Polymorph and alter self combo, does it work?

[Lost in books]

OK so here is the scenario.
I cast polymorph to change into lets say a dragon. In the spell description it says "The subject's creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form (see the Monster Manual for more information)." This spell's duration is 1 minute per level.

Now the Alter self has a longer duration of 10 minutes per level. So can I "alter" myself in the same dragon shape I just polymorphed in to get the longer duration since my creature type and subtype changed to dragon?''

After I casted the polymorph I ceased to be humanoid and changed into dragon "type and subtype" so I think it works.

I know that this is not action economy to cast two spells to gain one effect but the longer duration can help in some situations.

What does the playground think?

[Clistenes]

OK so here is the scenario.
I cast polymorph to change into lets say a dragon. In the spell description it says "The subject's creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form (see the Monster Manual for more information)." This spell's duration is 1 minute per level.

Now the Alter self has a longer duration of 10 minutes per level. So can I "alter" myself in the same dragon shape I just polymorphed in to get the longer duration since my creature type and subtype changed to dragon?''

After I casted the polymorph I ceased to be humanoid and changed into dragon "type and subtype" so I think it works.

I know that this is not action economy to cast two spells to gain one effect but the longer duration can help in some situations.

What does the playground think?

The Alter Self spell can't prolong the effect of the Polymorph spell; once the Polymorph effect ends, you recalculate the numbers as if you had casted the Alter Self spell on your original form, and since you can't use Alter Self to turn an humanoid into a dragon, the Alter Self spell would end too.

[TuggyNE]

As soon as polymorph expires, you're no longer a valid target for alter self; what happens then is a little up in the air, and although it should probably remain in place anyway, some DMs would seize on that as a nerf-point.

Fakeedit: Ninja'd by an example of one such. :smalltongue:

[Emperor Tippy]

The Alter Self spell can't prolong the effect of the Polymorph spell; once the Polymorph effect ends, you recalculate the numbers as if you had casted the Alter Self spell on you original form, and since you can't use Alter Self to turn an humanoid into a dragon, the Alter Self spell would end too.

You would be wrong. All spells only check applicability upon casting, that the spell becomes invalid at a later point in it's duration is irrelevant.

So long as your type is "dragon" when you cast Alter Self then you can alter self into anything else with the "dragon" type and remain in that form for the duration of the spell.

[Lost in books]

Your interpretation sounds reasonable. But I think the other way is as valid as well.

As long as the spell was cast legally it is self sustaining on it's own. It doesn't check every round if the conditions when you initiated it still remains. It is a duration of an already applied effect, not a continuosly evolving one. And the only reason I say this is because on every build or trick I have read here there is always something about the "order" of things to be able to come up with builds. "Sorry I can't come up with specific examples, but i am reading a lot... and probably not even reached the first 1% of information here!!!)


You would be wrong. All spells only check applicability upon casting, that the spell becomes invalid at a later point in it's duration is irrelevant.

So long as your type is "dragon" when you cast Alter Self then you can alter self into anything else with the "dragon" type and remain in that form for the duration of the spell.

Ninjaed me :)

[tyckspoon]

Sure, you can do that. Just remember that after the Polymorph expires you're working under the restrictions of Alter Self, which is a *much* less powerful spell - even if you 'lock in' being in a stronger shape with Alter Self, you'll revert to using your own stats instead of those of the shape you're in, and you'll lose any special attacks you wanted to use. You might also be restricted to 5 HD or less forms, which tends to waste a lot of Polymorph's potential.. unless you can convince your DM the 'you can turn into yourself' line in Alter Self over-rides that and always allows you to turn into yourself, whatever yourself happens to be at the moment.

[Clistenes]

You would be wrong. All spells only check applicability upon casting, that the spell becomes invalid at a later point in it's duration is irrelevant.

So long as your type is "dragon" when you cast Alter Self then you can alter self into anything else with the "dragon" type and remain in that form for the duration of the spell.


Your interpretation sounds reasonable. But I think the other way is as valid as well.

As long as the spell was cast legally it is self sustaining on it's own. It doesn't check every round if the conditions when you initiated it still remains. It is a duration of an already applied effect, not a continuosly evolving one. And the only reason I say this is because on every build or trick I have read here there is always something about the "order" of things to be able to come up with builds. "Sorry I can't come up with specific examples, but i am reading a lot... and probably not even reached the first 1% of information here!!!)

Mmmmm...your way to do things would make the already crazy, crazy Polymorph Any Other spell chains even crazier. With regards to duration, I go with a VERY restrictive interpretation in which you have to calculate the duration of every Polymorph Any Other spell as if you had casted it both on you original form and all the previous links/steps, and pick the shortest one.

So if you turn a stone into a statue, the statue into a stone golem and the stone golem into a human, you would have to calculate the duration of the last polymorph spell as the minimum between "stone to human", "statue to human" and "stone golem to human".

I also rule that, if you use it to turn an inanimate object into a creature, it works as if the spell had first Animated the object, giving it stats and HD appropiate to its size, and polymorphed it afterwards.

And surprisingly, it still allows you to create crazy polymorph chains...

[TuggyNE]

Mmmmm...your way to do things would make the already crazy, crazy Polymorph Any Other spell chains even crazier. With regards to duration, I go with a VERY restrictive interpretation in which you have to calculate the duration of every Polymorph Any Other spell as if you had casted it both on you original form and all the previous links/steps, and pick the shortest one.

So if you turn a stone into a statue, the statue into a stone golem and the stone golem into a human, you would have to calculate the duration of the last polymorph spell as the minimum between "stone to human", "statue to human" and "stone golem to human".

I also rule that, if you use it to turn an inanimate object into a creature, it works as if the spell had first Animated the object, giving it stats and HD appropiate to its size, and polymorphed it afterwards.

And surprisingly, it still allows you to create crazy polymorph chains...

Don't try to fix PaO with general reinterpretations; just rewrite the spell already.

[Lost in books]

So for what i see in the few answers here it looks like an even split. I understand that alter self is not going to give you the polymorph array of choices. Honestly all I am looking for is the modes of movement, AC, and the reach benefit of other forms that are not available to "humanoid". The fact that it lasts 10 times as long makes it awesome. (sucks humanoids don't have a decent large creature.... my DM always bans OA and similar books)

So I do understand that the benefits of poly expire earlier than the alter self, but if i am in a battle and the last round of poly I used a breath weapon, the next rounds under alter self I am still benefiting from a lot of the form characteristics excluding the special senses and attacks etc.

I appreciate the explanations of how you would change the spell descriptions, but I just want to know if by strictly RAW if this combo makes sense. After all, I don't see how it could be unbalanced when by the time you can use this combo you are casting polymorph anyway.

[Clistenes]

So for what i see in the few answers here it looks like an even split. I understand that alter self is not going to give you the polymorph array of choices. Honestly all I am looking for is the modes of movement, AC, and the reach benefit of other forms that are not available to "humanoid". The fact that it lasts 10 times as long makes it awesome. (sucks humanoids don't have a decent large creature.... my DM always bans OA and similar books)

So I do understand that the benefits of poly expire earlier than the alter self, but if i am in a battle and the last round of poly I used a breath weapon, the next rounds under alter self I am still benefiting from a lot of the form characteristics excluding the special senses and attacks etc.

I appreciate the explanations of how you would change the spell descriptions, but I just want to know if by strictly RAW if this combo makes sense. After all, I don't see how it could be unbalanced when by the time you can use this combo you are casting polymorph anyway.

Well, most people around here seem to think that once Polymorph expires, you are left with just Alter Self as if it had been casted on you original form, except that, thanks to the combo, you can take shapes that wouldn't be allowed to a mere Alter Self.

I personally think that allowing Alter Self to give non-humanoid shapes through that trick would go against the spirit of the rules, but the majority of the other posters seem to go with the rules as written and accept it.

Since they have an advantage of three to one, I guess I'm the one who is wrong.

[Lost in books]

@ Clistenes:

Hey bud, this is not about you being right or wrong. I really really appreciate all the different points of view. Especially since I am not trying to break the game or anything. I just thought this could be a clever way of giving humans a bit of an opportunity to be more versatile. When there are campaigns that have aberrations and monstrous player races using the lowly alter self spell to devastating efficiency, humans are left way behind when their humanoid list is so limited on their benefits.

So it looks that my combo works according to RAW. As always I am eternally grateful for all advice and if someone else has some insight on this topic, via errata or rules that i don't have in PHB I will appreciate it if it is posted here. Thank you all.

[roguemetal]

I personally think that allowing Alter Self to give non-humanoid shapes through that trick would go against the spirit of the rules, but the majority of the other posters seem to go with the rules as written and accept it.
I'm not sure this falls into RAI vs RAW dispute. Polymorph does intend the player to make use of the change in type/subtype or it wouldn't specify it. In fact, I would argue that's one of the major points of polymorph in traditional games where certain items are useable only by an altered or polymorphed creature. The whole question of whether or not it ends early is in my mind akin to the reasoning behind how temporary score increases allow extra uses of times per day abilities. Would you stop the effect of a turn-undead that was given extra uses by Eagle's Splendor just because the duration of Eagle's Splendor runs out?

[ericgrau]

Polymorph lets you assume a form, not that it changes your original form. Alter self says in the first sentence that it's based on the type of your normal form.

Even if you might argue that by RAW (though I'd disagree) the trick is obviously made to bypass the limitations and intent behind alter self and is clearly against RAI.

Even setting the rules aside you aren't merely replacing a polymorph with a lesser polymorph. Alter self has a duration advantage. A less apparent trick on gishes is that it lets you retain your physical ability scores. That may seem tolerable at first, but for example it is the number one reason why melee polymorphed into a hydra doesn't actually hit that hard: lots of attacks but not many hits nor damage per hit. AC from dex may increase as well. This trick keeps all the advantages and bypasses the disadvantages making truly fearsome and abusive characters that really do hit several times for massive damage. This is much better than what the game expects to be possible: extra stats beyond polymorph and often no buffing round needed to create them since it lasts over an hour and could be recast a couple times if needed. The trick fails by the rules and it fails massively on balance. It's one thing to blow a round on a reasonable buff, and it's a completely different animal to get a huge buff without requiring any precious combat time.

It's a lot like using polymorph any object x 2 + poorly balanced monsters from certain books to permanently turn someone into a game breaking creature. This is what ends up breaking polymorph and often gets it banned. Which is a shame because of all the creative and interesting things you could do without breaking the system.

[Lost in books]

@ Ericgrau:

I am not sure if I understand what you are saying, so i am going to give you an example and you tell me if it is right:

Humanoid: natural unchanged= A/
Polymorphs into aberration: effective current=B/
is targeted by an Aberration Banemagic charged spell=C:
Does the spell have the intended effect against aberration or does it not work?


EDIT:
Ok i see what you are saying on the wording of alter self, sadly it falls a bit in gray area because to me "base form" and "normal form" are similar in meaning but mechanically different. I also understand your concern with power but I want to point out alter self has a 5HD cap. In essence it is still a very gimped Wild shape mimicry.

I am not going to bring this up at my game since the wording of "normal form" which I was thinking meant your current form can rightfully be interpreted as you say. So thank you.

Oh, lastly notice that while the poly spell says assume a new form it does specify your "Type and Subtype" change. It is cut and dry about that fact. My thoughts on this where that what happens when a spell or curse or wish or something makes the change with a limitless duration, permanent until dispelled or similar? Which form you go by? (remember the sex change belt? LOL) Something to ponder at another date.

[ericgrau]

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form.

Your normal form still has the type humanoid so that fails.

And like I said if you let the violation slide this leads to the type of polymorph abuse that shatters campaigns and gets an otherwise interesting and fun spell banned.

[Lost in books]

Thanks Eric, look at my last post edit, you answered while i was typing. Have a great day.... or until I come up with the next stupid idea :-P

[nedz]

Another trick with your combo would be to cast another Alter Self just before the first one runs out.

[TuggyNE]

Another trick with your combo would be to cast another Alter Self just before the first one runs out.

I'm not sure that would make a difference. Your type/subtype is back to its original, and alter self isn't pinning it in place or anything.

[ericgrau]

I might overreact a bit because of the hundred threads that try to cheese out polymorph, ban it or "fix" it, which all end up effectively removing it from D&D.

[Namfuak]

I have to respectfully disagree that this works by RAW. The first line of Alter Self reads:



You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form.


And Polymorph:



The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Polymorph does not change your normal form, it only changes your current form. Otherwise, the term "normal" has no meaning in context. So, alter self could turn you into another humanoid while you are polymorphed, but it would not work differently than if you did not have polymorph on you.

Granted, by even stricter RAW, "Normal form" is never defined, so Alter Self cannot target anything because nothing has a normal form, but I think that's a discussion for another thread.

[TuggyNE]

Polymorph does not change your normal form, it only changes your current form. Otherwise, the term "normal" has no meaning in context. So, alter self could turn you into another humanoid while you are polymorphed, but it would not work differently than if you did not have polymorph on you.

Granted, by even stricter RAW, "Normal form" is never defined, so Alter Self cannot target anything because nothing has a normal form, but I think that's a discussion for another thread.

This does, at least, make it a bit dubious. In either case, though, the expiration of polymorph doesn't affect alter self. :smalltongue:

Does PHB2's (polymorph) subschool have any rules text to enlighten us here?

[Namfuak]

This does, at least, make it a bit dubious. In either case, though, the expiration of polymorph doesn't affect alter self. :smalltongue:

Does PHB2's (polymorph) subschool have any rules text to enlighten us here?



In all other ways, the target’s normal game statistics are effectively replaced by those of the new form.


This is the only relevant thing I can find there. It's still dubious whether "normal form" is included in "normal game statistics."

[Lost in books]

A bigger mindbender than I thought!

I know Ericgrau said he was concerned about the abuses having the alter self longer time over poly could bring. But isn't persistent spell a bigger issue with polymorph than alter self?

The text of alter self specifically removes all special ability gained from the new "normal" form, including extra attacks for multiple limbs. So the abuse, if any, would be minimal.

Just so you know. What I wanted to get out of this was a large form to gain reach and natural armor (physical characteristics that alter self does say you keep)

I am learning a lot with all your comments. Thank you.

[TuggyNE]

I know Ericgrau said he was concerned about the abuses having the alter self longer time over poly could bring. But isn't persistent spell a bigger issue with polymorph than alter self?

That's only an issue if you have a) heavy metamagic reduction or b) epic levels. (Arguably, the problem comes from the one-size-fits-all nature of Persistent Spell combined with the wide variety of metamagic reducers, not polymorph itself. "What, you're saying polymorph isn't responsible for this breakage?!?" I know, I'm shocked too.)