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Lord Vukodlak
2012-11-02, 04:47 PM
This creature started from a very simple idea. Something that was natural invisible because is true appearance was just that insane. Thus to if you truly saw the creature you had to make a will save or be driven mad. From there I focused on just making it kinda weird.

Bandersnatch
Large Aberration
Hit Dice: 12d8+60 (114 hp)
Initiative: +7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 50 ft., Fly 30 ft. (poor), Swim 40 ft., Climb 30 ft., Burrow 20 ft.
Armor Class: 28 (+3 Dex, -1 size, +16 natural), Flat-footed 25, Touch 12.
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+19
Attack: Bite +14 melee (1d8+6)
Full Attack: 2 bites +14 melee (1d8+6) and claw +12 melee (1d6+3) and wing +12 melee (1d6+3) and 2 tail slaps +12 melee (1d10+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tail slaps)
Special Attacks: Rend
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft. fast healing 5, horrific appearance, low-light vision, natural invisibility, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, fire 10, see invisibility, scent.
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +9
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 17, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 12
Skills: Climb+24, Hide+14*, Spot+11, Swim+24, Track+16
Feats: Multiattack, Improved Initiative, Hover, Run, Track
Environment: Anywhere and nowhere but usually temperate or cold forests
Organization: Solitary or gang (3-5)
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure:Half Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil.
*Its natural invisibility gives it a +20 bonus to hide checks while moving and +40 to hide while standing still so long as the invisibility still applies, making its hide check +34 and +54 respectively.

This beast defies description for the mere sight of it can drive one mad. Thankfully or perhaps unfortunately your mind rejects its existence rendering it invisible to your eyes. Should you overcome this defense and gaze upon its form without losing your sanity you will see a misshapen beast vaguly humanoid with hungry mouths, tails, fins, feet and a wing. It runs, it swims, it flies and burrows beneath the ground though how it accomplishes these things is beyond mortal comprehension.

An arrogant hunter the Bandersnatch prowls the land in search of prey. It is said they hunt not for food but for sport, once they pick a target they've been known to track them for days terrorizing them until they collapse from exhaustion. Other times they simply burst into a clearing where a small group has made camp.

Rend (Ex): If this creature hits with both bite attacks, it latches onto the opponent's body, tearing the flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional 2d8+9 points of damage.

Natural Invisibility (Su): The appearance of the Bandersnatch is so horrific that creatures simply refuse to see it, rendering it invisible at all times, even when attacking. This ability is inherent and not subject to the invisibility purge spell.

Maddening Appearance (Su): The true visage of the bandersnatch is so horrific, the mere sight of it is enough to drive other creatures insane. All creatures (except those immune to mind-affecting effects and other bandersnatches) that view the bandersnatch’s true appearance, such as with true seeing or see invisibility, must make a Will save (DC 20) or be driven insane for as long as they can see the bandersnatch and for 1d4 rounds thereafter. Creatures that successfully save against it cannot be affected again by the same bandersnatch’s deranging appearance for 24 hours. Deranging appearance is a mind-affecting effect. The DC is charisma-based and includes a +3 Racial bonus.

See Invisibility (Su): Bandersnatches have a continuous ability to see invisible creatures as per the spell see invisibility.(caster level 12th)

Tanuki Tales
2012-11-02, 05:11 PM
Why did you give it a wing attack and a fly speed? The Bandersnatch was never described as being something not bound to the ground.

Lord Vukodlak
2012-11-02, 05:22 PM
Why did you give it a wing attack and a fly speed? The Bandersnatch was never described as being something not bound to the ground.

1: The name Bandersnatch is simply an homage, its not ment to actually be based on the creature. Would you feel better if I called it the Jabber'Snatch. Or Maybe just the What The **** is That

2: Nothing says it is bound to the ground.

3: The attack scheme is designed to convey how bizare the creature must appear.

4: And most importantly, Why not?

Tanuki Tales
2012-11-02, 05:34 PM
1: The name Bandersnatch is simply an homage, its not ment to actually be based on the creature. Would you feel better if I called it the Jabber'Snatch. Or Maybe just the What The **** is That

2: Nothing says it is bound to the ground.

3: The attack scheme is designed to convey how bizare the creature must appear.

4: And most importantly, Why not?

Is that attitude honestly necessary? :smallconfused:

TuggyNE
2012-11-02, 07:12 PM
Attack: 2 bites +15 melee (1d8+6)

Without some special ability to allow it to make more than one attack as a standard action, this doesn't work.


Full Attack: 2 bites +15 melee (1d8+6), 1 claw +13 melee (1d6+3), 1 wing (1d6+3) and two tail slaps +13 melee (1d10+3)

It can be assumed that the wing's attack bonus is +13, but putting that in anyway is probably a good idea.


Face/Reach: 10ft/10ft(20ft with tail slaps)

That's Space/Reach. :smalltongue:


Special Attacks: Improved grab, natural invisibility, Horrific Appearance
Special Qualities: low-light vision, dark-vision 30ft, Fast Healing 5, See Invisibility, Fire/Cold/Acid Resistance 10.

Any particular reason not to give it standard aberration 60' darkvision?
Also, natural invisibility and horrific appearance are SQ, not SA.


Saves: Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +7

Fort is off by one, as is Ref, and Will is off by two: +4 HD (poor save) + 5 Con = +9; +4 HD (poor save) + 3 Dex = +7; +2 + 6 HD (good save) + 1 Wis = +9 Will.


Challenge Rating: 11

My usual practice of using The Vorpal Tribble's CR estimator follows (:smallwink:). #1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
(4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD.)
114/5.5 = 20.72727
#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.
28 = 3.6
#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if its got a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).
1
#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.
9
#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.
0
#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.
34.32727/3 = 11.5

Close enough.

Lord Vukodlak
2012-11-02, 07:27 PM
Is that attitude honestly necessary? :smallconfused:
No attitude was intended, I'm sorry if I offended you.


It can be assumed that the wing's attack bonus is +13, but putting that in anyway is probably a good idea.
Missed that thanks.

Any particular reason not to give it standard aberration 60' darkvision? I only remembered aberations having dark vision so I slapped down 30ft because it sounded right.


My usual practice of using The Vorpal Tribble's CR estimator follows (:smallwink:). #1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
(4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD.)
114/5.5 = 20.72727
#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.
28 = 3.6
#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if its got a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).
1
#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.
9
#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.
0
#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.
34.32727/3 = 11.5

Close enough.
I'll see about adding something to push it to an even 12. I thought about its wing inflicting some kind of wisdom damaging poison. Why the wing because its the least likely appendage.

TuggyNE
2012-11-02, 07:45 PM
It does if it has more then one mouth, you'll notice it attacks with only One claw and one wing rather then two each. The attack scheme is designed to convey is bizare appearance in a way words never could.

That's not automatic; you only get multiple attacks as a standard action with special abilities. For example, the lion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lion.htm) is listed as "Attack: Claw +7 melee (1d4+5); Full Attack: 2 claws +7 melee (1d4+5) and bite +2 melee (1d8+2)", despite having both Pounce and Rake. Contrast the hydra, which has a custom version of Combat Reflexes to allow it to attack with all heads on a standard action/AoO.


I'll see about adding something to push it to an even 12. I thought about its wing inflicting some kind of wisdom damaging poison. Why the wing because its the least likely appendage.

Honestly, you don't need to add anything to it; the CR estimator seldom ends up precisely on a whole number.

Lord Vukodlak
2012-11-02, 07:52 PM
That's not automatic; you only get multiple attacks as a standard action with special abilities.
I actually misunderstood your meaning I thought you were talking about having multiple bites in general, it having two bites in the Attack line was a typo.

Debihuman
2012-11-03, 06:32 AM
This creature started from a very simple idea. Something that was natural invisible because is true appearance was just that insane. Thus to if you truly saw the creature you had to make a will save or be driven mad. From there I focused on just making it kinda weird.

Bandersnatch
Large Aberration
Hit Dice: 12d8+60 (114 hp)
Initiative: +7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 50 ft., Fly 30 ft. (poor), Swim 40 ft., Climb 30 ft., Burrow 20 ft.
Armor Class: 28 (+3 Dex, -1 size, +16 natural), Flat-footed 25, Touch 12.
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+19
Attack: Bite +14 melee (1d8+6)
Full Attack: 2 bites +14 melee (1d8+6) and claw +12 melee (1d6+3) and wing buffet +12 melee (1d6+3) and 2 tail slaps +12 melee (1d10+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tail slaps)
Special Attacks: Rend
Special Qualities: Darkvision 30 ft. , fast healing 5, horrific appearance, low-light vision, natural invisibility, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, fire 10, see invisibility
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +9
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 17, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 12
Skills: Pending.
Feats: Multiattack, Improved Natural Attack(bite), Improved Initiative, Hover, Run
Environment:
Organization:
Challenge Rating: 11
Alignment: Always chaotic evil.

Rend (Ex): If this creature hits with both bite attacks, it latches onto the opponent's body, tearing the flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional 2d8+9 points of damage.

Natural Invisibility (Su): The appearance of the Bandersnatch is so horrific that creatures simply refuse to see it, rendering it invisible at all times, even when attacking. This ability is inherent and not subject to the invisibility purge spell.

Horrific Appearance (Su): The true visage of the Bandersnatch is so horrific the mere sight of it is enough to drive other people insane. Anyone who views the Bandersnatch’s true appearance (other then their own kind) such as with true seeing or see invisibility must make a Will save (DC 17) or be driven insane for as long as they can see the creature and for 1d4 rounds thereafter. The DC is Charisma- based.

Actually there are very few issues. I cleaned it up a bit for you. I know I added spaces where British English doesn't, but it wasn't wrong just easier to read.

Overall you did a darned good job. I'm not sure how it has 2 mouths and only flies with one wing, but that's where you need to add description. The DM needs to know this even if the PCs do not.

If it actually has two claws and uses them in tandem as a single attack that would be a Claw attack (1 claw makes it sound like it only has one limb); 1 Wing makes it sound like it only has one wing. If it uses both wings in a wing buffet attack it would be Wing Buffet. It can use more than one limb to make a single attack but you need to describe it as such somewhere.

A few errors crept in. First, you forgot the size penalty to attack lines so I went ahead and fixed it. Also fixed the line to add the "and" and to make it consistent. It's a wing buffet in an attack.

Second, Improved Natural Attack feat is never a good feat for an initial monster; it's only good if you are advancing a monster since you can assign any number you wish. I crossed it out. I recommend you add Improved Critical or something along those lines.

Third, Supernatural abilities are ALWAYS charisma-based. Only Extraordinary abilities can use any ability modifier.

Fourth, 3.5. stat block is missing a few things so I added Environment and Organization. It uses Space/Reach not Face/Reach. Facing went the way of the dodo in 3.5. Special abilities are always alphabetized.

With Int 14, it should have 2 bonus languages plus its automatic languages. Presumably, it can understand those languages even if it cannot speak. If it is too stupid to do that, you might want to consider lowering its Intelligence.

Aberrations have skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. It has 16 skill points for its 1st HD and 4 more for every HD thereafter for a total of 60 skill points to use. It can have no skill with a rank higher than 15.

Don't forget creatures that have Climb and Swim speeds automatically gain +8 racial modifiers to their Skills.

If it is invisible, it has a +40 bonus to Hide (and -4 penalty to Hide for its size). If it is invisible and moving the bonus is only +20 to Hide.

I hope this helped.

Debby

Lord Vukodlak
2012-11-03, 02:52 PM
Overall you did a darned good job. I'm not sure how it has 2 mouths and only flies with one wing, but that's where you need to add description. The DM needs to know this even if the PCs do not. Its appearance is supposed to be indescribably horrific so horrific you either go insane or block out its appearance entirely. The odd attack scheme is design to help convey this. I went through a few attack schemes before settling on the final one.
3 claws, and 2 bites and tail. two bites, two, claws and two tails etc. I then decided Two bites, and claw, and wing, and two tails conveyed the oddest appearance without going over six attacks as anything more just gets to complicated.

I at one point considering rolling the natural invisibility and horrific appearance into one ability. On a failed save you go insane, on a successful save its instead rendered invisble to you. But I thought that was to cruel.


Third, Supernatural abilities are ALWAYS charisma-based. Only Extraordinary abilities can use any ability modifier.A dragon's breath weapon is consitution based, as is the Corporeal Instability of a chaos beast. Supernatural abilities can be consitution based. Only spell-like abilities are actually bound to charisma.


Don't forget creatures that have Climb and Swim speeds automatically gain +8 racial modifiers to their Skills.

If it is invisible, it has a +40 bonus to Hide (and -4 penalty to Hide for its size). If it is invisible and moving the bonus is only +20 to Hide. One of the reasons skills were pending, lots of little provisos, and most invisbile creatures don't include that information, also I didn't want to go back and adjust the skills everytime I adjusted an ability score, until the creature was out of beta.


I hope this helped.
It did thank you.

Debihuman
2012-11-03, 09:45 PM
I admit I have a hard time suspending my disbelief with Horrific Appearance. Gibbering Mouthers are much more bizarre looking. Granted this is a Supernatural ability, but Bandersnatch by name has a certain familiarity that seems to override its weirdness. For what you are doing, H.P. Lovecraft has better source material than Lewis Carroll.

I erred earlier. It seems Reflex saves on Supernatural abilities are Con or Dex based. However, Will saves should probably be Charisma based.
If you had made Horrific Appearance a Reflex save rather than a Will save, it would made sense for it to be Constitution-based. However, since it is a Will save, making it Charisma-based makes more sense. It is a mind-affecting ability rather than something you could dodge. Also, the lower DC from Charisma gives the PCs a little more breathing room since the creature has so many attacks.

I agree that rolling Horrific Appearance and Natural Invisibility into one would have been mighty cruel.

The attack line makes sense now. It just leaves me with one question. Can the creature bite two different targets with its 2 mouths or must both mouths be used on a single target? It isn't clear from the text or the stat block.

Otherwise, it looks good.

Debby

Lord Vukodlak
2012-11-03, 11:35 PM
I admit I have a hard time suspending my disbelief with Horrific Appearance. Gibbering Mouthers are much more bizarre looking. Hense why I wish to be vague on the description of its appearance. The idea behind the creature was something naturally invisible because to see is true visage would drive you insane. How do I describe that kind of creature.


Granted this is a Supernatural ability, but Bandersnatch by name has a certain familiarity that seems to override its weirdness. For what you are doing, H.P. Lovecraft has better source material than Lewis Carroll.I chose the name Bandersnatch for a few reasons I remembered being ambushed by packs of them in the Sega Genesis verison of Shadowrun, they were giant invisble creatures that pounded you into the ground, added to the fact that the literary Bandersnatch was an indescrible creature helped sell me on the name. In H.P Lovecraft everything drives you insane and I wanted a name I could both remember, and pronouce. Bandersnatch has appeared in all kinds of media and is never quite the same twice.


If you had made Horrific Appearance a Reflex save rather than a Will save, it would made sense for it to be Constitution-based. However, since it is a Will save, making it Charisma-based makes more sense. It is a mind-affecting ability rather than something you could dodge. Also, the lower DC from Charisma gives the PCs a little more breathing room since the creature has so many attacks. The way I see it the horrific appearance has to with its body. If I made it charisma based I'd either give it a racial bonus to the DC or raise the charisma.

The insanity is only a problem if you completely defeat the invisibility such as with see invisibility or true seeing. The guys with low will-saves don't use see invisibility, or true seeing they aren't casters they'd rely on a caster using glitterdust or Faerie Fire to outline the creature defeating the concealment but not actually making it invisible. By having the DC high it makes using see invisibilty or true seeing againts the creature actually dangerious to the people with access to those abilities spell casters.


The attack line makes sense now. It just leaves me with one question. Can the creature bite two different targets with its 2 mouths or must both mouths be used on a single target? It isn't clear from the text or the stat block. I linked the rend to the bite so even if though it can bite two different targets with its 2 mouths its not tactically sound.

TuggyNE
2012-11-04, 12:27 AM
By the way, its Horrific Appearance should probably be tagged as [mind-affecting].

Debihuman
2012-11-04, 11:02 AM
I agree the bandersnatch's horrific appearance should be a mind-affecting effect. Other creature's horrific appearance are always a Fort save vs. physical or ability damage. Since this is different, I suggest renaming Deranging Appearance. It should take into account other creatures besides "people."

Deranging Appearance (Su): The true visage of the bandersnatch is so horrific, the mere sight of it is enough to drive other creatures insane. All creatures (except those immune to mind-affecting effects and other bandersnatches) that view the bandersnatch’s true appearance, such as with true seeing or see invisibility, must make a Will save (DC 20) or be driven insane for as long as they can see the bandersnatch and for 1d4 rounds thereafter. Creatures that successfully save against it cannot be affected again by the same bandersnatch’s deranging appearance for 24 hours. Deranging appearance is a mind-affecting effect. The DC is charisma-based and includes a +3 Racial bonus.

It is also missing See Invisibility.

Spell-like Ability (Sp): At Will--see invisibility.

That's about as clear as I can make it. Also, cleaned up the syntax a bit.

Debby