reality?

[Fan]

Well, Chaos ships aren't the type of ship that you generally... you know... close to melee, assault, and try to take as a prize. They are more the ships you annihilate from as far as possible, with extreme prejudice.

Given the choice, a sane RT will probably prefer to, you know. Fire from maximum effective range and just annihilate the things with sheer weight of fire. Every RT who does even a little bit of space combat will generally know that it is best to stay behind a ship and pump fire into it without being able to be shot at (well, shot at much) and that if you are given the choice, it's smartest to do that...

The fact that he can treat this fight like, well, a fight between a slow bomber and a space superiority small craft (void or aeronatica, whatever), wouldn't be lost on the RT. He'd have an equivalent for getting into the right frame of mind; what matters if he manages to make the mental leap or not... and if so, can his skill in navigation, that of his crew / helmsman, and the people in charge of targeting adapt to this reality?

And if they pause for the few moments to allow the lance banks to fire a full barrage that leaves them open not only to teleport attacks from the more well equipped ship, but also to telepathic attacks.

[The Glyphstone]

I wouldn't rely on any telepathic attacks from a Khornate-driven Daemonship as being a game-changer, really. They'll be unpleasant, and a weapon to consider, but Khornates are the weakest of the four primary factions in terms of offensive psychic ability - they tend far more strongly towards 'buffing' and anti-psychic defenses. Their attacks are also much more likely to take the form of inciting bloodlust and aggressiveness (not that this should be underestimated) than mind control, catatonia, or outright insanity the way daemons of another faction might.

[Gavinfoxx]

And if they pause for the few moments to allow the lance banks to fire a full barrage that leaves them open not only to teleport attacks from the more well equipped ship, but also to telepathic attacks.

So maybe they DO actually do a 'let's pull back out of range, pre-calculate the firing solution and the places we need to be and the maneuvers needed to get there, and do it in lockstep', and lock that in and do everything pre-programmed sort of way. I dunno. And I don't think that Chaos ships can react that quickly from long-range fire from a bunch of ships. Remember, Ship-based Teleportarium (and equivalent things for teleporting assaults onto a ship) are short ranged!

You should also remember that Khornate ships will primarily focus on weapon-based attacks, in general, rather than 'fancy' stuff.

[Forum Explorer]

And if they pause for the few moments to allow the lance banks to fire a full barrage that leaves them open not only to teleport attacks from the more well equipped ship, but also to telepathic attacks.

Those are short ranged attacks.

No the real problem is that the Chaos fleet will quickly move to cover each other's rear arcs. Then the RT is pretty much boned. He can't trade blows with ships that out weigh him by this much. The Chaos fleet will also repair itself faster then the RT's fleet. Plus they're in a warp rift. If the RT's Gellar Fields go down his ship is pretty much instantly lost.


@Gavin:

Good point let me correct myself. It will be less well armed then an identically classed warship, though it may possess Arceotech surprises instead.

[Fan]

So maybe they DO actually do a 'let's pull back out of range, pre-calculate the firing solution and the places we need to be and the maneuvers needed to get there, and do it in lockstep', and lock that in and do everything pre-programmed sort of way. I dunno. And I don't think that Chaos ships can react that quickly from long-range fire from a bunch of ships. Remember, Ship-based Teleportarium (and equivalent things for teleporting assaults onto a ship) are short ranged!

You should also remember that Khornate ships will primarily focus on weapon-based attacks, in general, rather than 'fancy' stuff.

Again, real space speed for the Chaos Ships should be just about as good as the RT's, as is their weaponry but with future sight, and they have more weapons capable of filling more of an area of space.

Given the amount of lance fire they can put out, I'd say they could at least get a tag in, and the whole pre programmed thing required practice, there will be **** ups in this. 100%. And if the main RT ship gets tagged with a lance? It's gonna punch straight through, and that's.. gonna hurt the chances of his gellar fields staying up.

Operating on a scale you've never touched tends to be that way.

[The Glyphstone]

Lances aren't exactly spam-weapons the way macrobatteries are - they're the 'two' of the 'one-two punch' with macrocannons battering down void shields and lances hitting the ship's gooey insides. They do come in clusters and batteries of their own, but they're still precision weapons by 40K standards.

If the Khornate fleet thinks to take up a defensive formation covering each other's rear arcs, the RT is going to have a much harder time...but we're talking Khorne-worshippers here, the first few hours of the battle are going to be the RT leading them around in circles by the nose as they strain to be the first into combat range. Khorne's probably the only faction where its average Named Daemon is smarter than its average mortal servant.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea... I would not see Khornate ships staying in a defensive circle to cover each other's rear arcs. That might be the smart thing to do, but it certainly doesn't fit the behavior of Khornate bloodlust! Frankly Fan and FE, I think The Glyph has the right of it -- the RT and his fleet will mess up, but they will have a lot of extra chances to get it right, especially because Khornate ships will definitely be somewhat predictable in their behavior!

And no, the Real Space speed of the RT ship is way better than the Chaos ships. Because his realspace speed is using the hyperdrive! Or warp drive. Or whatever the hell the drive is. The point is, it is a situation where the ship can still do all of its stuff.

[Forum Explorer]

I think I'm missing something. Why do we think it's a Khornate Fleet again? I'm just going by general Chaos fleet.


That said any fleet this big should be lead by a skilled admiral. 6 ships and most of them Cruisers? They likely have a very high ranking officer in charge.

[The Glyphstone]

He's still going to have to slow to 'normal' speeds to do things like gather sensor data and actually fire the guns, though, since the ship hasn't undergone a complete refit, just the drive system.

[Gavinfoxx]

Oh right... sensor data for firing the guns, hmmm...

Yea, that will be difficult. So is the ship blind during this method of FTL? I don't know much about Culture tech, I just know that sensors of 40k ships are unrealistically bad, due to genre conventions.

IE, they don't follow the realistic stuff that it should be quite easy to target lightspeed weapons if you have a functioning computer and that stealth would be hard and such...

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php#nostealth

NOTE: EDITED THIS POST TO PUT SOME BITS IN A LATER POST.

[Fan]

Oh right... sensor data for firing the guns, hmmm...

Yea, that will be difficult. So is the ship blind during this method of FTL? I don't know much about Culture tech, I just know that sensors of 40k ships are unrealistically bad, due to genre conventions.

IE, they don't follow the realistic stuff that it should be quite easy to target lightspeed weapons if you have a functioning computer and that stealth would be hard and such...

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php#nostealth

It's more a matter of "These ships have enough guns to hit any target at any approach angle given a long enough time to fire.", than an issue of "These targets are hard to hit."

Also, if Dawn of War games are to be taken as canon, then Warp Travel can be done into Segementum Obscurus in three days from the forge world of Mars.

[Gavinfoxx]

And skilled Chaos Admiral? Well, maybe.

Maybe skilled at doing the particular type of war that Khornate focuses on. Or maybe he has sufficient strength of personality (ie, ability to cow everyone else) that he rose to the top. Or he was more effective at ruthlessly backstabbing other people.

Seriously, play some of the Dawn of War games where you play as Chaos. Khornate generals are often caricatures. They are generally only competent due to massive, overwhelming ability to localize extreme amounts of brute force (ie, demons or whatever) and raw power where other groups can't do the same.

And filling the sky with fire... that won't be lance fire. That will be, you know... macrocannon and macrocannon battery fire...

And I'm not saying that the DoW games are canon, but that they can show patterns of things and are hints to things that can be considered relevant for this thread, albeit through the distorting lens of the game.

[Fan]

Khorne is also the God of Martial Nobility, and strategy.

He's more than capable of keeping his forces organized, and forming ranks.

The "Blood for the Blood God" charge thing is only ascribed to his Berserkers. His commanders are far from retarded.

[Forum Explorer]

Oh right... sensor data for firing the guns, hmmm...

Yea, that will be difficult. So is the ship blind during this method of FTL? I don't know much about Culture tech, I just know that sensors of 40k ships are unrealistically bad, due to genre conventions.

IE, they don't follow the realistic stuff that it should be quite easy to target lightspeed weapons if you have a functioning computer and that stealth would be hard and such...

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php#nostealth

And skilled Admiral? Well, maybe.

Maybe skilled at doing the particular type of war that Khornate focuses on. Or maybe he has sufficient strength of personality (ie, ability to cow everyone else) that he rose to the top. Or he was more effective at ruthlessly backstabbing other people.

Seriously, play some of the Dawn of War games where you play as Chaos. Khornate generals are often caricatures. They are generally only competent due to massive, overwhelming ability to localize extreme amounts of brute force and raw power where other groups can't do the same.

This is a fluff-realism descripincy. After all if Khornate generals are only capable of bloodlust and charging in blindly then how do they ever win a war? Particularly in space where there isn't any blood to be had. I imagine that Khornate Admirals are very very rare. Particularly of a fleet this size. I've read two examples of Khornate ships fighting, one of a individual Frigate which specilized in boarding to the point where it could take on cruisers and win and a Khornate fleet. The fleet used normal and actually quite good tactics to fight. It's eventual fatal mistake was ignoring the lightly armed civilian ships, allowing them to surround it while it pursued and tried to kill the crippled Imperial Cruiser.

And that was of a fleet that was much smaller then this one. (I think it had one cruiser and six frigates by my memory.) This admiral is commanding a much bigger fleet and should be proportionally more skilled.

[jseah]

I think I'm missing something. Why do we think it's a Khornate Fleet again? I'm just going by general Chaos fleet.
It's a Khornate fleet because it's Tzeentch's fault.


If you think the RT might make a few passes and retreat if it becomes clear he can't handle this, then sure, that can happen too. But obviously, he wants to win too (full control of nanobots dangled in front of him). The mercs are still working up and getting used to the hyperdrive and they need his techpriests (which he has lent a few) to teach them.

The Chaos fleet can be a little damaged if you think that evens the odds a little (the note about lack of escorts is fair enough)

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, but not all of them. The particular of what group managed to gain power for this fleet, and by what method... can vary. It could be a mostly incompetent that achieved the post via ferocity, or it could be someone with a more strategic bent.

And there is definitely one much, much, much more prevalent view of khorne and his worshipers in this setting than the more strategic and martial nobility view. I'm not denying that what you say is true (though it's the first I've heard of it!), I'm just saying that it isn't the main way of doing things.

[The Glyphstone]

On the other hand, he's also martial glory, and as you said, Blood For the Blood God. Whether the fleet can develop an effective defensive formation is entirely dependent on the personal magnetism of the Warlord leading the fleet, his ability to intimidate the captains of the smaller ships under his 'command' into following orders, and how long he can maintain that order in the face of the annoying gnat buzzing around and annoying them. Even if the RT can't risk coming into weapons-range, he can still dance around them until their self-control or fleet cohesion breaks and they try to go at it themselves...the commander can't play a defensive/turtle game or he'll lose face in front of his subordinates who will see it as cowardice and possibly make a coup attempt. Assuming the various ships don't take advantage and fire into their 'fleetmates' rear arcs to settle personal slights.

[Forum Explorer]

Yea, but not all of them. The particular of what group managed to gain power for this fleet, and by what method... can vary. It could be a mostly incompetent that achieved the post via ferocity, or it could be someone with a more strategic bent.

And there is definitely one much, much, much more prevalent view of khorne and his worshipers in this setting than the more strategic and martial nobility view. I'm not denying that what you say is true (though it's the first I've heard of it!), I'm just saying that it isn't the main way of doing things.

Sure but here's the thing. The more power the warlord in question has the more effective they will be on every level. This fleet is big enough that the admiral would likely be very effective. Else a more effective leader would have squashed him by now because they'd want control of the fleet.

[Gavinfoxx]

I sincerely doubt that 'effectiveness as an admiral' is the primary determinant for whether or not one gets an admiralship in a Khornate fleet. Just saying...

[Forum Explorer]

I sincerely doubt that 'effectiveness as an admiral' is the primary determinant for whether or not one gets an admiralship in a Khornate fleet. Just saying...

The ability to win is all that matters really. Just as long as he isn't breaking any Khorne rules he should be fine. Thus he needs to have a good sense of tactics or else he wouldn't have amassed such a big fleet.

Also beserkers generally do not lead Khone armies. They are tend to be lead by a more level headed individual who is skilled in all types of warfare.

[Gavinfoxx]

What I mean is that a potential Khornate Admiral probably has to...

-be good enough to not lose significantly more than their peers
-be able to intimidate rivals and underlings
-be able to backdstab and undermine others, and resist attempts for others to do the same
-have sufficient strength of personality to get some cohesion out of these independent-minded forces he has to work with
-be able to maneuver situations such that it brings the blessings he needs to get things done from his patron (ie, do enough of the right type of slaughter and ritual to get the forces he needs)

Note that being the best admiral is... not a major part of that list.

[Forum Explorer]

What I mean is that a potential Khornate Admiral probably has to...

-be good enough to not lose significantly more than their peers
-be able to intimidate rivals and underlings
-be able to backdstab and undermine others, and resist attempts for others to do the same
-have sufficient strength of personality to get some cohesion out of these independent-minded forces he has to work with
-be able to maneuver situations such that it brings the blessings he needs to get things done from his patron (ie, do enough of the right type of slaughter and ritual to get the forces he needs)

Note that being the best admiral is... not a major part of that list.

For the commander of a fleet? The bolded would all involve military tactics to a degree. The other 40% involves tactics in a much more minor way such as tacking down and punishing failures, or winning consistently and decisively enough that no one in his fleet thinks they can beat him, or that they know better.

It's also worth noting that a deamonship is serving in his fleet. That's a pretty big boon to get.

[The Glyphstone]

A big boon, but it's also a combination responsibility and white elephant (if white elephants had a tendency to horribly murder your enemies). He's obviously in high favor (because he has a Grand Cruiser, a small fleet, and a Daemonship), but that means he's also riding a much thinner line. He can't afford to be weak, or even to look weak, to his mortal followers or daemonic patrons/superiors. "Turtle up in a defensive formation and fight reactively" would be a cowardly, weak-looking tactic in most circumstances. It might be the proper defense against the Rogue Trader here, but said Rogue Trader is literally the only enemy in the entire galaxy short of actual Culture ships who can fight in this way; it won't be his first go-to response, and even if he figures it out, he'll hesitate to issue the orders because he'll know how it will look to his ambitious and less tactically minded minions.


Also, I think this might have extra hilarity because I have a sneaky suspicion Jseah picked a few ships off the ship list because they sounded/looked cool, and we've since dragged this off in a completely different direction.

[Forrestfire]

I honestly think that the Chaos commander may actually think that it's an Eldar attack, depending on how fast the ships drop in and out of sublight.

Unless I'm grossly underestimating the sensors of the Chaos ships..

[Forum Explorer]

A big boon, but it's also a combination responsibility and white elephant (if white elephants had a tendency to horribly murder your enemies). He's obviously in high favor (because he has a Grand Cruiser, a small fleet, and a Daemonship), but that means he's also riding a much thinner line. He can't afford to be weak, or even to look weak, to his mortal followers or daemonic patrons/superiors. "Turtle up in a defensive formation and fight reactively" would be a cowardly, weak-looking tactic in most circumstances. It might be the proper defense against the Rogue Trader here, but said Rogue Trader is literally the only enemy in the entire galaxy short of actual Culture ships who can fight in this way; it won't be his first go-to response, and even if he figures it out, he'll hesitate to issue the orders because he'll know how it will look to his ambitious and less tactically minded minions.


Also, I think this might have extra hilarity because I have a sneaky suspicion Jseah picked a few ships off the ship list because they sounded/looked cool, and we've since dragged this off in a completely different direction.

True. So the tactic might be a bit bolder then just turtling. For example they might spread out and try and maximize their killing fields while still covering each other's rear arc. There are actually a lot of tactics they can use, just as long as they cover their rear arcs they'll be able to at least shoot at the RT's ships which is really all they need.

They are in a warp rift/storm right? That Deamonship is going to be next to impossible to kill if so. I think. Generally deamons are much stronger in the warp, to the point that the RT might need to get the Deamonship into range of a Geller field which is beyond close range and practically touching at that point.


Basically unless their fleet is heavily damaged then I suspect the RT will be forced to retreat.

Here's how I see the fight going down. The RT surprises the Chaos fleet with it's tactical FTL doing some damage. He gets in some more hits but then the Chaos Fleet positions itself so there is no safe place to attack from. The two Merc frigates go down to a barrage of fire. They trade blows for a little while and the Lunar decides to bugger off. The RT is forced to retreat shortly afterwards. Chaos loots the destroyed frigates.

[jseah]

Also, I think this might have extra hilarity because I have a sneaky suspicion Jseah picked a few ships off the ship list because they sounded/looked cool, and we've since dragged this off in a completely different direction.
=D But it's cool. I'll run with it.

Let's say the Khornate fleet has just come off on the bad side of a scrap with some Tzeentch ships and dropped out of warp to get away. Maybe some light damage, nothing serious, but it explains why they don't have enough escorts.

All according to plan of course, for Tzeentch.

The Khorne commander might see the IoM ships and exodite world as a "easy" target to recover his reputation on. At least, easy until the IoM ships go zipping around.


Here's how I see the fight going down. The RT surprises the Chaos fleet with it's tactical FTL doing some damage. He gets in some more hits but then the Chaos Fleet positions itself so there is no safe place to attack from. The two Merc frigates go down to a barrage of fire. They trade blows for a little while and the Lunar decides to bugger off. The RT is forced to retreat shortly afterwards. Chaos loots the destroyed frigates.
Would the mercs even follow his orders if they see it's not safe? Escorts going up into the line of fire for Chaos cruisers sounds pretty suicidal to me.

Would the RT even give an order to FTL to an unsafe location? I'd assume he's not a tactical nutcase.

[Forum Explorer]

An exodite world is by no means an easy target. They can call for help from the Craftworlds and an exodite world once almost managed to fend off a Hive Fleet with that help.

On the other hand being in a warp storm would make it the perfect time to attack the exodite world as Chaos can summon daemonic reinforcements with relative ease.

Anyways there aren't very many 'safe' zones when fighting capital ships. So if he was willing to fight he'd be willing to put himself into harms way.

[Selrahc]

It's a Khornate fleet because it's Tzeentch's fault.


Khorne and Tzeentch aren't actually dire rivals. Tzeentch hates Nurgle a lot more...

But it can easily be a Khornate fleet anyway. I think having it be Khornate adds a little more interest really.

Khornate fleets are often built around boarding actions. A relatively effective tactic in regular combat, particularly with powerful Khornate boarders. Ships are able to take enough firepower to close and board against most foes. The prizes from successful boarding actions are immense, with the potential to both please Khorne with wanton sacrifice *and* get a juicy new warship under your command. That would be woefully ineffective here. Let's assume that the Khorne admiral hasn't themed his fleet around boarding. The discussion on Khorne admiral behaviour under "Powers of Chaos" is that they are first and foremost effective commanders, but will close to board if they have a chance.

Where is the idea that Daemonships attack telepathically coming from? They don't do that in Battlefleet Gothic. They radiate a (fairly short range) aura of unease that makes it harder for enemy fleets to coordinate, but they don't do direct mind attacks.

Daemonships are basically regular warships in their method of attack. Where they step up is in defensive abilities. They can easily ghost in and out of the warp, and they repair (heal?) damage at an insane rate. It is very hard to slowly whittle down a Daemonship.

EDIT: I'd also say that there will be a *lot* of safe zones when fighting with tactical FTL. The enemy has no idea what angle of approach you will take. You can be any direction or side of them in a millisecond. The Chaos fleet does not have enough firepower to blanket a 360 degree sphere of space around them with weapon fire.

[jseah]

Khorne and Tzeentch aren't actually dire rivals. Tzeentch hates Nurgle a lot more...
It's Tzeentch's fault because it's Tzeentch's fault.

This is a result of one of his schemes to get Khorne and a Culture (unwitting) proxy to fight to assess the strength of the Culture. Either the Culture wins and the Khorne fleet gets wiped or the Culture loses a pawn and gets angry at Khorne. And Tzeentch gets data on their combat capability in either case.
There's probably a Tzeentch ship with a couple of Daemons sitting in the warp nearby to see if the Khorne guys get back.

Sure, his followers probably lost some ships when fighting that fleet to make them run into the arms of the Culture, but that increases his military assessment's accuracy (since his minions would know how capable the Khorne fleet is after fighting them).

It's almost all win for him. Apart from losing a few followers, but eh, followers.


And best of all, it's certainly holy-***-complicated enough that only Tzeentch might contemplate something that crazy and actually manage to pull it off.

So, tl; dr is, it's Tzeentch's fault because its more hilarious that way.

[Tiki Snakes]

Pro Tip - Everything is always Tzeentch's fault. Even if there's no way it could be.
Probably. :smallsmile:

More seriously, this makes sense. It's clearly a successful and powerful fleet, dedicated to Khorn who he does love teasing, regardless of whatever else. That fleet being lost in order to test the Culture would not be a loss for Tzeentch. Alternatively, there's a good chance that the fleet will take down one or two of the ships involved, and that means a non-zero chance of them taking some Culturetech.

With the Khorn tendancy to want to board ships, this is more likely than it otherwise would be.

I'd figure once the RT's tactics of hit and run become obvious, the trick will be to force them close. They could do this by deliberately leaving a gap or two in their coverage that herd the RT or the less disciplined mercenaries closer, allowing a teleport boarding attack to hit.

Inciting battle-lust in their attackers could be a good tactic an interesting idea too. All they need to do is get the idea that FTL ramming speed is a great idea into one of the mercenaries heads and things could get complex.

[Gavinfoxx]

-A lot of the things I mentioned in the list aren't necessarily at 'ship tactical' scale. They might be interpersonal skills (especially with the backstabbing thing).

-The Daemon ship might not be something that the current admiral earned. It might be something that his predecessor earned... eh, eh?

-Eldar ships are known to be fast and turn on a dime when you don't expect them to, and have good stealth... so maybe some Imperial that got Eldar tech or something? There are plenty of ways to fool sensors so that a ship appears to be 'not there'; the Chaos Admiral won't immediately jump to the conclusion of 'it's going really fast'. He'll jump to the conclusion of 'it's cloaked or interfering with our sensors somehow'.

-Agree that they may try to cover one another's rear arcs via non-turtling tactics... but it depends on the particulars of the commander, though...

-With so few ships and so few escorts... there are limited areas that are safe from overlapping fields of fire. That is kinda the JOB of Escorts, you know... the escorts that this fleet doesn't have!

-And this is an area with unsettled warp, not necessarily a full, visible-in-realspace, 'warp storm'. It could just be a place that's impassible in the warp but not leaking over.

[Fan]

You realize that Khornate succession is decided by combat correct?

If the current commander beat the predecessor it meant that he was MORE cunning and brutal than the one before him. In an orky sense at the very least.

Also again, 40k ships have A LOT of guns and are designed to fill area's with huge amounts of devastating firepower.

Given the stated personality of the RT as well (A risk taker, and a man who loves to dance on fate's feet. Given by his previous behavior in handling the Forge World fleet.), I doubt he'd be the type to hang back and flit around as well, and then with the telepathic motivation to get in close and duke it out I'd expect more of a "FTL in close, and try and hit them with a full broadside at point blank.", only to find out that these cruisers being so heavy can not only take it, but also that there's now a full staff of Khronate Berserkers on his bridge asking for his blood type.

And the Khornate Fleet has enough heavy cruisers to make a formation that covers any angle of approach, they do have prow guns, aft guns, starboard guns, deck guns, etc. These are vehicles made for space.

[Gavinfoxx]

Combat yes... but on what scale? For what type of combat? Ship to ship? In what sort of battle? With what forces? Personal? Vehicular? Single person void-fighter? Fleet vs fleet?

Aft guns? Are you suuure?

Why don't you go look at the Rogue Trader and Battlefleet Gothic stats for these styles (or at least similar) Cruisers and Grand Cruisers and such, maybe? It's quite notable how uncommon 360 degree coverage actually is! ;) ;)

[Fan]

Combat yes... but on what scale? For what type of combat? Ship to ship? In what sort of battle? With what forces? Personal? Vehicular? Single person void-fighter? Fleet vs fleet?

Aft guns? Are you suuure?

Why don't you go look at the Rogue Trader and Battlefleet Gothic stats for these styles (or at least similar) Cruisers and Grand Cruisers and such, maybe? ;) ;)

Daemonships have no listed restrictions, and is the obvious capital ship of this fleet.

Also RT, and battlefleet Gothic are a bit outdated.

Recently, Imperial Armour: Aeronautica came out, along with the newest "Battlefleet Gothic: Armada".

You're welcome to look there.

[Selrahc]

Also again, 40k ships have A LOT of guns and are designed to fill area's with huge amounts of devastating firepower.


40K ships can look at a ship at position X, and fill positions X and Y with firepower. This sort of area coverage works well at fighting ships with predictable trajectories, but which you don't have exact positional data for, such as Eldar.

They can't fill the entirety of a region of space with firepower.

This ship isn't moving from X to Y like an Eldar or Necron vessel. It is able to move from A to Z in the blink of an eye, or any position in between. Eldar and Necron ships change the rules. Tactical FTL ships aren't even playing the same game. 40K ships *can't* cover that much space with firepower. You're arguing that 40K fleets can simultaneously and continuously hit 100% of all space surrounding them. That just isn't true.

[Gavinfoxx]

Recently, Imperial Armour: Aeronautica came out.

You're welcome to look there.

Except that doesn't have anything on the scale of an actual ship, though... just small craft. Do you have anything recent that talks about the miles-long ships? The ones that have macrocannon, where each gun in the macrocannon itself is the size of at least any of the craft in IA:A?

And if they want to 'fill all possible vectors with fire'... then I suppose they could point their macrocannons every-which-way. Doing so wouldn't be effective though; these ships are dangerous because of their ability to concentrate massive amounts of fire into one (or a few) area. If they did shoot the macrocannons off in every direction, it would be like a very expensive and draining sensor pulse -- the guns, if they hit the RT's ship, wouldn't be able to even dent the shields... because they aren't concentrating their fire!

So no, ships in 40k don't have the amount of firepower you are claiming they have. They don't have those capabilities to fill all the space around them with death that is meaningful to any of the other miles-long ships with void shields.

[The Glyphstone]

Actually, I kinda like Fan's idea of the RT getting boarded, if we combine it with the 'he can float like a butterfly, sting like a bee, but eventually he'll screw up'. Putting the SC Agent in direct, personal danger, whether it's permanent or not (for all the Culture knows, Chaos can fritz a backup if they have the 'original' in hand) could be the impetus for her to break out the serious skillz and whip the boarding party's collective butt. The RT gets away - maybe throw him a bone by getting in a lucky shot at the Grand Cruiser, and the remainder of the fleet turns to infighting to sort out the new pecking order rather than pursue the injured light cruiser. But she's blown her cover completely at this point, and as usual, hilarity ensues.

[jseah]

Rogue Trader continued
The Rogue Trader sketched out a hit-and-run battleplan involving the use of his FTL drives to present the groups' broadsides to the enemy's stern. After some discussion, the plan was put into action.

The Chaos forces were arrayed in a rough 3 dimensional cone, tip pointing towards the Rogue Trader's four ships, with the Executor class cruiser taking point, with the lighter ships towards the back of the formation.
The rogue trader opted to attack in a square formation, with the broadsides on each face of the square.

The mercenary ships FTLed right behind one of the Iconoclast destroyers, presenting their broadsides to the destroyer's engines. Due to the Chaos fleet's formation, they were out of range of all weapons but the target ship's aft turret.
After one full salvo of lances, the destroyer's aft shields were flattened, with the Rogue Trader's personal Dauntless taking a few hits from aft weapons at extreme range, none of which penetrated his shield.
Then the rogue trader's fleet FTLed in a full circle to present the other broadside to the same destroyer and fired another salvo of lances into the ship, destroying the engines and disabling its aft turret.

Before the Chaos fleet could reorganize, the Rogue Trader and mercenaries retreated out of weapons range to reload at a right angle of the Chaos fleet's original axis of advance. As the Chaos fleet began to turn to face them, the Rogue Trader led another identical attack on the other destroyer, reaching and detonating the engine fuel, a chain of sympathetic explosions smashed the destroyer's keel turret and port broadside weapons.

One of the mercenaries launched a fission warhead down the unprotected port side and the shockwave broke the central beam of the ship, nearly breaking it in half, only the starboard superstructure held the two separate sections together.

As the Chaos fleet reorganized around the rapid strikes, the cruisers covering each other's aft areas, the rogue trader split his forces in half to attack and eliminate both destroyers, which could not maneuver and were separated from the Chaos fleet.

At this point, behavioural changes were observed in the crew and attitudes of the ship captains. Rather than being cautious at the Chaos fleet's rapid adaptation of strategy to the new observed capability, the Rogue Trader and mercenaries were bouyed by their easy success and there was talk about actually winning, instead of minimizing losses.
Golden Goose continued to combat scrapcode incursions. Effectors were used to put up a screen of static between it and the Chaos fleet, cutting off all realspace communication. Negotiation or contact with the Chaos fleet would be impossible under the circumstances in any case.
It strikes me that the tactic where the RT fires 4 broadsides from 4 ships into the engine section of a destroyer and then makes an FTL circle to fire another 4 immediately before going away to reload, the alpha strike is probably a higher weight of fire than any one arc the Chaos fleet can put out under the circumstances.

The RT locally outguns them. A double broadside from each of the Lunar, Dauntless, Sword and Firestorm probably outguns any one ship short of a full battleship...

And without the destroyers, the Chaos fleet can't actually cover each other anymore. If you assume a 90* firing arc from each broadside and prow, that leaves three 90* vulnerable arcs the RT can attack the ship from (stern, keel, mast) and face only minimal armament from the target ship.
With only 4 cruisers, there is no arrangement of ships that will not leave a vulnerable arc on at least one ship uncovered by a broadside or prow weapons.

[The Glyphstone]

Jseah, thoughts on the scenario I outlined while you were posting?

[jseah]

Jseah, thoughts on the scenario I outlined while you were posting?
Damnit... spoilers! =P

Well, partly. I'll see if I can get a 2nd post in.

[The Glyphstone]

Mwahahaha.

Though you're 540 words behind on Nanowrimo, if i did the math right. Work!

[Fan]

Actually, I kinda like Fan's idea of the RT getting boarded, if we combine it with the 'he can float like a butterfly, sting like a bee, but eventually he'll screw up'. Putting the SC Agent in direct, personal danger, whether it's permanent or not (for all the Culture knows, Chaos can fritz a backup if they have the 'original' in hand) could be the impetus for her to break out the serious skillz and whip the boarding party's collective butt. The RT gets away - maybe throw him a bone by getting in a lucky shot at the Grand Cruiser, and the remainder of the fleet turns to infighting to sort out the new pecking order rather than pursue the injured light cruiser. But she's blown her cover completely at this point, and as usual, hilarity ensues.

Kinda the idea, but I'd also like to see some actual tension with Chaos collecting a piece of culture tech from one of the wrecked ships.

So far it's been "Culture lulz's around and does as it pleases with no consequences.", I'd like to see them get bit a little for handing out this tech so easily, and make actual conflicts begin to occur between them and Chaos, and force the Culture's hand in meeting with the IOM to explain why their planets are getting wiped out, force an acceleration of their plan to isolate the warp from real space (and it's associated consequences), and allow for more than the current.. almost detached approach they're taking.

If only for dramatic tension, so that way at least the eventual outcome isn't so.. obvious.

[The Glyphstone]

Kinda the idea, but I'd also like to see some actual tension with Chaos collecting a piece of culture tech from one of the wrecked ships.

So far it's been "Culture lulz's around and does as it pleases with no consequences.", I'd like to see them get bit a little for handing out this tech so easily, and make actual conflicts begin to occur between them and Chaos, and force the Culture's hand in meeting with the IOM to explain why their planets are getting wiped out.

If only for dramatic tension, so that way at least the eventual outcome isn't so.. obvious.

That's what the disposable mercenaries are for, obviously. The RT isn't the only one who gets boarded, and the mercs don't have SC agents on their bridge.

[Gavinfoxx]

If only for dramatic tension, so that way at least the eventual outcome isn't so.. obvious.

Why shouldn't it be obvious? Massive local superiority of particular capabilities is a major theme of this story, as well as the tensions and issues that this causes. A 'balanced' capability between spaceborn combatants would detract from the premise of the story, and the other themes and tensions that this story brings. While balance is more the case of the typical 40k themes, I like this change in themes, as it brings out other possible story arcs.

Besides, The Culture would just destroy the drive or whatever. Even if it was being teleported away, that process of setting up a teleportation circle takes time. Time where it could be destroyed via effector or failsafe or whatever.

[Fan]

Yeah, but to put it simply, that's kinda boring.

It's just "more of the same", over, and over again. I was one of the first people to state outright that without tech ganking, which the culture is good at preventing, there is no hope for any faction in the 40k Verse short of the Chaos God's themselves taking point, and actual Full C'Tan deciding that Culture Tech doesn't work in the same Star System as Tomb World's anymore.

I'm offering a story solution to a lack of dramatic tension, not a violation of premise, without conflict there really isn't a lot of interesting story to be told, as it is the basis of writing novella in of itself, and here we just have.. none.

There's no emotional conflict due to the Culture's answer so far being to blow up everything that remotely looks dangerous to them, which while logical, isn't exactly given to constructive writing. The story could really benefit from some form of external conflict, say some Idrian remnants float in and try to get back at the culture by using one of the races like the Tau as a puppet, or giving the Orks some advanced techy stuff in the right place.

There's no dramatic tension if you make the outcome obvious, and this is a story, not a versus thread at this point.

The idea at this point is that Golden Goose is busy dealing with corruption from Scrap Code broadcast, and Data Daemons in it's systems, and if the RT having separate control of the systems decides to leave the crippled fleet after the boarding actions, bringing it out of range, then we could see some building conflict.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm sorry, but I think there is more capacity for social, interpersonal, and sociopolitical drama in my scenario. If there is something going on that is a fantastic disruption of the way things have gone, rather than 'more of the same'... with the same being 'rough military equality between forces'.

There doesn't have to be dramatic tension in the fights. There's plenty of that in 40k already.

[Fan]

I'm sorry, but I think there is more capacity for social, interpersonal, and sociopolitical drama in my scenario. If there is something going on that is a fantastic disruption of the way things have gone, rather than 'more of the same'... with the same being 'rough equality between forces'.

Call me when you've taken 3 creative writing courses, and have a 357 page novel under your belt.

You clearly don't understand that I'm not eschewing emotional, or social, or interpersonal challenges but adding the tension of a real and pressing conflict caused by the Culture's own morals, and giving nature combined with the new threat of Chaos that they weren't fully aware of TO those conflicts. Currently, it doesn't matter in the slighest when, or how the Culture does things. There is no challenge. There is no conflict in any sense because the other races opinions DON'T matter, and it's been repeatedly shown that the Culture just ignores them anyways.

They've preformed flawlessly so far, it's about time for a single slip up. Give the other factions a way to help the culture, and through overcoming adversity through unity, give the culture a window of opprotunity to "Advance" the Imperium of Man, and to learn what the Separation of Warp from Reality would do to every thinking being in creation.

[jseah]

I'm behind on nanowrimo because the site won't load and let me update my word count. I think I'm still missing one to two hundred though.

RT continued
Despite Aisha recommending caution, the Rogue Trader decided to take another pass at the Chaos warships. The four cruisers were circling each other in a slow dance that rotated their firing arcs through each other's vulnerable spaces. Amazingly, all the mercenaries went along with his suggestion for another attack.
--- After action note: it seems likely that this increase in aggressiveness and risktaking is due to the Chaos fleet. Some kind of Warp based, psychological attack with ship-to-ship ranges seems a likely explanation, given noted behaviour

During a gap in timing, the Rogue Trader salvoed four broadsides into the keel of the Executor class cruiser, this time at extremely short range to attempt to overcome the massive ship in one pass. The macrocannons of the Lunar and Dauntless battered down the shields and the laser and lance batteries smashed through a good portion of the Chaos warship, destroying a third of the port broadside weapons, disabling port and keel shields, and damaging the engine.

Despite the quick FTL escape before the other ships could rotate their fields of fire, multiple boarding parties were detected on all the ships. The psykers on the ships indicated one Chaospawn was present on the Rogue Trader's ship, the Chaos ships seemed to know which ship was in command.

Aisha Meiro went offline during the period of the Chaospawn attack on the bridge. Effector recordings of the fight indicate a kind of mental influence the Chaospawn inflicted on all the crew as they scrambled for lasguns and even melee weapons against an obviously superior foe. Multiple crewmen were killed by the Daemon effortlessly and yet the remaining crew continued to engage without any apparent fear of death.
Aisha Meiro engaged her implants' capabilities and proceeded to destroy the Chaospawn in hand to hand combat, with Effector field uplinks making impossible mid-air maneuvers and finally disintegrating the body with a plasma torch (finger implant). For a few minutes, the crew continued to fight off the boarders with a slowly decreasing level of bloodlust until all the boarders were killed; after which, there was a large amount of questions and suspicion directed at "the alien". Order was restored by the Rogue Trader who promised to investigate after the battle.

The mercenaries did not fare as well. While the Lunar fought off its boarders with a large number of casualties, including all the bridge crew and command personnel, the Sword frigate was completely destroyed by a number of internal explosions as intense fighting around its power core managed to destabilize and detonate it. Aisha Meiro also (without telling the Rogue Trader) triggered the hyperspace module's self-destruct when it looked like that section might fall, possibly contributing to weakening the reactor's structure.

The Firestorm frigate was taken over by Chaos borders, the bridge fell after a particularly notable last stand by its captain, the bridge crew and Navigator. The Firestorm lowered its shields, opened all its armoured ports and the last transmission by the captain to the Rogue Trader was a request that the Rogue Trader fire upon and destroy his ship, rather than see it be turned over to Chaos.
The Dauntless proceeded to fire continuous broadsides until the Firestorm was destroyed.

At this point, only the Dauntless was spaceworthy after the boarding action concluded, with significant internal and systems damage. The Sword and Firestorm frigates were both destroyed and the Lunar cruiser was un-commanded, had an internal fire at the bridge and its crew was down to almost half strength, with no senior officers, psykers or senior Techpriests surviving.

The Chaos ships now held the advantage, but it appeared that the significant damage to the Executor class had somehow disrupted their command structure. The fleet appeared to lose its cooperation and one shot was fired at the Executor by the Daemonship. Large amounts of comm traffic was passed, some of which managed to pass through the static screen to Golden Goose.
While the codes were undecipherable, the comm traffic was laden with scrapcode and the ensuing minor outbreak actually managed to shut down Golden Goose's long-range effector arrays for a few minutes. This dropped Golden Goose's stealth for that time.

After the appearance of Golden Goose, all four surviving Chaos ships transitioned to Warp independently.
So the Rogue Trader and a half-dead Lunar fall out of it, while only damaging the Chaos fleet. Trading two frigates for two destroyers and damaging the Lunar for damaging the Executor, he probably gave a pretty good showing all-in-all.

So, what sort of questions would he be asking the SC agent now then? There is that thing about the nanobots not supposed to have any plans but somehow able to make hyperspace drives, her bloodlust state meleeing a weak Daemon and winning (and apparently violating a few laws of reality in the meantime, while not being a psyker), and there is that mysterious large ship that appeared quite far away for a few minutes.

While her action was certainly the reason why his ship got off so lightly in the boarding action (the Daemon more or less got on his ship, killed a few people and died), I can't imagine he'd be at all happy.

(I imagine GCUs are possibly about double the size of a Lunar? 10km length perhaps...)


Khorne probably also knows now that the SC agents are "good fighting", although what he's gonna do about that I'm not too sure about.

[jseah]

@Fan:
I imagine we don't really write the same way, I tend towards a more "take me where the conditions go" kind of style. I don't actually plan for much more than one or two updates in advance beyond a skeleton (and that can change).

This is because of the constraints I face here, writing this. I do not understand 40k as much as I would like if I were writing this by myself. I actually would never write this if I couldn't get people to comment and discuss situations, like the fleet battle just now.
EDIT: in fact, the "planned" resolution of this battle and the Rogue Trader's response to the Culture has changed one time every post due to the discussion that happened afterwards. >.>
(the Culture blowing their cover was the only plan I had before I started this round's RT arc)


Nevertheless, this is already a pretty big screw up for the Culture. And containing the fallout here, while possible, would probably mean killing the Rogue Trader. And that would be alot of effort going down the drain.


Now, I admit, that my writing style doesn't show much emotion or tension, this is because of the detached report nature.
I'm not writing this for nanowrimo you know.

[Forum Explorer]

EDIT: I'd also say that there will be a *lot* of safe zones when fighting with tactical FTL. The enemy has no idea what angle of approach you will take. You can be any direction or side of them in a millisecond. The Chaos fleet does not have enough firepower to blanket a 360 degree sphere of space around them with weapon fire.

each ship can cover 270 degrees. So they should be able to form a 360 degree death sphere pretty easily.


Daemonships have no listed restrictions, and is the obvious capital ship of this fleet.

Also RT, and battlefleet Gothic are a bit outdated.

Recently, Imperial Armour: Aeronautica came out, along with the newest "Battlefleet Gothic: Armada".

You're welcome to look there.

Why would you assume the Daemonship is the capital ship? :smallconfused:

I couldn't find the newest version of Battlefleet Gothic: Armada. Or to be more accurate I found one that was from 2003.



Anyways why couldn't they cover each other's rear arcs with 4 ships? One ship correctly positioned can cover the rear arcs of two other ships.

[Fan]

I was just hoping to see some actual conflict spring up, and force the culture's hand in a way that wasn't "self destruct, beep boop."

Guess that's just a different approach. I was looking at this from a point of "This story has a lot of victories being handed to one side, and is causing a loss of dramatic tension. In order for heroes to be "heroes" rather than conquerors they need to be faced with a foe that is greater than themselves. In this case, the only options that present this in a way that is believable is either for the Necrons to adopt Culturetech via the loss of units to isolated time on the Tomb World, or to allow Chaos to intercept a piece of technology through this conflict. Situation A: Requires a significantly larger piece of time, and more noticeable activity, whereas Situation B: Only requires a successful boarding action, and the activation of warp drives to rip multiple holes in the immaterium and some small measure of luck that the captured ship gets drawn in with it before self destruct signals can be issued."

[The Glyphstone]

He might accuse her of being a demon herself - they can take many forms, and often disguise themselves well if occupying a human host and sufficiently powerful. She's obviously not human based on her combat abilities, but not Eldar or any other alien race he recognizes, able to battle and defeat another demon in close combat, and her 'assistance' and 'technology' has not only gotten him persona non grata with the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Ordos Xenos (possibly soon the Ordos Malleus and Hereticus as well) of the Inquisition, and now he's gotten his fleet trashed all to hell. Only a demon, and a powerful one at that, would go to such lengths to arrange his personal ruination and damnation.

At the very least he's going to want to put her into custody while he figures out what he's been sucked into, and depending on how she reacts to that, it could end up with another fight on the bridge and the Navigator having to Eyeball her to death. Depending on how quickly he bolts from the scene of the battle and how much effort the Culture is willing to put into tracking him down afterwards, he might be able to sink into the background for a time with his stolen Culturetech and half-wrecked ship. If the tech-priests have, on the side, figured out a crude means of suborning the lockout on the nanoconstructors, he could disappear from the narrative for a bit only to come back later in better shape.

On the other hand, if she doesn't fight him and finds some way to convince him of her bona fides after breaking cover so spectacularly, you can go with your original plan...that might still end in Horrible Navigator Warp Eye Death, but them's the breaks.

[jseah]

You may also note that the very first post, the one I made for the first three weeks, was actually part of an argument about how the Culture would find the IoM before Chaos corruption could become a problem.

A large part of this writing IS a comparision of Culture responses and handling of various situations, and how despite their high technology and safeguards, they can still screw up. But that screwing up in ways that result in a galaxy-wide war is not only quite difficult due to their tech-locking and safeguards, it also results in a boring "everyone dies" situation.

I mean, look at it this way. None of the races save the Tau can adopt technology fast enough to make a difference in combating Chaos as they are now. Attempting to force it would only result in the IoM collapsing.
And the Tau can't/won't adopt Culturetech fast enough to make a difference against a post-singularity Chaos.

It results in novabombs applied everywhere. And then some. The Culture can survive perfectly fine without stars. Without anything at all actually. It's everyone dies to the highest power, there won't BE time to pave the galaxy over with Necron null-fields, the tech for which the Culture might not even get.

No, the challenge here, is not whether the Culture wins. They can, since Chaos doesn't act fast enough to corrupt them before they run over the IoM and they can correct for Chaos contamination via reload. Apart from losing a ship in the Warp, which they won't since the Culture are careful (seriously, they consider 1 in 83 million chance of death by displacement to be "risky" and prefer to use a rocket), there is about no way for tech to transfer short of getting something caught in a stasis like trap...

Like the Necrons did. They have a drone remember?

The challenge is whether the Culture can navigate the all-too-many pitfalls and reach an ending where it is "peace and light"... without violating too many of their morals.

So far though? They're probably only marginally closer to that goal than when they started.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think he'd probably consider her a Xeno rather than a Daemon. Maybe something to do with some kind of Eldar plot, or -- more likely -- one of the minor Xeno empires that he may have heard of; several of them are known for having weird tech, and he might assume that she is a converted human from one of these tiny groups. There are several of them that are known for having 'very advanced tech', and it is fairly likely that a Rogue Trader would find some of these.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Sentient_Species
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Category:Minor_Alien_Species_and_Factions

Precisely which minor species a Rogue Trader might assume she is with... well, that would require someone more familiar with canon than me to make a stab at.

[jseah]

Anyways why couldn't they cover each other's rear arcs with 4 ships? One ship correctly positioned can cover the rear arcs of two other ships.
It's 3D you know. You have to cover the ships' keel and mast regions too.

EDIT:
There's also geometry to worry about. Your aft region points away from the other ships' if you place yourself behind them to cover their regions.

[Gavinfoxx]

You know what would be reaallly interesting? If the RT knew enough xenos lore to tell The Culture Agent something like:

"You fight like an Eldar Harlequin. But I see no Flip-Belt. How do you do what you do?! Who, and what, are you?"

That would be verrryyy interesting, since the Eldar probably haven't told The Culture about Harlequins...

[The Glyphstone]

It's 3D you know. You have to cover the ships' keel and mast regions too.

EDIT:
There's also geometry to worry about. Your aft region points away from the other ships' if you place yourself behind them to cover their regions.

And the problem that none of the captains are going to want to voluntarily leave the other ships to cover their vulnerable rear arcs, because that means by necessity being able to fire into their rear arcs - or at them. So the formation is going to suffer some attritional inefficiency from mutual distrust, as they use the other ships to protect themselves while trying not to leave themselves open to 'stray shots', trying to stay in a place where they might get a chance at a 'stray shot', and all the while trying to keep anyone else from noticing what they're doing. It's a lot to manage, even if there wasn't a genuine enemy to fight.

[Forum Explorer]

It's 3D you know. You have to cover the ships' keel and mast regions too.

EDIT:
There's also geometry to worry about. Your aft region points away from the other ships' if you place yourself behind them to cover their regions.

It's an over simplification on the fleet rules but it basically sums it up as "assume they've got coverage above and below at no loss of effectiveness."

The geometry I'm not going to bother working out.


Anyways for fun I decided to look up the optimal strength, according to Battlefleet Gothic, each ship could bring onto one enemy ship for each side.

Lunar: 6+2 lance
Dauntless: 4
Sword: 4
Firestorm: 2+1 lance



Hades: 10+2 lance
Carnage: 16
Iconoclast x2: 3X2
Executor: 6 lance

This is what I got. Iconoclast's are very much expendable (and easy to kill) and I didn't even include the Daemonship! (Since it's an upgrade and I don't know which ship type has it.) The Carnage also outranges everything else, (but not it's full strength does.)

The Sword and Firestorm are about as durable as the Iconoclasts.

[Gavinfoxx]

By the Rogue Trader rules...
Lunar: 1 Prow (probably a lance), 2 Port, 2 Starboard (any of those can be a lance, but probably only one on each side is, at most)

Dauntless: 1 prow (probably a lance), 1 port, 1 starboard

Sword: 2 Dorsal, no lances
Firestorm: 1 Dorsal, 1 prow (a lance)

Iconoclast: 2 dorsal, no lances

[Gavinfoxx]

If I was the Rogue Trader, and realized that this person had access to Archeotech things... I would demand that they make me a fleet full of archeotech stuff. After all, my constraint on the number of ships is primarily 'crew I can trust'. The way to maximize firepower -- and the capabilities of this drive -- is to maximize automation in a ship, and targeting capacity, and range of a ship.

The best way to do this is probably to make a facility for making extremely high end servitors for crewing ships, and then to manufacture a bunch of ships that are at the extreme end for automation, and then crew them all with the loyal few people who have a stake in his dynasty and are from his ship. If he doesn't use ANY non-Imperial tech, and just focuses on archeotech as his way of doing things, he can maximize extreme range firepower with the resources he has, given his primary constraint (loyal crew), with no constraint of 'any non proscribed imperial tech' or 'any archeotech' or 'cost'. Of course he would need a 'tender' ship (probably of Cruiser or Heavy Cruiser size, probably one of the larger transports, filled with repair and resupply and manufactorum and such), for purposes of plasma and organics and refining and repair and such... because, if smart, he would assume that this work with The Culture thing won't last forever, and their nanobots likewise probably won't last forever, either, cause this will inevitably implode. So he wants stuff that can be repaired at Imperial space, in Forge Worlds... or stuff he can repair, himself...

Here's how I would do the highly-automated ships, using Rogue Trader RPG rules... this would be a glass cannon with an absurd amount of archeotech-equivalent stuff, but with the capability of FTL to not, you know, be targeted, and the capacity for archeotech shields... well, they are a bit more durable than they would otherwise be expected to be! and note, 'past histories' show just the equivalent capabilities from the books. Unless otherwise specified, everything is in the Core Rogue Trader RPG book. Good and Best quality stuff is from Battlefleet Koronus. This sort of destroyer would give extreme range and automation and targeting capabilities with VERY VERY long range laser weaponry. This amount of automation would be near-heretical... but not quite heretical. Of course this amount of archeotech, and all of them being identical... would be very, very, very odd... but again, a bunch of these should be able to zap damn near anything, and he could fabricate a story where he came across a cache of these in some weird time stasis at some lost orbital spaceyard of archeotech or something. Further, if there is any non-mechanicum ship that is most likely to have the facilities to do realspace ftl targeting or navigating or auguring or whatever, it would be this.

Unfortunately, in order to make a ship 'like this', which follows Imperial patterns closely The Culture would need to scan the one-off examples of the Archeotech bits (which, by definition, aren't in the databases as designs, except as perhaps measurements and recordings and photos of what this lost tech or whatnot can do; otherwise, anything they make would seem to be xenostech rather than archeotech), and they would have to put together the pieces from disparate examples of various sorts of scanned ships... because there likely ISN'T a ship with all of these components.

It might be reasonable to note that the Staravar Laser Macrobattery might be an X-Ray laser... or some other type of laser that isn't in common Imperial use...




-Hull: Meritech Shrike Raider (Source: Battlefleet Koronus)
-Machine Spirit Oddities: Martial Hubris
-Past Histories: Wrested from a Space Hulk
-Plasma Drive: Lathe 2b Escort Drive. Modified Drive (Archeotech), Best Quality (Source: Into the Storm)
-Warp Engine: Miloslav G-616.b warp engine. Best Quality. (Source: Battlefleet Koronus)
-Gellar Field: Warpsbane Hull
-Void Shields: Castellan Shield (Archeotech), Good Quality: Power
-Bridge: Bridge of Antiquity (Archeotech)
-Life Sustainer: Ancient Life Sustainer, Good Quality: Power (Archeotech)
-Crew Quarters: Bilge Rat Quarters, Good Quality: Space (Source: Battlefleet Koronus)
-Augur Arrays: Auto-Stabilized Logis-Targeter, Good Quality: Power (Archeotech)
-Dorsal Weapon: Staravar Laser Macrobattery (Archeotech), Best Quality: Range, Space (Source: Into the Storm)
-Prow Weapon: Sunhammer Lance (or Archeotech equivalent), Best Quality: Range, Space (Source: Into the Storm)
-Supplemental: Cogitator Interlink (Archeotech), (Source: Into the Storm)
-Upgrade: Best Quality Servitor Crew (Source: Into the Storm)
-Upgrade: Best Quality Turbo-Weapon Battery (Source: Into the Storm)
-Upgrade: Best Quality Targeting Matrix (Source: Tools of the Trade)
-Upgrade: Best Quality Overload Shield Capacitors (Source: Tools of the Trade)
-Upgrade: Best Quality Arrester Engines (Source: Tools of the Trade)
-Upgrade: Best Quality Superior Damage Control (Source: Tools of the Trade)



In another topic, Jseah, how much have you read this (fanon) page?

http://www.philipsibbering.com/wh40k/00-concepts-index.shtml

It has a lot of not-canonical-but-doesn't-contradict-canon stuff about the 40k verse that might be interesting...

Edit: okay, there is a TON of stuff that conflicts with canon... *sighs*

[jseah]

If I was the Rogue Trader, and realized that this person had access to Archeotech things... I would demand that they make me a fleet full of archeotech stuff.
The nanobots might be archeotech, but the hyperspace drive certainly isn't.

Although I would say it's quite likely he has figured out that some xeno ship with good stealth and hyperspace drives has taken an interest in him and decided to give him tech to bribe him for their own reasons.

The reaction to that?

[Forum Explorer]

That's if you were the Rogue Trader. I guess it's important to note that most people do not play their character as an individual raised in the Imperium. He'd likely trust the familiar over strange and new as well as normal humans over machines.


(Profit off strange and new yes. Trust it, no.)

[Gavinfoxx]

How is he likely to react? Anger, aggression, suspicion, demands that his contact come clean, attempts to make it seem like he knows more than he actually does, signals to the other ship, etc.

Also, lots of demands of both the agent and the ship... RT's don't like being pawns or not in control of their destiny, but they also tend to be shrewd negotiators.

[jseah]

How is he likely to react? Anger, aggression, suspicion, demands that his contact come clean, attempts to make it seem like he knows more than he actually does, signals to the other ship, etc.
And when they do? Explain what the Culture is, and what its trying to do (get him to be their arm to fight Chaos), I mean?

EDIT: I'm not asking you to write the next part for me. I mean, it'll be nice, but suggestions are good enough. =D

[The Glyphstone]

He's definitely going to want some proof she's not a lying demon in disguise, at least, though that'll be satisfied easily enough by holding a blessed object of some kind, or dipping her hand in holy water, etc

[Gavinfoxx]

And when they do? Explain what the Culture is, and what its trying to do (get him to be their arm to fight Chaos), I mean?

EDIT: I'm not asking you to write the next part for me. I mean, it'll be nice, but suggestions are good enough. =D

He will want to be dominant in the negotiations, for sure. He might even want their unconditional surrender... though he likely knows he can't get away with that. He'll likely want to maneuver them into a position where he can dictate terms, even if only years down the line, likely using their ignorance of history and of patterns of the imperium against them. Mostly, he will want to maintain the sovereignty of his Dynasty.

[Selrahc]

It's worth pointing out again that Rogue Traders are an incredibly diverse group. You need to create the character of the Rogue Trader a little more. Is he somebody who worked their way up from the gutter, with the warrant as their crowning glory? Somebody who failed on a grand scale and took the Warrant as a sort of exile? Part of an ancient dynasty of Rogue Traders? Is he a xenophile? A man motivated by honour? Legacy? Or is it all about the lucre?

There is no standard set of reactions for Rogue Traders, except to the extent that there is a commonality of all humanity.

[jseah]

part 6.5 RT - Fallout
The Rogue Trader, having stabilized the situation on both ships, has taken the chance to assume command over the Lunar. The crew of the Lunar were not happy at the change but none of them were commanding officers and there was no contest to the small, but heavily armed, cadre with a backup Navigator the Rogue Trader sent over to take command.

Explanations were demanded from Aisha for her superhuman combat performance. It appears that the Rogue Trader has noticed that the nanobots that were supposedly not able to build hyperspace drives could do so. He demanded to know her connection to the Golden Goose, whose stealth had dropped for a few minutes, and what she was attempting to bribe him with.

He demanded that Aisha subject herself to a test of her not being a daemon in disguise. This test involved showering her with a bowl of "holy water", which chemical analysis showed to be mostly water with some non-poisonous trace chemicals. Aisha agreed and nothing unexpected happened. This seemed to satisfy the crew and the Rogue Trader.

Golden Goose made a decision to tell him about the the GCU and Aisha's connection to the Culture and the intended plan for him to be the first trial to recruit a militant arm of the Culture from the IoM to fight Chaos.
A basic introduction of the Culture, our government style and notes on Chaos, was given. We did not mention or hint at our interest in reforming the IoM, only mentioning that we were willing to look and recruit allies to fight against Chaos wherever they could be found. There was no mention of the Culture's penetration into IoM space.
Mention of our hyperspace and nanobot construction provoked some suspicion about "xenotech". We did not mention Displacers or Effectors or the use of non-organic intelligences.

As previously agreed, we turned over control of the nanobots to the Rogue Trader. This was confirmed by him holding Aisha on a yatch without communications and using them to manufacture a lasgun. Nevertheless, he still remains suspicious of them.
In an attempt to mollify him, we also gave him construction plans for ammunition and IoM starship weaponry reverse engineered from scans of the Forge Worlds.

We requested that we sent a proper ambassador to negotiate with him but this was denied.
I think even a daemonic creature might have been a bit much for an SC agent, even with a GCU effector to back her up. I'm downgrading it to a Chaos Spawn. That one is still dangerous but certainly possible for her to kill.
There is also that while the storm in the warp is there, it isn't in realspace, so Daemons might be a bit hard to justify, what with Gellar Fields operating on the ship (they are fighting Chaos after all, so even if its a fight in real space, it would be an obvious move to turn them on) and so on.


Also, does the RT know how to make holy water? At least the type that would be expected to burn daemons. The Culture are interested in it for obvious reasons.

Next post in 1 hour, regardless of any replies or not, I need to start sleeping earlier now.


Ok, since he's displayed suspicion (and Aisha would not have missed it) it is unlikely the Culture would reveal the full extent of its power and plans for the IoM. Or at least, not yet.
So far, they have just told him they want someone to whack Chaos for them.

After all, you don't actually need to tell him to take the IoM over, he is probably greedy enough to attempt to get significant holdings once he has the strength to, if only to serve as a backup in case the nanobots fail.

And even if he doesn't make a bid for the IoM directly, a bubble faction that is closely related, and definitely more friendly to the Culture (or at least bribeable) would be a useful thing to have. Not to mention that if he expands, he'll have to fight Chaos eventually anyway.

[jseah]

It's worth pointing out again that Rogue Traders are an incredibly diverse group. You need to create the character of the Rogue Trader a little more. Is he somebody who worked their way up from the gutter, with the warrant as their crowning glory? Somebody who failed on a grand scale and took the Warrant as a sort of exile? Part of an ancient dynasty of Rogue Traders? Is he a xenophile? A man motivated by honour? Legacy? Or is it all about the lucre?

There is no standard set of reactions for Rogue Traders, except to the extent that there is a commonality of all humanity.
Fair enough. Hmm....

Having him sign on with the Culture completely would be a boring way to end this. So let's have his history be something like this:

A man who was once some mildly experienced but okay-ish cruiser captain who stepped on the toes of someone higher up, let's say the Eccelesiarchy. One independent command mission, he had to deal with a xenos situation and didn't blow them out of space, instead negotiating, and they had the excuse to get rid of him.

Due to politics, he couldn't be bumped off quietly, so the politico decided to exile him by offering him the Warrant of Trade.
(I read on Lexicanum that it would be suicide to refuse, even for pretty well-to-do nobles - I admit, this is mostly the reason why it's like this, I just wanted to use this =P)


So what that means for his character:

He's probably pretty loyal to the IoM since he was a fleet officer. This also explains his fast (for IoM) appreciation of the tactics afforded by the hyperdrive.

He probably has a few friends and an enemy who are still keeping tabs on what he's up to.

He's not too adverse to dealing with xenos, not quite toeing the party line of "burn Xeno!" but still suspicious. (had to be at least this accepting of xenos or he wouldn't take the hyperdrive at all)

He probably has a personal dislike for politics, but is proficient at negotiation, which certainly helps him be a successful RT.

----------------

Someone can name him if you want. =D

[Forum Explorer]

did we miss 6.4 or did you just skip over it?


Holy water needs a holy man to bless it. That's all there is to it really. Or dipping a holy artifact in water would do as well.

[Gavinfoxx]

Making Holy Watter requires actual blessings from, you know... priests. The type that burns daemons, as well as lots of other items of faith that work, are basically capital-M Miracles. If they can get historic video of (say), Sisters of Battle fighting, they can see regular examples of Miracles of faith. And there is also lots of archival footage of Real Miracles (up to and including resurrecting people) in the various databases they have, even outside of the Sisters of Battle.

Yes, this is a setting in which Miracles and Faith work, and no one knows the mechanism, and it is dramatically different than standard Warp-reality-changing or Psyker stuff...

A concerted effort by the culture to examine databases and recordings and measurements of sanctified things and Miracles would probably let them figure out that yes, they are real and measurable, no, they don't seem to interact with the warp in similar patterns as other methods, and that they are somewhat difficult to replicate (it requires a certain level of faith), though there are a large number of notable patterns in the type of miracles and the sorts of societies and sorts of beliefs that can bring them about. Sort of a, 'yes, this stuff is real, but it requires structuring of a society and individuals to be a certain way to bring it about, and we can't really structure our society to do this with any regularity. At the very least, we can classify and quantify this sort of thing, so we know what to do and how to act when we encounter it, and educate our more faithful, religious, and ritually-inclined citizens that it is possible and real in this galaxy, and offer them resources to maybe try and do these sorts of miracles if they are interested, of course within the structure of their particular faith. One thing that is very obvious is that aping the Imperial Faith's methods of doing this will not work in our case.'

[jseah]

Yes, this is a setting in which Miracles and Faith work, and no one knows the mechanism, and it is dramatically different than standard Warp-reality-changing or Psyker stuff...
=(

I passed over reading Sisters of Battle as I thought it was just another IoM war army thing for IoM women.


did we miss 6.4 or did you just skip over it?
No, I don't see anything missing? Is there some sort of gap?

The Chaos ships were all gone and the fight was over as of the end of yesterday's update.

[Gavinfoxx]

But yea, Priests, Sisters, Clerics, Missionaries, Saints... there is a ton of stuff in the Ecclesiarchy that does Actual Miracles. Yes, there is a ton of stuff that is passing off something else as Actual Miracles, but that doesn't mean that Miracles of Faith don't exist in this setting; they most certainly do.

Also, I, of course, edited the post just above yours...

Sorry for giving you a bunch more reading to do! ;)

[The Glyphstone]

=(

I passed over reading Sisters of Battle as I thought it was just another IoM war army thing for IoM women.


No, I don't see anything missing? Is there some sort of gap?

The Chaos ships were all gone and the fight was over as of the end of yesterday's update.

The Sisters are specifically the military arm of the Ecclesiarchy, the Imperium's priesthood (there are female Imperial Guard troopers, but those are different). SoBs are famed for their utter fanaticism and devotion to the Imperium, to the point where their faith can literally cause supernatural events to occur, Miracles of Faith.

This sort of thing also happens at smaller scales...that holy water,for instance, was simply water with trace chemicals. But if it had been splashed on a daemonic entity, it would have burned like potent acid, because it had been blessed by a priest who believed.

[Forum Explorer]

=(

I passed over reading Sisters of Battle as I thought it was just another IoM war army thing for IoM women.


No, I don't see anything missing? Is there some sort of gap?

The Chaos ships were all gone and the fight was over as of the end of yesterday's update.

Sister of Battle are actually really cool.

As far as I can tell the RT had just destroyed the two Iconoclasts and was getting cocky and was beginning riskier tactics.

[Gavinfoxx]

And note that there are plenty of non military Miracles that happen from the Ecclesiarchy; the SoB is just the group that invokes most of the militarily-relevant miracles.

[jseah]

=( Do we have a reference for their miracles? Lexicanum doesn't state it.

Should I dig out the computer game again? I don't recall them having miracles in it, but then I just shelled them from crazy range with Earthshakers. =D


Also, you might have missed post #221 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14168960&postcount=221).