[PF] Bluffing Mystic Theurge?

[Zahhak]

May have misspelled that last word.

So, in the current campaign my group is working through I'm playing a wizard, and we have no cleric. I said that when we level up next I'll cross class into cleric and build towards being a mystic theurge so that I can fill in the role better. There's some backstory here, but my character is planning on being a cult leader in a few levels, so being able to bluff like a madman is kind of important, and so is having good leadership abilities. But this puts me in the weird position of needing high ranks in intelligence, wisdom, and charisma. Two major stats I can deal with, three is too much.

So, is there some way that I can cut this down, such as a feat that lets me cast divine spells with charisma or intelligence rather then wisdom, or cast arcane spells with charisma or wisdom rather then intelligence? For some reason casting divine with charisma seems to make the most sense, but I don't know if there's a rule out there for that.

Now, before I get a stream of "play a bleeding sorcerer!" Because of the way our campaign story has been set up and the way we've gaming, a wizard is a better option then a sorcerer.

Thanks in advance.

[papr_weezl8472]

There's the Archivist from Heroes of Horror. It's basically a divine wizard; it uses Int for casting, and casts spells from a 'prayerbook'. Its amount of spells known are like a wizard's, so it does best if you are able to buy/loot divine scrolls or the like fairly often.

[Edge of Dreams]

Favored Soul (not sure what book it's in) is a Cha-based divine caster, I think (or can be reflavored to be Cha-only). It's basically what Sorcerer is to Wizard - spontaneous casting instead of prepared, but otherwise very similar to the Cleric.

[Zahhak]

There's the Archivist from Heroes of Horror. It's basically a divine wizard; it uses Int for casting, and casts spells from a 'prayerbook'. Its amount of spells known are like a wizard's, so it does best if you are able to buy/loot divine scrolls or the like fairly often.

Favored Soul (not sure what book it's in) is a Cha-based divine caster, I think (or can be reflavored to be Cha-only). It's basically what Sorcerer is to Wizard - spontaneous casting instead of prepared, but otherwise very similar to the Cleric.

Thanks guys. Favored Soul is in Complete Divine, at least. I completely forgot about Favored Soul, since it clears up my problem pretty quickly.

[grarrrg]

Thanks guys. Favored Soul is in Complete Divine, at least. I completely forgot about Favored Soul, since it clears up my problem pretty quickly.

oracle maybe?

Or there's the Razmiran Priest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/razmiran-priest) PrC, which is Arcane Based Pseudo-"Cleric"

[Zahhak]

The main issue is needing to be able to cast healing magic.

[grarrrg]

The main issue is needing to be able to cast healing magic.

Duh, silly me, I kept thinking "he's a Wizard that is going to Multi-class", when I should have been thinking "is there something OTHER than Wizard that would do this better"?

And there is.
Hedge Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/hedge-witch) Archetype for the Witch.
Witches are INT based Prepared casters, they are VERY similar in Wizards in basic set-up (can learn whole list of spells for starters).

The Hedge Witch archetype gives you the "Spontaneous Cure Spell" ability that Clerics have. So you can prepare your normal selection of Wizardly goodness, and, as needed, convert your spells into Cures on the fly.

Witches also have a good selection of other 'healing' type spells on their list (they do miss out on some good Wiz/Sorc spells, but they keep plenty enough that it won't be missed).

Go Witch, Single-class, no loss of Caster Level, no multi-Stat dependency.

[Zahhak]

My DM agreed to let me rearrange some of my stats, but not change base class. And we also need a nuker (what I am right now). I suppose the question could have been worded: How do I make a healing nuker who can bluff and lead well?

[Blyte]

perhaps change your race to samsaran, if that is allowed, and take some cure spells from the bard or witch spell list.

or dip cleric and eventually take mystic theurge, and forget about bluffing being a cult leader, you will have the divine mojo to really be the cult leader...

these are probably your two best options considering your fore mentioned inflexibility.

[Giegue]

Likewise, if you could ask to change your school specialty, the life subschool of the necromancy school gives the wizard access to some healing ability. The healing sadly is not that great, but at least it's healing.

Likewise, if you want to be a "cult leader" with high-cha, I would HIGHLY sugjest going Oracle over cleric. Oracle is a cha-focused, divine caster class that can get full access to healing and, depending on your mystery, can gain bluff as a class skill. The Life mystery is the mystery most keyed to healing, but sadly lacks the bluff skill among it's added skills. All Oracles can heal, though, and automatically get all Cure spells without costing them any precious spells known. Since your wizard side is all about knowing tons of spells, having your divine side be spontaneous won't hurt that much, and it will give you the Cha you want for your character concept.

[Zahhak]

Thanks. I'm a generalist wizard, but I'm mostly using damaging spells, so I'm kind of a generic nuker at the moment. At this point I guess I'll need to look at either Oracle or Favored Soul when I pick up.

[zalmatra]

There is a more complicated and somewhat pricy option for healing without multiclassing and thats complete divine arcane domian healing

full class wizard with healing

[Giegue]

I would definitely choose Oracle over Favored Soul. Oracle gets class features that actually matter to you. Most of the Favored Soul's class features are based on weapons and melee and as a result not fit for a mystic theurge who is looking to be a blaster/healer rather then a gish. Secondly, Favored Soul's spellcasting is not 100% charisma-based. The Favored soul uses charisma for everything EXCEPT it's spell DCs, which are instead wisdom based. As a result, a single-classes favored soul is EXTREMELY MAD and has essentially TWO CASTING STATS. Most favored souls thus either focus on melee, buffs and utility, pumping cha while dumping wis, or focus on offensive casting, dumping charisma and focusing on wis, using +cha items to gain access to higher spell levels. As a Mystic Theurge, you ALSO need int, so going favored soul means your right back to wear you started, needing int, cha AND wis.

Oracle, however, doesn't need wis for anything. It's casting stat for everything, spell DCs included, is cha. It also, depending on your mystery, can have class features relevant for a blaster/healer and not tied to melee like those of the favored soul. If want to be good at healing, there is the life mystery. If you like blasting things with fire, look no further then the flames mystery. Other mysteries can offer other stuff for a caster as well. Lore being great for divination-type stuff, Dark Tapestry having some fun battlefield control and polymorphing options, Bones being there if you like Necromancy ect... Oracle is just all around better for you then favored soul unless you plan on gishing it up, and even then the Oracle has mysteries made for melee that make you a far superior melee combatant then a favored soul would be normally.

[Radar]

There is a problem with entering Mystic Theurge without shenanigans: you will be lagging behind the rest of the party, which will hurt your blasting ability. You need to spend 3 levels on a prepared divine spellcaster (or even 4 on a spontaneous). If you want to be a cult leader, then think about dipping into Ur-Priest (Complete Divine) - feat requirements might be a problem, if you can't rearange those you already have, but it has quicker progression (you'll only need two levels before entering Mystic Theurge) and Bluff as a class skill. Interesting fluff is a bonus. Unfortunately it's an evil-only class.

[Zahhak]

Thanks for all the input Giegue.


There is a problem with entering Mystic Theurge without shenanigans: you will be lagging behind the rest of the party, which will hurt your blasting ability.

How so?

[dextercorvia]

Thanks for all the input Giegue.



How so?

Your spells will be at least one level lower and your CL will be at least 3 lower.

[Zahhak]

Yes, while I'm an Oracle/Favored Soul. I think my group would be better off with a sub-powered nuker and a sub powered healer, then a full power nuker and no healer.

[dextercorvia]

Yes, while I'm an Oracle/Favored Soul. I think my group would be better off with a sub-powered nuker and a sub powered healer, then a full power nuker and no healer.

You will be equally behind at that, which means you will have no chance at keeping up with in combat healing. If all you are doing is out of combat healing, then you can achieve that with some cross class UMD and wands of Lesser Vigor, or just expect everyone to buy a couple of healing belts.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While a theurge with no early entry might be a bit behind in a mid to high-op game, the OP's refering to wizard as a "nuker" and cleric as a "healer." Falling behind a spell level probably won't be as big a deal as it might in some games.

Fixing the CL problem is simple enough, just pick up some CL boosting items and maybe practiced spellcaster for whichever side you feel is more important, both if you really think you need it.

[Radar]

You will be equally behind at that, which means you will have no chance at keeping up with in combat healing. If all you are doing is out of combat healing, then you can achieve that with some cross class UMD and wands of Lesser Vigor, or just expect everyone to buy a couple of healing belts.
This mostly. There is also the issue of having only as many actions per round. If you are healing instead of blasting, then the fight will take longer, which means more HP loss. Considering, that low level healing spells won't be able to keep up with the damage done by monsters, in-combat healing will make you lose HP.

This will be less important, if the OP is still low level currently and can enter Mystic Theurge early, but will be much more of a problem, if he already has 5 or more levels of wizard.

There is an alternative of someone taking Leadership for a Healer cohort.

[Zahhak]

You will be equally behind at that, which means you will have no chance at keeping up with in combat healing. If all you are doing is out of combat healing, then you can achieve that with some cross class UMD and wands of Lesser Vigor, or just expect everyone to buy a couple of healing belts.

Now, I could be terribly mistaken, but I'm pretty the class abilities of the Mystic Theurge is +1 Arcane Spell Caster Level/+1 Divine Spell Caster Level.


This mostly. There is also the issue of having only as many actions per round. If you are healing instead of blasting, then the fight will take longer, which means more HP loss. Considering, that low level healing spells won't be able to keep up with the damage done by monsters, in-combat healing will make you lose HP.

We're level 2 and were in a boss fight a session or two ago, at the time we were level 1. My character was at or below 0 hit points twice, our tank was at or below 1 hit point twice, and our Melee DPS/skill sub walked out of the fight with 2 hit points (and was 0 earlier in the session). We survived because we managed to temporarily pick a 4th level healer who only acted when someone was about to die. That kind of thing wont happen very often. I do not care if I fall behind in power, or because I'm multitasking, if we do not get someone with some healing power soon we are going to die.

[dextercorvia]

Now, I could be terribly mistaken, but I'm pretty the class abilities of the Mystic Theurge is +1 Arcane Spell Caster Level/+1 Divine Spell Caster Level.

Yes, but since you need casting on both sides first, you lose casting levels at each.


I do not care if I fall behind in power, or because I'm multitasking, if we do not get someone with some healing power soon we are going to die.

A level 1 healer at this point is much worse than picking up a couple of wands or healing belts. You'd get, what, 3-4 cure light wounds? A healing belt costs less than 750gp and gives you essentially 3 cure moderate wounds per day.

If you just want to go Mystic Theurge because it sounds like fun, then go for it. But, if you are doing it to 'pick up some healing ability', there are better ways to do that.