Running a godless campaign

[ABEW19043]

Long story short, I've written the next long term campaign for my group, and one of the major things is that it is godless.

Basic background explanation:
Around 130 years prior, a war finally erupted between the ranks of men and some of the gods. The gods fighting, greatly underestimating the mortals, didn't really try to get the other deities to help in their fight. Therefore, due to her meddling in the world, Tiamat ended up being slain, permanently. (After a long battle between her armies and subjects and those of the godless, it was her versus a party of 5. Said party plays a HUGE role later on in campaign.) After Tiamat's death, a certain member of the party ( The OP Wizard, who for all intents and purposes was by this point level 27) went on to hunt the gods and single handedly slay Kruul.

Skipping a lot of fluff and unnecessary things, the gods have now all fallen into exile (Except, obviously, for the two dead ones) for some reason or another (Though the more powerful gods [ Heironeous, Hextor, Pelor, etc.] still attempt to play roles in the world).

So, the entire party is more or less required to be godless, unless they wish to be ridiculed by all of society and have unanswered calls.



And here is the question: I've thought a lot about how to run this and have a decent idea, but does anyone have any other thoughts on how to run a godless campaign?

[Mari01]

Long story short, I've written the next long term campaign for my group, and one of the major things is that it is godless.

Basic background explanation:
Around 130 years prior, a war finally erupted between the ranks of men and some of the gods. The gods fighting, greatly underestimating the mortals, didn't really try to get the other deities to help in their fight. Therefore, due to her meddling in the world, Tiamat ended up being slain, permanently. (After a long battle between her armies and subjects and those of the godless, it was her versus a party of 5. Said party plays a HUGE role later on in campaign.) After Tiamat's death, a certain member of the party ( The OP Wizard, who for all intents and purposes was by this point level 27) went on to hunt the gods and single handedly slay Kruul.

Skipping a lot of fluff and unnecessary things, the gods have now all fallen into exile (Except, obviously, for the two dead ones) for some reason or another (Though the more powerful gods [ Heironeous, Hextor, Pelor, etc.] still attempt to play roles in the world).

So, the entire party is more or less required to be godless, unless they wish to be ridiculed by all of society and have unanswered calls.



And here is the question: I've thought a lot about how to run this and have a decent idea, but does anyone have any other thoughts on how to run a godless campaign?

Same as any other? Divine casters either don't exist, or everyone get's their powers from a cause. Or, perfect excuse to use binders and psionics.

[Mithril Leaf]

Remember that Elder Evils has some godless stuff. Pretty cool actually.

[Crinias]

Gods feature a big part of D&D, in many ways. How does it affect society to lose a big source of power and probably comfort among good-aligned communities? What brings comfort to everyday peasants, who before could occasionally rely on the champions of the gods? Are people more susceptible to the forces of evil, since there are few who would preach the power and philosophy of good gods?

Since the prayer of gods is banned in society, it would probably be treated as a cult activity of sorts. This can have all sorts of effects on society. Perhaps demonic or diabolic cults gain more power as a result, or perhaps they are viewed in a similar way.

As said by Mari01, Binders and Psionics may obtain more screentime. Nontraditional forms of magic may start to become mainstream.

Also, I bet evil dragons everywhere are pissed off, that could lead to interesting possibilities...

[roguemetal]

Considering all of this happened as you were running the campaign, I would suggest considering the time difference between the two. If this is recent, the people of the world may in fact be in a panic, looking for vengeance, or otherwise feeling godless and invincible. As time progresses certain powerful peoples will seek to gain control of the situation, either by insisting the gods still exist and are simply testing the people, or that they in fact are more akin to gods than the gods themselves. Of course this is going to lead to huge religious conflicts, and almost for certain some of the truly powerful characters of the world will be suckered into becoming 'gods' in name, or otherwise assuming command of the situation to help. but even good intentions will lead them to becoming targets of religious persecution. I expect these 'gods' or whatever title they appoint themselves, will equally fall into conflict with the Dragons, which equally vie for worship. Also, depending on the nature of your current governments, there may be some serious crackdowns on believers, while believers may subsequently open their eyes to the lack of power surrounding any theocracies or otherwise religiously influenced organizations (like the required blessing of the pope to become king) and seek new ways to establish their presence. As mentioned above, psionics and arcane are equally good for this last purpose.

[Telonius]

As far as healing goes, you still have Druids and (to a lesser extent) Bards.

I think Necromancers just got a lot more powerful.

[DarkestKnight]

Does this mean that any high level cleric is assumed to take levels of Ur-Priest?

Also if divine casters are greatly reduced or non-existent what does this do to the magic item market? A lot of potions and other items may not be as available as before.

[Clistenes]

Well, there would still be Druids, Paladins, Rangers, Oriental Shamans, Shugenjas, Spirit Shamans, Green Ronin's Shamans and Moongoose Publishing's Shamans, Dragonlance Mystics and Al-Qadim's Kahinas, so people would lack neither divine magic nor spirituality; they would just have to adapt their mindsets.

Bards and Witches could provide healing magic too.

[Fable Wright]

Since the prayer of gods is banned in society, it would probably be treated as a cult activity of sorts. This can have all sorts of effects on society. Perhaps demonic or diabolic cults gain more power as a result, or perhaps they are viewed in a similar way.


I find this amusing. Cults of Pelor, Heironius, and those gods would exist along beside cults of Nerull and Vecna. And for once, they would have some goals in common: Freeing the gods.

Demonic Cults, I think, would become pretty popular. I remember that there was a prestige class in Fiend Folio, Fiend of Blasphemy, that allowed Devils to grant Divine Spells to worshippers. Given that clerics provide a useful role to society, I could see cults of demon-worshippers actually gaining the kind of status that Evil churches get in the D&D universe, without good churches as a counterbalance. Seditious Paladins and Greyguards in the Cult of Pelor would be trying to destabilize demonic Churches. Interestingly enough, you could have Aasimar Warlocks that undergo the Ritual of Alignment (which demonic forces would be rather happy to give to Celestially associated beings, I think) that then qualify for the Fiend of Blasphemy class, without becoming Evil, allowing for a few small cults of (8+ level, given the persecution they face) Good aligned Clerics. That are led by Hellfire Glaivelocks.

[DarkestKnight]

But couldn't Archons and Co do the same thing and form their own cults? Aren't there the Archon lords in BoED? I'll admit a goodly cult isn't as straight forward as an evil demon cult, but it could still be likely.

[Fable Wright]

But couldn't Archons and Co do the same thing and form their own cults? Aren't there the Archon lords in BoED? I'll admit a goodly cult isn't as straight forward as an evil demon cult, but it could still be likely.

The problem is that Fiend of Blasphemy, the only RAW way to grant spells to clerics that aren't devoted to a cause, requires the [Evil] subtype. No creature with the [Good] subtype would ever do that. However, a Chaotic Good Warlock Aasimar? He probably could/would.

And, as a sidenote, if you allow Clerics of causes, just about nothing changes, as the Divine power from clerics keeps flowing, and churches would just be based around ideals rather than Gods.

[roguemetal]

And, as a sidenote, if you allow Clerics of causes, just about nothing changes, as the Divine power from clerics keeps flowing, and churches would just be based around ideals rather than Gods.

This is true. So long as the Domains continue to exist, the Gods need not be intermediaries.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, there is no change, or if there arbitrarily is a change (no clerics!), there are 20 divine classes that can pick up the slack?

[Fable Wright]

Yea, there is no change, or if there arbitrarily is a change (no clerics!), there are 20 divine classes that can pick up the slack?

The problem is that Clerics and (to a lesser extent) Favored Souls are the only ones who tend to gather into groups and work with other people. Without them, you've got a few archivists (basically Wizards with divine casting, none too helpful or plentiful), Druids (not known for going into towns and helping on a massive level), Spirit Shamans (as Druids), (Divine) Bards (They don't tend to bunker down in one place and do good), and a few half-caster classes. Without Clerics and their Churches, the amount of healing, buffs, and things like Remove Curse are much harder to get access to, as the people who gather in groups in well-known, public locations that have a vested interest in the common good have suddenly all gone away. While there are plenty of Divine classes, Clerics are the only ones who congregate en mass. Their loss actually does change the setting quite a bit.

[Gavinfoxx]

...Mystics?

"Druids, Paladins, Oriental Shamans, Shugenjas, Spirit Shamans, Green Ronin's Shamans and Moongoose Publishing's Shamans, Dragonlance Mystics and Al-Qadim's Kahinas"

I'd also add Rangers and Mystic Rangers...

[Clistenes]

The problem is that Clerics and (to a lesser extent) Favored Souls are the only ones who tend to gather into groups and work with other people. Without them, you've got a few archivists (basically Wizards with divine casting, none too helpful or plentiful), Druids (not known for going into towns and helping on a massive level), Spirit Shamans (as Druids), (Divine) Bards (They don't tend to bunker down in one place and do good), and a few half-caster classes. Without Clerics and their Churches, the amount of healing, buffs, and things like Remove Curse are much harder to get access to, as the people who gather in groups in well-known, public locations that have a vested interest in the common good have suddenly all gone away. While there are plenty of Divine classes, Clerics are the only ones who congregate en mass. Their loss actually does change the setting quite a bit.

Shugenjas form orders and schools, and unlike clerics they focus more on the society they are taking care of than the gods or spirits they worship.

Paladins form orders too, have semi-decent healing/curative skills and are strongly focused around good, morality and law, so they could work as moral compass for society in the abscence of clerics.

Dragonlance Mystics were originally created from depowered priests who wanted to keep taking care of their people even without the blessing of their gods.

Oriental Shamans act as a sort of pastors for their community; they are 100% focused on their community.

The same can be said about Kahinas. They have an almost druid-like attitude towards nature, but their main function is to act as wise women and local priestess for peasant communities.

Spirit Shamans and the other Shamans (Moongose Publishing and Green Ronin) are more detached from the community, but they also serve it.

I would say that Shugenjas and Paladins could take the role of priesthoods in urban eviroments, while Oriental Shamans and Kahina would step and take care of villages and hamlets. Mystics are more difficult to figure, since they are largely a Dragonlance thing.

The change would take some time, but people would adapt.

[ABEW19043]

Gods feature a big part of D&D, in many ways. How does it affect society to lose a big source of power and probably comfort among good-aligned communities? What brings comfort to everyday peasants, who before could occasionally rely on the champions of the gods? Are people more susceptible to the forces of evil, since there are few who would preach the power and philosophy of good gods?

Since the prayer of gods is banned in society, it would probably be treated as a cult activity of sorts. This can have all sorts of effects on society. Perhaps demonic or diabolic cults gain more power as a result, or perhaps they are viewed in a similar way.

As said by Mari01, Binders and Psionics may obtain more screentime. Nontraditional forms of magic may start to become mainstream.

Also, I bet evil dragons everywhere are pissed off, that could lead to interesting possibilities...

Thank you, and this is near exactly the kind of things I was looking before. I have thought about the cults, but I never thought about people being more susceptible or the common peasants part in this.


Considering all of this happened as you were running the campaign, I would suggest considering the time difference between the two. If this is recent, the people of the world may in fact be in a panic, looking for vengeance, or otherwise feeling godless and invincible. As time progresses certain powerful peoples will seek to gain control of the situation, either by insisting the gods still exist and are simply testing the people, or that they in fact are more akin to gods than the gods themselves. Of course this is going to lead to huge religious conflicts, and almost for certain some of the truly powerful characters of the world will be suckered into becoming 'gods' in name, or otherwise assuming command of the situation to help. but even good intentions will lead them to becoming targets of religious persecution. I expect these 'gods' or whatever title they appoint themselves, will equally fall into conflict with the Dragons, which equally vie for worship. Also, depending on the nature of your current governments, there may be some serious crackdowns on believers, while believers may subsequently open their eyes to the lack of power surrounding any theocracies or otherwise religiously influenced organizations (like the required blessing of the pope to become king) and seek new ways to establish their presence. As mentioned above, psionics and arcane are equally good for this last purpose.

My government is... Complicated. It's a Senate system where many different groups are recognized and with each major senate group (The Paladins, The druids, etc. (Yes, even the druids. Many of the classes, races, or groups don't want to have to deal with the senate, but they do simply because they know it's a worldwide government and the only way to further their cause)) has it's own leader and body. It's much deeper than that and something I'm quite proud of (Spent a LOT of time and even handmade dozens of individual major senators) but that's the base consensus.

Also, for the record, good and evil have to deal with each other in the Senate, at the risk of starting wars and sacrificing billions of innocent citizens (It's a HUGE and very densely populated world), so the Highest most anal Paladin will have to deal with the most twisted chaotic evil Rogue.