Mini Paladin/cleric

[DraxDauragon]

Thinking of making a Halfling paladin6/Cleric14

Equipment: on mount using two small lances (one per hand) on foot would be using spear and perhaps buckler and throwing javelins as his projectile; armor would either be medium or heavy (thinking medium).

Feats: Extra turning, mounted combat, power atk, ride-by atk, spirited charge, trample, and toughness.

This is going to be a good character so no evil deities and has to be some sort of good so the domains are up in the air as well. the main focus is to be on his mount charging with the lances.

How's it sound, any tips?

[eggs]

There is way too much paladin in that thing. Using sources outside the PHB, Prestige Paladin and Ordained Champion can cover the same concept better, and with 4 fewer caster levels lost. Sticking to the PHB, there's very little Paladin 6/Cleric X can do that Paladin 2/Cleric X or straight cleric wouldn't do better.

Toughness is a very bad feat, and Trample is very situational. Something like Quicken Spell or Combat Reflexes would go much further.

And two-weapon fighting on a charger without Pounce or TWF? :smallyuk: (Especially if also relying on strength for damage)

[DraxDauragon]

@eggs

Well the idea of being too much paladin is because i would like to use the halfling and a dire badger for tunneling purposes (forgot to mention that sorry); The idea is to never leave the mount something kinda paladin.

I thought that it would be worse than an average cleric just wasn't sure. So the only other directional idea i have for it is Pal/ranger that way i could pursue twc tree. I only have the phb but i shall go and look into pounce now, my dm may allow rules from other books but i'm sure he would like to keep it to the phb and dmg... And by following paladin6/ranger14 it would mean to take up light armor, which wouldn't be a problem.

So the new feat sheet would look like: Endurance (Free), Track (free), TWF (free), Improved TWF(free), Greater twf(free), Mounted combat, Spirited charge, Trample, Two wep defense, Combat reflexes, ride by attack, and die hard.

[DraxDauragon]

I would consider doing ranger11/paladin9 but i feel it would take too long to get the mount, (the reason for the class).

Would i be better off doing pal 6/ranger11 then go back to paladin for 3 levels for more paladin spells, except the paladin restriction would force the char to get atonement. I suppose for the spells its more of an imo per person, but either way whats your input? More ranger spells or more paladin spells, knowing that more paladin spells slows down the twf growth, in which case would use only one weapon and shield.

[DraxDauragon]

how does leveling up as ranger until lvl 2 then paladin to level 7 then back to ranger for 11 more levels? that way the most basic twf feat is there while the paladin is leveling up?

[Rejakor]

Um.

What optimization level does your game play at?

Because you can get everything you're getting from paladin with a 2 level dip OR if you have unearthed arcana a couple of levels in the Prestige Paladin class. There are some cleric prestige classes that grant a mount (like Bone Knight), and if you want to be mount-focused, druid + paladin + HALFLING OUTRIDER supercharges your mount into a godlike warbeast.

[eggs]

It looks like you're new at this, so instead of just throwing suggestions at you, I'm going to try to explain the reasoning behind suggestions. So sorry if this post gets out of hand; I'll put a short-form summary at the end.

In broad strokes, 3e allows a huge amount of flexibility in the options provided by its multiclassing system, but most of them are very bad. This is both because the classes that build up to the multiclassed character aren't all built equal (eg. the Wizard's level 17 class features include building new planes of existence, summoning the generals of angelic armies and auto-killing everything in sight; the Fighter's level 19 class feature is +1 attack) and because some classes don't combine well (Paladin 9/Ranger 11 is a good example - they require very different stats, favor very different fighting styles, and replace the other class's best high-level abilities like Death Ward or Freedom of Movement with their own crappy low-level abilities like animal companions and mounts undeveloped enough not to have a change against breath weapons or fireballs).

Generally speaking, class features for casters (ie. spells) get better faster than class features for noncasters (the best example are the Fighter's feats, which in the PHB never become more powerful than the options available at level 1), while the first level or two of a noncasting class yields most of its class features (look at how frontloaded the Paladin is, or how insignificant most of the the Monk level 3-20 features are). So good core builds usually look something like Cleric 7/Thaumaturgist 5/Loremaster 8 (sticking to progression of one powerful ability like Cleric casting without shifting levels elsewhere), Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Monk 2/Horizon Walker 7/Shadowdancer 1/Blackguard 7 (dipping heavily into non-casters for abilities to stack on top of one another) or Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Archmage 2 (mixing both principles by dipping into a noncaster class while focusing most of the build on a single caster progression).

In this case, it sounds like you want two things: Two-weapon fighting and a badger mount. And probably a third, which is not playing too weak of a character. Getting two-weapon fighting is easy, but it raises another problem: the fighting mechanics are not friendly to melee characters - especially two-weapon fighters.

The main problem with two weapon fighting is that any round your character has to move, TWF doesn't work. And that's normally pretty close to half of every round. There are secondary problems relating to attack bonuses, strength multipliers, DR and power attack, but "not being able to do anything useful with standard actions" is the big one. Another is the steep feat cost, where TWF demands a series of feats that only get weaker and weaker as the penalties associated with whichever iterative attack it is stack up (TWF itself is an attack at a -2 penalty: something you can be reasonably confident will land; GTWF is an attack at a -12 penalty: that's not increasing your damage output by much). Especially on a charger, taking one weapon, boosting strength and power attacking is usually more efficient.

And the last concept is related to the first: namely that not every class offers equivalent tools. The Paladin's mount, for instance, gets up to a 11 HD Dire Badger at Paladin level 16; the Cleric's Planar Ally spells can get an 18 HD Half-Celestial Awakened Dire Badger Ranger mount one level earlier, for more skills, higher attack and better Spell-like abilities. The classes with the best tools tend to be the full spellcasters, which is why favoring their progressions is a high priority.

So to put those ideas together into practice, you'll do best by favoring extended stays in a casting class (Cleric and Druid are the easiest), only poking into other progressions to make a surgical strike at a key class feature (maybe the Paladin's divine grace or Fighter for a feat and proficiencies), and using the either favored class's features to provide yourself with a mount (like the Druid's companion or Summoned/Dominated/Planar Allied mounts of whatever sort) or a feat like Leadership (yeah, the feat can be cheesy, but using it to pick a mount that won't die to the first fireball thrown its way is a pretty reasonable use).

Shortform: Cleric 5/Fighter 1/Cleric X is much better as a mounted charger (Fighter for Ride skill and the feat to pull off Spirited Charge and Leadershipped mount at level 6).

[toapat]

Paladin 9/Ranger 11 is a good example - they require very different stats, favor very different fighting styles, and replace the other class's best high-level abilities like Death Ward or Freedom of Movement with their own crappy low-level abilities like animal companions and mounts undeveloped enough not to have a change against breath weapons or fireballs.

id argue that you could make a passable archer character with that combo if you have access to Dragon 306/compendium, Compete Adventurer, Races of the Wild, and web content for Hank's Longbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). you have a Paladin lvl of 20 and a druid level of 14 for the mount. (paladin counts fully, ranger counts half)

TWF no matter what is out of the question for Paladin.

[Glimbur]

You could take the Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat to get a badger without spending class levels on it. Then you can be all cleric all day, or cleric with prestige classes.

[Rejakor]

Well, Core makes it a bit harder.

But Paladin 2/Druid 18 would give you a hardcore badger (if the DM allows you to advance it according to the rules in the monster manual as you level up to 7 and whatever so you end up with a Dire Badger) as well as detect evil and whatnot.

Otherwise, in freakin' Core, I don't really know where to go to help you out. Your special mount ability suffers unless you stay in Paladin, in core (outside core there are ways around this). So if you are using a special mount as your main idea, then you're basically stuck advancing paladin.

Cleric gets great buffs in core. It can reasonably early (level 7) get a celestial badger to serve it. So straight cleric might be an idea.

Otherwise I have no real idea how to help you. Are you sure you can't use stuff outside core? Like I said, the Halfling Outrider class is basically built entirely for what you are talking about.

[eggs]

TWF no matter what is out of the question for Paladin.
Bardadin! :smalltongue:

(But @OP, that particular suggestion is out of the question with these sources)

[toapat]

Bardadin! :smalltongue:

Bardadin uses a greatsword

without a homebrewed smite that doesnt blow, or pathfinder's Mark, paladins actively discourage using dualwield. ACFs though can make a paladin useful at ranged combat

[eggs]

Bardadin uses a greatsword
Bard 1/Warblade 1/Paladin 18 [Harmonious Knight 6, 9]
Feats: Dragonfire Inspiration (1), Travel Devotion (Human), Two Weapon Fighting (Flaw), Wild Cohort (Flaw), Devoted Performer (3), Song of the White Raven (6), Song of the Heart (9), Snowflake Wardance (12), Words of Creation (15), From Smite to Song (18)
Relevant Gear: Badge of Valor, Vest of Legends, Masterwork Lute, Harmonic Feycraft weapons (and let's say Least Returning augment crystals), Slippers of Battledancing, Gloves of the Balanced Hand and some ToB Maneuver items just to round things out.

Spend the first round buffing the party/mount/cohort (swift Bard DFI+standard Paladin IC+immediate Badge of Valor), the second round full attacking from the mount's back, and subsequent rounds Travel Devotioning around with +10+Cha attack/+10+6d6+Cha damage per hit.

Totally viable.