PF Paladin

[Xander96]

What version of the paladin is best? The Divine Hunter? Vanilla Paladin? Mounted Paladin? Some other paladin unmentioned so far?

[Morbis Meh]

What version of the paladin is best? The Divine Hunter? Vanilla Paladin? Mounted Paladin? Some other paladin unmentioned so far?

It really depends on the type you want/prefer best is a relatively subjective term. If you want to make an archer avoid Divine Hunter like the plague, make a halfling use a boar mount and take Oath of Vengeance. It is a good DPS archer build, if you want a sword and board ditch the mount. What are looking looking to acheive? There is a guide for paladins here (https://docs.google.com/View?id=dcrgj6j5_15cf2jkgfh)

[Xander96]

What I would ultimately like to achieve is to be a BA DPS build.

So if you have any ideas on how to attain this. I welcome any and all suggestions. Ty!

[toapat]

What I would ultimately like to achieve is to be a BA DPS build.

So if you have any ideas on how to attain this. I welcome any and all suggestions. Ty!

that kinda doesnt work with PF paladin then. PF may have made the base class called paladin better (at the cost of being a paladin), but they didnt actually improve paladin, or the system, for damage.

[Xander96]

Except for when you fight evil or outsiders, which seems to be quite a bit of the population in monsters in my past experience

[Giegue]

If you don't mind being chaotic evil instead of lawful good, the Anti-Paladin, which is an inverse of the traditional lawful good Paladin swaps the Paladin's healing powers for powers that damage and apply status effects to enemies. Of course, the anti-paladin is basically the total antitheses of the Paladin....but probably better at damage. However, if your not playing in an evil campaign, or at least one in which you expect to regularly fight good-aligned creatures, the anti-paladin loses much of it's novelty since most things you'll be fighting in traditional PF games will almost always be evil.

[toapat]

Except for when you fight evil or outsiders, which seems to be quite a bit of the population in monsters in my past experience

that isnt what i mean.

what i mean is that the balancing itself makes it really difficult, as a result of being PF. You can be effective, but you cant excel in any one field because there are not enough options that the glitches like Ubercharger happen. TWF is still nigh-unusable in PF because of it's required investment.

that linked docs file is pretty much wrong, there is no point at which you want the divine bond to be weapon bound.

[Gnaeus]

What I would ultimately like to achieve is to be a BA DPS build.

So if you have any ideas on how to attain this. I welcome any and all suggestions. Ty!

How much paladin do you need to be a paladin build? Would Paladin 3 (or 4)/Sorcerer 2 (or 1)/Dragon Disciple 10/Paladin +5 count? Weapon/Weapon/Claw/Bite is a pretty solid attack routine for a pally. Blindsense+Blind Fight bonus feat mean you can fight invisible foes well. +4 Strength and Power attack bonus feat mean decent damage. I don't know if this is within what you consider paladin or not.

If you consider that every fighter needs flight and a method of fighting invisibles, and the sorcadin/DD gets those for free, you can use that money on items that + damage

[Xander96]

I don't recall Draconic Disciple being available in PF, but I could be wrong

[Flasaro]

If your dm lets you be a pathfinder equivalent to the gray/grey guard he can smite anything eventually and do damage with his lay on hands like a blackgaurd and you still get to be lawful good :D

[Gnaeus]

I don't recall Draconic Disciple being available in PF, but I could be wrong

You are wrong. Not only is it in the PFSRD, but the PF version is much much better than the 3.5 version. It gives 7/10 sorc progression instead of simply adding spells, and it gives 3 bonus feats from the Draconic bloodline and stacks with draconic bloodline for abilities.

Old: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm
New: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/dragon-disciple

[Xander96]

Thanks! What bloodline feats would you suggest taking?

[Snowbluff]

I can tell what the best archetype. Holy Gun. "Hai guyz, I am a paladin who can't smite without grit. I don't get grit until level 11 unless I dip something (*Gunslinger*!) that doesn't suck at ranged combat like me!"

[Gnaeus]

Thanks! What bloodline feats would you suggest taking?

Power attack and Blind Fight definately. for #3, improved init, or Toughness. Skill Focus Knowledge Arcana only if you want to spend the additional 2 feats for an improved familiar. Quicken spell is good only if you pick a more Sorc heavy build, like Paladin 2/Sorc 3/DD10/Sorc +5

[Xander96]

I can tell what the best archetype. Holy Gun. "Hai guyz, I am a paladin who can't smite without grit. I don't get grit until level 11 unless I dip something (*Gunslinger*!) that doesn't suck at ranged combat like me!"

Uh...I'm confused as to how gunslinger came into the convo...Huh?

[Xander96]

Power attack and Blind Fight definately. for #3, improved init, or Toughness. Skill Focus Knowledge Arcana only if you want to spend the additional 2 feats for an improved familiar. Quicken spell is good only if you pick a more Sorc heavy build, like Paladin 2/Sorc 3/DD10/Sorc +5

I think if I decided to go that route, I would prefer going more of the Paladin route than the Sorc

[Gnaeus]

I figured. But the improved familiar is worth checking out. Having a little angel to follow your paladin around is fun, and if you take ranks in UMD and give it a couple good wands it can be very helpful.

[toapat]

Uh...I'm confused as to how gunslinger came into the convo...Huh?

its a snarktastic response to the OP's question. Holy Gun is a PF paladin Archetype that makes Smite evil kinda useless.

One of the significant paladin problems is, the entire Divine Bond class feature is nigh useless because of WBL (if you dont go TWF), and you dont have things like in 3.5 where the mount can actually become a "viable" (as in puts the rest of the party to shame) combatant.

[Gnaeus]

One of the significant paladin problems is, the entire Divine Bond class feature is nigh useless because of WBL (if you dont go TWF),

Explain. How does WBL make a power that adds additional bonuses to a weapon useless? If anything, it makes the power more useful, because the paladin can spend his money on other stuff than his weapon, while having situational advantages like holy or brilliant when he wants them.

[jmelesky]

I'm with Gnaeus. Adding bonuses is always helpful. I've played the rather extreme version of that philosophy -- a Bladebound Kensai Magus (free magic weapon, can't use armor, spends arcane points to improve weapon), and it freed up a huge amount of wealth to spend on stat boosters and useful utility items.

Weapon boosting is one of the ways Paizo's tried to make melee more viable -- give them bonuses they can choose on-the-fly to help get around various DRs and resistances. That way they have to worry less about carrying around a golf bag full of different situational weapons. Add in the "weapon enhancement bonuses can bypass different DRs" and melee is in a much better spot.

Pure Fighters still have trouble, though.

[toapat]

Explain. How does WBL make a power that adds additional bonuses to a weapon useless? If anything, it makes the power more useful, because the paladin can spend his money on other stuff than his weapon, while having situational advantages like holy or brilliant when he wants them.

except that Holy Sword, basically still the best 4th level paladin spell, cant be used with the bond. and WBL is still comically high by the point where you need a decent number of weapon enhancements in PF.

the best thing in the D20 rules you can get as a paladin at that level is still Dungeonscape's Divine spirit acf because it gives you better party utility, even if with PF LoH it is rediculously broken.

[grarrrg]

I can tell what the best archetype. Holy Gun. "Hai guyz, I am a paladin who can't smite without grit. I don't get grit until level 11 unless I dip something (*Gunslinger*!) that doesn't suck at ranged combat like me!"

:smallsigh:
Holy Guns get Amateur Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/amateur-gunslinger-combat) as a Bonus Feat at first level.

Amateur Gunslinger gives you:

A daily Grit Pool that starts at 1 (you can gain up to your WIS mod though).
It also gives access to the first level Gunslinger Deed of your choice (most likely Quick Clear, as it's VERY nice to have, and does NOT cost Grit).
You also get the ability to regain Grit the ways a Gunslinger normally does, namely, Critical Hits, and dropping an Opponent below 0HP.


I will grant you that Holy Gun does not get its version of Smite until level 2. And, at higher levels, it's annoying as it's a Standard Action > 1 Shot.
BUT
You _DO_ have a pool of 1 Grit, and can REGAIN Grit throughout the day by Killing or Critting.
Smiting Shot gets no bonus to To-Hit, but gets CHA _and_ Level to Damage (double Level vs. normal 'evily things').


What does this all mean?
Well, to start you have, potentially, MANY MANY more uses of 'smite' per day.
And you can easily (but not quickly) mow down HOARDS of Undead:
You spend a Grit to Smite Shot
>the Smite gets a good load of bonus damage
>the Smite likely kills its target
>you Regain a Grit point for killing said target
>Repeat.


Also, it's a relatively low-impact archetype. You don't really trade away all that much. You lose Detect Evil, you trade Smite Evil for Smiting Shot, you must Divine Bond with your Weapon.
That's it.
You keep ALL your Auras, ALL your Lay-on-Hands/Mercies, Divine Grace, Divine Health, etc...

All in all, it is NOT a bad archetype. I would not rank it in, say, the top 4, but it's solid. If you don't mind some Multiclassing with Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger), then it becomes all the better.

[Gnaeus]

except that Holy Sword, basically still the best 4th level paladin spell, cant be used with the bond. and WBL is still comically high by the point where you need a decent number of weapon enhancements in PF.


So, it is useless because it doesn't stack with a spell you do not get until 13th level, and then only once per day. It is useless because that spell makes a +1 weapon +5 holy, when the paladin may instead need Axiomatic to beat DR, or Brilliant Energy to power attack someone with super high AC, or he may already have a +2 Holy Sword, and want to give it an extra attack with "speed", and make it auto-confirm crits with Bless Weapon. Or maybe you think you might need a Restoration or a Break Enchantment instead of Holy Sword that day.

Sorry. I don't buy it.

And WBL is one of the most powerful things in the game. Any effect that lets you save on one item and spend money on other stuff instead is probably strong.

[toapat]

And WBL is one of the most powerful things in the game. Any effect that lets you save on one item and spend money on other stuff instead is probably strong.

ya, soul knife pretty much says you are wrong there. half the spell list of paladin doesnt work with the item bond, its just said to be useful because "oh, it lets us add effects to weapons". except, that it is a horribly slow progression, doesnt give anything that I would consider outside of a Holy Avenger.. THe only time it is actually useful is when the WBL turns completely against a DW build

Also, Axiomatic Sword is also on the paladin spell list, and actually able to be found, unlike in 3.5.

[Gnaeus]

ya, soul knife pretty much says you are wrong there..

It isn't actually a bad feature for the soul knife. If the soul knife had actual other class features, it would be good.


half the spell list of paladin doesnt work with the item bond, its just said to be useful because "oh, it lets us add effects to weapons"
Really? Prove that. I see 49 1st level spells on the SRD + 2nds, 3rds, and 4ths. I see very few (Magic Weapon and Holy Sword) that dont stack with Weapon Bond, and some very nice ones, like bless weapon and Greater Magic Weapon, that do. (and for that matter, I'm not positive on the RAW that Magic Weapon doesn't stack. It might). A level 17 paladin can spend a 4th level spell slot for a +5 holy weapon for under 2 minutes, or he can spend 2 3rds for a +5 weapon and a magic circle vs evil that lasts for HOURS, and then add Holy and Speed with his weapon bond for 17 minutes 4 times a day. Spending a higher level spell slot for a less effective weapon for less time sounds pretty awful to me.

There are even some (like blade of bright victory) that only work on your bonded weapon.

.
except, that it is a horribly slow progression, doesnt give anything that I would consider outside of a Holy Avenger..

If your games never require an extra attack, or a weapon that hits on touch attacks, maybe that works for you. Personally, I think Speed and Brilliant Energy are both awesome, and flaming and merciful and keen are occasionally situationally useful. You might have to fight some neutral bandits or a confused good guy or something.

Brilliant energy is especially good for this. Stupid expensive at +4, makes your weapon useless when fighting some kinds of enemies, but fantastic when it works. I would never buy one unless I had way too much gold, but it is a nice ability to have on call.

.

Also, Axiomatic Sword is also on the paladin spell list, and actually able to be found, unlike in 3.5.

Yeah, but you have to KNOW you are going to need it, and burn a 4th level slot for rounds of use. Better just to have a +5 GMW, and then make it Axiomatic with Divine Bond and also Keen or something else just for grins if it turns out that you need to beat DR/lawful.

And now that you mention it, since it is able to be found, where is it? I dont see it on the PFSRD. Maybe an error.

[Snowbluff]

*Snip*

kk, thanks for clearing that up. It's still crap though. It pretty undoes one of the 2 good things about PF Paladins. Which makes me very sad.

[grarrrg]

kk, thanks for clearing that up. It's still crap though. It pretty undoes one of the 2 good things about PF Paladins. Which makes me very sad.

I think of it as more of a 2-to-4 level dip for a Mysterious Stranger build.
Good Will progression, Divine Grace for CHA-to-All Saves, Lay-on-Hands is nice (specially since 'touching yourself' is only a Swift action).
And for a Dip you'd only get 1, maybe 2 uses of 'regular' Smite anyway, so the Smiting Shot is a decent replacement. The Standard action sucks, but it DOES pierce any/all DR, and against the right target you can get a nice bit of bonus damage, x2 Paladin levels and x2 CHA (once from Smite Shot, once from Mysterious Stranger).

Then again, you can always use Smiting Shot paired with a Scatter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/blunderbuss) Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/culverin-hand-bombard) :smallamused:
You can even fire into Melee this way AND only mildly annoy your party! (as long as your party isn't EVIL anyway...)

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, for a Mysterious Stranger it seems a lot more viable. IN the end that would be more a gunslinger than anything. Now, can you get Favored Deed (or whatever the feat is called, I don't do much PF) for your smite shot? That would be cool.

Now as for scatter shot, it's always a hard time trying to explain to the Rogue and Fighter why they have to dig pellets out of themselves after a fight.

[navar100]

The "best" is always what's most suitable for your character. No matter what class you play you don't need to be the most absolutely powerful character as you can possibly be. There's nothing wrong with playing a powerful character, but you are also not somehow playing stupidly if for whatever reason you are not at the most optimal efficiency possible given the game mechanics of whatever it is you're playing.

Certainly you need to make choices. In terms of game mechanics one particular thing might synergize atrociously in combination with something else. That does not equate to those things being bad on their own or combined with something else. It is possible one particular thing really is a bad idea - not thought out properly, looks good on paper but not in practice, doesn't achieve the effect that was intended, etc. In that sense asking about particulars that really don't work for their own sake, objectively by fact not subjectively by personal opinion, can be helpful. You're still not playing BadWrongFun if you play less than optimal of everything.

[Xander96]

What is WBL?

[Snowbluff]

What is WBL?

Wealth By Level. The presume amount of resource you have at each level.

[toapat]

What is WBL?

Wealth By Level, i cant list off the PF values, but assuming they are remotely near what they are in 3.5, the WBL values are so bad that it is painful early for melee, and a complete joke for the pure spellcasters. It then grows at such a rate that you can reasonably buy any magic item you could find remote use for as a melee, or just research the 9th level spell "Deus Ex Machina" for any of the primary casters and put it on an infinite use slotless magic item, with a free action trigger.

[jmelesky]

PF WBL is available on the srd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement). And I've never had any problem spending all of it and having plans for more, regardless of whether I'm playing melee or a caster.

[toapat]

PF WBL is available on the srd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement). And I've never had any problem spending all of it and having plans for more, regardless of whether I'm playing melee or a caster.

A: that isnt the PFSRD, and it massively irritates me when people link to that site claiming it to be. That is a third party archive of published Pathfinder material.

B: ok, that is 11% more then 3.5 WBL. Spending that, if the item costs are similar, is going to be alot harder, considering that actually going for a +10 item most of the time is not the desireable choice.

[jmelesky]

A: that isnt the PFSRD, and it massively irritates me when people link to that site claiming it to be. That is a third party archive of published Pathfinder material.

It's the community SRD. It's better organized, more up-to-date, and more complete than the Paizo PRD. You can double-check the relevant page at the official PRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html) if you'd like.


B: ok, that is 11% more then 3.5 WBL. Spending that, if the item costs are similar, is going to be alot harder, considering that actually going for a +10 item most of the time is not the desireable choice.

I still haven't had any problem spending my entire WBL. I haven't managed any actual level 20 play, but up through 17 I've always had plans on what to spend on next.

[grarrrg]

A: that isnt the PFSRD, and it massively irritates me when people link to that site claiming it to be. That is a third party archive of published Pathfinder material.

Given that the web address is www.d20PFSRD.com
I'm sure you can understand the confusion potential.
:smalltongue:

[Dayaz]

Yeesh, such op-raging in this thread O.o

Anyways, not too long ago I had a pretty fun time with the Warrior of the Holy Light archetype. It gives up spell casting for some pretty fun dps tricks (What's not to love about being able to heal yourself to do more damage? Not much more, but it helps everyone)

We were playing pretty low level, about 7-9 I think, and with a feat that lets you use LoH from a distance not only was I the front-line melee bruiser with my Greatsword, I was also getting to be the off healer/buffer. With the Divine Bond to my weapon, I was crit-ing pretty often with the spontaneous Keen, and with the Vital Stike+Smite+a crit, I got 97 damage and one shotted a boss my DM was going to make into trouble with it having a buffer and healer with it (too bad for them I won Init muwahahaha)