Optimizing a Theurge Hierophant

[Cranthis]

I'm starting this build at level 7, and I have the classes down. Now I'm looking for some help with feats. Let me show what I have so far.

Druid 3/ Wizard 1/ Mystic Theurge 2/ Arcane Hierophant 1
Human
Stats (in order): 13 16 16 21 17 17 (Really lucky rolls plus age and Backstory stuff, all DM approved)

Flaw 1: do later
Flaw 2: do later

Feats so far:
Education
Lost Tradition (Druid casting to Int)
Heighten Spell
Versatile Spellcaster
Theurgic Bond x2


I know my feat choices and such aren't great, but I keep my optimizing down just a wee bit, for the party. But I would like suggestions. Heighten spell and Versatile Spellcaster can be traded for Sanctum spell and one other feat. Also, Animal Companion Suggestions would be nice.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Your build doesn't work because AH requires 4 BAB.
You need another level of Druid or Wizard or 2 more levels of Theurge to qualify.

Also, you could trade away your Familiar for an ACF and take Obtain Familiar instead of the second Theurgic Bond.
You'd lose 3 levels of Familiar progression instead of 2 (which isn't all that important anyway imho) and gain something better like Abrupt Jaunt.

Edit: a possible Interpretation: Theurgic Bond adds your full Familiar level to your Animal Companion level, which is your arcane caster level with Obtain Familiar.
This would mean that your levels in AH effectively count twice for your AC. Good luck getting your DM to allow it stacking like this though.

[Darius Kane]

Maybe try:
Rogue 2 / Druid 1 / Bard 2 / Green Whisperer 2 / Arcane Hierophant 3 / Sublime Chord 1-2 / Fochlucan Lyrist

[Pilo]

Your build is invalide because of the +4 bab required to get into Arcane hierophant.

Why do you take so many level in druid?
As druid can spontaneously cast "summon nature’s ally", you can lose 2 first level spell slots to cast summon nature’s ally 2 while Druid 1 so you only need Druid 2/Wizard 1 before entering Mystic Theurge.

Edit: My bad

Druid3/Wizard1/MysticTheurge4/Arcane Hierophant 10/MysticTheurge2 is a legal build focused on casting.

Druid4/Wizard2/Arcane Hierophant 10/MysticTheurge4 is a legal build focused on animal compagnon.

For your animal compagnon, people usually advise deinonychus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#deinonychus) but personnaly i'd rather take an ape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ape.htm) because of reach and better damage output.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You need Druid 3 to qualify (Trackless Step) in addition to 2nd level arcane and divine spells and BAB 4.

Druid 3/Wizard 3 fulfills the spellcasting requirement, but only gets BAB 3.
To qualify at lvl 8, you need another level of either wizard or druid, which costs you another caster level,
or 2 levels of Mystic Theurge, which gimps your AC, your skills and your HP and pushes the AH 1 back to level 9.

With your high Int you could also take Druid 4/Wizard 2/Mindbender 1/AH and get telepathy (and qualify for tasty tasty mindsight :smallbiggrin:) but it would cost a feat for practiced spellcaster:wizard to reach the caster level requirement of Mindbender.

If your Dm allows early entry tricks you still need Druid 4/Wizard 2 to qualify for AH at level 7 (or Druid 4/Wizard 1/Mindbender 1 if you use fractional BAB)

[Arcanist]

Your build is invalide because of the +4 bab required to get into Arcane hierophant.

Why do you take so many level in druid?
As druid can spontaneously cast "summon nature’s ally", you can lose 2 first level spell slots to cast summon nature’s ally 2 while Druid 1 so you only need Druid 2/Wizard 1 before entering Mystic Theurge.

Druid2/Wizard1/MysticTheurge6/Arcane Hierophant 10/MysticTheurge1 is a legal build focused on casting.

Druid4/Wizard2/Arcane Hierophant 10/MysticTheurge4 is a legal build focused on animal compagnon.

For your animal compagnon, people usually advise deinonychus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#deinonychus) but personnaly i'd rather take an ape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ape.htm) because of reach and better damage output.

I really like these builds... I'm curious why you decided to completely dump wild shaping? :smallconfused:

Bamboo Spirit Folk
Druid/1 Wild Shaping Ranger/1 Wizard/1 Mystic Theurge/7 Arcane Hierophant/10

Gotta love Sanctum Spell :smallsmile: Idk... I just feel that at certain levels of Optimization you shouldn't be forced to choose between which 9th level castings do you want...

This build is invalid in this thread I suppose since he specifically request human :smallsigh: Otherwise I would have included a level of Wildrunner... Ah well :smallsigh:

[Cranthis]

I used the fractional BAB method to get the necessary BAB.

[Cranthis]

Sorry, I have been up abit with allergy problems, I should clarify a few things.

1. I used Fractional BAB and it came out to 4 BAB.
2. Early Entry tricks are fine
3. I am focusing on animal companion
4. The two theurgic bonds stack with Companion Familiar (AH) and give me almost full companion and familiar stuff. One more taking of this would let me stack MT in there as well.

[Arcanist]

Sorry, I have been up abit with allergy problems, I should clarify a few things.

1. I used Fractional BAB and it came out to 4 BAB.
2. Early Entry tricks are fine
3. I am focusing on animal companion
4. The two theurgic bonds stack with Companion Familiar (AH) and give me almost full companion and familiar stuff. One more taking of this would let me stack MT in there as well.

My question is if it HAS to be a Human? :smallsigh:

[sleepyphoenixx]

Even with fractional BAB, Druid 3/Wiz 1/MT 2 only gets 3,75 BAB.
I'll assume your DM is ok with it.

The second Theurgic Bond gets you almost nothing, since the Familiar class feature only counts Wizard levels
(so you only get 2 level of Familiar progression for the cost of a feat)

Taking Obtain Familiar instead lets you count all arcane caster levels for Familiar progression and lets Theurgic Bond stack your full arcane CL
on top of your Druid/AH levels for AC progression, also costing one feat and getting you one of the Wizards ACFs.

So, by taking Obtain Familiar instead of a second Theurgic Bond you get:
3 additional levels of Familiar progression (same)
4 additional levels of AC progression (instead of 2)
a Wizard ACF by trading your original familiar
2 levels of AC progression for every level of AH (instead of 2 levels of Familiar progression, making your AC a lot stronger instead of a little smarter)

EDIT:My math sucks. As soon as you hit AH 2, Theurgic Bond x2 pulls ahead of Theurgic Bond/Obtain Familiar.
Disregard the above unless you want a Wizard ACF.
Or take both for an even nastier AC :smallsmile:

For your AC, the Ape is a solid choice with good damage and reach,
the leopard is a bit more fragile but gets pounce, improved grab and rake.
The strongest choice is unquestionably the fleshraker, with pounce/trip/grapple, rake, 4 natural attacks, 3 with poison (venomfire!) and a high natural AC

For AC feats good choices are Combat Reflexes and Stand Still or the Mage Slayer line. Be prepared for your DM to throw books at you.

[Stabbald]

Lost Tradition (Druid casting to Int)


You're done. Unless you want your DM to cry, this is about as optimized as you can get.

[Cranthis]

My question is if it HAS to be a Human? :smallsigh:

Yes. Yes it does. I know the various races I could choose, including the bamboo, but I'm sticking with human.

And yeah, sorry my math derped a little there. I will have to insert another level of MT I suppose.

[Palanan]

Where is Lost Tradition from? Is this third-party or homebrew?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Where is Lost Tradition from? Is this third-party or homebrew?

It's from Bastards & Bloodlines by Green Ronin, so third-party.

[Arcanist]

Where is Lost Tradition from? Is this third-party or homebrew?

It's the feat that literally tells your DM to roll over, spread cheek and insert **** in ****ing ass (filter destroyed comment, but just go see Spartacus: Blood & Sand and I'm sure you'll get the reference...).

[MesiDoomstalker]

What the feat does is let the player choose his main casting stat. To any other stat. So makes SAD Thurges. Or Con based casters. I should really use that for a DMM: Persist Cleric at some point.

[Cranthis]

Yeah, I'm thinking either riding dog with the War Trained Template or ape for animal companion. Familiar doesn't matter in the least for this build, except for the Theurgic Bond feats.