Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

[dascarletm]

My long time friend, best man at my wedding, and I now live close enough to play DnD. I'm joining a game in progress (lvl 5) and I asked him if I could play a wizard. He said that was cool. So I'm building a wizard and writing a backstory as I'm tying my abilities to the story and telling him my build he starts laughing.

He tells me that I optimize and min-max too much. My characters are too powerful. I don't think I go crazy on optimization.

Here is my build.
I never post builds so I'll just give the bulletpoints.
Wiz5
Elven racial substitution for level 1, 3.
Hummingbird familiar
Feats: Colegate Wizard, Improved Initiative, Extend Spell.

He says that since I get a +12 to initiative I'm a cheesemaster.

Idk what to do.

He is also the guy that has banned metamagic rods since they are "way too overpowered."

I would like to build a competent character. I don't plan on making the other players feel useless since well they are new to DnD. I was going to focus on buffs and BC.

What do yall think I should do?

[roguemetal]

Gotta say, I kinda agree with your friend. If this is a party of newbies, I would usually suggest limiting it to one splatbook at most.

Using racial substitution is a little high brow for new players. Try to think back to when you were playing your first couple of games. There's no way you would know what the player was even doing to build his character the way you have, and the explanation would just become convoluted and lost on them.

And yes, I do also agree that metamagic rods can be overpowered if used by someone who knows what they're doing, although no, I wouldn't personally restrict them. I say just go with the flow, his restrictions don't seem to be harsh, and he's not crafting the story with only you in mind. You may be the most experienced in the party but no reason to be the leader. You could even drop the metamagic and familiar if this is too close to their first session.

[silverwolfer]

haha wow, yeah pure , not to be mean, but I see feats that are cheesy as hell.

Taking a humming bird as a creature leads me to some thoughts of cheese, your colligate wizard, leads me to think even more natrual link hmm more speed.


I am sorry, am not seeing roleplay, am seeing rollplay.

[Alaris]

You really aren't being overpowered. At all. Maybe he thinks you are because you're taking some ACFs, or Substitution Levels, and that makes it suspicious.

I am curious how you have a +12 to Initiative, but that's still not something to really cry foul over. Sure, you're likely to go first, but it's not going to win every fight unless you're built to blow away all encounters (which a Wizard can be).

My recommendation is to simply play as you plan to; a high-initiative, buffer wizard, with some battlefield control thrown in. As long as you're not making the other players feel inept, it'll be fine.


haha wow, yeah pure , not to be mean, but I see feats that are cheesy as hell.

Taking a humming bird as a creature leads me to some thoughts of cheese, your colligate wizard, leads me to think even more natrual link hmm more speed.


I am sorry, am not seeing roleplay, am seeing rollplay.

I'm sorry... what? Finally found it... okay, Hummingbird is a powerful familiar, no doubt. Yes, it's a bit of optimizing, but it's not really breaking anything.

Collegiate Wizard? Overpowered? I mean come on! It grants him more spells per level, and more spells at 1st level. A bonus to Spellcraft (Or is it Knowledge Arcana?). It's hardly a cheesy feat.

The man said he was linking his story to his powers, etc, so I really doubt he's going for "Rollplay" as it were.

[eggs]

You're dumpster-diving otherwise obscure resources to fit into optimization-staple combos. That's playing a very different game than casual pick-up-the-PHB-grab-what-looks-cool gamers play, and it sounds like the rest of the group falls into that category.

And free metamagic can be a gamebreaker, so that's not one of those quirks that shows inexperience with the rules.

So just don't do the things that bug the DM. It's not unreasonable to stick to core, or SRD or SRD+completes or whatever, or to ignore sources of free metamagic.

[silverwolfer]

+4 improved initiate

+4 humming bird
+4 Elf ACF natrual link


+ whatever dex is


With alot of spell choices am seeing here for someone who just wants to buff that seems out of place.

Maybe something more inline to your party members power level is more inline.

[roguemetal]

My recommendation is to simply play as you plan to; a high-initiative, buffer wizard, with some battlefield control thrown in.
You ARE aware Initiative is one of the major concerns of all optimized wizards, yes? And +12 is a little much.

[Acanous]

Drop the racial subs and he'll probably be OK with it.


...then just pick up Nerveskitter.

[Alaris]

You ARE aware Initiative is one of the major concerns of all optimized wizards, yes? And +12 is a little much.

But if he's focused on primarily Buffing, with some battlefield control... and he's AWARE his DM is wary of optimization... I imagine he won't just obliterate things.

Okay yes, admittedly, +12 is a bit too much to have all the time (basically). He could fix that but choosing a different familiar to ease the worries of his DM, if he really wanted to.

Honestly, I don't see it as too broken. Doesn't compare to some of the wizards I've seen. As long as he'd not dedicating himself to full battlefield control and "Batman-hood," then his DM should have nothing to worry about.


+4 improved initiate
+4 humming bird
+4 Elf ACF natrual link
+ whatever dex is


Umm... I don't think the Natural Link thing would apply to Improved Initiative. As far as I can tell, it applies to Skill Bonus, Saving Throw Bonus, or Hit Point Bonus, but nothing else.

[Sutremaine]

You can roll up a pointy-hatted god and roleplay them as an interesting character. All it takes is a playstyle that sees high-op as normal-op, and nobody ever complains about normal-op characters being unroleplayable. Alternatively, all it takes is a player who sees their character's personality as being separate from their build.

That said, if the DM's response to the power level of your level 5 character is laughter, maybe you should take your op-fu and apply it to something that's either lower-tier or has comparatively little splatbook support? See what the newbies are building, and make your feat, race, and substitution level choices based on that. If you're still set on playing a Wizard, even a purely-Core one is still incredibly powerful.

[eggs]

The Elf Generalist+Hummingbird+Martial Wizard is a well known, and often used optimization trick. The only thing missing is a domain.

The combination can be gamebreaking because with Nerveskitter and a decent dex, it's pretty easy for the wizard to sit on an initiative ~20 higher than its enemies, meaning the Wizard *will* go first, and its opponents will usually be blinded/stunned/otherwise removed from the fight before their actions come around.

Unless the DM escalates the game with constant surprise, foresight-like effects, various immunities or just tougher monsters, the combination, plus halfway decent Save DCs on the Wizard's part, trivializes combat. And if the DM does escalate, and the rest of the party are playing weapon focus Fighters and Spring Attack Monks, the game falls apart.

The best call is to just tone it down.

[silverwolfer]

Alairis it doubles whatever it gives you :)

[Mishkov]

I'd switch to a cleric or bard even.

People are generally more likely to be ok with you buffing them and making your side stronger than just knocking out and disabling the enemy or outright killing them.

It might be fun to try to see if you can make your party just that much better too.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I say go all-out:
Name him Ozymandias, the smartest+fastest man elf in the world.

Snow Elf in Frostburn gets a Cha penalty instead of a Con penalty. Use Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. Specialize in Conjuration and get Abrupt Jaunt (dodge bullets). Take Obtain Familiar at 3rd level for the Hummingbird, and still get the Elf Wizard 3 sub level. At Wizard 5 get the Domain Power ACF for either Planning (Extend Spell) or Inquisition (+4 to dispel checks) or just get Spontaneous Divination. Go into Paragnostic Apostle asap, and eventually pick up Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

[Alaris]

Alairis it doubles whatever it gives you :)

No matter what? Jeez... that's kinda sick. My Crystal Keep Classes file only mentions the Skills/Saves/HP.. okay.

Definitely either get rid of the Hummingbird, or the 3rd Generalist Level.

[dascarletm]

Thanks for the advice. I'm probably going to roll something else, though with my 10page backstory I already wrote I feel as though it is a waste.

The hummingbird was only because I really like hummingbirds. I'll see if he'll keep the hummingbird and change the bonus to be different.

Collegate wizard I picked because in my backstory my elf was of a noble house, and was sent to a wizarding college.

My favorite thing to do is buff the crap out of other players. They are a Sorcerer, who I don't know his spell choice I expect blasting, a Swashbuckler, and a fighter.

I really want to just keep baddies off the blaster, the fighter and swashbuckler buffed to all hell. Maybe a little slow action on the martial baddies.


Also I don't much care for being called not a roleplayer. The games I enjoy are mostly story and very little combat. The DM I'm talking about, by best man, has lots of sessions that is just story and talking. Love it.

Anyway my other character I was going to write backstory for and make would be a paladin. I don't know how much I should optimize. It's hard not to when I know too much stuff that works well together. Any help with that? How do I return to that "new player" place?

[Randomguy]

You. Are. A. Wizard. Even going Wizard 20 using spells from core only, you're going to be competent. You just might not be completely indestructible.

I suggest making a core only, or core + spell compedium only character, maybe with other books for items. And you'd still probably outshine all the other players.


In general, to return to that "new player place", just forget that any of the splatbooks even exist.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You could try the one-splat method. Build your entire character using only one splat-book of your choice, plus core. UA is a splat, the fact it's in the SRD now not-withstanding.

Tip: you shouldn't pick UA as your one splat.

To be clear, when I say "build your character" I only mean race, class, feats, ACF's, and PrC's. Pick your spells and items from wherever.

[dascarletm]

You. Are. A. Wizard. Even going Wizard 20 using spells from core only, you're going to be competent. You just might not be completely indestructible.

I suggest making a core only, or core + spell compedium only character, maybe with other books for items. And you'd still probably outshine all the other players.

If I just focus on making the other characters total monsters do you think it'd be okay?
Perhaps I should make a vanilla paladin

[RFLS]

I am sorry, am not seeing roleplay, am seeing rollplay.

Stormwind harder.

[Alaris]

If I just focus on making the other characters total monsters do you think it'd be okay?
Perhaps I should make a vanilla paladin

Honestly, you'd probably be okay if you drop the initiative down. Most of the other stuff is likely fine, since you intend to do buffing primarily.

[On the other note: Adding another fighter-type to the party is NOT going to help much. At best, I'd say play a Cleric-type to give you guys some healing.]

[Kelb_Panthera]

I see a lack of skillmonkey in that party. A well prepared rogue, factotum, bard, etc could do pretty well. Bard could also cover the traditional heal-bot role, not that it's a necessary role if you know what you're doing.

If you know how to op-fu a bard to the nines, you can still do the buffing schtick pretty hardcore too.

[dascarletm]

Honestly, you'd probably be okay if you drop the initiative down. Most of the other stuff is likely fine, since you intend to do buffing primarily.

[On the other note: Adding another fighter-type to the party is NOT going to help much. At best, I'd say play a Cleric-type to give you guys some healing.]

True, I've always wanted to roleplay that code though.:smallcool:
:miko:

[Kelb_Panthera]

True, I've always wanted to roleplay that code though.:smallcool:
:miko:

You could split the difference and play a sword of the arcane order paladin if Champions of Valor is available.

[Alaris]

True, I've always wanted to roleplay that code though.:smallcool:
:miko:

*Nod* I've been wanting to try out a Paladin, but I'm currently in all of one game... and it's online. Very sad. Used to have 2-3 In-Person games going at any given time, but that died down after 2 of my friend's moved.

Nonetheless, I am waiting for one of my friend's games to start back up... will probably be playing a Goblin Paladin [in the style of Big Ears from Goblins Comic].

Regardless, if you really want to, and you think it'll work [with this being a low-op campaign], then I'd say give it a try. Anything is possible.

[Jeff the Green]

True, I've always wanted to roleplay that code though.:smallcool:
:miko:

Just because you're a paladin doesn't mean you're a Paladin. I mean, I'm playing a Dread Necromancer paladin right now, and I've built Wizard paladins, Ranger paladins, and Warmage paladins. Beguiler and Warlock might be hard to do, but paladin orders are going to need spellcasting and scouting support.

[Alaris]

Just because you're a paladin doesn't mean you're a Paladin. I mean, I'm playing a Dread Necromancer paladin right now, and I've built Wizard paladins, Ranger paladins, and Warmage paladins. Beguiler and Warlock might be hard to do, but paladin orders are going to need spellcasting and scouting support.

Well yeah, but it doesn't offer the same feel. The idea with a Paladin (for many people) is that your God is always watching. You are devout, you MUST stick to the code. You are A PALADIN!

Hired help isn't going to be as restricted, and while they might be "held to the code," it would only be by the church, who isn't always watching.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Well, your wizard for sure is not unoptimized. What would matter to me, is what do you plan to do now you have won the initiative game? Are you going to disable your enemy before it attacks, which is useful but not neccesarily very enjoyable for your team mates, or are you going to cast Haste? Those metamagic rods, would you use them to make your spells even more nasty, or to (in the future) add a quickened Mass Animal Ability score to your Haste?

I can see you make a case for the latter type of wizard in his games, but it sounds like the first one for sure is not appreciated.

[icefractal]

I don't see what the fuss is about. I mean, yes, that's a high initiative. So what? Honestly, a +6 or whatever you'd get just from having Improved Initiative would often be high enough to go first anyway; all this does is make that more consistent. And while it might seem "high for first level", that's an illusion - initiative doesn't scale by level.

In actual experience, I'm currently in a game with a character that has +28 Initiative (IIRC). And it's not a significant factor in their power.


However, this does demonstrate an important lesson - many people get paranoid about seeing "too high" numbers. So if you want to be good at something, get several factors that combine into awesomeness rather than a single big bonus. The actual effect will be the same, but people won't see double digits and claim you're "rollplaying".

[Serpentine]

My 2c, cuz everyone cares so much:

Don't give up on your character completely. If you want to play a Wizard, and you've built up your character in cohesion with the backstory you've come up with, that's great. Go with it.
The stuff you've said about easing back on it sounds fine to me. If it's the hummingbird you want because of the hummingbird, rather than the abilities, brilliant. I think it'd be great if you talked to your DM about changing the bonuses it gives, and if I were your DM I'd be really pleased about that - I'd feel like you were actually listening to my concerns, and it'd help prove to me that you're basing your decisions not on pure mechanics but on character. I'm not sure what the rest of the stuff is like, but if changing the hummingbird brings you don't to +8 initiative that doesn't seem terrible to me.
Did you tell your DM that you were intending to focus on buffing the rest of the party? If not, I think you really should stress that, and maybe offer to show him your spell list as you're building it. Make it clear that your goal isn't to destroy every encounter single-handedly, but to help the others to do so.

[Alaris]

I don't see what the fuss is about. I mean, yes, that's a high initiative. So what? Honestly, a +6 or whatever you'd get just from having Improved Initiative would often be high enough to go first anyway; all this does is make that more consistent. And while it might seem "high for first level", that's an illusion - initiative doesn't scale by level.

In actual experience, I'm currently in a game with a character that has +28 Initiative (IIRC). And it's not a significant factor in their power.


However, this does demonstrate an important lesson - many people get paranoid about seeing "too high" numbers. So if you want to be good at something, get several factors that combine into awesomeness rather than a single big bonus. The actual effect will be the same, but people won't see double digits and claim you're "rollplaying".

Fractal, the idea is that, a Wizard who wins initiative can win the combat in one round. A fighter cannot do the same.

But for here, the idea is that his Wizard will be doing buffing (a lah Haste, Heroism, etc), so it shouldn't be too painful.

The only reason I'm suggesting dropping the Initiative is because it bugs the DM.

[dascarletm]

I told him I'm going to buff hard he told me that if I buff/debuff the encounter too hard the other players wont have fun if it is too easy. Also, "like if you have the perfect spell for a situation" then you will make the others feel useless.

[Serpentine]

Huh. Well that sucks. But still, getting him involved in your spell choice could still help.

[sdream]

I'd stick with the backstory and just play a bookish cleric with a trained hummingbird. (And ditch improved init)

Your cleric could be godless and dedicated to uncovering the secret to divine magic, or you could mix in some paladinish obedience.

I think some domain gave animal companion so that humingbird could be a real asset (and replaceble).

Cleric are also high teir, but with it's spell list focused on buffs and heals, and the hummingbird not giving +init, you should put your friend more at ease while keeping your backstory and theme.

(As long as you avoid going for another high op wierd build... but a cleric without martial aspect, especially if you don't pump your save DCs (not needed to play buffer, nobody resists buffs) and a non-combat focused tiny animal companion should make him quite happy and give you all the backstory authenticity you could ask for.)


Fractal, the idea is that, a Wizard who wins initiative can win the combat in one round. A fighter cannot do the same.

But for here, the idea is that his Wizard will be doing buffing (a lah Haste, Heroism, etc), so it shouldn't be too painful.

The only reason I'm suggesting dropping the Initiative is because it bugs the DM.

Actually, I think he might have a point there as well.

I had some serious issues with a DM recently because he felt I was abusing skills, and I think a big chunk of it was because I got high bonuses.

It didn't matter that the skills I was using was knowledge Arcana (to ID magic items) and gather information (to ask locals what problems they had). Big bonuses were applied in ways the DM was not familiar with, and he freaked out.

If you build a big bonus, make sure you take the time to explain to the DM exactly how you plan to use it at character creation.

[silverwolfer]

Stormwind harder.

No, Becuase I enjoy playing a Incantrix myself, but he asked a question, and I answered. If you can't provide anything then be a fire elemental elsewhere.

[LordBlades]

No, Becuase I enjoy playing a Incantrix myself, but he asked a question, and I answered. If you can't provide anything then be a fire elemental elsewhere.

You did however acvuse the OP of 'rollplaying' just because he selected some strong and synergistic abilites. That's pretty much the core of Stormwind Fallacy. For all we know each of the choices might have 10 pages of background justification.

[MesiDoomstalker]

You did however acvuse the OP of 'rollplaying' just because he selected some strong and synergistic abilites. That's pretty much the core of Stormwind Fallacy. For all we know each of the choices might have 10 pages of background justification.

From the sound of it, they do.

[Kaustic]

If you still want to use the wizard idea, and be a bit BC/Buff friendly, I'd like to 2c my thoughts. Beguiler. It nets you a bit of skillmonkey and spells. Plus with what you have in your back story, it could easily adapt to what you have.

[ThiagoMartell]

The Elf Generalist+Hummingbird+Martial Wizard is a well known, and often used optimization trick. The only thing missing is a domain.
It's also illegal.
This has been pointed out ever since the first time this "combo" showed up on 339. It was in the first page, even. People simply ignore what's written because, hey, more plusses.

I told him I'm going to buff hard he told me that if I buff/debuff the encounter too hard the other players wont have fun if it is too easy. Also, "like if you have the perfect spell for a situation" then you will make the others feel useless.

Dude, I agree completely with your DM. Do you know what the other guys are playing?

[dascarletm]

The other players again are:
Swashbuckler
Sorcerer
Fighter

I don't know the exact build, but they are new to DnD. The sorcerer has invisibility as one of his second levels, and the DM said his spell choice isn't ideal for a standard sorcerer. He is going to let him change spells if it becomes a problem.

I think I decided to:
stick with a buffing wizard and to change the bonus on the bird to another familiar's that has a similar feel. I was going to go cleric originally, but I've always wanted an undead army cleric. Since the party is good, well that is right out less I want to be a jerk and hijack the alignment.

Drop the elf wizard generalist ability since it is just superior to being a generalist? Maybe I'll keep it?

The 3rd level substitution for Elf is also powerful I'm still thinking about that one.

I'm not going to take many good prestige classes, maybe I'll take elven paragon since It loses a level of casting. Since the Idea that my elf is like a paragon of his families values, and thus was chosen to lead their house it would make sense.

Any other thoughts?

[nedz]

If your character is bookish, then they should probably have Scribe Scroll.

Also:

Whether high initiative is powerful or not depends upon how the game is run.

I've played in games where it was all important, second only to Spot.
These were games where almost every combat was an ambush, and they usually devolved into rocket tag very quickly.

But in the games I run, people often delay at first in order to get a clear picture of what's actually happing. This is due to the fog of war. Winning initiative only to be the first to wait is not useful, though you would probably be the first to react later.

[dascarletm]

If your character is bookish, then they should probably have Scribe Scroll.

Also:

Whether high initiative is powerful or not depends upon how the game is run.

I've played in games where it was all important, second only to Spot.
These were games where almost every combat was an ambush, and they usually devolved into rocket tag very quickly.

But in the games I run, people often delay at first in order to get a clear picture of what's actually happing. This is due to the fog of war. Winning initiative only to be the first to wait is not useful, though you would probably be the first to react later.

I have scribe scroll. Didn't put it in there since I didn't say I was taking the martial wizard variant.

I like going first so I can throw up magical defences before the baddies can blow me and my teamates up.

Been thinking about Cleric. It looks a lot less scary in terms of a buffer.

[Sutremaine]

Anyway my other character I was going to write backstory for and make would be a paladin. I don't know how much I should optimize. It's hard not to when I know too much stuff that works well together. Any help with that? How do I return to that "new player" place?
You know any options or combos that are interesting tricks, but not an effective use of feat slots / skill points / chosen race compared to the optimal choices?

[killem2]

I am a firm believer that it's the players that break classes not classes that break classes.

I am also a firm believe that it is the DMs job to build around the characters given.

I wouldn't worry about characters you can or can't make, submit it to the dm, see if he allows it, if not, change what he says he doesn't allow and be on you way.

I probably have showed 10 versions of my Goliath Cleric i am making for my friends session coming soon.

[Mishkov]

I have scribe scroll. Didn't put it in there since I didn't say I was taking the martial wizard variant.

I like going first so I can throw up magical defences before the baddies can blow me and my teamates up.

Been thinking about Cleric. It looks a lot less scary in terms of a buffer.

If you really want to be a buffer, why not go specialist Abjurer and then take master specialist levels? The 10th level of master specialist is known to be pretty nuts for abjurer. You could also pick up some IotsV levels afterwards too. It gets you more buffs and also you can do some counterspelling which could help out a lot against enemy casters.

Clerics are really insane buffers though. If there are particular spells you want, I bet you can pick it up in a domain. There is always DMM persist cheese that may or may not be allowed in. And they give healing and just "look like" support more.

Your pick though, either works.

[dascarletm]

If you really want to be a buffer, why not go specialist Abjurer and then take master specialist levels? The 10th level of master specialist is known to be pretty nuts for abjurer. You could also pick up some IotsV levels afterwards too. It gets you more buffs and also you can do some counterspelling which could help out a lot against enemy casters.

Clerics are really insane buffers though. If there are particular spells you want, I bet you can pick it up in a domain. There is always DMM persist cheese that may or may not be allowed in. And they give healing and just "look like" support more.

Your pick though, either works.

DM calls IotSV "total cheese." Anything that reduces metamagic too will probably get the ban hammer. perhaps master specialist.

[Rejakor]

Why the hell are people saying that this is overpowered? This isn't even particularly powerful. Maybe if it was ALSO AT THE SAME TIME a bloodline of fire early firecaster or using something to make insanely hard to save against glitterdusts and colour sprays... but being an elf who is QUICK OFF THE MARK isn't exactly ****ing breaking new ground, people... hell.. that's a staple of gorram TOLKIEN.

Although Hummingbird doesn't work with Elven Generalist, btw. It's not an ability save or skill check or hitpoints, elven generalist specifically lists those as the things it doubles.


But yeah, demographic mismatch.

Given what the GM has said, and the way he will guide the other players to create characters, having max ranks in a skill will probably be seen as 'cheesy'.

Be ready to become the pariah for doing things like casting Enlarge Person on the fighter and then pointing out that he gets an AoO if things rush past him, for feats like Combat Expertise to be touted as 'broken' because of the effect if a fighter wears full plate and uses a heavy shield and combat expertise to have more than 20 AC, for the level 10 party to be fighting MMI Orcs, and every major encounter to come with a script, macguffins, friendly npcs who do most of the heavy lifting(gandalf-style).


If you want my advice, remove anything the DM thinks is 'cheesy' from your build. If you try to show him how they are not overpowered, likely he will think you are just defending your 'cheese'. I don't know this guy, and you do, but it's pretty surprising how rabidly some people will cling to obviously wrong stupid stuff in terms of DnD/other roleplaying and yet be perfectly reasonable about other stuff. From the way you're describing this situation, this guy has fixed ideas about cheese and munchkins etc and you're not going to change that while he is the DM. Maybe you could change it in a different game, but when he is in the drivers' seat, it's very unlikely.

So i'd drop anything he has a problem with, maybe say that it's not broken but drop it regardless. Then use whatever he thinks is a-okay and still be just as if not more powerful than you were before. Finish his game.

Then start your game. Have a campaign idea or whatever. Then actually run interesting combats that challenge the players and force them to use tactics. Don't ever run NPCs as anything other than the side-characters of the story with their own motivations, comparable/understandable power level to the PCs (no derp deus ex machina 10% of the time/can't fight off orcs 90% of the time crap that turns every quest into 'escort gandalf to the BBEG'). Tell an interesting tale with relatable bad guys, encourage players to use more than their character sheets to interact with the world, etc etc.

And while doing so don't allow the current DM to control anyone's build choices to restrict what he sees as 'cheese'. Allow anyone to build what they want, and run the world as deadly enough that building sane characters rewards the players who do so.

That's probably your best bet.

EDIT: To clarify, remove anything he thinks of as cheese because in 100% of these situations I have been in, heard related, and seen happen, even if at the time the 'cheese-hating' DM/player seemed to agree that the feat/class/race/whatever wasn't overpowered, later there were problems and issues with the game, campaign, friendship that suspiciously coincided with continued remarks/problems with those mechanical choices and any further ones the player made - not to mention a world either tailored to shut down the character or kill them.

[ThiagoMartell]

Why the hell are people saying that this is overpowered? This isn't even particularly powerful.
Because the party is low tier and low OP, and the character is high tier and high OP.

[Rejakor]

No he's not.

High op is one of the things I listed.

He is at best medium op.


And he's focusing on BUFFING. Guess what BUFFING does - it raises people up tiers. That's kind of the point of BUFFING.

[Grendus]

I think Rejakor has the right idea. I'd take it one step further though - go core only, load up with buffs, and skip the more overpowered spells (PAO no, Enlarge Person yes). If the DM still complains, reroll, he doesn't want a wizard. A Bard would really help the party, skill monkey with healing and solid buffing.

[Tvtyrant]

No he's not.

High op is one of the things I listed.

He is at best medium op.


And he's focusing on BUFFING. Guess what BUFFING does - it raises people up tiers. That's kind of the point of BUFFING.

There are two tier 5 characters in his party, and they are all new to the game. Just because you are buffing doesn't mean you aren't overpowering.

For example: optimized dragonfire inspiration bard granting everyone +16d6 per hit. Suddenly everything hit dies, and the only way an opponent can challenge the party is by stopping them all before they act. But those party members may not be otherwise particularly powerful, so the dragon going first and pouring down metabreathed sonic dragonfire might completely destroy them.

[Rejakor]

There are two tier 5 characters in his party, and they are all new to the game. Just because you are buffing doesn't mean you aren't overpowering.

For example: optimized dragonfire inspiration bard granting everyone +16d6 per hit. Suddenly everything hit dies, and the only way an opponent can challenge the party is by stopping them all before they act. But those party members may not be otherwise particularly powerful, so the dragon going first and pouring down metabreathed sonic dragonfire might completely destroy them.

That's one type of buff, taken to extremes.

Not anywhere near the same as, say, a War Weaver Wizard.


Also am I LITERALLY the only person who when faced with extreme offense of a dnd party just ADDED MORE ENEMIES? Like, seriously guys. They don't need to be ****ing twinked dragons. You can just, y'know, HAVE SOME MORE ORCS. Or ogres. Or gray renders. Or whatever the party is fighting. Or hell, mix it up. Why not a gray render AND a lava elemental. Name ANY party of ANY level, and I will spin a random fight off the top of my head and it will be challenging but not insta-lethal.

[nedz]

There are a number of issues here. The one being discussed is party balance.
The newbies have brought along their BMX bandits, and the experienced player has brought along an Angel Summoner.

[TuggyNE]

Also am I LITERALLY the only person who when faced with extreme offense of a dnd party just ADDED MORE ENEMIES? Like, seriously guys. They don't need to be ****ing twinked dragons. You can just, y'know, HAVE SOME MORE ORCS. Or ogres. Or gray renders. Or whatever the party is fighting. Or hell, mix it up. Why not a gray render AND a lava elemental. Name ANY party of ANY level, and I will spin a random fight off the top of my head and it will be challenging but not insta-lethal.

Devil's advocate here: how about level 18 mailman sorcerer with Fighter 18 using Monkey Grip to wield a large fullblade and Monk 18 using a quarterstaff, along with Scout 3/Ranger 15 with Swift Hunter, travel devotion etc, and good favored enemies?

Or, more to the point, how about the difficulty of combining such an encounter, taken in isolation, with a planned-out storyline? It's not impossible, but it's not trivial either.

[Augmental]

There are a number of issues here. The one being discussed is party balance.
The newbies have brought along their BMX bandits, and the experienced player has brought along an Angel Summoner.

Actually, it's more like a party of BMX Bandits with one guy in the background giving them the power to do everything.

[TuggyNE]

Actually, it's more like a party of BMX Bandits with one guy in the background giving them the power to do everything.

For example, the power to do amazing jumps at low speed?

[toapat]

Paladin: Optimization 101:

Books Absolutely Required:
Dungeonscape
UA
Champions of Valor
Complete Champion
Dragon 306/Dragon Compendium

Race: You absolutely can not receive a Wisdom Penalty

Feats:

1: Power Attack
3: Serenity
4: Mystic Fire Knight 1
5: MFK 2, ACF: Divine Spirit.
6: MFK 3, Battle Blessing
9: Sword of the Arcane Order*

*If you can convince your DM to make it usable

[dascarletm]

Interesting. Seeing as I'm still digging buffing, I'm going to either switch to cleric (which I'd rather not do since my elf has a good backstory that requires him to be a wizard and I worked on most of the week) or just tone down the wizard. I'll just not "cheese" as he puts it because well apparently I steal the spotlight too much.

Personally I don't ever think I have every powerful character I've ever made was focused on making the party powerful. First character wizard noone knew what we were doing I took horrible prestige classes and blasted poorly. I was a sidenote character in that story.

Second PC with him was multiple characters that came in as one shot guys since i lived away from him.

Third I was an artificer and all i did was make items for everyone and some flintlocks for myself to shoot.

I digress, I spose I just needed that off my chest, sorry.

anyway. I am also the guy that "scours all the books to make broken super OP characters." Like the time we played and epic campaign and I used a rod to get 2 9th levels off in a round, or the time I played a standard fighter that happened to have good synergy for taking out orcs in our orc fighting campaign. You know because dipping classes and keeping your cha at 10-12 is being a munchkin.


bah. I love the guy but he's making me reconsider playing. I've been wanting to get into a DnD game for months picking class features and stuff i thought would be cool and relatable.

I'll save the optimization for more experienced of a group.

[killem2]

That's one type of buff, taken to extremes.

Not anywhere near the same as, say, a War Weaver Wizard.


Also am I LITERALLY the only person who when faced with extreme offense of a dnd party just ADDED MORE ENEMIES? Like, seriously guys. They don't need to be ****ing twinked dragons. You can just, y'know, HAVE SOME MORE ORCS. Or ogres. Or gray renders. Or whatever the party is fighting. Or hell, mix it up. Why not a gray render AND a lava elemental. Name ANY party of ANY level, and I will spin a random fight off the top of my head and it will be challenging but not insta-lethal.

You are not alone. I love throwing surprises at my PCs :)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Paladin: Optimization 101:
*stuff*


I'm going to disagree.

Cloistered Cleric 1/ Paladin 19+
Inquisition domain, Knowledge Devotion, Law Devotion
Divine Counterspell ACF (CM) for Paladin, it's so good but it's Cha-based so Serenity is not as important as you would think.
Get Practiced Spellcaster for one of those two classes, Divine Defiance (FC2), and whatever other feats you want. I'd prefer Power Attack and maybe Extra Smiting (unless you can get the per-day limit houseruled to per-encounter) with the Charging Smite ACF in PH2, which is especially good with (Wand of) Rhino's Rush (in a wand chamber of course).
The Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) sub levels are also quite useful, especially since your counterspell tricks don't interrupt your music, and especially especially if you can replace its Inspire Courage with Haunting Melody in Dragon Magic.

The counterspell tricks come online at level 6, when you get Divine Defiance. You can spend a turn attempt to counterspell as an immediate action, and use Divine Counterspell for that counterspell attempt. That makes a dispel check at 1d20+2+character level, plus any bonus to your effective turn undead level such as from an Ephod of Authority. There's no way to increase your daily Divine Counterspell uses other than increasing your Cha score, but you can use extra turn attempts to power Law Devotion so Night Sticks are highly recommended.

[Rejakor]

There are a number of issues here. The one being discussed is party balance.
The newbies have brought along their BMX bandits, and the experienced player has brought along an Angel Summoner.

No. Angel Summoner can explicitly solve every problem on his own and that makes BMX Bandit feel small in the pants.

I think you'll find that if Angel Summoner GOT MURDERED every time BMX Bandit wasn't there, BMX Bandit would have much less of a problem if he got murdered every time angel summoner wasn't there.

Synergistic is not the same as 'doesn't need you whatsoever'.

Without people to buff, a buffer sucks.

Without buffs, the people the buffer is buffing sucks.

THEY BOTH NEED EACH OTHER.

That is the difference.


And before the inevitable 'but he is a wizard he could just stomp all the encounters' well no, actually, if he is focused on buffing he would have extreme difficulty 'stomping' all the encounters, at least assuming the encounters are not stupidly easy to stomp (one drunk orc in a room), and he will have to waste lots of spells flailing like a madman to defeat the encounter (if he defeats it at all).

This guy is not playing a gorram incantatrix. He's playing a regular wizard focused on buffing spells with a high initiative. Yes if he dumpster dives for stupid spell combos (vortex of teeth + solid fog, say) he could indeed defeat encounters by using a bunch of high level spells all at once. But even if he DID do that he'd be able to defeat one, maybe two encounters per day before he was tapped out of his higher level spells - in the meantime, with lower level buffs and a party he can wipe out those encounters with great ease.

Not every wizard is an uberoptimized snowcaster doom wizard. Please learn this.


Devil's advocate here: how about level 18 mailman sorcerer with Fighter 18 using Monkey Grip to wield a large fullblade and Monk 18 using a quarterstaff, along with Scout 3/Ranger 15 with Swift Hunter, travel devotion etc, and good favored enemies?

Or, more to the point, how about the difficulty of combining such an encounter, taken in isolation, with a planned-out storyline? It's not impossible, but it's not trivial either.

Ugh, I did say 'any party', didn't I. One of the things I DO have problems with is parties with wildly, wildly different levels of optimization.

Well, for that group, I would probably sit down and rebuild the monk and fighter using one of the fixes that are floating around that I like. Possibly Tome Monk and Art of War Fighter. But if for some reason I couldn't do that, here is a sample fight that I would throw them against;

Mob Boss Cabreliosce(wiz5/Master Specialist 4/Planar Binding Prc 6) is cornered in his downtown waterdeep lair.

With him are his two main enforcers, Joe 'Pronto' Miraz (Rogue/Duelist/Invisible Blade, with the spell deflecting ACF from complete mage) and Benny 'Scaramanga' 'The Nose' Fitch (Diviner/Binder/Anima Mage, binding Zceryll)(Both the wizards have relatively poor spell selection, and are lower level than the party).

After fighting their way through the various lesser lieutenants in the city, busting through the security up above, and being wrongfully accused of murder and dark magic, the party breaks in for the showdown.

Main room 120' by 60', the 'main hall' of the lair, throne at far end, mob boss on it, enforcers flanking him. Doors open, 8 of them, and start spitting out monsters(spell traps of Summon Monster, summoning 1d4+1 flying things with some form of attack that hurts the players in some way, each round).

Four pits open in the floor, revealing a latticework of metal struts, and from each pit a greater elemental(CR 15 or so) (planar bound earlier) steps out, one for each quasi-elemental plane. Behind the party, the stairway collapses into rubble, and further booms indicate the entire structure collapsing on top of the entrance. A deadly latticework of red lines burns into place in the air and ground, promising fiery pain for anyone moving incautiously or being bullrushed or thrown, and with a yell of 'It's you or me now, boyos!' Cabreliosce throws a solid fog down in the middle of the room, leaving the only non-solid fogged way through the pits of mud, steam, magma, and ice. His ally lays down a Wall of Stone secretly in the centre of the Solid Fog as a bit of a surprise for anyone with Freedom of Movement.

Then the fight begins.


Breakdown; I literally thought of this on the fly. Writing it down took much longer than thinking it up. It's possibly a bit deadly for that party, but given the fight itself is essentially in two stages, it should be fine.

The biggest thing about this fight is that it's logical and thematic. The 'Mob Boss underestimates plucky heroes and they overcome his trap for them and kill him/capture him' is a great trope in adventure tales/games. And it's logical that a summoner wizard would want to trap the party and let his summons wipe them out.

Ofc this lets the party fight off the summons without him shooting them with magic as effectively as he would otherwise, but hey.

The hardest point was thinking of something in a fight like this for the monk and fighter to do that wasn't 'hit for negligible damage'.

With the pits providing a method of access that is reliant on skill checks and not flight or freedom of movement, the monk can actually get to the enemy wizard as soon as or sooner than the mailman (who will probably be blasting tiny flying creatures anyway). There, and because I allow a reflex save for forcecage and I haven't optimized these wizards (no save DCs in the high 40s, for example) the monk actually has a decent chance of annoying the enemy enough for them to waste spells (and he can feel epic doing it). So while he's going toe to toe with zceryll's summons(none of which have a super high to-hit, so his relatively low AC isn't probably a problem, even if he.. sigh.. doesn't have bracers of armour) and dodging fireballs and saving against Finger of Death, the rest of the party can catch up through the laser beams, solid fog wall of stone, and elementals + swarming creatures.

Elementals are great because they have lots of hitpoints and immunities, but they are vulnerable to HP damage. So the fullblade fighter can hit them. He can hopefully also attract the attention of the swarming flying things by being in front (low int creatures) and tank their attacks with his.. AC? hitpoints? Something. When/if he gets through the solid fog or whatever, he can ideally get to hit something because there will be a bunch of summoned pseudonatural creatures, a duelist with spell parrying and mage slayer running up in everyone's faces, and the wizards will be buffed largely against spells and arrows (as they understand that the major threats of the party are the archer and the mage).


For example, the power to do amazing jumps at low speed?

All that AND more.

[ThiagoMartell]

No. Angel Summoner can explicitly solve every problem on his own and that makes BMX Bandit feel small in the pants.

I think you'll find that if Angel Summoner GOT MURDERED every time BMX Bandit wasn't there, BMX Bandit would have much less of a problem if he got murdered every time angel summoner wasn't there.

Synergistic is not the same as 'doesn't need you whatsoever'.

Without people to buff, a buffer sucks.

Without buffs, the people the buffer is buffing sucks.

THEY BOTH NEED EACH OTHER.

That is the difference.
Except he is a wizard. He is not only able to buff. He can just end a encounter with battlefield control. After you cast black tentacles (a staple of Batman builds), the other characters just have to mop up. The encounter is basicallyt already over. A wizard does not need the other characters. God/Batman wizards just pretend they do so. The nomeclature of the God wizard handbook is telling enough.

[Rejakor]

Evard's Black Tentacles is a 4th level spell.

It comes online, at the very earliest, at 7th level.

The tentacles grapple at +15 to grapple.

So let's take a look at a CR 7 foe. The Aboleth, say. (say because it is first in the list)

It has +22 to grapple. It only fails if it rolls 7 below the roll the tentacles get.

I can use any of it's 'psionics' abilities, or Enslave, so it doesn't actually mind being grappled for a round that much.

Aboleths are pretty hardcore, though. So what about the next in line Huge Air Elemental?

+24 to grapple, so it needs to lose the roll by 9 points.

It can get out of the grapple by turning into Whirlwind form at any time.

Gargantuan Animated Object? +31 on grapple checks. It needs to roll a 1, essentially.

And even if it gets grappled for a round, with 15' reach it can STILL probably hit you, since it is a closet troll.

6th level Astral Construct? +22 to grapple, and it could have a construct ability that would help it - that said, this is the closest black tentacles has come to 'shutting down' an encounter.

Dire Bear has +23 to grapple.

Black Dragon has +16 to grapple, but whatever, it also has a +8d6 breath weapon, and shouldn't be anywhere near the ground at any point.

Black Puddings have +18 to grapple, but they're a puzzle monster anyway.



Evard's Black Tentacles is a great spell. As a 4th level spell, i'd HOPE it was this effective against stuff.

But it's only really effective against either hordes of much lower level opponents (against a bunch of ogres it would probably be neat-o), or relatively rare monster types (fey,... uh.. dunno what else), or NPCs with class levels built poorly (with no defense against grappling and no way to dispel).

Sounds to me like you've just read treantmonk's G.O.D. wizard guide and a) didn't understand it and b) have never actually seen a wizard in play that used BFC.

[Man on Fire]

My long time friend, best man at my wedding, and I now live close enough to play DnD. I'm joining a game in progress (lvl 5) and I asked him if I could play a wizard. He said that was cool. So I'm building a wizard and writing a backstory as I'm tying my abilities to the story and telling him my build he starts laughing.

He tells me that I optimize and min-max too much. My characters are too powerful. I don't think I go crazy on optimization.

Here is my build.
I never post builds so I'll just give the bulletpoints.
Wiz5
Elven racial substitution for level 1, 3.
Hummingbird familiar
Feats: Colegate Wizard, Improved Initiative, Extend Spell.

He says that since I get a +12 to initiative I'm a cheesemaster.

Idk what to do.

He is also the guy that has banned metamagic rods since they are "way too overpowered."

I would like to build a competent character. I don't plan on making the other players feel useless since well they are new to DnD. I was going to focus on buffs and BC.

What do yall think I should do?

Well, I need to agree with the guy a bit, because Initiative is one of the most important things for wizards and +12 Initiative is quite high.

[Terazul]

Well, I need to agree with the guy a bit, because Initiative is one of the most important things for everyone and +12 Initiative is higher than average because it only scales with dex normally.

Because it is, seriously.

I don't see what the big deal is. Everyone's jumping on the guy for wanting to play a wizard, acting like he wants to destroy the countryside and rule over it in a flying fortress with a glowing neon sign that says "TIER 1" floating on the side. When so far, it just seems like he wants to play a caster that sits around buffing his allies :smallconfused: He's not even taking the annoying stuff. He never said he was gonna start off every battle with some crazy combo that makes everyone useless, he didn't mention polymorphing into a dire tortoise so he can be ready for any attempts to stop him or anything.

Just let the dude have his initiative so he can cast Protection From Energy on the fighterguy when they're suddenly surrounded by fire elementals. Seems more like what it's there for than anything anyone else is suggesting.

[2xMachina]

Just let the dude have his initiative so he can cast Protection From Energy on the fighterguy when they're suddenly surrounded by fire elementals. Seems more like what it's there for than anything anyone else is suggesting.

But, but... now the DM can't kill TPK them! :smallwink:

[ThiagoMartell]

Sounds to me like you've just read treantmonk's G.O.D. wizard guide and a) didn't understand it and b) have never actually seen a wizard in play that used BFC.

Thanks for the insults, welcome to the ignore list.

[Blue1005]

My long time friend, best man at my wedding, and I now live close enough to play DnD. I'm joining a game in progress (lvl 5) and I asked him if I could play a wizard. He said that was cool. So I'm building a wizard and writing a backstory as I'm tying my abilities to the story and telling him my build he starts laughing.

He tells me that I optimize and min-max too much. My characters are too powerful. I don't think I go crazy on optimization.

Here is my build.
I never post builds so I'll just give the bulletpoints.
Wiz5
Elven racial substitution for level 1, 3.
Hummingbird familiar
Feats: Colegate Wizard, Improved Initiative, Extend Spell.

He says that since I get a +12 to initiative I'm a cheesemaster.

Idk what to do.

He is also the guy that has banned metamagic rods since they are "way too overpowered."

I would like to build a competent character. I don't plan on making the other players feel useless since well they are new to DnD. I was going to focus on buffs and BC.

What do yall think I should do?

pardon my ignorance, but what is and where do i read about racial substitution. As i was reading this I had no clue of why it was optimized cause i had never heard of most of it.

[ThiagoMartell]

pardon my ignorance, but what is and where do i read about racial substitution. As i was reading this I had no clue of why it was optimized cause i had never heard of most of it.

It's in Races of the Wild, page 157. It is not optimized with the hummingbird (from Dragon Magazine) basically because it does not work with the hummingbird familiar.

The bonus on skill checks, saves, or hit points granted by the familiar doubles.
A initiative check is not one of those.

[2xMachina]

Racial sub:

Means... if you're say, Elf, and a Wizard, you can take the Elf Wizard racial sub lvl1. You get some certain modified class features instead of the normal Wiz 1 class features.

How good a racial sub is, depends on which it is. Some are good, some are meh.

There's a number of them, like classes, so... a bit hard to see them all. It's like wanting to see a Crusader, you kinda need the book to see what it says.

[Grollub]

What were the elven Alternative class features you picked up at 1 and 3 ?

[toapat]

What were the elven Alternative class features you picked up at 1 and 3 ?

Elven Generalist and Natural link.

Elven Generalist gives you a bonus spell slot and an additional spell learned at each level

Natural link doubles the effectiveness of the familiars, but hummingbird is kinda cheesy depending on whether your DM considers Innititive to be a skill check or not, which i dont think it is.

Imo, the only good sub of the 3 levels is the first one, and that is because of how much it adds to wizard, on top of being a Grey Elf, who has a +2 int bonus. I prefer having an octopus who can use his jet ability to turn a touch spell into a 200' reach ray.

[2xMachina]

Elven Generalist and Natural link.

Elven Generalist gives you a bonus spell slot and an additional spell learned at each level

Natural link doubles the effectiveness of the familiars, but hummingbird is kinda cheesy depending on whether your DM considers Innititive to be a skill check or not, which i dont think it is.

Imo, the only good sub of the 3 levels is the first one, and that is because of how much it adds to wizard, on top of being a Grey Elf, who has a +2 int bonus. I prefer having an octopus who can use his jet ability to turn a touch spell into a 200' reach ray.

Hmm, don't think so. Init is an ability check based on Dex. Factotum's Brain over Brawn only works due to it calling out Dex (and Str) checks in addition to Skill checks based on Dex (and Str)

[Rejakor]

Thanks for the insults, welcome to the ignore list.

Saying that I don't think you understood the purpose of the guide is an insult now?

I guess this explains everything that is wrong with our society.


Fakeedit: I also like the post with exciting italicized text that shows that you didn't actually read my earlier post you were responding to in the first place.


Although Hummingbird doesn't work with Elven Generalist, btw. It's not an ability save or skill check or hitpoints, elven generalist specifically lists those as the things it doubles.

[Sith_Happens]

anyway. I am also the guy that "scours all the books to make broken super OP characters." Like the time we played and epic campaign and I used a rod to get 2 9th levels off in a round, or the time I played a standard fighter that happened to have good synergy for taking out orcs in our orc fighting campaign. You know because dipping classes and keeping your cha at 10-12 is being a munchkin.

Wait wait wait... This guy got mad at you for quickening a spell in epic? Don't know what to tell you, it sounds like anything more "optimized" that writing feat names on a dartboard is going to be too much for him.

If really want to be a buffing wizard, try Focused Specialist banning Conjuration, Evocation, and Necromancy and plan on going War Weaver. Show the DM that by doing that, you have very few good offensive options (especially without Conjuration) to use instead of the buffing you want to do, and that you'll even be losing a caster level just to become better at buffing.

Also drop Improved Initiative and just have the hummingbird to improve your check, because big numbers are apparently a problem.

[ahenobarbi]

Is high initiative only problem the DM has with your character? If it is so just take a familiar giving some other bonus. As suggested you could ask DM to refluff familiar as humming bird (because you like 'em).

[TuggyNE]

Ugh, I did say 'any party', didn't I. One of the things I DO have problems with is parties with wildly, wildly different levels of optimization.

Yeah, hence my choice of devil's advocate party. :smalltongue:


[...] here is a sample fight that I would throw them against;

Mob Boss Cabreliosce(wiz5/Master Specialist 4/Planar Binding Prc 6) is cornered in his downtown waterdeep lair.[...]

Well done, sir. I must confess I had doubts you could pull it off as well as that. There are probably some lingering imbalances (for example, the mailman has no particularly high chance of death, while the fighter is fairly likely to succumb), but those could be glossed over, as long as the pattern is not obvious to those most affected by it.

[Threadnaught]

Also am I LITERALLY the only person who when faced with extreme offense of a dnd party just ADDED MORE ENEMIES? Like, seriously guys. They don't need to be ****ing twinked dragons. You can just, y'know, HAVE SOME MORE ORCS. Or ogres. Or gray renders. Or whatever the party is fighting. Or hell, mix it up. Why not a gray render AND a lava elemental. Name ANY party of ANY level, and I will spin a random fight off the top of my head and it will be challenging but not insta-lethal.

Against my party, a Druid and a Wizard both human. I throw up something I expect them to be able to take out in a single round and they end up wasted in two rounds struggling to pick themselves up when they finish the fight, their opponents' body parts splattered all around them. Yet, when I try to hurt them, they're a serious threat.
I dare you to challenge my players a level 5 Druid with a Hawk companion and a level 5 Wizard. I seriously dare you. :smallamused:

[nedz]

Against my party, a Druid and a Wizard both human. I throw up something I expect them to be able to take out in a single round and they end up wasted in two rounds struggling to pick themselves up when they finish the fight, their opponents' body parts splattered all around them. Yet, when I try to hurt them, they're a serious threat.
I dare you to challenge my players a level 5 Druid with a Hawk companion and a level 5 Wizard. I seriously dare you. :smallamused:

Ah, the old easy fight trick.
I've seen more PCs die in these than almost anything else, until high level anyway. Its usually caused by player error because they don't take the situation seriously, or something like that ?:smallbiggrin:

[Threadnaught]

Ah, the old easy fight trick.
I've seen more PCs die in these than almost anything else, until high level anyway. Its usually caused by player error because they don't take the situation seriously, or something like that ?:smallbiggrin:

Yep, and in yesterday's session I had them both against a Lich and decided to be nice to my Druid by letting him stack the damage for his Full Attack. (because come on, Lich was ECL13)
Lich ended up on 2HP and I spent all the Wizard's turn hoping he wouldn't use Magic Missile, he'd already used Flaming Sphere. (his favourite Spell)
He went with Dispel Magic so he could neutralize the Lich's buffs (it spent the whole fight buffing). So the Lich escaped.

[Rejakor]

Well the first thing I noticed about those two encounters was that one had multiple enemies ('opponents') and the other had only a single enemy. The Action Economy is totally a thing, and one enemy versus multiple PCs will get far fewer actions.

Liches are also very vulnerable without buff spells, as they have far fewer HD than most undead of their CR (and thus very few hp) as well as not having some innate natural armour bonuses or whatever that would make them hard to hit without buffs.

I'd prefer to know the level of op of your group, as a wizard can be nigh useless (magic missile the darkness!) or a god of war (arcane thesis: ROCKET LAWNCHAIR), and although a hawk companion tells me things about your druid, it probably isn't enough for a full analysis.

That said, I would probably go heavy on the setpiece fights, and light on the ambushes.

So an ambush by 12 orc archers and 2 War Dogs even though that's below CR 5, would be appropriate.

But a setpiece battle against an unbuffed ogre mage, two trained giant monitor lizards, and 20 kobold tribesmen, despite being well above CR 5, would be appropriate.

I.e. these two top tier classes, with prep, could wipe out many things. But if taken unawares, as there's only two of them, and they're relatively easy to take down without buffs/being a bear, they could be TPK'd be a CR appropriate ambush.

[Sith_Happens]

(arcane thesis: ROCKET LAWNCHAIR),

I demand to know what book this spell is in.:smalltongue: In before someone thinks I'm asking about Arcane Thesis.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Locked for review.