View Full Version : Conceptually Removing Combat Roles from Classes [3.5, APFYT]

2012-11-02, 02:48 PM
Alright, this is just a simple, quick idea:

What if you divorced the different "in combat" roles of various martial classes from the class itself, offering that kind of archetype as a part and package of BAB, while at the same time adding in stuff to make them more useful out of battle.

So the Barbarian would gain a lot of the stuff a Ranger has, while losing Rage (maybe just giving a boost if you use the Rage combat options); a Rogue's class features would be a lot more focused on skills (so they might get rerolls and such), while a Paladin might get more abilities to track down the root of evil and to root out evil influences, and boosts to the Smite and Mounted combat options.

2012-11-03, 09:38 PM
Seems a good idea for the most part, although some combat roles should probably stay. For instance, it makes sense that the rogue's going to be focusing on hitting enemies that can't defend themselves properly (though that need not be exclusive to the rogue), and the monk probably should at least keep WIS to AC. Barbarian probably should stay with rage (as "vikings" is one of the classic images of barbarians), but allowing other barbarian-ish styles (such as light cavalry (think Mongols)) as ACFs is probably a good idea.

And how much of the class's overall role is combat should also stay for the most part, although a few might be able to use modifications (I'd say the ranger, cleric, and druid could all do with a combat depowerment, the ranger in exchange for more skill-based features, the druid probably doesn't need compensation, and the cleric in exchange for a more deity-dependent bonus which could be restoration to the 3.5 combat capability for clerics of war gods.)

2012-11-03, 10:21 PM
My idea is basically that each "combat" class should get a class feature every few levels that let's them pick some abilities, which each scale by BAB.

Then, for example, a Rogue's Sneak Attack could be a boost to any one of these benefits that require an attack that's used on a flat-footed creature.

Basically, I'm trying to figure out a way to make Combat Techniques (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7688)interact with Associated Classes in a different way than "can only progress up to this rank without having enough levels in your associated classes."

2012-11-03, 11:58 PM
Okay I just have to ask, what is APYTF?

2012-11-04, 12:49 AM
It stands for "A Penny For Your Thoughts."

2012-11-04, 12:50 AM
Basically, I'm trying to figure out a way to make Combat Techniques (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7688)interact with Associated Classes in a different way than "can only progress up to this rank without having enough levels in your associated classes."

There's a lot more to the combat role of a class than just combat techniques.

However, if you do want to make certain combat techniques be associated with certain classes, how's this for an idea:
The chart of combat techniques and advancement given there is not used. Instead, combat techniques advance as follows: For each level you get in a full BAB class with at least one associated technique (fighter is considered to be associated with all techniques), you get four technique points to distribute among one or more associated techniques of your choice. You also get four bonus technique points at first level, which can be assigned to any technique. Once you have eight technique points in a particular technique, you know it. 3/4 BAB classes with associated techniques work similarly, but you only get 3 points per level (but still four bonus at first level.)
Once you know a technique, your benefit depends on your BAB, but you (for that purpose) subtract one from your BAB for every four levels in classes that are not associated with that technique. If the resulting BAB is less than 5, you get least mastery; at 5, you get lesser mastery, at 10 you get greater mastery, and at 15 you get true mastery. Consider making an even higher level for 20 (i.e. a level 20 character where every level is in a full BAB class associated with that technique.)

2012-11-04, 01:41 AM
I know they shouldn't be the full combat schticks of a given character; however, since they actually can cover every single combat-ish schtick of more classes, other than damage...

An example of what I'm thinking about:

Sneak Attack gives you a number of (effective) Attacks of Opportunity equal to the number of SA dice you have normally to spread around any Combat Techniques you add to an attack directed to a flat-footed or flanked creature that isn't immune to precision damage, and can add any Ambush feats that you might have to your attack by spending a number of attacks of opportunity equal to the number of dice you would normally need to trade away.

So Rogues would retain that classic "I stab you in the back" feel, but they wouldn't just need to deal damage; they could use that to cripple someone, blind them, screw 'em over, and generally be pretty swell guys.

I kinda like the alternative scheme you are suggesting; however, I have a general aversion to point-based progressions for whatever reason, so I'm not sure I'll go with it. I might actually go the path of

"You have a number of them equal to 1/2 your BAB, and get 2 at first level if it was a full BAB class, and 1 if it was a 3/4 BAB class."

Or even go the path of Unearthed Arcana, and offer them as Proficiencies (ah, 2nd Edition, is that you I see on the horizon?), along with proficiencies in Weapon Groups.

So I can be proficient in Dash, or Interpose, or Optimize, or whatever, with some sort of system where you gain more proficiencies over time equal to your level. This naturally aids fighting classes, since they have a much larger number of groups that they are proficient in.

Then, I could make it so that you gained a new proficiency slot at each level that you attain an odd BAB total or increase the number of attacks you can make, and that you can "invest" extra proficiency slots into a Combat Technique to make it hit the next tier (but you are limited to investing a number of tiers into a Combat Technique equal to the number of attacks you get from BAB, so a 6th level Fighter could grab the second level of Interpose, for example.)

Hell, I could make it that you can gain them in the place of a proficiency slot, and have you get them at every odd BAB, and have them still scale the same; Fighters get 4 free slots, other fighting classes get 3 free slots, less fight-y classes tend to get 2 (**** it, the Monk DOES NOT get 1 free slot. I'm rewriting that...), and classes like the Wizard don't get any free slots.

Fighters then end up being good at fightin' because they simply have the broadest ability to fight things.

I'm also wracking my brain for a prerequisite to get more supernatural Combat Techniques; I kinda want to make some Elemental Combat Techniques (maybe have it just require the proper elemental subtype?), so that you could have any creature with the Earth subtype get Earth Mastery.

Actually, doing a couple restricted by subtype would be a pretty good idea; [shapechanger] and [swarm] sound pretty neat... (Greater on [swarm] gives you the ability to treat your "swarm attack" as if it were an actual attack. Actually, might want to make that the True Mastery...)