Consequences of gaining a feat every level?

[Gnorman]

Besides the obvious one of "you have more feats." Given that feats are one of the easiest ways to distinguish your character and make them "special," I was considering in an upcoming game offering a feat at each level. Though the game in question is an E6 game and so has more feats in general (at least in theory), I thought I would pose this general question to the community at large:

What consequences would you reasonably envision of giving out a feat every single level to every character?

Some basics: feat taxes become easier to pay, feat chains become easier to complete, the fighter becomes even more obsolete. And I'm sure there are many interactions between feats and/or prestige classes that, while previously not issues because it was impossible to achieve all of them on one character, are now potential disasters. Advantages? Disadvantages? Arguments for? Against?

[Alleran]

Wizards would get all the metamagic they could want.

[mucco]

It helps out martial classes, because they have the long chains. Who has never seen a melee build that required Dodge and Mobility, or Weapon Finesse, or Combat Expertise?

Casters don't really get a big boost, especially in E6. They will be able to pick up several reserve feats though, which is very nice in my opinion.

All in all, I like having lots of feats. They are the meat of any build, and more meat is good.

[Kumori]

With E6 it's only 3 extra feats (2nd, 4th, and 5th). That's not all that much when you consider how many they'll be gaining after hitting 6th.

[Gnorman]

With E6 it's only 3 extra feats (2nd, 4th, and 5th). That's not all that much when you consider how many they'll be gaining after hitting 6th.

Let's assume we're in a regular, twenty-level environment (if you can call that regular).

[Twilightwyrm]

I'd actually argue that the Fighter becomes less obsolete in this case, at least assuming you are keeping the feats from the 3.5 Complete Series (if not, there is more of a point to be made). More feats means more chances at Devotion feats, meaning the fighter can effectively build his man damage dealing feat tree essentially for free, and now has 20 extra feats to play with. Fighters in 3.5 really aren't as worthless as people seem to think...

[Gandariel]

Casters would take all metamagic feats and all sudden X feats

[Krazzman]

Hmm about the fighter... I would certainly give them some sort of capstone. I don't know if the fighter in E6 still only has his Bonus Feats but when everyone has tons of feats, even if you get to play longer on level 6 the main class feature of 4 extra feats... well it ain't gonna pull it. You could now make a level 6 Warblade and would be able to take all the feats the fighter could take.

I have to admit, for a "normal" level 20 group this gives the Fighter a few more options. Every "featstarved" build is going to have a bit more free feats they can pump in stuff like Iron Will or Improved Initiative (and so on).

[Telok]

I did something similar for a regular game I'm DMing currently. I let Fighters (only) have a bonus feat every level and let them take Martial Study/Stance an unlimited number of times with Fighter levels counting as full Initiator levels.

So far the response has been mild. I have a straight Fighter with Oversized TWF who specialized in bastard swords and still picked up Precise Shot and Rapid Shot. For the kid's first ever character and a middle/low optimization game it's not half bad. The other is a Warblade/Fighter using the Warblade refresh method but losing the Fighter side of having all his maneuvers readied at the start of a fight. He's been picking mostly Setting Sun and Tiger Claw maneuvers with some TWF whip-dagger action. He fights like a Swordsage except with good refresh, BaB, HP, and armor. He fits in fine, not even a hint of overpower.

[Man on Fire]

Besides the obvious one of "you have more feats." Given that feats are one of the easiest ways to distinguish your character and make them "special," I was considering in an upcoming game offering a feat at each level. Though the game in question is an E6 game and so has more feats in general (at least in theory), I thought I would pose this general question to the community at large:

What consequences would you reasonably envision of giving out a feat every single level to every character?

Some basics: feat taxes become easier to pay, feat chains become easier to complete, the fighter becomes even more obsolete. And I'm sure there are many interactions between feats and/or prestige classes that, while previously not issues because it was impossible to achieve all of them on one character, are now potential disasters. Advantages? Disadvantages? Arguments for? Against?

Well, in Pathfinder you take feats every 2 levels and already the common consensus is that's more that players needs - at higher levels be prepared to hear a lot of "I don't know what to take" complains.

[2xMachina]

Well, in Pathfinder you take feats every 2 levels and already the common consensus is that's more that players needs - at higher levels be prepared to hear a lot of "I don't know what to take" complains.

There's always Toughness :P

[gkathellar]

Casters don't really get a big boost, especially in E6. They will be able to pick up several reserve feats though, which is very nice in my opinion.

On the contrary, casters would get two enormous benefits:
First of all, the feats available to casters are typically a lot more bang for one's buck than the feats available to non-casters. Suddenly, casters don't have to worry about whether their build can fit Uncanny Forethought and Craft Contingent spell, because they can easily fit both. "Staple" feats become even more ubiquitous, and other strong caster feats quickly rise to the level of staple feats. As others have said, everybody gets metamagic, but the overarching theme here is that casters don't have to focus nearly as much at being good at a single thing. Want Arcane Thesis? Well, it's only 5% of your feat access, so who cares if it only affects one spell? Assume Supernatural Ability? Same deal. Want a bunch of spell-list expanders? No big deal, you've got plenty of other tricks. And hey, Wild Shape came in a level earlier, just on the side.
Second, feat taxes for PrC entry just got a lot easier, which is a huge boon to a lot of caster PrCs. Want a level in Spelldancer? Suddenly, those four feats for entry don't look so bad. IotSV was already worth it with a cost of two crappy feats, but now, those feats are just 10% of what you get, so who cares? Divine Oracle's required Skill Focus is practically inconsequential now. Implicit in this is that early entry tricks just got a hell of a lot easier (and a lot less mutually exclusive, to boot), and again, that tends to benefit casters more than anyone else.

In E6, the consequences would probably be less severe, but I'm inclined to think that this hold true there, as well.

[Rejakor]

Casters can already get all the feats they really want, as most caster feats do more for them than fighter feats do for fighters, and there are less caster feats overall.

So this would slightly help fighters.


Mostly you would just end up with mechanically more interesting characters.

I.e. a fighter who can trip AND shoot a bow, etc. And you'd see some of the more feat intensive builds getting off the ground by level 9, 10, instead of by level 20 (i.e. the level no-one ever plays at).

Honestly you could give out 2 feats every level and it wouldn't even begin to dent game balance.

[TopCheese]

Well, in Pathfinder you take feats every 2 levels and already the common consensus is that's more that players needs - at higher levels be prepared to hear a lot of "I don't know what to take" complains.

They shafted mundanes in Pathfinder even more though... Besides all the things that PF said they would fix but didn't feats really irk me the most.

Improved Bullrush/Trip in 3.5 are each 3 feats in pathfinder. So now even the Fighter has a problem getting them early enough to be useful... Once you hit the higher levels the monsters get multilegs and huge + size catagories.

Anyways...

Feats are one of the least broken elements to the game. The classes are really the problem sooo I would propose tier 1 classes gain the normal 3.5 andvancement of feats, tier 2 - 3 would gain PF feat advancement numbers, and tier 4 - 6 would gain a feat every level.

With medium optimization you may be able to do alright.

Also make any feat a fighter bonus feats except maybe metamagics

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Silverbrow Human, Sorcerer (+PrCs) or Dread Necromancer 8
Split Ray (1), Easy Metamagic: Split Ray (H), Twin Spell (2), Easy Metamagic: Twin Spell (3), Ocular Spell (4), Easy Metamagic: Ocular Spell (5), Sanctum Spell (6), Maximize Spell (7), Arcane Thesis: Enervation (8).


Cast two Easy Split, Easy Ocular, Easy Practical Twinned, Sanctum, Maximized Enervations.
4th level slot for 4th level spell, Sanctum makes it a 3rd level spell from a 4th level slot. One metamagic feat.
+2 split, -1 easy, 3rd level spell from a 5th level slot. Three metamagic feats.
+2 Ocular, -1 easy, 3rd level spell from a 6th level slot. Five metamagic feats.
+4 Twinned, -1 easy, 3rd level spell from a 9th level slot. Seven metamagic feats.
+3 Maximized, 3rd level spell from a 12th level slot. Eight metamagic feats.
Arcane Thesis: 3rd level spell, 12th level slot, eight metamagic feats reduces it to a 4th level slot.

Any time in the next eight hours, that character can spend a full-round action to fire two rays from each eye (four total) striking up to four targets within 30 ft. of each other, with each ray inflicting eight negative levels. He can one-shot his entire 8th level party. He can hit two strong opponents for 16 negative levels each. He can hit the BBEG for 32 negative levels.

You can use lesser metamagic rods on that since it counts as a 3rd level spell.

This actually works in E6 if you use Dread Necromancer and get Versatile Spellcaster.

[gkathellar]

*slow-claps*

[Gnorman]

Silverbrow Human, Sorcerer (+PrCs) or Dread Necromancer 8
Split Ray (1), Easy Metamagic: Split Ray (H), Twin Spell (2), Easy Metamagic: Twin Spell (3), Ocular Spell (4), Easy Metamagic: Ocular Spell (5), Sanctum Spell (6), Maximize Spell (7), Arcane Thesis: Enervation (8).


Cast two Easy Split, Easy Ocular, Easy Practical Twinned, Sanctum, Maximized Enervations.
4th level slot for 4th level spell, Sanctum makes it a 3rd level spell from a 4th level slot. One metamagic feat.
+2 split, -1 easy, 3rd level spell from a 5th level slot. Three metamagic feats.
+2 Ocular, -1 easy, 3rd level spell from a 6th level slot. Five metamagic feats.
+4 Twinned, -1 easy, 3rd level spell from a 9th level slot. Seven metamagic feats.
+3 Maximized, 3rd level spell from a 12th level slot. Eight metamagic feats.
Arcane Thesis: 3rd level spell, 12th level slot, eight metamagic feats reduces it to a 4th level slot.

Any time in the next eight hours, that character can spend a full-round action to fire two rays from each eye (four total) striking up to four targets within 30 ft. of each other, with each ray inflicting eight negative levels. He can one-shot his entire 8th level party. He can hit two strong opponents for 16 negative levels each. He can hit the BBEG for 32 negative levels.

You can use lesser metamagic rods on that since it counts as a 3rd level spell.

This actually works in E6 if you use Dread Necromancer and get Versatile Spellcaster.

A frightening build, but I think two of the corners of its foundation are questionable. Besides the first (being that it requires Dragon Magazine), I don't know if I would interpret Easy Metamagic to apply to Arcane Thesis like that. You're not applying Easy Metamagic to the spell, you're applying it to the metamagic feat.

Still, it's a good example of the downside.

[kardar233]

Assuming you're not dealing with metamagic reduction/stacking (the main reason why casters would need this many feat slots) it should relatively improve melee by allowing them to move outside their main combat tree to get handy things like Animal Devotion or such.

[ahenobarbi]

Ok for mundanes because they will get feats to play with so they may get new options to play with.

Great for casters. Because now there is no problem with qualifying for PrCs. And now every wizard can get uncanny forethought. Ah and Sudden Quicken spell becomes good.

[Medic!]

A frightening build, but I think two of the corners of its foundation are questionable. Besides the first (being that it requires Dragon Magazine), I don't know if I would interpret Easy Metamagic to apply to Arcane Thesis like that. You're not applying Easy Metamagic to the spell, you're applying it to the metamagic feat.

Still, it's a good example of the downside.

I did a similar thing in standard RAW 3.5 with a sorcerer around 12th or 15th level who could reliably crap out upwards of 142 negative levels in one round several times a day...as a bonus he was a necropolitan so if we were up against undead he could dump enough temp hp on himself to just wade into combat with a dagger and come out smelling like a (slightly decayed) rose.

[Tvtyrant]

Fantastic for mundanes outside of core, because they can grab all of the maneuver and chakra feats as well as tons of mutating feats (Wings? Check. Oodles of natural attacks? Also check.) Every fighter would have brutal throw I am assuming, and every archer weapon finesse. Basically everyone would become more flexible.

This is less true in Core, but whirlwind attack would stop being a terrible trap (just a cruddy one).

[SowZ]

A better solution is for 'feat chains' to be a single feat that scales with level or BAB. So, if I take weapon focus, that becomes weapon specialization at level four and improved weapon focus at level 8 and so on and so forth. If I take TWF, it will become greater TWF on its own.

Feats that aren't feat chains but provide a cool option that improves utility without numerical boosts are fine as is. Feats without a chain yet providing a numerical boost should have that boost scale with level.

[Endarire]

One addendum: Give general feats at every level instead to base classes that get full BAB. It buffs Duskblades unwittingly, but it helps the fighty classes that need more feats.

These general feats stack with general feats gained at 1HD, 3HD, 6HD...

[Mithril Leaf]

Artificer. All of the item creation and cost reduction and meleeficer and blastificer feats you could ever want. I think it would hit the tier 0 of the psionic artificer pretty much, as you could do it all.

[Killer Angel]

Besides the obvious one of "you have more feats." Given that feats are one of the easiest ways to distinguish your character and make them "special," I was considering in an upcoming game offering a feat at each level.

In the long run, the characters will probably tend to have the same feats.
With (relatively) few feats at disposal, you have to choose among them (you "distinguish your character"), while with a feat every level, you can pick all the interesting ones, without having to sacrifice.
Soon, every build will include Improved Inititiative, all the casters will have all the metamagic feats, and so on...

[Coidzor]

In the long run, the characters will probably tend to have the same feats.
With (relatively) few feats at disposal, you have to choose among them (you "distinguish your character"), while with a feat every level, you can pick all the interesting ones, without having to sacrifice.
Soon, every build will include Improved Inititiative, all the casters will have all the metamagic feats, and so on...

That's merely an expansion of the existing paradigm though, not a new thing.

Unless you're intentionally self-gimping, which you can do easily even with this number of feats, or unaware of your options then you're going to be as close to the "canon" template for your role as possible given the DM and sources available.

[Killer Angel]

That's merely an expansion of the existing paradigm though, not a new thing.

Unless you're intentionally self-gimping, which you can do easily even with this number of feats, or unaware of your options then you're going to be as close to the "canon" template for your role as possible given the DM and sources available.

Absolutely yes, but in this way it's easier, and you can obtain it even in a mid-level campaign, playing a paladin (or a sorcerer) with a dozen feats, instead of four.

...and if you play a sorcadin, you can finally cover all your bases! :smallsmile: