Retrain Racial Weapons Proficiencies with PH2 rules.

[etrpgb]

It is possible to retrain racial weapons proficiencies with PH2 rules?

[Twilightwyrm]

As I understand it, no. Just like you couldn't retrain a ranger's 3rd level bonus feat Endurance for some other feat, because it is essentially a class feature, you cannot retrain the "feats" that give races their weapon proficiencies because their are racial traits. That is to say, so long as you are that race, there is no other option for that "feat slot" than what you are given.

[Arcanist]

It is possible to retrain racial weapons proficiencies with PH2 rules?

I usually just Chaos shuffle them away, so I can't see why you can't retrain them.

[TuggyNE]

I usually just Chaos shuffle them away, so I can't see why you can't retrain them.

Because retraining isn't cheesy high-level magic, it's an Ex way to change the choices your character made. Racial proficiencies aren't really much of a choice, you're just landed with them.

[Arcanist]

Because retraining isn't cheesy high-level magic, it's an Ex way to change the choices your character made. Racial proficiencies aren't really much of a choice, you're just landed with them.

In my defense. Retraining is a little easier to do then Chaos Shuffling since it can be done MUCH earlier . Moving on~

Yes, you can retrain Racial Weapon Proficiency(ies) because they are treated as feats. For example, Elves:


Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.

Just for being an Elf you gain 6 bonus feats which you can retrain just because.

[TuggyNE]

Just for being an Elf you gain 6 bonus feats which you can retrain just because.

Actually, elves are the rare case of proficiencies that can be chaos shuffled (most can't be, because they aren't actually feats). I'm not too familiar with PHB II retraining rules, but I strongly doubt that that's permissible.

[ojayaba]

interesting question and thoughts there....
According to the SRD elves are the only race that gains the feats. Dwarves and gnomes only have familiarity with the weapons at hand. going by that I wouldn't allow you to retrain your racial feats but I'm guessing some DM's might because they do actually get the feats in question.

*interesting situation...*

[Ashtagon]

That brings up an interesting counterpoint.

A fighter at 1st level gets MWP (longsword), MWP (shortsword), MWP (throwing axe), MWP (scimitar), MWP (great axe), MWP (halberd), MWP (lots of other weapons).

Are those counted as lots of separate MWPs for the purpose of chaos shuffle? If not, why does the elf get to count his more limited selection as lots of separate MWPs for the purpose of chaos shuffle?

[Fitz10019]

It is possible to retrain racial weapons proficiencies with PH2 rules?

No, you can't. The text says you can retrain a feat you've "previously selected." You cannot select a racial feat. You can select a race, but that is not the same as selected it's associated racial feats. This also covers why you can't trade away a feat that comes with a class level, like Ranger's Endurance, as said by Twilightwyrm.

[Zombimode]

That brings up an interesting counterpoint.

A fighter at 1st level gets MWP (longsword), MWP (shortsword), MWP (throwing axe), MWP (scimitar), MWP (great axe), MWP (halberd), MWP (lots of other weapons).

Are those counted as lots of separate MWPs for the purpose of chaos shuffle? If not, why does the elf get to count his more limited selection as lots of separate MWPs for the purpose of chaos shuffle?

Weapon Proficiencies are Weapon Proficiencies, Feats are Feats. Just because you can gain Weapon Proficiencies by taking Feats does not mean those are equal.

[etrpgb]

The idea was retraining a proficiency with another proficiency not feats.

[Flickerdart]

You can't retrain anything that wasn't a choice you made. All retraining does is let you re-make choices (hence, re-training). But you never chose your racial weapon proficiencies, and so you can't retrain them. It's not complicated.

[Zombimode]

The idea was retraining a proficiency with another proficiency not feats.

No, the part I quoted talked about using weapon and armor proficiencies as fuel for Dark Chaos Shuffel which afaik only cares about feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That brings up an interesting counterpoint.

A fighter at 1st level gets MWP (longsword), MWP (shortsword), MWP (throwing axe), MWP (scimitar), MWP (great axe), MWP (halberd), MWP (lots of other weapons).

Are those counted as lots of separate MWPs for the purpose of chaos shuffle? If not, why does the elf get to count his more limited selection as lots of separate MWPs for the purpose of chaos shuffle?

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

No mention that they're gained as feats. A Fighter gains proficiencies as proficiencies, not as feats. The Elf proficiencies are specifically stated as bonus feats, so those are feats. An Outsider is also proficient with all martial weapons, but again those are not stated as having been gained via feats, so not all racial proficiencies are feats.

Armor and shield proficiencies are feats, per the individual feat descriptions:
Special
All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.

That means you could Chaos Shuffle some armor and (tower) shield proficiency feats on a Fighter, but his weapon proficiencies are not feats.

[Cog]

Complete Warrior does offer some limited choice when it comes to racial weapon traits. You can swap out X of your default ones for X of the other ones associated with your race, but only those. That makes keeping the default ones a choice, so an elf could retrain for, say, an Elven Thinblade, I think.

[Arcanist]

You can't retrain anything that wasn't a choice you made. All retraining does is let you re-make choices (hence, re-training). But you never chose your racial weapon proficiencies, and so you can't retrain them. It's not complicated.

Flickerdart, you're one of the smartest people I've ever known on the playground and always back up your responses with pure facts. Truly you are a valued member of this forum community, so no disrespect intended when I ask you where does it say that you can't retrain any feats you didn't select? :smallconfused:

Please provide a quote from the Player's Handbook II or anything else pertaining to retraining that supports your... Well... It's a theory until proven 100% accurate (or as close to accurate as possible...).

[Ranting Fool]

The new
option must represent a choice that you could have made at
the same level as you made the original choice
PHB2 Page 129.

Is about the best I can find. It doesn't say you "can't do this" but then like so much of 3.5 the writers seem to feel that their intent is clear enough (Though these forums prove not everyone agrees on what their intent was)

There is a bit about changing race but weapon prof aren't mentioned (that said it is 4am so my brain isn't working right)

I wouldn't allow it, but since there is no text to highlight in bold that's just my opinion.

[VGLordR2]

You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected for another feat.

You may only retrain feats that you selected.

[Arcanist]

PHB2 Page 129.

Weird... whenever I open up my PHB2 to page 129 it starts off on chapter 5 and offers no detail in retraining and just goes into describing how a background should look...


Is about the best I can find. It doesn't say you "can't do this" but then like so much of 3.5 the writers seem to feel that their intent is clear enough (Though these forums prove not everyone agrees on what their intent was)

Quite right. In my experience when evidence to writers intent is requested and provided people usually just ignore it by saying "Well it's not in the book, so it's worthless", so eh... Doesn't really matter what the writer intended. All that matters is what the books final printing and erratas state.


There is a bit about changing race but weapon prof aren't mentioned (that said it is 4am so my brain isn't working right)

Yep. I'm about to hit the hay...

EDIT:


You may only retrain feats that you selected.

Counter argument: You selected your race and all the benefits and penalties associated with it including any bonus feats, ergo you selected your racial weapon proficiency bonus feats.

Select is not a game term, therefore we resolve to the real world definition of the word which means "to choose" and everything in D&D 3.5 down to your race is a choice :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

The very first sentence of Retraining reads: "...adjusting a decision you made earlier in your character's career by selecting a different legal option." The only legal option for a racial bonus weapon proficiency feat is that feat.

Considering that Retraining doesn't offer you the option to retrain race, the argument that you "chose" your race, so you chose the feats that came with it doesn't hold water. If swapping racial feats is fine, then swapping locked-in bonus feats from classes is fine too, which means that every single bonus feat anywhere suddenly became "any", including the proficiency feats elves get. After all, Retraining doesn't restrict you to the same kind of feats. If you "chose" Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier, you can "choose" Quicken Spell just as easily.

[Ranting Fool]

Weird... whenever I open up my PHB2 to page 129 it starts off on chapter 5 and offers no detail in retraining and just goes into describing how a background should look...

Page 192 Typo my bad.:smalltongue:

[Ranting Fool]

Counter argument: You selected your race and all the benefits and penalties associated with it including any bonus feats, ergo you selected your racial weapon proficiency bonus feats.

Select is not a game term, therefore we resolve to the real world definition of the word which means "to choose" and everything in D&D 3.5 down to your race is a choice :smalltongue:

Ah now I'm slightly more awake so maybe I can articulate myself enough to explain how when I read through that chapter I am convinced that retraining race weapon prof shouldn't/isn't aloud.

The whole chapter is about rebuilding a character because you don't like your choices, they aren't relevant to your campaign, you have come across a prestige and you want to qualify.

All the examples saying what you CAN retrain are either Bonus class feats (such as Wizard or Warrior) and then only to other feats that you could have taken at the same level. It doesn't say fighters can re-train Tower Shields.

Rangers are a good example. You can retrain from archer to TWF but not Endurance because you get no other choice of what to pick for a level 3 ranger (Unless there is a splat book which gives a choice of class features, but then you would have a choice).

So I believe because you are never given a choice of weapons / buffs from your race (much like not being given the choice of Endurance for a ranger) you can't retrain that.

That Said: I would be happy to allow a PC to make a ACF (Well ARF) if you could fit it in the fluff.

[etrpgb]

Complete Warrior does offer some limited choice when it comes to racial weapon traits. You can swap out X of your default ones for X of the other ones associated with your race, but only those. That makes keeping the default ones a choice, so an elf could retrain for, say, an Elven Thinblade, I think.

Interesting, so it is somewhat possible what I was thinking; but I was watching in a complete wrong direction.


We all know the gnomish quickrazor, the MM4 greathammer, the bastard sword and the spiked chain are associated to all races, no? ;)

[Arcanist]

Seems, I've started an explosion of insight... This actually makes me happy :smallamused:


The very first sentence of Retraining reads: "...adjusting a decision you made earlier in your character's career by selecting a different legal option." The only legal option for a racial bonus weapon proficiency feat is that feat.

Right, so I can replace the feat since if you really want to go back and retrain the entire elven assumption that you just know how to use a rapier and replace it with say... a metamagic? This is of course assuming that you're characters career even started before you even said "I am...", but to assume contrary would make the entire retraining idea moot since you are effectively playing without a background otherwise...


Considering that Retraining doesn't offer you the option to retrain race, the argument that you "chose" your race, so you chose the feats that came with it doesn't hold water. If swapping racial feats is fine, then swapping locked-in bonus feats from classes is fine too, which means that every single bonus feat anywhere suddenly became "any", including the proficiency feats elves get. After all, Retraining doesn't restrict you to the same kind of feats. If you "chose" Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier, you can "choose" Quicken Spell just as easily.

Well considering that it specifically states that you get them as bonus feats you can safely assume that you are getting them as feats. Not entirely sure where you went on that idea, but i'm just waking up so pardon if my reading comp isn't up to snuff at the moment.


Ah now I'm slightly more awake so maybe I can articulate myself enough to explain how when I read through that chapter I am convinced that retraining race weapon prof shouldn't/isn't allowed.

You'd have to discuss with your DM if it is allowed or not at your table, but strictly by RAW it appears to be perfectly legal and offers an excellent option to characters without access to Chaos shuffling :smallsmile:


The whole chapter is about rebuilding a character because you don't like your choices, they aren't relevant to your campaign, you have come across a prestige and you want to qualify.

Right and I don't like the choice that my Elf made sometime in his life where training with a Rapier would be useful so I'm going to have him retrain it to improve his magical skills (learning a metamagic instead). I am currently experiencing a laps in memory, but I recall it stating somewhere that retraining is effectively just stopping to improve that level of skill (Maybe your character is rusty on using your rapier and you replaced it with making your spells last a little longer).


All the examples saying what you CAN retrain are either Bonus class feats (such as Wizard or Warrior) and then only to other feats that you could have taken at the same level. It doesn't say fighters can re-train Tower Shields.

Those are for class features, but okay :smallconfused: If a class feature offers you a bonus feat then it is perfectly viable for feat retraining.


Rangers are a good example. You can retrain from archer to TWF but not Endurance because you get no other choice of what to pick for a level 3 ranger (Unless there is a splat book which gives a choice of class features, but then you would have a choice).

To be more accurate: The Archer to TWF would be a class feature since you are treated as having the feat and not actually having them where as with Endurance you're actually gaining it as a bonus feat which is now completely viable for shuffling, retraining and so on and so forth.


So I believe because you are never given a choice of weapons / buffs from your race (much like not being given the choice of Endurance for a ranger) you can't retrain that.

Choice is not a game term so I'd enjoy if we stopped discussing as if it were actually one. On that note: My argument is that you select your race and gain all the benefits (+2's to ability score, bonus weapon proficiency, etc.) associated with being that race. I'm waiting for someone to mention that quote where it says "RAW is 100% legal and 110% stupid" can't exactly remember at the moment... Regardless of all of this most of the arguments against my points are fluff with my personal favorite being presented by Flickerdart


"...adjusting a decision you made earlier in your character's career by selecting a different legal option."

which would assume that backstory actually does affect game mechanics, which I must admit does make me happy :smallamused:


That Said: I would be happy to allow a PC to make a ACF (Well ARF) if you could fit it in the fluff.

You allow your Sun Elf Wizards to retrain all of their Weapon Proficiencies for metamagics? Since it does go with their fluff? Oh, how about this, if your Player walked up to you and told you that I want my character to be an Ancient Netherese Arcanist (without the Netherese Arcanist prestige class since it is a pre-epic game) you would allow him to adjust his spell system to allow him access to the fields of Mentalism, Variation and Invention, allow him to take spell focus for every school under that specialization, and replace all of his weapon proficiency with Spell Mastery(s) and Uncanny Forethought, because it would fit just wonderfully with the fluff :smallamused:

... Hmm... Gave me a wondrous idea just now... Thanks :smallamused:

[nyjastul69]

Benefits that come with a chosen race are not chosen benefits. The race is chosen. The associated benefits are not a choice, they're a given. You can't retrain a races given benefits any more than you can retrain the race itself.

[Arcanist]

Benefits that come with a chosen race are not chosen benefits. The race is chosen. The associated benefits are not a choice, they're a given. You can't retrain a races given benefits any more than you can retrain the race itself.

... I can't think of a non-rude way to say this, but I'm gonna need for you to cite a reputable WoTC source on that one, otherwise I'm going to be forced to assume that this is you're own house rule. :smallsmile:

[Cog]

Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. Elves esteem the arts of swordplay and archery, so all elves are familiar with these weapons.
There's your official cite: it's not a choice to have such proficiency, you simply do. Though, admittedly, the Player's Handbook does have a pretty poor reputation...

If you want to argue that each elf instead chooses their proficiencies, you're welcome to provide a cite that backs that up.

[nyjastul69]

... I can't think of a non-rude way to say this, but I'm gonna need for you to cite a reputable WoTC source on that one, otherwise I'm going to be forced to assume that this is you're own house rule. :smallsmile:

There can be exceptions. Humans are an example. When a player chooses for his character to be human there is a further choice to be made. To wit, what will I choose as a bonus feat. On the other hand elves get no such choice. They are given a suite of feats, there is no choice. No house rules are involved. Everything regarding racial benefits and choices, or lack thereof, are clearly described in chapter 2 of the PH. I find the PH to be reputable WotC source.

[Fitz10019]

Benefits that come with a chosen race are not chosen benefits. The race is chosen. The associated benefits are not a choice, they're a given. You can't retrain a races given benefits any more than you can retrain the race itself.


... I can't think of a non-rude way to say this, but I'm gonna need for you to cite a reputable WoTC source on that one, otherwise I'm going to be forced to assume that this is you're own house rule.

When we say choosing a race does not equal choosing a feat, that is not a houserule. This is clear RAW and RAI. Trying to call it a houserule is just sad.

[nedz]

That brings up an interesting counterpoint.

A fighter at 1st level gets MWP (longsword), MWP (shortsword), MWP (throwing axe), MWP (scimitar), MWP (great axe), MWP (halberd), MWP (lots of other weapons).

Are those counted as lots of separate MWPs for the purpose of chaos shuffle? If not, why does the elf get to count his more limited selection as lots of separate MWPs for the purpose of chaos shuffle?

I remember seeing a TO build which did this a couple of years ago. The logic was that since weapon proficiencies are feats, ... . This logic is, of course, back to front.

[Arcanist]

I have returned from an exhausting day! Time to sort through argumentative writing :smallbiggrin:


When we say choosing a race does not equal choosing a feat, that is not a houserule. This is clear RAW and RAI. Trying to call it a houserule is just sad.

It's a houserule because RAW does not support it. It is RAI because it would be convenient for you.

Please do not go about calling things "RAI" without any form of backing from the writers (or hell a quote of the writer stating his stance would be nice).


There can be exceptions. Humans are an example. When a player chooses for his character to be human there is a further choice to be made. To wit, what will I choose as a bonus feat. On the other hand elves get no such choice. They are given a suite of feats, there is no choice. No house rules are involved. Everything regarding racial benefits and choices, or lack thereof, are clearly described in chapter 2 of the PH. I find the PH to be reputable WotC source.

Attacking me with fluff didn't work so now you try and attack me with RAW? Fantastic! Because the whole "retraining" thing also relies on fluff with the whole "choice" thing. Your Fwigivilli, instead of training in basic Elven Swordplay and Archery decided to focus on Elven Spellcraft as his father before him and his father and his father and so on.

There you go. A choice that the Elf made in his life to not pick up these feats, abandon them and cease to practice in them and decided to pick up a new technique which is the entire fluff behind retraining.


There's your official cite: it's not a choice to have such proficiency, you simply do. Though, admittedly, the Player's Handbook does have a pretty poor reputation...

If you want to argue that each elf instead chooses their proficiencies, you're welcome to provide a cite that backs that up.


That is a very interesting and valid argument. No explaination of why you have these feats or why you just know how to use them. Kind of like how a Wizard's spellbook spontaneously and out of nowhere gets 2 spells everytime he hears a *ding* go off in his head... :smallsigh:

Allow me to remove choice further from the game. If you game includes deities with a Divine Rank 16+ with the Death, Magic, Spell, Combat or Peace portfolio then they automatically know what you'll be doing 16 weeks before and after you do it. Meaning they know exactly what your character sheet will look like. Meaning that your feat choices are not choices because they WILL happen and you have no say in the matter (Yes even if you decide to change your mind, they'll know if you did that too).

Congratulations. Choice means nothing. Free will means nothing. This is poking fun at the Portfolio sense rules in case you took that seriously

[Flickerdart]

You're trying to justify bending Retraining rules over backwards using fluff arguments. That's why you're convinced it works and everyone else is convinced it doesn't. Making changes to the rules to fit the fluff better is what houseruling is.

[Arcanist]

You're trying to justify bending Retraining rules over backwards using fluff arguments. That's why you're convinced it works and everyone else is convinced it doesn't. Making changes to the rules to fit the fluff better is what houseruling is.


The very first sentence of Retraining reads: "...adjusting a decision you made earlier in your character's career by selecting a different legal option."

Sorry if this sounds a little rude, but I'm just doing what you're doing.

My stance states that both the fluff views on retraining and the RAW use of retraining is wrong, due to how unclear it is on racial bonus feats and since everyone is championing around "Choice" like it's a game term. :smallannoyed:

[Flickerdart]

It's not unclear on anything. If you got to choose something, and it's on the list, you can retrain it. Race is not on the list, and you didn't choose the weapon proficiencies after picking that race - you got the ones the race gets without any say in the matter. It's all there, clear as crystal.

[Arcanist]

It's not unclear on anything. If you got to choose something, and it's on the list, you can retrain it. Race is not on the list, and you didn't choose the weapon proficiencies after picking that race - you got the ones the race gets without any say in the matter. It's all there, clear as crystal.

It's unclear because it doesn't define what a choice is. Your racial benefits for being an Elf offer you Weapon Proficiencies as bonus feats, which is on the list under "Feats" which you can clearly retrain, which would lead a reader to believe that you can in fact retrain them.

[TuggyNE]

It's unclear because it doesn't define what a choice is. Your racial benefits for being an Elf offer you Weapon Proficiencies as bonus feats, which is on the list under "Feats" which you can clearly retrain, which would lead a reader to believe that you can in fact retrain them.

Isn't there something in the PHB under order of level-up about the phase in which you "select" feats? If so, I think the use of the same language would indicate that only feats you "selected" during that phase in one of your levels can qualify for retraining.

[Flickerdart]

It's unclear because it doesn't define what a choice is. Your racial benefits for being an Elf offer you Weapon Proficiencies as bonus feats, which is on the list under "Feats" which you can clearly retrain, which would lead a reader to believe that you can in fact retrain them.
Your racial benefits for being an elf are not a choice by any definition of the word. You can choose to be an elf, but not what comes with that.

[Arcanist]

Your racial benefits for being an elf are not a choice by any definition of the word. You can choose to be an elf, but not what comes with that.

Yes, but your choice of being an Elf and everything associated with it is a choice, otherwise you can choose to be a Human or an Orc or any other race for that matter.

I would like to note that rebuilding your character from race does not actually make you exchange your racial bonus feats... Not sure if that is relivant, but eh... just something I noticed. Gotta admit the PHB2 is KINDA faulty :smalltongue:

EDIT: I'd also like to note that the book uses the word "Decision". Not really important just want to change the word we're using for this newly created Game term.

[Flickerdart]

Yes, but your choice of being an Elf and everything associated with it is a choice, otherwise you can choose to be a Human or an Orc or any other race for that matter.
No.

Your choice of being an Elf is a choice. Everything associated with that is not a choice. You can't pick Elf as a race and then say "oh, I think I'll have Orc stats actually if you don't mind but I'm still an Elf, thanks".

[Arcanist]

No.

Your choice of being an Elf is a choice. Everything associated with that is not a choice. You can't pick Elf as a race and then say "oh, I think I'll have Orc stats actually if you don't mind but I'm still an Elf, thanks".

No.™

"If you choose an item and are aware of the items associated with them you are also choosing those items" (I'm quoting my friend on that).

What you're doing would be refluffing.

[Flickerdart]

Your friend is not a rules source, nor is he correct. The choice you are making is Elf. Can you retrain Elf? No. Query ends. Request denied.

[Arcanist]

Your friend is not a rules source, nor is he correct. The choice you are making is Elf. Can you retrain Elf? No. Query ends. Request denied.

Yes, but my friend seems to understand what a choice actually is. As has been stated (I believe 3 or more times), you are not retraining Elf, you are retraining the feats you chose for being an elf. We're all gentlemen here Flickerdart. Please calm down. :smallsmile:

[Flickerdart]

Yes, but my friend seems to understand what a choice actually is. As has been stated (I believe 3 or more times), you are not retraining Elf, you are retraining the feats you chose for being an elf. We're all gentlemen here Flickerdart. Please calm down. :smallsmile:
You didn't choose any feats for being an Elf. You chose Elf. Being an Elf comes with feats. These feats are not a choice in and of themselves, because you cannot choose to get different feats after choosing Elf.

But please, try to slide your exploitative claims at a table with that condescending tone. See how well that works for you.

[Arcanist]

You didn't choose any feats for being an Elf. You chose Elf. Being an Elf comes with feats. These feats are not a choice in and of themselves, because you cannot choose to get different feats after choosing Elf.

But please, try to slide your exploitative claims at a table. See how well that works for you.

Yes you can, you can retrain the feats, because they're feats and the table specifically states you can retrain feats. You're claiming that "I choose A which comes with B, C and D, however I only chose A meaning that B, C and D are not even associated with that choice and are therefore not choices in and of themselves."

I wouldn't allow this at my table, but that would be a house rule I personally set in place, as a player, I'd ask the DM have him take it into consideration pending the level of optimization of the game (Most likely allowable in a game that allows High OP). Saying it would be RAW would be an unsupported claim. :smallsmile:

[nyjastul69]

I have returned from an exhausting day! Time to sort through argumentative writing :smallbiggrin:



It's a houserule because RAW does not support it. It is RAI because it would be convenient for you.

Please do not go about calling things "RAI" without any form of backing from the writers (or hell a quote of the writer stating his stance would be nice).



Attacking me with fluff didn't work so now you try and attack me with RAW? Fantastic! Because the whole "retraining" thing also relies on fluff with the whole "choice" thing. Your Fwigivilli, instead of training in basic Elven Swordplay and Archery decided to focus on Elven Spellcraft as his father before him and his father and his father and so on.

There you go. A choice that the Elf made in his life to not pick up these feats, abandon them and cease to practice in them and decided to pick up a new technique which is the entire fluff behind retraining.




That is a very interesting and valid argument. No explaination of why you have these feats or why you just know how to use them. Kind of like how a Wizard's spellbook spontaneously and out of nowhere gets 2 spells everytime he hears a *ding* go off in his head... :smallsigh:

Allow me to remove choice further from the game. If you game includes deities with a Divine Rank 16+ with the Death, Magic, Spell, Combat or Peace portfolio then they automatically know what you'll be doing 16 weeks before and after you do it. Meaning they know exactly what your character sheet will look like. Meaning that your feat choices are not choices because they WILL happen and you have no say in the matter (Yes even if you decide to change your mind, they'll know if you did that too).

Congratulations. Choice means nothing. Free will means nothing. This is poking fun at the Portfolio sense rules in case you took that seriously

I never attacked you. I made a post about my reading of the rules. Yours clearly differs. My post was not specific to anything you said. I was just trying to contribute to a conversation I found interesting. Please take a more civil tone.

[Arcanist]

I never attacked you. I made a post about my reading of the rules. Yours clearly differs. My post was not specific to anything you said. I was just trying to contribute to a conversation I found interesting. Please take a more civil tone.

Sorry, I've had a long day so I was a little bit exhausted when I was writing that, but I'm a-ok now that I've had my coffee :smallsmile: Trying to take as calm and as civil a tone as possible for a person like me :smalltongue:

[Firechanter]

I dunno, I've always seen the retraining rules as a tool to fix feat choices that turned out to be poor ones, as are made especially by new players; to offer a legal mechanism rather than just wing it by DM belevolence.

For example, once I had a Cleric with Improved Overrun... yeah that was silly. When I realized this, I got to swap it for something useful.

That's also very clearly how the Rules Are Intended, as can be read on PH2 p. 191. Fixing mistakes, not super-optimizing for every possible level. "Planned obsolescence" in the style of "now I'm taking X, and in 4 levels I'll retrain that to Y" doesn't fly with me either.

So it's probably not surprising that I side with the faction that says No, you can't retrain racial weapon profs, as even if there's a chance it's not against RAW it clearly is against RAI. The intro text is pretty clear about that.

[Arcanist]

I dunno, I've always seen the retraining rules as a tool to fix feat choices that turned out to be poor ones, as are made especially by new players; to offer a legal mechanism rather than just wing it by DM belevolence.

For example, once I had a Cleric with Improved Overrun... yeah that was silly. When I realized this, I got to swap it for something useful.

That's also very clearly how the Rules Are Intended, as can be read on PH2 p. 191. Fixing mistakes, not super-optimizing for every possible level. "Planned obsolescence" in the style of "now I'm taking X, and in 4 levels I'll retrain that to Y" doesn't fly with me either.

So it's probably not surprising that I side with the faction that says No, you can't retrain racial weapon profs, as even if there's a chance it's not against RAW it clearly is against RAI. The intro text is pretty clear about that.

I like you. I like everything about your comment. Even the part that tells me why you disagree. I agree that, retraining every little feat that you deem "useless" is a terrible excuse for it and that it should be used for it's properly intended purpose, which is to retrain illogical feat choices or fluff based changes to your character as the text suggest. Perhaps your heightened initiative really screwed you over and your character decides "Hmm... I need more patience..." :smallsmile:

[TypoNinja]

Leaving aside the blindingly obvious answer that no you can't retrain them because holy crap that's too many goddamn feats, and moving on to TO and RAW, you still can't retrain them because of the following.



...adjusting a decision you made by selecting a different legal Option...

You never made the decision that granted you that feat, just like you never made the decision that granted your ranger his endurance feat. Acquiring those weapon proficiencies took no active involvement on your part.


...You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected for another feat...

You never selected those feats, just like a Lycanthrope gets Iron Will. This was never an option, you don't have the ability to turn it down or trade it in. It is in the nature of the creature.

See the theme here? Decision you made, Selecting a different legal option, you previously selected. All of these require active intervention by the Player.

That last one is really the nail in the coffin, as "select" is actually the specific wording the game uses when you gain feats.


Feats
Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

Its reinforced again at epic levels.


Acquiring Epic Feats

Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:

At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.

So, in game terms, you did not Select those weapon proficiencies. While you did select your race, you had nothing to do with determining what your racial qualities are, that is predetermined.

Edit: Ahh forgot a bit sorry.

The final clause of feat retraining also kills it.


if the new feat has prerequisites, not only must your character meet them in his current state, but you must also be able to show that you met them at the time you chose the previous feat.

There are no legal choices at that stage of character creation, the PHB gives the order of steps when creating a new character, and feats come close to the end. By RAW you aren't allowed to select ANY feats yet. And again the 'chose' keyword, you never did actually pick those bonus feats.

[Arcanist]

Leaving aside the blindingly obvious answer that no you can't retrain them because holy crap that's too many goddamn feats, and moving on to TO and RAW, you still can't retrain them because of the following.

RAW is RAW. No matter how hard you try to prove it Select, Choose and decide are not Game terms. Stop pretending they are.


You never made the decision that granted you that feat, just like you never made the decision that granted your ranger his endurance feat. Acquiring those weapon proficiencies took no active involvement on your part.

Neat, so select the package and by association select everything associated with it. Like ordering a meal at a fast food place (ordering the Burger and getting a fries and drink by association). Not sure where you're getting that whole "active involvement" thing


You never selected those feats, just like a Lycanthrope gets Iron Will. This was never an option, you don't have the ability to turn it down or trade it in. It is in the nature of the creature.

You gain it as a bonus feat, which by RAW is retrain-able.


See the theme here? Decision you made, Selecting a different legal option, you previously selected. All of these require active intervention by the Player.

I do see the theme! WoTC needs to word their sourcebooks more clearly! Glad we could make this discover in the nick of time! :smallbiggrin:


That last one is really the nail in the coffin, as "select" is actually the specific wording the game uses when you gain feats.


Its reinforced again at epic levels.

Mind linking me to the page of the Rules Compendium that actively goes into depth to describe select, choice, decision, etc. and you'll have your nail :smallsmile:


So, in game terms, you did not Select those weapon proficiencies. While you did select your race, you had nothing to do with determining what your racial qualities are, that is predetermined.

... Gonna have to explain how you came to that conclusion :smallconfused:


The final clause of feat retraining also kills it.


There are no legal choices at that stage of character creation, the PHB gives the order of steps when creating a new character, and feats come close to the end. By RAW you aren't allowed to select ANY feats yet. And again the 'chose' keyword, you never did actually pick those bonus feats.

Interesting that you would say that the retraining rules kill the whole retraining of weapon proficiencies thing especially considering that the start of the rules states:


This technique represents the character practicing new talents in lieu of honing others.

"IT'S ALL THEIR BLACK AND WHITE, CLEAR AS CRYSTAL! YOU STOLE FIZZY LIFTING DRINKS!" ... Wait... wrong script *scruffles through papers* Ah, here we go... *ahem*

"No™" A little comedy to a stressing conversation should lighten the mood... We're all civilized men here after all.

[TypoNinja]

Are you just being contrary deliberately now? Is this some elaborate prank?

I cite the PHB and ELH/SRD and you ask for the rules compendium page? Because two sources isn't enough I should buy a new book to give you the thrid!

You are tying the English language into knots by trying to suppose that the word Choose doesn't involve any active participation. I shouldn't have to start linking online dictionaries to highlight the ludicrousness of your position.

Not all bonus feats are retrainable, as noted in the retraining section (you have read it right?) A retrained choice must be legal as of the conditions upon which you originally choose that feat. Ignoring for the moment the once again important distinction of Choose, some feats are gained without options. Like a Rangers Endurance. Its simply a class feature, there was no alternate choice at the time of its acquisition.

Let me reiterate, there are no other legal choices, there is nothing to retrain the feat into because there were no other choices to be made. If you are told to gain a specific feat, there are no other options to choose from when attempting to retrain. A fighter can only retrain his bonus feats to other fighter bonus feats, a monk could retrain his 1st level bonus feat, but only to either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist, because those are the only legal options. A ranger can't retrain Endurance or Track because at the time he gained those feats there were no other legal options.

You cannot retrain racial proficiencies because there are no other legal options. According to the PHB you aren't allow to pick any feats at all at the point at which you gained them.

The reason I was able to conclude that you did not pick your racial qualities is because I do not see your name as a listed author of the PHB. Somebody else determined what an Elf is. You decided to play an Elf. You choose none of the Elfs traits, proficiencies, stat adjustments, base height and weight, favored class. None of it was your choice. These are all predetermined. What an elf is required no input from you, you merely copied predetermined settings. Somebody else made all the decisions for you, at no point was it your choice. If you break out the FRCS you can choose between different types of Elves, but you still don't get to choose what each one is like.

[Zombimode]

RAW is RAW. No matter how hard you try to prove it Select, Choose and decide are not Game terms. Stop pretending they are.

Seeing that term "select" is actually used in the rulebooks regarding feats, it appears that your assertion that "select" is not a game term is objectively false.



Neat, so select the package and by association select everything associated with it. Like ordering a meal at a fast food place (ordering the Burger and getting a fries and drink by association). Not sure where you're getting that whole "active involvement" thing


Actually, no. You select an option. The reasons for doing so may include that you accept the outcomes.
You have selected the option "elf". You probably have accepted any or all of th outcomes of the decision. For the option of "elf" this includes some bonus feats.
But this semantic distinction is not even needed to show that you cant use the retraining rules as presented in the PHB2 to retrain racial bonus feats like the weapon proficiencies of the elf.


You gain it as a bonus feat, which by RAW is retrain-able.

Yes, you can retrain any bonus feats to any feat that would be a legal choice at the time you gained the bonus feat.
Thats why you can likely retrain a fighter bonus feat because the list of possible fighter bonus feats is quite extensive.
Thats why you can likely retrain the human bonus feat because the possible list for those is "any that you qualify for".

You can't retrain the Track feat a ranger recieves at first level because there are no other options to choose from. (You can, of course, maybe find an ACF that would yield a different feat or other benefit in place of the Track bonus feat, but then your not retraining the bonus feat but the class feature that grants the bonus feat.)

I have the feeling that your misunderstanding of what constitutes a legal choice is the main point of contention here.

Edit: semi-ninja'd by a Ninja :smallwink:

[Arcanist]

Are you just being contrary deliberately now? Is this some elaborate prank?

This comment actually hurt my feelings... Mind toning down the explosive fury? :smallfrown:


I cite the PHB and ELH/SRD and you ask for the rules compendium page? Because two sources isn't enough I should buy a new book to give you the third!

Actually I'm asking for a specific citation where Select is actually a game term. It is never defined in any book as what constitutes selected or choice. Therefore you're to fall back onto the actual definition of the word (I'd feel like a jerk if I pulled up the word's actual definition and words synonymous for it, but I'm sure you know what "Select" or "Choose" means.)


You are tying the English language into knots by trying to suppose that the word Choose doesn't involve any active participation. I shouldn't have to start linking online dictionaries to highlight the ludicrousness of your position.

Other way around actually. I'm stating that choices associated with one choice qualifies as a choice as well.


Not all bonus feats are retrainable, as noted in the retraining section (you have read it right?) A retrained choice must be legal as of the conditions upon which you originally choose that feat. Ignoring for the moment the once again important distinction of Choose, some feats are gained without options. Like a Rangers Endurance. Its simply a class feature, there was no alternate choice at the time of its acquisition.

Questioning my knowledge of the material. Charming. :smallannoyed:

Wonderful it is a legal option for an Elf to replace his/her weapon proficiencies because they are legal options. You're argument assumes that retraining is dependent on the order of operations of leveling up, which isn't supported anywhere (for retraining I mean).


Let me reiterate, there are no other legal choices, there is nothing to retrain the feat into because there were no other choices to be made. If you are told to gain a specific feat, there are no other options to choose from when attempting to retrain. A fighter can only retrain his bonus feats to other fighter bonus feats, a monk could retrain his 1st level bonus feat, but only to either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist, because those are the only legal options. A ranger can't retrain Endurance or Track because at the time he gained those feats there were no other legal options.

Unsupported on the Monk statement. Ranger is actually a class feature since it states "you're treated as"... Magical.


You cannot retrain racial proficiencies because there are no other legal options. According to the PHB you aren't allow to pick any feats at all at the point at which you gained them.

You cannot pick feats at level 1. Interesting.


The reason I was able to conclude that you did not pick your racial qualities is because I do not see your name as a listed author of the PHB. Somebody else determined what an Elf is. You decided to play an Elf. You choose none of the Elfs traits, proficiencies, stat adjustments, base height and weight, favored class. None of it was your choice. These are all predetermined. What an elf is required no input from you, you merely copied predetermined settings. Somebody else made all the decisions for you, at no point was it your choice. If you break out the FRCS you can choose between different types of Elves, but you still don't get to choose what each one is like.

You don't even know my name :smallconfused: ... If you do it actually scares me a little... :smalleek:

Anyway, I'm gonna need you to cite a source on:


You choose none of the Elfs traits, proficiencies, stat adjustments, base height and weight, favored class. None of it was your choice. These are all predetermined. What an elf is required no input from you, you merely copied predetermined settings. Somebody else made all the decisions for you, at no point was it your choice.



Seeing that term "select" is actually used in the rulebooks regarding feats, it appears that your assertion that "select" is not a game term is objectively false.

Seeing as how the word "The" appears in every rulebook it is also obviously a game term. Just like A, I, She and He. Just because rulebooks state it periodically does not mean that it is actually a game term. It is an actual game term if it is supported by the rules... Hell, maybe a small table. :smallsmile:


Actually, no. You select an option. The reasons for doing so may be include that you accept the outcomes.
You have selected the option "elf". You probably have accepted any or all of th outcomes of the decision. For the option of "elf" this includes some bonus feats.
But this semantic distinction is not even needed to show that you cant use the retraining rules as presented in the PHB2 to retrain racial bonus feats like the weapon proficiencies of the elf.

Magical. Now we're getting into the philosophical discussion of "Choice" and "Options".


Yes, you can retrain any bonus feats to any feat that would be a legal choice at the time you gained the bonus feat.
Thats why you can likely retrain a fighter bonus feat because the list of possible fighter bonus feats is quite extensive.
Thats why you can likely retrain the human bonus feat because the possible list for those is "any that you qualify for".

Exactly and those Weapon Proficiencies are a choice and legal choices.


You can't retrain the Track feat a ranger recieves at first level because there are no other options to choose from. (You can, of course, maybe find an ACF that would yield a different feat or other benefit in place of the Track bonus feat, but then your not retraining the bonus feat but the class feature that grants the bonus feat.)

Yes you can. It is a bonus feat.


I have the feeling that your misunderstanding of what constitutes a legal choice is the main point of contention here.

I have a feeling (that was recently hurt btw) your misunderstanding of what constitutes a game term is the real problem here.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm done here. To much hostility in the... text. Between empty arguments, attacks on character and creepy comments about my real life identity. I've had enough. Everyone enjoy the rest of your evening and please have a nice tomorrow. :smallsmile:

[TopCheese]

Hmm

Does different subraces of elves gain different racial weapon feats? I'm away from my computer right now (yay phones!) so I'm not sure what the text for the other subraces are.

If they are different then by choosing yout race and then subrace you are choosing which weapons you want since all a subrace choice is..Is a different stat bonus/penalty and a few other sub choices.

With all the screwed up stuff 3.5 has in it... I doubt giving an elf free spiked chain prof is really breaking much...

I now want to make a whatever race Elf Wizard that has spiked chain prof (for free) and uses transform to become a fighter (all the buffs stay on him after transforming)... Could be an interesting Dr J/Mr H character.

-_-

[Fitz10019]

by choosing yout race and then subrace you are choosing which weapons you want

No, it's not. is this idea some kind of a virus spreading?

Choosing a greatsword does not mean you choose 2d6 damage. It's a result, a consequence, or even a reason why you chose the greatsword, but 2d6 is not a choice you made. You chose a greatsword.

When your character kills an ogre, the xp you get is not a choice. It's the result of a choice, and possibly the reason for the choice, but it is not the choice itself. You chose to attack an ogre until it was dead.

You are allowed to retrain a feat you previously chose. Your choice of race and subrace are not feat choices. The racial feats are the result of and possibly the reason for your choice, but they are not the choice itself.

Arcanist had one right idea: let's leave this thread to sink into obscurity

[Alabenson]

It's unclear because it doesn't define what a choice is. Your racial benefits for being an Elf offer you Weapon Proficiencies as bonus feats, which is on the list under "Feats" which you can clearly retrain, which would lead a reader to believe that you can in fact retrain them.

Choice; Noun; An act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.

Now that the dictionary definition of what a choice is has been provided;
Your racial bonus feats for being an elf are simply given to you; you do not choose them as you do not have two or more possibilities for said bonus feats when you choose to play an elf. What those feats are was preselected, therefore there was no choice made, therefore they cannot be retrained.

[TypoNinja]

Hmm

Does different subraces of elves gain different racial weapon feats? I'm away from my computer right now (yay phones!) so I'm not sure what the text for the other subraces are.



All the elf subraces have the same racial traits for the most part, the FRCS even shortcuts its completely and tells you
...Have all the racial traits listed on page 16 of the Player's Handbook except as follows...Then it lists different stat adjustments and different languages for each subrace.

All that changes for each subrace is starting stat adjustments, and languages. Everything else stays the same, so much so that they just tell you to go look in the PHB rather than reprinting it.

[etrpgb]

Wow, I leave this thread for few days and I am impressed to see what happened.

I would like to recall everyone that there is nothing to win and nothing and no-one to attack. We are just here to friendly chat about an often unclear and exploitable game.

Now, there is no known way to consider proficiencies as feats. So you cannot retrain a proficiency with a generic feat for sure.

About weapon proficiency to another weapon proficiency? You might with some limitations, but you have to follow another rule, that is in another book. The complete warrior, as Cog told us in message 15.

It is up to you convince your DM that in the settings of choice your weapon of choice is associated with your race of choice.

For example: we all know that in Forgotten Realms the elves are associated with the MM4 Greathammer and the dwarf are associated with the spiked chain... no?

[Cog]

Actually, on rereading the section, I got it wrong. Complete Warrior only offers rules for swapping out the exotic/martial familiarities like dwarves get; the elf proficiencies are specifically called out as not being swappable by those rules. (Though a Valenar elf from Eberron does get exotic/martial familiarity, and so can swap that. I did that for a character once, which is why I thought elves could.) As a side note, what can be swapped is explicit - 'associated weapons' are the ones with the race's name in them.

[etrpgb]

Thanks for the head up Cog.

[Flawless]

It says in the rules text that if you retrain a feat you replace it with a different legal choice. So what are the legal choices for elven bonus feats?

EDIT: The way I see it, if you retrain a feat, you get to choose another feat that would be legal in place of the old one.

So let's say ranger lvl. 2: You get to choose a combat style (which is a class feature and not a feat, but grants bonus feats depending on that choice; this makes it very similar to choosing a race in that regard). Let's assume you have selected ranged combat. That makes your bonus feat 'Rapid Shot'. Let's also assume that retraining this feat is RAW (as you made a choice for your combat style). Now you can replace it with a differrent legal choice. But the only option I see is 'Rapid shot'. We don't want to retrain the class feature, because we couldn't retrain race to keep the analogy intact. So, I don't think you can retrian that combat style feat to 'Quicken Spell', as 'Quicken Spell' was never a legal option. And the same applies to racial bonus feats for the same reason.