The Wizard and The Swashbuckler

[Palanan]

First, a reminder to my players: skedaddle!



So, I could use advice on a potential balance issue in my campaign, one which I've brought upon myself. The party as it stands is unexpectedly martial, with a swashbuckler/rogue, a fighter-archer and a barbarian/warblade. They're currently around fifth level, and so far there's been more roleplaying and storyline than raw combat.

I'm fine with the group's humble tier level--this fits the campaign very well--but I have a prospective new player who's set on running an arcane caster, in part owing to a comment I made. The new guy's mentioned a couple of high-powered arcane options (Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, etc.) which I'm not that thrilled with, and his latest idea is a wizard- or sorcerer/wild mage build.

I'm not at all familiar with the wild mage, and it doesn't look over-the-top, but I could use your thoughts on a couple of questions:


1. Would a sorcerer/wild mage be too far out of place for this group, powerwise or otherwise?

2. Is using Practiced Spellcaster on wild mage considered creamy gouda?

[Randomguy]

1. Would a sorcerer/wild mage be too far out of place for this group, powerwise or otherwise?

2. Is using Practiced Spellcaster on wild mage considered creamy gouda?

1. Not really. In general, it's considered a bit sub par, since wizards and sorcerers tend to want control, not chaos. That said, it's an easy to qualify for prestige class that doesn't lose any caster levels and has a smattering of cool features. I suppose I'd say it's about as powerful as Loremaster.

2. To my knowledge it's considered a bit cheesy, but you can always house rule it so that they don't work that way, or ask him not to take practiced spellcaster.

[dextercorvia]

2. Seems out of line with the party you have lined out.

You might try seeing if he would be interested in optimizing a lower tier arcane caster. You can get a lot of mileage out of a Bard in a Melee heavy party. Beguilers get quite a bit of BFC, and can feel suitably castery.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

On using Practiced Spellcaster with Wild Mage, you get to apply your own effects in the most beneficial order. Wild Magic gives you a -3 caster level and a +1d6 caster level, but both of those are parts of the same single effect that is Wild Magic. You can apply Practiced Spellcaster before that (for no effect), or after it (for no loss of caster level on a bad roll), but you absolutely cannot apply Practiced Spellcaster after the -3 but before the +1d6. That would be splitting the Wild Magic effect in half, which is not allowed under any interpretation of the rules.

[Randomguy]

On using Practiced Spellcaster with Wild Mage, you get to apply your own effects in the most beneficial order. Wild Magic gives you a -3 caster level and a +1d6 caster level, but both of those are parts of the same single effect that is Wild Magic. You can apply Practiced Spellcaster before that (for no effect), or after it (for no loss of caster level on a bad roll), but you absolutely cannot apply Practiced Spellcaster after the -3 but before the +1d6. That would be splitting the Wild Magic effect in half, which is not allowed under any interpretation of the rules.

Yes, but if you apply wild magic first and then practiced spellcaster, if you roll a 1 you get -2 to CL, and can then add 2 from practiced spellcaster. So instead making your caster level vary from -2 to +3, it varies from +0 to +3.

[Roc Ness]

1. At this level, I'm inclined to say its fine to have a Sorcerer/Wild Mage. Wild mage isn't particularly over the top (it's just random). Besides, seeing as its mostly been roleplay/storyline > combat, you're less likely to see the unbalanced scenario.

2. I would say that if you are taking Practiced Spellcaster to eliminate the caster level risk of playing a Wild Mage, then you aren't playing a Wild Mage anymore, you're just trying to nick the occasional extra caster levels.

Probably best to say it doesn't work that way, because it is a bit cheesy and even if it weren't, it goes a bit too far as a subversive exploit.

[eggs]

Yes, but if you apply wild magic first and then practiced spellcaster, if you roll a 1 you get -2 to CL, and can then add 2 from practiced spellcaster. So instead making your caster level vary from -2 to +3, it varies from +0 to +3.
It's not free; it's still a 2 otherwise useless feats/1 level investment. The question isn't whether that sort of investment should make a character better (of course it should), it's how much better that investment should make the character. A +1 to +6 (mean/median 3.5) bonus might be somewhat overwhelming, but an unpredictable +0 to +3 (mean 1, median .5) isn't really out of line with its costs.

[dextercorvia]

On using Practiced Spellcaster with Wild Mage, you get to apply your own effects in the most beneficial order. Wild Magic gives you a -3 caster level and a +1d6 caster level, but both of those are parts of the same single effect that is Wild Magic. You can apply Practiced Spellcaster before that (for no effect), or after it (for no loss of caster level on a bad roll), but you absolutely cannot apply Practiced Spellcaster after the -3 but before the +1d6. That would be splitting the Wild Magic effect in half, which is not allowed under any interpretation of the rules.

I would tend to agree with this, except that the Wild Magic effect is already split. It does not simply say when casting a spell set your CL to CL-3+1d6. Instead, Wild Magic applies a permanent universal reduction in CL of -3. Only when you are casting a spell does it apply the +1d6. That means there is room for Practiced Spellcaster to be applied between those two effects.

I know this argument has been done to death, and I'm not looking for a fight, but I felt the need to point out that your interpretation is not universal.

What eggs said is really the crux. Even if it is a median +3.5, it is unpredictable, and usually you don't need to apply it to every spell. Cheesing your way into Ultimate Magus 1 single-classed costs you at most a feat and a level and gets you an automatic +1. There are several feats that will get you a second (admittedly more specific) +1 to +2 at the cost of another feat.

In most cases, I would rather have a guaranteed +3 than an unpredictable +1 to +6.

[Palanan]

Thanks for the comments so far, especially about Practiced Spellcaster. I'm convinced not to use it here.

Are there any other tricks a wild mage could spring on me?

[ThiagoMartell]

I wouldn't allow the guy to play a wizard. That's asking for trouble.
You have a low OP group and a dude that wants to optimize a wizard. So he's taking Wild Soul, not the most powerful prestige class. Still a wizard, still more powerful than everyone else. He would have to tone things down to fit and frankly, when he tried to pull something like Practiced Spellcaster + Wild Soul, I don't think that's going to happen.

Some meta-comentary: whenever we hear about someone bringing a low tier character to a party, everyone complains. No one seems to mind about a high tier character being brought to a low tier party. I find that oddly confusing.

[Talya]

Some meta-comentary: whenever we hear about someone bringing a low tier character to a party, everyone complains. No one seems to mind about a high tier character being brought to a low tier party. I find that oddly confusing.


Why? The former hurts the party. The latter helps it.

[ThiagoMartell]

Why? The former hurts the party. The latter helps it.

By making other players feel useles? I don't find that helpful at all.

[Palanan]

I should clarify that the player hasn't asked for Practiced Spellcaster yet. That's just the first item that seems to come up whenever wild mage is mentioned, so I wanted to be prepared if it came up. So far it hasn't, not from the player; I think he just likes the flavor.

And I definitely hear you about potential trouble with high-OP casters; I'm pretty set on not allowing the wizard. So my question is whether a sorcerer is less of a concern. So far it doesn't seem as if the sorcerer/wild mage option would be that much of a worry--but I'm still a little leery, so I'm definitely open to comments.

[ThiagoMartell]

I should clarify that the player hasn't asked for Practiced Spellcaster yet. That's just the first item that seems to come up whenever wild mage is mentioned, so I wanted to be prepared if it came up. So far it hasn't, not from the player; I think he just likes the flavor.

And I definitely hear you about potential trouble with high-OP casters; I'm pretty set on not allowing the wizard. So my question is whether a sorcerer is less of a concern. So far it doesn't seem as if the sorcerer/wild mage option would be that much of a worry--but I'm still a little leery, so I'm definitely open to comments.

Well, Sorcerer can still be quite powerful. Wild Soul is arguably better for a Sorcerer than for a Wizard (it does kind of expand one's spell list, after all). You're still playing with fire with a Sorcerer, but at least you have a nomex glove on.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's perfectly possible to play a Wizard or other high tier caster in
a low tier party without ruining the other players fun.

Unless the player in question has a history of breaking your games without regard to
the consequences i would rather talk to him about his character concept and what power level
you are comfortable with instead of outright banning entire classes.

That aside, taking a feat to negate a drawback is hardly cheesy, they're supposed to make you stronger after all.
And in this case it's hardly a gamebreaking issue imo.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell
Wild Soul is arguably better for a Sorcerer than for a Wizard (it does kind of expand one's spell list, after all).

Hmm. Apart from advancing the sorcerer's ordinary progression, how does Wild Mage expand the spell list? The only thing that seems to fit is the Reckless Dweomer ability, which is fairly late in the PrC.

[Talya]

By making other players feel useles? I don't find that helpful at all.

Someone following TLN's Batman Wizard guide actually makes everyone else feel like gods.

Meanwhile, adding a low-tier character to a stronger party can cause a TPK.

[Urpriest]

Hmm. Apart from advancing the sorcerer's ordinary progression, how does Wild Mage expand the spell list? The only thing that seems to fit is the Reckless Dweomer ability, which is fairly late in the PrC.

Maybe Thiago was thinking of Wild Soul?

[mregecko]

Well, Sorcerer can still be quite powerful. Wild Soul is arguably better for a Sorcerer than for a Wizard (it does kind of expand one's spell list, after all). You're still playing with fire with a Sorcerer, but at least you have a nomex glove on.

OP is talking about Wild Mage I believe, not Wild Soul. Doesn't expand spell list.

Anywho, am I the only one who thinks that you should just talk to the player about your concerns? As an experienced arcane-caster player and lover of Optimization, I have absolutely played T1 arcane casters in low-op groups without stealing the show.

Sometimes it's nice to just play with "fun" spells and know that, if things get really bad and a TPK is imminent, you can probably save the group.

There is a difference between being able to dominate the game and actually dominating the game.

Talk to your player, tell him what you've told us, and make sure that he understands that you want to keep the low-op / easy-going spirit of the game and, if he plays a wizard, he should cooperate with that.

Simple.

-- Mr

[eggs]

Someone following TLN's Batman Wizard guide actually makes everyone else feel like gods.
Isn't that exactly the type of support that adds compulsory Angel Summoner/BMX bandit links to these threads?

But Barbarian/Warblade and Daring Outlaw are fairly robust options. If the Fighter's on the same optimization level, and the Sorcerer doesn't just dive into things like action economy abusers, polymorph or binding spells, this doesn't sound like a situation where the game should be expected to break, like Iot7V might have been.

[Talya]

Isn't that exactly the type of support that adds compulsory Angel Summoner/BMX bandit links to these threads?


The "Being Batman" guide actually discourages summoning, because the cleric or druid can do it just as well and the wizard has better things to do.

Thing is, much of what the batman wizard does, is immobilize and shut down the enemy so the lower-tier types can beat it up without dying.

[Flickerdart]

Isn't that exactly the type of support that adds compulsory Angel Summoner/BMX bandit links to these threads?
Angel Summoner solves all his problems with direct applications of angels. This is more like if BMX Bandit was paired with a mechanic that tooled up his bike with sweet jet engines and blades everywhere and also welded a gun to his helmet.

[eggs]

It's a real testimony to your BMXing skills! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw#t=3m58s)

[Palanan]

In other news, the player just floated Malconvoker. This was immediately kiboshed.

Suddenly the Wild Mage doesn't seem all that bad by comparison...which was probably the idea.

:smalltongue:

[ThiagoMartell]

Maybe Thiago was thinking of Wild Soul?

Exactly. Sorry for the mix up :smallredface: