Optimizing vs MinMaxing vs Munchkinry

[Myrddin0001]

I've been having this discussion at various points with my DM and with my players if I am the DM. We can't seem to come to an agreement on the definition of those above terms. I believe in researching and highly optimizing a character class/classes for its true intended pour purpose and party role and building a generous amount of characterizing backstory to facilitate the said character build. They say no that is flat out Munchy and some say it is only general MinMaxing. I think that MinMaxing is using a class/classes/feats to achieve a character that is generally powerful and mostly its intended role with little character fluff. whereas I see Munchkinry as the nonsensical combo of feats/class options and rule lawyering that all stack with the intention to be deliberately overpowered and to create and outlandish character with no fluff or role play quality. was curious about what other people's definition of the said terms are? :smallsmile:

[2xMachina]

For me
Optimizing: Getting the most of what you want
MinMaxing: Getting maximum of the thing you want by sacrificing everything else.
Munchkinry: Actual cheating. eg. RAW doesn't work that way, and they know it, but still use it anyway, and claim it's true. The dice did not show 20. The dice is loaded. Peeking at the DM notes

EDIT: I generally don't take roleplaying to judge the categories. You can create a full fledged character with an extensive background such as fav foods, places, friends, acquaintances, habits, tics, and still be a munchkin by cheating.

[Gavinfoxx]

Minimax, in statistics and decision theory, is minimizing the maximum loss, or maximizing the minimum gain. That would be focusing on a character that is hard to bring catastrophe to...

[ArcaneGlyph]

Optimizing: I look at this as a skill monkey thing.. like an optimized jumper or optimized dispeller. They pick one focus and make it their goal to max it out.

MinMaxing: Getting the most out of your stats and classes, maybe sacraficing a little RP, but not much.

Munchkin: RP, what's RP? oh right, well my character has a split personality and simultaneously grew up in 7 regions on 7 continents with 7 masters of different character classes, he qualifies for all feats and spells.
Generally they are trying to be the best at everything and marginalize an entire party of characters and all encounters.

[Piggy Knowles]

When I do it, it's optimizing. When others do it, they're munchkins.

Seriously, though, I don't really see a difference between optimizing and min/maxing. They both mean you're making choices to be better at what you do. Which is how it should be - you're a hero, after all!

Munchkin to me implies being willing to bend the rules, though - willfully ignoring stacking rules, trying to "spring" tricks on the DM so they can't veto it, forgetting to include penalties, that sort of thing.

[ThiagoMartell]

When I do it, it's optimizing. When others do it, they're munchkins.
Priceless and sigworthy. :smallwink:

[INoKnowNames]

For me
Optimizing: Getting the most of what you want
MinMaxing: Getting maximum of the thing you want by sacrificing everything else.
Munchkinry: Actual cheating. eg. RAW doesn't work that way, and they know it, but still use it anyway, and claim it's true. The dice did not show 20. The dice is loaded. Peeking at the DM notes

EDIT: I generally don't take roleplaying to judge the categories. You can create a full fledged character with an extensive background such as fav foods, places, friends, acquaintances, habits, tics, and still be a munchkin by cheating.

2xMachina's got a pretty good set of definitions and, as far as I know and learned, at least, is right on all counts.

One can Roleplay and still Rollplay. Don't ever assume just because someone's working on squeezing every single point of power out of a build that the character playing that build doesn't have as much soul and heart as one randomly or casually thrown together. I rather hate that argument myself.

Optimizing vs MinMaxing might vary a bit from table to table, but Min-Maxing is usually a bit more than Optimizing, from what I've known, anyway.

And either way, both terms are more favorable than Munchkinry, which is outright cheating, which is dishonorable no matter what is going on at the table.

Nothing wrong with an Optimizer or a MinMaxer, so long as they can still get along with the general power level of the group, and so long as everyone's stories still check out. It's possible to have lots of seemingly random dips built into an impressively built character that can be just as fleshed out as anyone elses.

But a Munchkin deserves to be shot. No matter what his character might be like, cheating is wrong.

[Flickerdart]

This is a bit of a can of worms...

Optimizing: Achieving mechanical effectiveness in the scope of your concept. If your concept is an unarmed combatant, choosing Swordsage over Monk is optimizing. Optimizers tend to hold to RAI.

MinMaxing: Achieving the greatest possible mechanical effectiveness in the scope of a single ability, at any cost. If your concept is a spellcaster, you made a Wizard with 4 Strength, Wisdom and Charisma that bans all the crappy schools. Diminishing returns mean nothing to a minmaxer. Minmaxers tend to hold to RAW. Most TO will fall in this category.

Powergaming: Here's one you forgot. It sits in somewhat nebulous relation to the above two, because a powergamer is interested in the best build possible and doesn't care about concept, and so will not be so eager to create weaknesses. Powergamers almost exclusively hold to RAW.

Munchkinry: Cheating. Munchkins will often hold mutually conflicting opinions on RAW in order to pull off whatever they want to do. Amusingly, these people often don't actually know the game very well, and what they want to do is oftentimes done better through a legal channel.

[Hunter Noventa]

Optimization: Picking a concept, whether it be an RP concept or a mechanical one, and making it as effective as possible, without major sacrificing.

Min-maxing: As optimization, but while making every absolute sacrifice.

Munchkining: Choosing a purely mechanical goal, and reaching it with no regards for RP or other players, sacrifcing everything that isn't part of said goal. Possibly utilizing rules loopholes without actually breaking rules.

if you start breaking rules you're just a cheater.

[Threadnaught]

It's a fine line that few people agree on, the topic to this thread is basically Optimizing vs Optimizing vs Extreme Optimization, just so you know why it's hard to get everyone to agree with a list of what's overpowered.

Optimizing is to make your character as good as you want it to be.

MinMaxing is the most common form of optimizing, minimize the weaknesses or effect of those weaknesses and maximize all strengths.

Munchkins take these to the extreme and just want to win at D&D. I believe I have one in my group, I keep him restrained eitherway, best thing to do really.

[Menteith]

This is how I typically see these concepts used, though this certainly isn't the only way they can be used.

Optimization is making the "best" possible character, with an undefined best. Typically, I see it as making a build and backstory which can best represent the character I have envisioned. The most optimal character isn't the most powerful character, and both crunch and fluff is important in making an optimal character.

Min/Maxing (AKA Powergaming) is optimization with regard to power. It is concerned with eliminating mechanical weaknesses and maximizing mechanical power. The most min/maxed character is the most powerful, legal, build possible. Mechanical strength is the primary concern.

Munchkinry (AKA Being an ass) is abusing the system for an individuals own benefit. Whether failing to record damage taken, lying about dice rolls, or exploiting a poorly written/ambiguous rule, a Munchkin seeks to "win" or accomplish a goal without regard to the rules of the game.

[dascarletm]

Here is my take

Optimizing: Choosing character choices and features that have good synergy, and are, well, optimal choices.

Min/Maxing: Focusing on a certain roll, aspect, or ability and sacrificing non-needed features for the sake of said ability, aspect, or roll. Example: Barbarian dumping charisma hard to get a high strength score.

Munchkin: Go home player you're drunk. *See Flickerdart*

[Clistenes]

Optimization: The character is powerful on his/her own right, and an useful member of the party. He/she could survive alone for some time; maybe not beat on his own a solo adventure, but he would survive long enough if separated from his party.

Minimaxing: The character is quite more powerful than you would expect from his class and level, and, for some classes, quite more powerful than any other member of the party, but on the other hand, if he/she were left alone he/she would probably be unable to function in society or even survive alone; he/she may be so stupid that can't barely speak, so unwise that anybody can fool him/she and steal his money, has such a low charisma that couldn't communicate his intentions and everybody would instantly hate or despise him/her, has such a low strength that is encumbered by his/her own clothes and needs help to be put on his/her feet every morning, or such a low dexterity that he/she can't open a bottle on his/her own.

Munchking: No need for any other member in the party; the character is overwhelming and a lot more powerful than should be given his/her level; it is the best at everything or so good at a single thing that foes and challenges of a level appropiate for the party haven't a chance against him/her. The DM has a hard time finding challenges the character isn't good against but the other members of the party could survive and beat with their own talents. Solar Exalted.

[eggs]

Here: Optimizing is used as a blanket term for "doing things that don't make your character worse." The other terms mean "cheating, deceiving and probably biting puppies as you walk down the street," and only serve make people upset.

Elsewhere: They're all the same thing.