Why are monks terrible?

[Cranthis]

Why are monks so good on paper, but generally considered pretty bad in game, for anything other than a few level dip?

Edit: in 3.5

[etrpgb]

...and overall, their class features kinda suck. Mostly, you can look at 'em like this:
-Flurry? That's nice! Now if only I were able to focus on one stat and have full BAB, I'd be doing a lot with my extra attacks on highest bonus!
-Improved Grapple/Trip/Stunning Fist/whatever? Nice! Now, if I only were able to focus on one stat and have full BAB, I could be landing these and winning the opposed checks!
-Speed boost? That's nice! Now, if I only could move and attack with my Flurry (which "almost" makes me equal to full BAB types), I could be doing something! Oh, and if this only stacked with magical speed boosts I'd actually be faster than the other classes.
-Unarmed Strikes? That's nice! Now, if I only got size increases or something so the damage dice would actually add up to something, and got 2x Power Attack returns and full BAB, this could add up to something!
-Ki Strikes? Nice, my unarmed strikes pretend to be weapons and get some minor abilities that almost replicate what my 1000gp weapon does! If only my WPL wasn't 100000...
-Slow Fall? So I get to replicate a 1st level spell by level 20? No? It only works next to walls? Well, almost replicate a 1st level spell!
-All this nice stuff, Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, Empty Body, I can replicate many kinds of spells poorly...once per DAY! Oh, make it Once per WEEK for that scary scary, broken Finger of Death With Save DC Derived Off Secondary Stat That Requires An Attack To Hit To Be Used.
-Oh, there's more? I get to replicate few more random low level spells? Cool. Oh, and Evasion? Yeah, nice, my Reflex-saves actually matter something! That's like...25k saved on the Ring.
-I get Spell Resistance? Just to ensure my team can't waste a Heal on me when I'm about to die? Cool!


Lack of synergy and multi-attribute dependency pretty much screw Monks up. Oh, and the good class features being limited to Very Few Uses Per Day. Seriously, if Monks had the ability to use Flurry whenever making an attack, if they got like Wis x uses of their now-daily abilities and the ability to use Dex for combat maneuvers, and Wis/Dex for damage, they'd be just fine. Grab Weapon Finesse/Intuitive Attack and they'd be able to go to town. As all those things are ****ed up though, they don't. As I mentioned above, those multiclass builds easily sidestep these issues. Mono-classed Monks don't though. -Eldariel


From ``Why each class is in its tier''


The simple solution is using making the unarmed swordsage, in our party we did this:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Armor Proficiency: Light Armor.
Shield Proficiency: None.
Weapon Proficiency: Depends on the school. Just like SRD monk or another school from Dragon Magazine 330 (page 90).
The Unarmed Swordsage has Unarmed Strike ability as SRD monk.
The rest as the ToB Swordsage.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The difficult solution is following the ideas in the bottom of the quote box. Increase the number of times for the special powers and reduce the MAD.

[2xMachina]

Why do you consider it good? Cause it has a class feature every lvl?

Cause it gets a lot of attacks at low BAB?

Cause it's very survivable?

All true, but... most consider those things sub par.

Many weak class features <<<< 1 strong class feature. Espeacially if the class feature can only be used once a week

Lots of attacks at low BAB... It's not amount of attempts that's important. It's the ones that connect, which aren't many, with their poor BAB. Also, they require a number of stats. Str for to-hit and damage (low BAB). Dex for AC (they don't get armor). Con for more HP. Int for Skill points if you care to do anything out of combat. Wis for more AC. Cha... dump stat? Or does some class feature require it?

Very survivable? It's good if you wanna stay alive, but enemies just ignore you and kill your friends instead if you're hard to hit and runs away quickly.

[Answerer]

Why are monks so good on paper
What gave you the idea that they are? They really aren't.

They have a mish-mash of minor abilities that do not synergize. Their very few major abilities all come at level 1-3, and cannot be used together.

The only reason why people might think they look good is because they see a long list of abilities and assume they must be good because they have a lot of them.

[gkathellar]

The only reason why people might think they look good is because they see a long list of abilities and assume they must be good because they have a lot of them.

But, but, +4 to AC by 20th level! Who could say no to that?

[Narren]

I play in a pretty low op game. I give them 6 skill points per level and full BAB progression, and can they can stand with the others.

[Amphetryon]

They get Fast Movement, and a signature ability predicated on not moving more than 5' in a round. These do not mesh well.

That same signature ability - Flurry of Blows - is paired with 3/4 BAB. These do not mesh well, especially when FoB has additional penalties associated with it at low levels.

[Lord_Gareth]

Additionally, a lot of the Monk's other abilities are also underwhelming while competing with their limited number of actions. Self-healing sounds nice, but it's a tiny amount and burns precious actions. Slow Fall is negligible and also conditional. Tongue of Sun and Moon requires you to survive levels 1-17. The Monk has no native access to flight, can't strike incorporeal creatures, and has no answer to battlefield control. Their Spell Resistance impedes positive spells as well as negative spells.

The list goes on, and on, and on.

[ahenobarbi]

I play in a pretty low op game. I give them 6 skill points per level and full BAB progression, and can they can stand with the others. And monk-as-written still is too weak.

Basically they look good because they have a lot of class features with fancy names. And the features are really cool if you compare them to real-life people.

But monk class features are horrible when you compare them to what other PC classes get in D&D. The easiest way to see this is to see how easily you can duplicate monk class features with spells.

[Hirax]

Monks are a poorly done class to be sure, but I'd just like to point out that SR isn't as big a negative as people make it out to be, due to that the fact that any spell with a saving throw option can have its result accepted without lowering your spell resistance. You're allowed to voluntarily fail saving throws against things, even if you have a special resistance of some sort to them, per the PHB.

[Aharon]

As with so many things in DnD, they aren't that terrible, but to make them powerful, one has to play them counterintuitively. I think one of the best relatively low-op, but still competitive ways to play a monk is Fighter 2/Monk 18, wearing mithril chain and using a ki focus reach weapon to stun foes - or best, a ki focus spiked chain to stun and trip them at the same time.
This makes for a competent melee controller, and you still get to use a whole bunch of all those defensive/random abilities.

AC Bonus (Ex)
Flurry of Blows (Ex)
Bonus Feat
Evasion (Ex)
Fast Movement (Ex)
Still Mind (Ex)
Ki Strike (Su)
Slow Fall (Ex)
Purity of Body (Ex)
Wholeness of Body (Su)
Improved Evasion (Ex)
Diamond Body (Su)
Abundant Step (Su)
Diamond Soul (Ex)
Quivering Palm (Su)
Timeless Body (Ex)
Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)
Empty Body (Su)
Perfect Self

[Lord_Gareth]

Monks are a poorly done class to be sure, but I'd just like to point out that SR isn't as big a negative as people make it out to be, due to that the fact that any spell with a saving throw option can have its result accepted without lowering your spell resistance. You're allowed to voluntarily fail saving throws against things, even if you have a special resistance of some sort to them, per the PHB.

Spell resistance is checked first, however. It's not a bonus to your save - it's another layer of defense, and in order to lower your SR for buffs you make yourself vulnerable to negative spells as well. It's not the same as waiving the save.

[tyckspoon]

Monks are a poorly done class to be sure, but I'd just like to point out that SR isn't as big a negative as people make it out to be, due to that the fact that any spell with a saving throw option can have its result accepted without lowering your spell resistance. You're allowed to voluntarily fail saving throws against things, even if you have a special resistance of some sort to them, per the PHB.

That's not correct. You can ignore your own Spell Resistance, if you have some way to cast a spell on yourself, but for any magical effect from an outside source it's non-optional. Unless you have a spare Standard action to use to lower your resistance, in which case you now act as if you didn't have SR at all until you spend another action to bring it back up.

[Lord_Gareth]

That's not correct. You can ignore your own Spell Resistance, if you have some way to cast a spell on yourself, but for any magical effect from an outside source it's non-optional. Unless you have a spare Standard action to use to lower your resistance, in which case you now act as if you didn't have SR at all until you spend another action to bring it back up.

For the life of me I can't seem to find the rule that backs this up but I'm pretty sure it sounds correct. Can you reference it for us, good sir?

[gkathellar]

A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by a spell noted as harmless. In such a case, you do not need to make the caster level check described above.

There we go.


As with so many things in DnD, they aren't that terrible, but to make them powerful, one has to play them counterintuitively. I think one of the best relatively low-op, but still competitive ways to play a monk is Fighter 2/Monk 18, wearing mithril chain and using a ki focus reach weapon to stun foes - or best, a ki focus spiked chain to stun and trip them at the same time.
This makes for a competent melee controller, and you still get to use a whole bunch of all those defensive/random abilities.

All of which can be done better (and twice on Sundays) by a straight fighter.

[Answerer]

That's not correct. You can ignore your own Spell Resistance, if you have some way to cast a spell on yourself, but for any magical effect from an outside source it's non-optional. Unless you have a spare Standard action to use to lower your resistance, in which case you now act as if you didn't have SR at all until you spend another action to bring it back up.
Hirax is referring to this: Voluntarily Giving Up a Saving Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#voluntarilyGivingupaSavingTh row):

A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

It's conceivable that they were referring to the standard-action suppression, but if that were the case it wouldn't make any sense to put it in the same section as voluntarily giving up a saving throw.

However, never assume that Wizards is being sensible.

The Rules Compendium's version of the "giving up a saving throw" section does not mention SR at all, and the SR section upholds the standard-action suppression. I believe RAW, with all books accounted for, says that you cannot waive SR, but must suppress it ahead of time.

[RandomLunatic]

For the life of me I can't seem to find the rule that backs this up but I'm pretty sure it sounds correct. Can you reference it for us, good sir?

The DMG entry for Spell Resistance.

Or the SRD entry for the same. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance) Note the third and fourth-to-last paragraphs.

[Gnaeus]

As with so many things in DnD, they aren't that terrible, but to make them powerful, one has to play them counterintuitively. I think one of the best relatively low-op, but still competitive ways to play a monk is Fighter 2/Monk 18, wearing mithril chain and using a ki focus reach weapon to stun foes - or best, a ki focus spiked chain to stun and trip them at the same time.
This makes for a competent melee controller, and you still get to use a whole bunch of all those defensive/random abilities.

AC Bonus (Ex)
Flurry of Blows (Ex)
Bonus Feat
Evasion (Ex)
Fast Movement (Ex)
Still Mind (Ex)
Ki Strike (Su)
Slow Fall (Ex)
Purity of Body (Ex)
Wholeness of Body (Su)
Improved Evasion (Ex)
Diamond Body (Su)
Abundant Step (Su)
Diamond Soul (Ex)
Quivering Palm (Su)
Timeless Body (Ex)
Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)
Empty Body (Su)
Perfect Self

You don't actually get Empty Body or Perfect Self by Monk 18. Also, any build which is actually WORSE than fighter 20 i would hate to call competative, even in low-op. Edit: half ninjed while checking monk progression table.

Lets rank those abilities.
Useless: purity of body. Who is scared of non-magic diseases at level 5?
Ki Strike. Your build is using weapons.
Crummy:
Slow Fall. Falling damage is rarely threatening to any meleer. Duplicated by very cheap items
Wholeness of Body: 36 hp at level 20 with a standard. Duplicated by very cheap items.
Quivering Palm: Any caster had daily save or loses with better DC's before level 10. Getting it at level 17 with a non wis-focused monk you are hoping bad guy rolls a 1.
Timeless Body: Is your DM going to let you shift to a plane with a different time flow and age a few categories? If not, useless.
Tongue of Sun and Moon: Does anyone really have serious communication problems at level 19?
Decent:
Improved evasion: Reflex saves are rarely killers, but not bad to have
Diamond Body: Your fort saves should be high anyway, but good on very rare occasions
Abundant Step: if ToB is not in play, you've got something here. If it is in play the fighter can do this as a move action every battle.
Diamond soul: You are 2 levels down, and casters tend to have CL boosters. Also drawbacks as discussed above. Also, anyone who knows you have it will just use SR no effects. But it might save you on a lucky roll.

[Firest Kathon]

Unless you have a spare Standard action to use to lower your resistance, in which case you now act as if you didn't have SR at all until you spend another action to bring it back up.
Not quite correct: You cannot keep the SR down, you need to keep spending standard actions to reep it down.

Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

[Flickerdart]

As with so many things in DnD, they aren't that terrible, but to make them powerful, one has to play them counterintuitively. I think one of the best relatively low-op, but still competitive ways to play a monk is Fighter 2/Monk 18, wearing mithril chain and using a ki focus reach weapon to stun foes - or best, a ki focus spiked chain to stun and trip them at the same time.
This makes for a competent melee controller, and you still get to use a whole bunch of all those defensive/random abilities.

AC Bonus (Ex)
Flurry of Blows (Ex)
Bonus Feat
Evasion (Ex)
Fast Movement (Ex)
Still Mind (Ex)
Ki Strike (Su)
Slow Fall (Ex)
Purity of Body (Ex)
Wholeness of Body (Su)
Improved Evasion (Ex)
Diamond Body (Su)
Abundant Step (Su)
Diamond Soul (Ex)
Quivering Palm (Su)
Timeless Body (Ex)
Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)
Empty Body (Su)
Perfect Self
As a Monk 18, you don't get Empty Body or Perfect Self, nor the version of Slow Fall that's even almost as good as a 1st level spell.

Bonus Feat: Ok, so you got a (crappy predetermined) feat at 1, 2, and 6. Fighter gets a (crappy, but not predetermined) feat at 1, 2, 4, and 6. So you lost a feat.

(Improved) Evasion: Reflex is the least important save.

Still Mind: Enchantment is the easiest school to counter.

Ki Strike: If you don't have a magic weapon, why are you a fighter? Then, instead of Ki Focus weapons you can just buy a Lawful one or whatever...or use any number of various things that ignore DR.

Slow Fall: Hello, almost-feather fall!

Purity of Body: Are there even non-supernatural/non-magical diseases in the game? How many of them have a DC that a good Fort save cares about?

Wholeness of Body: Great, you can heal 36 hit points. By taking a d8 instead of a d10 HD, you lose 18 hit points, and by spreading out your stats on Dexterity, you can't afford a good CON and lose another 18 at the least. So you're actually down a standard action.

Diamond Body: Good Fort save, don't care.

Abundant Step: If you think that a 1/day dimension door is any sort of useful, just teleporting on an item.

Diamond Soul: SR 8+level isn't enough to be relevant against any spellcaster that knows what caster level is.

Quivering Palm: I hope you didn't dump Wisdom! You'd hate to miss out on a 1/week SoD that requires both a hit and a save and doesn't affect half the creatures in the game or anything with Heavy Fortification armour.

Timeless Body: Great, now you can be irrelevant for longer.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon: You may be able to speak to these creatures, but they don't really have a compelling reason to speak back.

In exchange for all of this junk, you lost 5 points of BAB, heavy armour, and the ability to complete the good feat chains. Where's the competence coming from, again?

If you really want this kind of character, go Feat Rogue and be awesome. All the feats of a Fighter, better special abilities, less MAD, and a fat stack of skill points to UMD and sneak and disarm traps and so on.

[tyckspoon]

Hirax is probably correct, see Voluntarily Giving Up a Saving Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#voluntarilyGivingupaSavingTh row):


It's conceivable that they were referring to the standard-action suppression, but if that were the case it wouldn't make any sense to put it in the same section as voluntarily giving up a saving throw. At the very least it's ambiguous, and I can't think of any situation where allowing it to be suppressed would be a problem. Maybe if you extended it to Golems?

The thing is.. the bit gkathellar quoted, about how you must lower your SR (requiring a standard action) to be affected by a Harmless spell? Same rules block as that line about voluntarily giving up a saving throw- they're both part of the Spell Descriptions stuff. I know you're not fond of the concept of RAI, but I find it hard to believe they'd put contradictory rules immediately next to each other if the controlling one was in fact meant to be that voluntarily giving up a saving throw also bypassed all other defenses that would make the spell not work (ie, if you voluntarily gave up your saving throw against a Fireball, that line would have it that you also give up the benefit of any Energy Resistance or Immunity you had, and if you had a Mind Blank up you could ignore its downsides and accept Mind-Affecting buffs anyway.. I don't think this is how it works, and if the RAW does in fact go that way I believe it is an unintended consequence of a really placed line, but I can't prove that.) If that line is supposed to be the over-riding rule, the bit under Spell Resistance about how you have to spend a particular action to lower it is both contradictory and redundant.

[Hirax]

the bit under Spell Resistance about how you have to spend a particular action to lower it is both contradictory and redundant.

Yes. And owing to how completely and utterly stupid the lowering SR clause is, there's no reason not to use the voluntarily fail a saving throw one in its stead.

[Answerer]

The thing is.. the bit gkathellar quoted, about how you must lower your SR (requiring a standard action) to be affected by a Harmless spell?
I edited my post.

[TypoNinja]

Basically the monks problem is that is has lots and lots of abilities which make it look powerful, but almost none of them actually work together to any coherent whole like any other classes. In fact some of them are contradictory. Compare to something like a ranger, and you can see the difference. It's pretty easy to see the Tolkien themed ranger taking shape. You look at a monks abilities and not only is the theme weak, bits of it don't work together. Fast movement! But a core melee ability that requires you not move to use it. Mutually exclusive powers suck.

Also its a melee class without full BaB progression. That's bad.

[Answerer]

I agree with everything in your post, TypoNinja, except the comparison to Ranger. Ranger suffers from very similar problems re: mish mash of abilities that don't know where they're going. It gets bonus feats that support combat styles that rely on bonus damage it doesn't have. It gets a smattering of spells that are mostly too little, too late (barring ACFs). It gets a bunch of tracking-related features that... generally aren't used much. The Ranger doesn't really know what it is, IMO.

[Flickerdart]

Compare to something like a ranger, and you can see the difference
Ranger is an awful example. The archery tree, for instance - oh, here's a feat that encourages you to use full attacks...and then here's one that encourages you to use standard actions! Or the useless spells, or the useless companion, the hide-specific abilities that suddenly crop up in the late levels, the tardy Evasion, the uselessness of Favored Enemy...Ranger is a mess.

[toapat]

Ranger is an awful example. The archery tree, for instance - oh, here's a feat that encourages you to use full attacks...and then here's one that encourages you to use standard actions! Or the useless spells, or the useless companion, the hide-specific abilities that suddenly crop up in the late levels, the tardy Evasion, the uselessness of Favored Enemy...Ranger is a mess.

Ranger is best described as a Concept that WotC had no idea what the hell they were doing with.

You are a hunter in the wild, living with the only companion you have ever known and the weapons you grew up with.

monk is actually more coherent:

You are a person who seeks to perfect themselves, in body and mind.

[eggs]

Ranger's still a pretty good example.

WotC didn't know what they were doing with it, but Ranger still gets more attacks at higher bonuses than the Monk, gets class features that allow it to adapt to different circumstances, doesn't have insane gear limits so a character with high Str/decent Con can still have workable attack/AC regardless of secondary or tertiary stats (let's just not look at damage or mobile combat right now) and its class features specifically aim it toward a couple specific things to do: scout and whack things with swords/bows.

[Eldan]

Plus, you are spending half your class features to be almost as good at fighting as an NPC warrior.

I mean, compare. NPC warrior with full plate and a sword to a monk. Both at say, around level 3, so the full plate can be paid for.

The NPC has 18 armour, even if he has no dex. The monk has that only if he has very good stats in dex and wisdom.

The NPC deals 2d6 damage with his greatsword (or has another +2 armor if he uses a longsword and shield). The monk deals 1d6. The warrior can also power attack for double. The monk can't. The NPC also has a better attack bonus.

[TypoNinja]

Ranger is an awful example. The archery tree, for instance - oh, here's a feat that encourages you to use full attacks...and then here's one that encourages you to use standard actions! Or the useless spells, or the useless companion, the hide-specific abilities that suddenly crop up in the late levels, the tardy Evasion, the uselessness of Favored Enemy...Ranger is a mess.

Not nearly as much as a Monk. Rangers get the ability to track, then track at high speed, and ignore terrain penalties so they can chase somebody down even faster over rough terrain. And if it happens to be a favored enemy they get bonuses. Even the crappy little endurance feat lets them track for more hours a day by helping with the forced march.

A whole slew of class features that can work together to make you better and better at a task as you grow. There's consistency.

[roguemetal]

Monks were sadly built to shine at early levels with nothing to compare once they reach 8+. I suppose they have some PrCs like Fist of the Forest that make them decent... as in Fighter decent. Of course to be effective at all you need to do some multiclassing. Psychic Warrior is usually first pick, with Serenity Paladin a close second.

[Grim Reader]

Ranger is an awful example. The archery tree, for instance - oh, here's a feat that encourages you to use full attacks...and then here's one that encourages you to use standard actions! Or the useless spells, or the useless companion, the hide-specific abilities that suddenly crop up in the late levels, the tardy Evasion, the uselessness of Favored Enemy...Ranger is a mess.

Rangers actually still a good example. In addition to the stuff thats been mentioned, they got a good amount of skill points, and a decent list of skills.

They also have a lot of ACFs that give things like Wild Shape, arcane caster Favored Enemy (good with power attack) and make them quite customizable. Finally there are several PrCs that can be dipped to make them relevant. Beast Master, MoMF, Primeval etc.

I cannot really think of any PrC that can add as much to a Monk.

[Aharon]

On rereading my post, I should have stated it differently. The skeleton of a build (!) I proposed doesn't make the monk powerful, but I think you will agree that it is more useful than a monk played as designed - unarmed fighting + MAD.

Of course, there are options that can do all this build does and more. I'm not saying it's as good as a caster or a swordsage or something. It does patch up a few of the monks weaknesses and I think one can enjoy playing it.

That said, some more detailed responses:

@gkathellar
Fighter 20 with improved evasion and SR? How do you achieve that?

@gnaeus/Flickerdart

You don't actually get Empty Body or Perfect Self by Monk 18.

True. I was a bit hasty in posting.
@Abilities
Ki Strike: Ki Focus transmits Ki Strike to the weapon.
Diamond soul: You are right for PvP, however, non-primary caster monsters often have spell-likes that have a lower CL than their HD.

The rest of your points, I fully agree on.

[toapat]

@gkathellar
Fighter 20 with improved evasion and SR? How do you achieve that?

Generic Warrior from UA

[TuggyNE]

It is also instructive to count how many of a Monk's class features can be duplicated, or even improved, with inexpensive magic items or feats.


AC Bonus (Ex)

Monk's Belt, 13000gp, Wis to AC and +1 bonus.


Flurry of Blows (Ex)

No direct replacement, but Snap Kick and Two Weapon Fighting are more generic versions that can achieve much the same result with same or lower penalties.


Bonus Feat

One of the few gems, Monk bonus feats don't need prerequisites. Essentially the only reason the class still has a place.


Evasion (Ex)

Ring of Evasion, 25000gp.


Fast Movement (Ex)

2000gp custom item (expeditious retreat) equals this until level 12.


Still Mind (Ex)

Again, a 2000gp custom item arguably improves on this: protection from evil gives outright immunity to many enchantments.


Ki Strike (Su)

Just get a weapon already.


Slow Fall (Ex)

Ring of feather falling, 2200gp, doesn't require a wall to fall next to and has no limit on distance.


Purity of Body (Ex)

Just eat the fort saves, or get your friendly party cleric to heal you, or something. Doesn't help with mummy rot, demon fever, devil chills, or various other supernatural diseases which are the only ones you really care about.

Or, of course, get a periapt of health, 7400gp, and be immune to those too.


Wholeness of Body (Su)

Just get one or more Healing Belts, 750gp. Easier, faster, more thorough, more flexible.


Improved Evasion (Ex)

Not easily replaceable except with levels in certain classes, but of somewhat dubious merit anyway.


Diamond Body (Su)

Woot, this includes supernatural and magical poisons. So does a periapt of proof against poison, if that's your thing.


Abundant Step (Su)

Anklets of translocation, 1400gp. Available sooner and more flexibly.


Diamond Soul (Ex)

If you actually care about SR, add it to your armor or as a magic item, 10000gp per point over 12. Expensive, and probably not worth it, just like this class feature.


Quivering Palm (Su)

1/week dodge-or-save-or-die is ... underpowered. There's no obvious replacement for this, although you could get a 1/day custom slay living for an impressive 81000gp.


Timeless Body (Ex)

Irrelevant for nearly any adventurer.


Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)

If you really want this, you could replace it for roughly 33000gp (custom continuous speak with animals, speak with plants, and tongues covers nearly everything).


Empty Body (Su)

Cloak of Etherealness, 55000gp. Assuming, of course, you have some reason for being on the Ethereal Plane.


Perfect Self

The funny thing is, you gain almost nothing from this, but lose quite a bit. Specifically, you might have Darkvision 60' (get a belt of dwarvenkind already, 14900gp), may not need to eat or sleep (ring of sustenance, 2500gp, does most of this), have DR 10/trivial* and are no longer subject to e.g. charm person. In exchange, you can now be dismissed or banished (where to? no one knows), you can't be raised or resurrected anymore, and you can longer benefit from e.g. enlarge person.

Edit: wow, I'd forgotten how truly awful this is. At least you don't lose resurrection, though.

*Specifically, many creatures at this level have DR/magic or even DR/epic, and can bypass your DR themselves automatically; most of the others have had magic weapons for the last 10+ levels, or simply ignore DR with spells.

[toapat]

In exchange, you can now be dismissed or banished (where to? no one knows), you can't be raised or resurrected anymore

the "Become an outsider" capstones have no value at all, ok, you gain a small bit of DR, at what benefits, they typically forget to give you any of the prerequisite outsider types.

[TypoNinja]

the "Become an outsider" capstones have no value at all, ok, you gain a small bit of DR, at what benefits, they typically forget to give you any of the prerequisite outsider types.

And really dr/magic at 20th level is really not all that useful. Is there any at level encounter that can't bypass that? (not including huge piles of mooks)

Although as a native outsider you aren't subject to banishment from the Prime Material Plane, it is your home plane.

[toapat]

And really dr/magic at 20th level is really not all that useful. Is there any at level encounter that can't bypass that? (not including huge piles of mooks)

Although as a native outsider you aren't subject to banishment from the Prime Material Plane, it is your home plane.

actually, monks dont become Outsider (Lawful, Native), they become Outsider (can be ressed). i went to check that out before i posted that.

[TypoNinja]

actually, monks dont become Outsider (Lawful, Native), they become Outsider (can be ressed). i went to check that out before i posted that.

Yer right, I was thinking of the 3.0 monk. The 3.5 capstone is actually weaker. God damn.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to understand where the Monk failed, look at this Monk Remix, with the standard Monk next to it for comparison. And the standard feats this references next to it for comparison as well.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

[TuggyNE]

actually, monks dont become Outsider (Lawful, Native), they become Outsider (can be ressed). i went to check that out before i posted that.

Right, derp, let me go fix that.

[toapat]

Right, derp, let me go fix that.

you were correct in that you can banish them on their home plane though

[gkathellar]

It's pretty easy to see the Tolkien themed ranger taking shape.

Ah, yes, the Tolkein ranger, with its spells and dual wielding and animal companion, right?


Monks were sadly built to shine at early levels with nothing to compare once they reach 8+.

As has been pointed out, they don't shine at early levels, though. Monks suck all the way through.


Psychic Warrior is usually first pick, with Serenity Paladin a close second.

Both of which are really better on their own.


They also have a lot of ACFs that give things like Wild Shape, arcane caster Favored Enemy (good with power attack) and make them quite customizable.

Considering that the best way to make an effective ranger is to trade out as many of the class features of the ranger class as possible, can you actually claim they're an example of a functional class?


@gkathellar
Fighter 20 with improved evasion and SR? How do you achieve that?

Magic items.

[Amphetryon]

Ah, yes, the Tolkein ranger, with its spells and dual wielding and animal companion, right?

To be fair, Aragorn's abilities with herbal remedies, use of the palantir, and summoning of the Dead Men of Dunharrow, coupled with Tolkein's penchant for understatement, could well represent what D&D calls "magic," even if the translation across media is not exact.

[TuggyNE]

Magic items.

Mind expanding on which item gives Improved Evasion? For some reason I'm not remembering one right now.

[TypoNinja]

Ah, yes, the Tolkein ranger, with its spells and dual wielding and animal companion, right?


Lets see, self sufficient, outdoorsy type, tracking skills, animal empathy, uses a bow and a sword, light armor.

Nope, there's no way Aragorn is the character that's defined the Ranger Stereotype, just like pretty much everything else Tolkien wrote influencing practically every fantasy setting ever.

[Flickerdart]

Lets see, self sufficient, outdoorsy type, tracking skills, animal empathy, uses a bow and a sword, light armor.

Nope, there's no way Aragorn is the character that's defined the Ranger Stereotype, just like pretty much everything else Tolkien wrote influencing practically every fantasy setting ever.
Dual wields weapons, animal companions, travels a lot, casts magic spells...Yup, it's Aragorn all right. (http://biobreak.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/gandalf.jpg?w=584)

[TheOOB]

The real problem with monks is they spend so much of their class trying to do something other characters do just fine already. You can do plenty of damage with a great sword, and protect yourself just fine with armor, having a whole bunch of inefficient ways to replicate those things means the monk is always playing catch up to the fighter.

It's the same reason the soul knife is garbage, their whole class is basically a cool magic weapon, which you could just buy.

[Gavinfoxx]

I always thought Gandalf was a level 5 or 6 Paladin..

[gkathellar]

Lets see, self sufficient, outdoorsy type, tracking skills, animal empathy, uses a bow and a sword, light armor.

Nope, there's no way Aragorn is the character that's defined the Ranger Stereotype, just like pretty much everything else Tolkien wrote influencing practically every fantasy setting ever.

Which ... doesn't really address why rangers have spells, dual wielding and an animal companion. None of which Aragorn has. Nor are these new inventions — the spells and companion have been around since 1E, and the dual wielding was a 2E innovation (popularly believed to be a hack to let Drizz't work in 2E).

So yeah, I'm not really clear on how Aragorn is supposed to be the archetypal figure that defines a class that barely resembled him back in 1E, and has resembled him less in each subsequent edition.

[TuggyNE]

Which ... doesn't really address why rangers have spells, dual wielding and an animal companion. None of which Aragorn has. Nor are these new inventions — the spells and companion have been around since 1E, and the dual wielding was a 2E innovation (popularly believed to be a hack to let Drizz't work in 2E).

So yeah, I'm not really clear on how Aragorn is supposed to be the archetypal figure that defines a class that barely resembled him back in 1E, and has resembled him less in each subsequent edition.

You could settle on "the Ranger class is Aragorn with a good few added features", which is actually reasonable for the most part given the extremely low-key magic and limited range of enemies in LotR. (It doesn't really explain dual wielding or animal companion, but those were obviously wedged in from other sources.)

[animewatcha]

For those who watched Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. Would you say that the monk class is 'meant to be' Kwai Chang Caine?

[dascarletm]

I always thought Gandalf was a level 5 or 6 Paladin..

He's more adequatly described as an Outsider.

[rockdeworld]

But, but, +4 to AC by 20th level! Who could say no to that?
Haha, it's funny because when I looked at the martial D&D classes for the first time, I thought: Weak! (After Star Wars, it seemed like they were). Then I learned that, no, it's just that D&D is low-power at low levels. Then I learned that, no, it really is weak.

[gkathellar]

For those who watched Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. Would you say that the monk class is 'meant to be' Kwai Chang Caine?

The monk is meant to be a ridiculous mishmash of different source material, but going by the selection of "monk special weapons," appears most of all to be a feudal Okinawan peasant.

[JellyPooga]

Why are monks so good on paper, but generally considered pretty bad in game, for anything other than a few level dip?

Edit: in 3.5

I've often found this to be quite the reverse. Monks, on paper, are terrible for all the reasons previously listed. However, every time I've played one or seen one played in a game, they've turned out (for one reason or another) to be pretty awesome.

In one game, I played a Half-Ogre Monk focused on grappling. Amongst other achievements, his highlights included wrestling a Bone Devil (or Osyluth to any Planeswalkers out there) into submission and crushing an eldritch tentacled monster from the Far Realms into a squishy foul-smelling paste. Sure, if he'd been a melee focused Cleric or super-raging Barbarian he might have done it more efficiently or whatever, but at the end of the day he was the parties primary melee character and did a pretty darn good job of it (though I'll admit the game didn't go above 8th level).

My advice is to ignore the bad press they receive and just go with it.

[Korivan]

Gestalt monk with something else and if good rolls, then you've got potential for something nice. Maybe not overpowered by far, but something useful and fun to play.

Mono monk with average to ok stats with only the players handbook, and you can get the beat down by a charging fighter. Who only needs about a quarter of the thought put into the build to achieve this.

My problems with monk are largley its a melee class with medium BAB (no class features like cleric/factotum/rouge to make this not an issue), and d8 HD. Now, I know the difference of d8 and d10 might not make much difference by lvl 20, but at low levels every little bit helps.

The fast movement will make you faster then haste, unless someone like a feral gray orc barbarian with the quickness trait is hasted, then youd might be surprised at being runned down.

[Gnaeus]

In one game, I played a Half-Ogre Monk focused on grappling. Amongst other achievements, his highlights included wrestling a Bone Devil (or Osyluth to any Planeswalkers out there) into submission and crushing an eldritch tentacled monster from the Far Realms into a squishy foul-smelling paste.

Yeah. Explain that. Str 28 (natural 18 +6 racial +2 items +2 level) or +9, +4 size +4 imp grapple +4 BAB from monk 6 = about +21. A bone devil is +19, or close to even. But you have a max of 78 hp (Con 18+2 racial and max hp for each of 6 HD) compared to its 95 hp. You can't beat its damage reduction, so not much damage per attack. Your fort save is about +10 (again with the max con) + any resistance items, so if it just keeps stinging you with its tail you are pretty likely to be losing grapple checks really darn soon. If you pin it, it just teleports away (into the air, where you will have difficulty chasing it).

I would expect an eldrich tentacled monster from the far realms to be tougher than the bone devil, but no stats so my opinion may not mean much.

[Flickerdart]

You don't need to be a super Barbarian to be better than a Monk at grappling. At 20th, a Fighter with Toughness for all his feats is better than a grapple-focused Monk at grappling, because his BAB is 20 and the Monk's BAB+Improved Grapple is only 19.

[Gnaeus]

You don't need to be a super Barbarian to be better than a Monk at grappling. At 20th, a Fighter with Toughness for all his feats is better than a grapple-focused Monk at grappling, because his BAB is 20 and the Monk's BAB+Improved Grapple is only 19.

Not only that, but if someone else wanders by and decides to beat on you in grapple, the fighter has a lot more HP and better AC.

[JellyPooga]

Yeah. Explain that.

I think you may have missed my point: I don't need to explain it. I don't need to go into the reasons that make Monks awful on paper, because they've already been discussed in length in this thread and others. The fact is, though I can't prove it beyond you taking me at my word, is that the particular character I gave as an example managed to achieve something that on paper was really quite unlikely for the reasons you mentioned.

Yes, a Barbarian could do it better. Yes, the Devil should, by the odds, have killed that character. Yes, the Far Realms Tentacled Thing should have made short work of him too. However, under the circumstances, my character prevailed. I'm not saying that because I was lucky (or perhaps that the GM fudged the stats, maybe, I don't know) that Monks are any less useless. What I'm saying is that whilst they look bad by the numbers, my experience of them in actual games has been more than satisfactory.

So my contention is that whilst the OP claimed that Monks look good on paper but performed less well in practice, I've found the reverse to be true.

[Gnaeus]

Yep, I missed your point. I thought it was that monks are actually decent at doing their job.

I grant the revised point that a DM can fudge dice and make any character win on any encounter. Gosh, cheat enough, and my commoner can outwrestle a bone devil also.

If you are in a game where the numbers on your character sheet do not matter, you can write anything on the top you want. If you are in a game where the DM will kill your character if they can't beat the enemy, monk is at a real disadvantage.

[Aharon]

You don't need to be a super Barbarian to be better than a Monk at grappling. At 20th, a Fighter with Toughness for all his feats is better than a grapple-focused Monk at grappling, because his BAB is 20 and the Monk's BAB+Improved Grapple is only 19.

It's been quite some time since I read the grappling rules - doesn't the monk actually have an advantage once he is in a grapple because of his unarmed damage?

[Flickerdart]

It's been quite some time since I read the grappling rules - doesn't the monk actually have an advantage once he is in a grapple because of his unarmed damage?
Grappling as a source of damage is a losing proposition, because you can do much more damage by just whacking the other person with a sword. Grappling is a form of lockdown. If you absolutely must use it to deal damage, then you better have Constrict or it doesn't really matter what you're doing.

[Amphetryon]

It's been quite some time since I read the grappling rules - doesn't the monk actually have an advantage once he is in a grapple because of his unarmed damage?

In most non-fringe cases, the Barbarian's STR advantage equalizes that, and the combination BAB advantage and STR advantage already makes the Barbarian's ability to actually successfully grapple/pin otherwise equivalent enemies statistically superior from the get-go.

[Gwendol]

I have monks in my games and they do quite well. The player kind of need to know what he's doing though, to avoid falling into the worst traps of the class. In general though, the monk is best used as a dip.

[gkathellar]

In most non-fringe cases, the Barbarian's STR advantage equalizes that, and the combination BAB advantage and STR advantage already makes the Barbarian's ability to actually successfully grapple/pin otherwise equivalent enemies statistically superior from the get-go.

Isn't there also some Barbarian ACF that grants you natural weapons? Natural weapons are semi-viable for damage-dealing grapple (though as Flicker notes, Constrict is where it's at).

[Firechanter]

Guys, you started Monkday two days early.

I'll add a copper to the pot saying the Improved Evasion is pretty useless; if you're still failing Ref saves at this level you're doing something wrong.

Now re: Ranger. tbh when I read the first comparison to Ranger in this thread I thought it was supposed to be sarcasm. The Ranger is _almost_ as big a nonsynergistic mess of piddly abilities and multiple attribute dependency as the Monk.
You get to skip a few prerequisites in theory, but you need all of them to function anyway.
You get a pet that's so squishy you don't want it to engage in combat at all, more a liability than an asset.
You get a microscopic amount of spellcasting, spells coming in ridiculously late, at pitiful Caster Level and DCs.
You can get a lot of attacks but no reliable source of bonus damage (no, +4dmg vs 4 out of 32 creature types doesn't cut it.)

So... Rangers arel better than Monks, but they're still anything but well-written.

[eggs]

Grappling as a source of damage is a losing proposition, because you can do much more damage by just whacking the other person with a sword. I have to disagree on this one. Grapples don't suffer iterative attack penalties, so if a character with and a Mancatcher/Improved Grab/Scorpion's Grasp gets a hold on its first attack and has made the requisite investments for grapples to be fairly reliable, the character's subsequent attacks are pretty clinched for damage, no matter what penalties the character accrues through Power Attack or similar.

So a Psychic Warrior or similar could do something like Deep Impact+full Power Attack with an improved grab-type attack for full PA damage without worrying too much about missing due to Touch AC, and follow up with three grapples that are nearly guaranteed successes, also dealing damage based on unarmed strikes (currently benefiting from normally-infeasible levels of PA).

Not that it has much to do with the monk, as the Monk does not rank among the best ways to make those grapple checks reliable.

[TheGeckoKing]

I feel that Monks are probably subjectively terrible - they could probably pull their weight as long as they're optimised properly and are in a Mid-Low OP Group, but so many classes do a better job with less required OP-Fu that you really do wonder "Why the heck am I hamstringing myself?".
It's only classes like Samurai (cheap Fighter clone with cruddy feat choices) and Truenamer (OP-Fu required just to get the bugger to function) that are outright terrible.
Oh, and the Wild Monk (Dragon 324) looks quite good, but I guess using Wild Shape is a cop-out. Heck, Monks being Monks, they have to wait until 6th level to get it instead of 5th!

[Gnaeus]

It's only classes like Samurai (cheap Fighter clone with cruddy feat choices) and Truenamer (OP-Fu required just to get the bugger to function) that are outright terrible.


Have you seen an intimidate focused Samurai lockdown build? I'll go with the Samurai. For that matter, as discussed above, the Samurai is better at grappling than the monk.

[Flickerdart]

So a Psychic Warrior or similar could do something like Deep Impact+full Power Attack with an improved grab-type attack for full PA damage without worrying too much about missing due to Touch AC, and follow up with three grapples that are nearly guaranteed successes, also dealing damage based on unarmed strikes (currently benefiting from normally-infeasible levels of PA).
Or with the same amount of investment, the Psychic Warrior could make a nice half-dozen or more normal attacks, using Shock Trooper to absorb the PA costs, and doesn't have to poop his pants every time the party faces an unusually strong or massive opponent, or one with Freedom of Movement or similar.

[TheGeckoKing]

Have you seen an intimidate focused Samurai lockdown build? I'll go with the Samurai. For that matter, as discussed above, the Samurai is better at grappling than the monk.

That's fantastic, except all the critters immune to fear take an axe to the legs of your one-trick pony. I'll make a concession on the grappling thing, though.

[Flickerdart]

They may be immune to fear, but are they immune to dying from laughter when they see a CW Samurai strut on the stage?

[Gnaeus]

That's fantastic, except all the critters immune to fear take an axe to the legs of your one-trick pony. I'll make a concession on the grappling thing, though.

Well:
1. He's likely in a party, and if he can solo neutralize 1 encounter per day, he is pulling his weight.
2. With full BAB, d10s, armor, and wielding a bastard sword, he's likely to be at least equal to the monk at most levels even without the fear focus.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Guys, you started Monkday two days early.

I'll add a copper to the pot saying the Improved Evasion is pretty useless; if you're still failing Ref saves at this level you're doing something wrong.

Now re: Ranger. tbh when I read the first comparison to Ranger in this thread I thought it was supposed to be sarcasm. The Ranger is _almost_ as big a nonsynergistic mess of piddly abilities and multiple attribute dependency as the Monk.
You get to skip a few prerequisites in theory, but you need all of them to function anyway.
You get a pet that's so squishy you don't want it to engage in combat at all, more a liability than an asset.
You get a microscopic amount of spellcasting, spells coming in ridiculously late, at pitiful Caster Level and DCs.
You can get a lot of attacks but no reliable source of bonus damage (no, +4dmg vs 4 out of 32 creature types doesn't cut it.)

So... Rangers arel better than Monks, but they're still anything but well-written.

Rangers strength comes from the ridiculous amount of ACF, variants, substitution levels, etc.

Arcane Hunter is pretty solid, and Wildshape ranger is great, if you have access to Dragon Mag you can also have mystic ranger which combined with wildhsape ranger becomes a 1 man party.

[eggs]

Or with the same amount of investment, the Psychic Warrior could make a nice half-dozen or more normal attacks, using Shock Trooper to absorb the PA costs, and doesn't have to poop his pants every time the party faces an unusually strong or massive opponent, or one with Freedom of Movement or similar.
Instead, he needs to change his pants anytime there's a log or ally in his way.

The point isn't that grappling's better than Shock Trooper. Shock Trooper is ridiculous. But grappling is a workable damage mechanic because it sidesteps the drawbacks of a major damage bonus - this is especially relevant for characters like Totemists and Psychic Warriors, who can make many attacks at relatively low bonuses, and can come close to guaranteeing grapple wins against very large creatures.

[Lord_Gareth]

Instead, he needs to change his pants anytime there's a log or ally in his way.

Flight solves that problem.

[Zdrak]

One of the few gems, Monk bonus feats don't need prerequisites. Essentially the only reason the class still has a place.Albeit only as a 2-level dip.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to grapple... read this...

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870826/Black_Blood_Cultist_Handbook:_A_Grapplers_Manual

[Flickerdart]

Instead, he needs to change his pants anytime there's a log or ally in his way.
You mean your party isn't all incorporeal and you aren't flying all the time? It's like we're playing completely different games. :smalltongue:

[Menteith]

Rangers strength comes from the ridiculous amount of ACF, variants, substitution levels, etc.

Arcane Hunter is pretty solid, and Wildshape ranger is great, if you have access to Dragon Mag you can also have mystic ranger which combined with wildhsape ranger becomes a 1 man party.

If we're dragging ACFs into it, you can make a reasonably competent Monk. Wildshape on a Monk is still solid (Wild Monk, Dragon Mag #324), Invisible Fist is great (Exemplars of Evil), and the Dark Moon Disciple substitution levels allow for a nearly permanent total concealment. Monks out of the PHB are rubbish, while Rangers out the PHB (and without access to the decent spells they pick up later) are pretty blah as well.

[Rejakor]

I made a monk healer for that other thread.

It was pretty boss. Broken One monk substitution at third, gives Lay on Hands. Stigmata (from BoED) lets you sac Con for partywide healing. Caduceus of Healing (magic item) lets you spend Lay on Hands to remove ability damage.

GOOD TIMES WERE HAD BY ALL.



That is all I have to say on the subject.

[TL;DR - Monks are fine as a class because you can make them into hp-healing sponges by the most ridiculous of contortions.]

[Lans]

Monks advantage is that they have higher highs than other non*mechanic* classes, which I imagine is why people thought they were broken when the game first came up. Stunning fist and the giant rolling a 1 on the saving throw, dodging a half dozen fireballs, despite needing to roll a 16 or better while the rest of the party turns extra crispy, the wizards no save or die whiffing off easily beat spell resistance.

Which is what i assume happen while they were play testing.

[Eldariel]

It's been quite some time since I read the grappling rules - doesn't the monk actually have an advantage once he is in a grapple because of his unarmed damage?

You need to win opposed checks or do unarmed attacks at a penalty to actually realize that damage though. Barbarian even without the feat (god forbid with the feat) has a massive edge in the check (Barbarian has 5 points of BAB over Monk by level 20 and +8 Strength from Rage not counting any Strength advantage he has from point buy due to being more SAD) and Monk medium BAB + -4 isn't really a hot combo.

Even with the feat vs. a Barb without the feat the Barbarian is +5 ahead of the Monk, which more than negates the unarmed damage advantage they have (also, Barbarian compensates a bit by high strength which of course adds directly to the unarmed damage). The lower you go on level, the less advantage Barbarian has in terms of the check of course, but the Monk loses out on unarmed damage in turn. Also, Barbarian's vastly larger HP pool gives him the edge in terms of exchange of damage. I ran the numbers for a grapple battle between a level 6 Barb (no Imp. Grapple) and a level 6 Monk (with Imp. Grapple) with identical stats once and the Barbarian won fairly easily simply due to higher hit die and Con from Rage.


Monk can probably do the unarmed attacks but if the Barbarian has invested 1/5th his wealth in AC he probably has high enough AC that the Monk has a significant chance of failure between his medium BAB, -4 from attacking in Grapple and difficulty of assigning a high score to Strength. Barbarian can of course also pin a Monk fairly effortlessly and beat him to death with iteratives (either as attacks or as grapple-checks, due to his higher modifiers he stands a reasonable chance of success in both).