How Strong: Every-Feat Commoner?

[HunterOfJello]

How strong do you think a character like this would be?

Commoner 1
Race = Your Choice
Stats = Elite Array arranged as you choose
Normal Starting Wealth

Feats:
Every feat in the game that a level 1 character could qualify for. Feats are taken in an order and feats can work as per-requisites for other feats. (Lets also say they doesn't have to take any feats they don't want and that they can take a feat multiple times only if it does something different each time. Hidden talent can be taken for every power in the game, but Wild Talent can only be taken once. Skill Focus taken be taken 150+ times. Once for each different skill in the game, but Toughness cannot be taken an infinite number of times.)

*edited for clarity*



Materials Allowed:
All official books. No magazines.

~

How strong would this character actually be? Is there any reason that they would be much more powerful than a mildly optimized level 6 caster or ToB character?

[roguemetal]

Every Feat? Does this count race specific feats and anything from Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Incarnum, etc? I'm pretty sure he could qualify for a ridiculous number of PrCs just by second level. Even restricting the character to commoner their versatility would be absurd, way more than what a rogue, or early level wizard could do. Just the dragonmarked Eberron abilities alone would make them abusable. Also, if we include taking a feat at first level as qualifying for the next one, we can basically go down any feat tree that doesn't require BAB or skills.

[mrcarter11]

I'd have to find it again, but at you can chain feats to gain 9th level spells. I think there's a build something like Arcane Fighter that does it with all the fighter feats..

So yes, you give them 9th level spells, they are now more powerful then a 6th level character.

[Jack_Simth]

I'd have to find it again, but at you can chain feats to gain 9th level spells. I think there's a build something like Arcane Fighter that does it with all the fighter feats..

So yes, you give them 9th level spells, they are now more powerful then a 6th level character.
At that level of optimization, they could have pretty much all the (non-Epic) spells. Caster level of 1 for them all (well, OK, it could be higher for certain spells, such as Summoning spells), low save DC's, and very few spell slots, but yes, all the spells.

[Diovid]

Optimizing a Commoner in this case probably looks something like:

Step 1: Use a race with a bonus to Cha or Int (or with a bonus to useful skills or with extra skill points).
Step 2: Take traits which boost social skills or Use Magic Device.
Step 3: Make Cha and Int it's highest stats.
Step 4: Use feats to gain social skills and Use Magic Device as class skills.
Step 5: Use feats to further enhance those skills (feats like Skill Focus, Animal Affinity, Inside Connection, Wanderer's Diplomacy, Sociable Personality, Nymph's Kiss etc).
Step 6: Invest skill points in those skills.
???
Profit

Note that the Primay Contact feat can be used to gain a skill rank of 5 for a single skill.

As for how succesful it would be? No clue. With such a high number of feats it becomes a chore to find out.

[mrcarter11]

At that level of optimization, they could have pretty much all the (non-Epic) spells. Caster level of 1 for them all (well, OK, it could be higher for certain spells, such as Summoning spells), low save DC's, and very few spell slots, but yes, all the spells.

I was just throwing it out there. I admit it might be a bit more optimized then the OP meant, but it's still something you would have access to with all the feats. And the DC's while low, aren't important in terms of buffs which could also get scary.

[Dr.Epic]

Feats:
Every feat in the game that a level 1 character could qualify for.

What about feats that stack? Can he take those multiple times, if so, guess who takes toughness like a bajillion times?*

*And in case you're not a math student, 3 hp times a bajillion is a lot. Like 3 bajillion a lot.

[Invader]

Of course you always have the dragonwrought kobolds than in turn take all the epic level feats without prerequisites as well.

[dextercorvia]

Well based on this, your defense will be incredibly strong. For example, Psionic Talent is going to give you something different each time, so you can take it N times. Follow that up with Psionic Body for 2(N+M) hp where M is the number of other Psionic Feats that are available.

Lots of feats increase saving throws and skill checks.

As was mentioned, there are feats which grant some forms of spellcasting. There is a feat chain in dragon magazine (I'm not sure if it made it into the compendium) that gives you turn undead.

[Zonugal]

How strong do you think a character like this would be?

Commoner 1
Race = Your Choice
Stats = Elite Array arranged as you choose
Normal Starting Wealth

Feats:
Every feat in the game that a level 1 character could qualify for. Feats are taken in an order and feats can work as per-requisites for other feats. (Lets also say they doesn't have to take any feats they don't want and that they can take a feat multiple times only if it does something different each time. Hidden talent can be taken for every power in the game, but Wild Talent can only be taken once. )

Materials Allowed:
All official books. No magazines.

~

How strong would this character actually be? Is there any reason that they would be much more powerful than a mildly optimized level 6 caster or ToB character?

You'd end up with a defensive titan.

Endless Toughness, Improved Natural Armor & Roll With It will make them very durable.

[Jack_Simth]

Well based on this, your defense will be incredibly strong. For example, Psionic Talent is going to give you something different each time, so you can take it N times. Follow that up with Psionic Body for 2(N+M) hp where M is the number of other Psionic Feats that are available.

Lots of feats increase saving throws and skill checks.

As was mentioned, there are feats which grant some forms of spellcasting. There is a feat chain in dragon magazine (I'm not sure if it made it into the compendium) that gives you turn undead.
... which you then combine with Heighten Spell, Divine Metamagic(Heighten Spell), Earth Power (to push above 9th), Extra Spell, and Extra Slot to get 9th level spell slots and spells known. ALL THE SPELLS. Spontaneously.

Combine with reserve feats, and you even have an amount of endurance - that commoner-1 has a Large elemental as a standard action every round, and can deal 9d6 supernatural fire damage at-will as a standard action (reflex half), or 9d6 acid damage within 45 feet as a ranged touch attack. Oh yes, and 45 foot magic detection at-will....

And, of course, the psionic feats + Psionic Body for HP.

With a bit of work, he could be a reasonable CR that way.

[Malroth]

How does he get the necessary turn undead attempts without a starting turn pool?

[Jack_Simth]

How does he get the necessary turn undead attempts without a starting turn pool?
Read the last line of what I quoted from dextercorvia.

[dextercorvia]

... which you then combine with Heighten Spell, Divine Metamagic(Heighten Spell), Earth Power (to push above 9th), Extra Spell, and Extra Slot to get 9th level spell slots and spells known. ALL THE SPELLS. Spontaneously.

Combine with reserve feats, and you even have an amount of endurance - that commoner-1 has a Large elemental as a standard action every round, and can deal 9d6 supernatural fire damage at-will as a standard action (reflex half), or 9d6 acid damage within 45 feet as a ranged touch attack. Oh yes, and 45 foot magic detection at-will....

And, of course, the psionic feats + Psionic Body for HP.

With a bit of work, he could be a reasonable CR that way.

Thanks for finishing my thought. I had to run, and hit submit before I got there, but that pretty much covers it. Worship the entire pantheon, and take Arcane Disciple (all of them). Take Magical Training (Sorcerer), and Extra Spell (all of them, but at least Miracle). The rules as stated limit you to only one instance of Extra Slot granting a 9th (you can also take it once each for a 0th-8th level slot). So, be a Dragonwrought Kobold and take Improved Spell Capacity N times. That will give you one each of 10th-(N+9)th level spell slots. Since you only have one slot per level, you never hit the maximum on Arcane Disciple.

You can also take several bloodline feats, and Mother Cyst for other spells known. Take all of the metamagic, reserve feats, and things like Spell Thematics to improve your CL.

[Volthawk]

He'll have...quite a bit from the various subsytems. He'll be able to shape every soulmeld in the game, along with quite a bit of essentia from all of their incarnum feats; from ToB he'll have 3 manuevers and all stances they qualify for, along with extra abilities from feats that require those manuevers, giving him a bit of skirmish-type stuff (including, since apparently he gets turn undead, the ability to heal himself with TU); binding gives him the ability to bind vestiges of up to 3rd level, getting two abilities from it.

He'll also be quite the mutant, with Aberrant feats giving a variety of abilities (notably limited flight and a reach increase. Oh, and he doesn't have to worry about the state his food is in - so long as it's organic, he can eat it). Planar heritage feats give another few goodies depending on the choice of heritage (as you can only have one of these), notably aligned attacks if an outer plane is chosen.

Similarly, Abyssal Heritor feats give another variety of abilities (things that stand out include DR/lawful, bonus damage vs lawfuls, the ability to make untrained Knowledge (the planes) and Spellcraft checks with a bonus, floating insight bonuses and the ability to sicken or fascinate those that look at you).

If they also satisfy the pact requirement of Devil-Touched feats (I guess you could have a pact in backstory time to qualify at level 1, I dunno, these ones I'm not too sure about), he gets constant natural armour and Intimidate boosts, as well as Darkvision and three limited abilities - one gives a simple +2 to a qualifying roll, another gives blindsight for a few rounds and the third is a dazing ability.

EDIT: Oh, and since Dragontouched gives them access to Draconic feats, he'll have a few little boosts every time they use these spells people are saying he gets, including a short period of flight, as well as the ability to convert spells and turn undead attempts into area of effect damage and even more skill boosts (seriously, this guy has so many Spot boosts, for example - pretty much all of these feat chains has one to boost Spot and give Darkvision).

Oh, and Draconic, Incarnum and Aberrant feats all have their own version of Psionic Body for even more hp.

EDIT2: Oh, and there's also Luck feats for being able to reroll a few things. And there's also that feat from Drow of the Underdark that gives poison use.

[dextercorvia]

He can take the Maneuver feats, but he doesn't have the IL to choose a maneuver.

[Slipperychicken]

1. Get 50 xp. Bullseye a womprat from 500 yards, or do some good roleplaying, or whatever you're doing at 1st level.

2. Manifest Psychic Reformation.There's got to be a way.

3. RE-ASSIGN ALL THE FEATS

4. ???

5. PROFIT!

[Coidzor]

Well, let's see what just the core and psionics would get ala the SRD.

The main assumption that I'm going to make is that things like toughness that can be acquired ad nauseum are limited to one iteration, since that seemed to be implied but not stated in the OP.

Feats gained:
For sure:
Acrobatic
Agile
Alertness
Animal Affinity
Armor Proficiency (Light)
Armor Proficiency (Medium)
Armor Proficiency (Heavy)
Athletic
Augment Summoning
Combat Casting
Combat Reflexes
Deceitful
Deft Hands
Diligent
Endurance
Diehard
Eschew Materials
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (all iterations)
Improved Initiative
Improved Unarmed Strike
Investigator
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Magical Aptitude
Martial Weapon Proficiency (all iterations)
Negotiator
Nimble Fingers
Persuasive
Point Blank Shot
Far Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Reload
Run
Self-Sufficient
Shield Proficiency
Improved Shield Bash
Tower Shield Proficiency,
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Skill Focus (all)
Spell Focus (all)
Greater Spell Focus (all)
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Stealthy
Toughness
Track
Empower Spell
Enlarge Spell
Extend Spell
Heighten Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Widen Spell
Autonomous
Open Minded
Psionic Affinity
Burrowing Power
Chain Power
Delay Power
Empower Power
Enlarge Power
Extend Power
Maximize Power
Opportunity Power
Quicken Power
Split Psionic Ray
Twin Power
Unconditional Power
Widen Power
Psionic Talent
Psionic Body
Psionic Shot
Psionic Endowment
Greater Psionic Endowment
Overchannel
Talented
Body Fuel
Power Penetration
Greater Power Penetration
Boost Construct
Combat Manifestation
Wild Talent
Hidden Talent


Depending upon distribution of the elite array:
Combat Expertise
Improved Disarm
Improved Feint
Improved Trip
Dodge
Mobility
Deflect Arrows
Improved Grapple
Snatch Arrows
Rapid Shot
Power Attack
Cleave
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Overrun
Improved Sunder
Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Defense
Chaotic Mind
Hostile Mind
Mind Over Body
Psionic Hole
Rapid Metabolism
Sidestep Charge
Stand Still
Speed Of Thought
Psionic Charge
Up The Walls
Psionic Weapon
Psionic Fist
Psionic Dodge
Narrow Mind
Focused Sunder
Inquisitor



Depending upon skill ranks:
Mounted Combat
Mounted Archery
Ride-By Attack
Spirited Charge
Trample


That's +3 to all skills and +5 to most of them, +27 hp at minimum with the possibility of getting more and he's almost certain to have 30-something or even 40-something HP just going with SRD materials....

Some ok tricks that could be done aside from the hidden talent fun.

Taking only the SRD into account I'd say maybe about roughly equivalent to a 2nd or 3rd level character.

[Amechra]

I would also like to add the following rule to the OP:

This only allows feats that any character would be able to take with the 3-4 feats (depending on whether or not they are Human) that a 1st level character has.

Basically, if you couldn't qualify for it by 1st level anyway with the number of feats you have at 1st level, you can't have it.

Plus, the 9th level spells one doesn't work, since the feats are (presumably) all gained simultaneously.

[TuggyNE]

I would also like to add the following rule to the OP:

This only allows feats that any character would be able to take with the 3-4 feats (depending on whether or not they are Human) that a 1st level character has.

Basically, if you couldn't qualify for it by 1st level anyway with the number of feats you have at 1st level, you can't have it.

Plus, the 9th level spells one doesn't work, since the feats are (presumably) all gained simultaneously.

This limits the trivial cheese, but only really adds an extra step or so, namely "retrain useless feats to useless ones". Of course, that may well require resources the character does not immediately possess, but there are probably ways around that as well.

[HunterOfJello]

Every Feat? Does this count race specific feats and anything from Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Incarnum, etc? I'm pretty sure he could qualify for a ridiculous number of PrCs just by second level. Even restricting the character to commoner their versatility would be absurd, way more than what a rogue, or early level wizard could do. Just the dragonmarked Eberron abilities alone would make them abusable. Also, if we include taking a feat at first level as qualifying for the next one, we can basically go down any feat tree that doesn't require BAB or skills.

Yes! That's the whole point. Would this character be just a ridiculously versatile character, or would something about him make him go far beyond that? Dragonmarked feats from Eberron are limited by race and you can't have more than one of each type, so there are limits on those. You can gain all sorts of feats from long feat trees (hence why I said you could take feats in the order of your choice), but how good actually are those feats that don't require BAB, a level, high enough skill ranks, or stats higher than an elite array?


Well, let's see what just the core and psionics would get ala the SRD.

The main assumption that I'm going to make is that things like toughness that can be acquired ad nauseum are limited to one iteration, since that seemed to be implied but not stated in the OP.


That is what I mean, though maybe I should have been more explicit about it. Feats that could ordinarily taken multiple times like Toughness, but do only one thing can only be taken once. Feats that can ordinarily be taken multiple times, but do something different each time, like Skill Focus (______) can be taken as many times as possible. Hit points will still go over 200 hp from the Incarnum and Psionic Body feats, but Toughness * Infinity is not allowed because that's just dumb.

I also put in that feats can be taken in an order chosen by the creator so that feats can be taken in chains.



Feats gained:
For sure:
Acrobatic
Agile
Alertness
Animal Affinity
Armor Proficiency (Light)
Armor Proficiency (Medium)
Armor Proficiency (Heavy)
Athletic
Augment Summoning
Combat Casting
Combat Reflexes
Deceitful
Deft Hands
Diligent
Endurance
Diehard
Eschew Materials
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (all iterations)
Improved Initiative
Improved Unarmed Strike
Investigator
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Magical Aptitude
Martial Weapon Proficiency (all iterations)
Negotiator
Nimble Fingers
Persuasive
Point Blank Shot
Far Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Reload
Run
Self-Sufficient
Shield Proficiency
Improved Shield Bash
Tower Shield Proficiency,
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Skill Focus (all)
Spell Focus (all)
Greater Spell Focus (all)
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Stealthy
Toughness
Track
Empower Spell
Enlarge Spell
Extend Spell
Heighten Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Widen Spell
Autonomous
Open Minded
Psionic Affinity
Burrowing Power
Chain Power
Delay Power
Empower Power
Enlarge Power
Extend Power
Maximize Power
Opportunity Power
Quicken Power
Split Psionic Ray
Twin Power
Unconditional Power
Widen Power
Psionic Talent
Psionic Body
Psionic Shot
Psionic Endowment
Greater Psionic Endowment
Overchannel
Talented
Body Fuel
Power Penetration
Greater Power Penetration
Boost Construct
Combat Manifestation
Wild Talent
Hidden Talent


Depending upon distribution of the elite array:
Combat Expertise
Improved Disarm
Improved Feint
Improved Trip
Dodge
Mobility
Deflect Arrows
Improved Grapple
Snatch Arrows
Rapid Shot
Power Attack
Cleave
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Overrun
Improved Sunder
Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Defense
Chaotic Mind
Hostile Mind
Mind Over Body
Psionic Hole
Rapid Metabolism
Sidestep Charge
Stand Still
Speed Of Thought
Psionic Charge
Up The Walls
Psionic Weapon
Psionic Fist
Psionic Dodge
Narrow Mind
Focused Sunder
Inquisitor



Depending upon skill ranks:
Mounted Combat
Mounted Archery
Ride-By Attack
Spirited Charge
Trample


That's +3 to all skills and +5 to most of them, +27 hp at minimum with the possibility of getting more and he's almost certain to have 30-something or even 40-something HP just going with SRD materials....

Some ok tricks that could be done aside from the hidden talent fun.

Taking only the SRD into account I'd say maybe about roughly equivalent to a 2nd or 3rd level character.


Wow! That's an impressive list. You really think that would only match up to a 2nd or 3rd level character? Having around 40 hp and every combat feat in the SRD would make a very handy melee character. They would also be quite an effective skill monkey with that many boosts to skills.

If you add in Incarnum and Psionic feats, even ignoring power and spell usage, the character would go past 200 hp, gain better saves, and have tons of bonuses to all sorts of things making him decent in melee combat.


I would also like to add the following rule to the OP:

This only allows feats that any character would be able to take with the 3-4 feats (depending on whether or not they are Human) that a 1st level character has.

Basically, if you couldn't qualify for it by 1st level anyway with the number of feats you have at 1st level, you can't have it.

Plus, the 9th level spells one doesn't work, since the feats are (presumably) all gained simultaneously.

No. Sorry, but just no.

The train of thought that I had been following was this: "How strong actually are the basic feats in the game? There are all sorts of feats that are beyond amazing, but most of them have level, skill rank, or BAB requirements. What could you really get from ALL of the feats from level 1?"

This was a mix of the "Giving feats at every level" thread and the E6 game style adapted down to E1. How strong is a commoner with every feat in the game (excluding infinite repeats)?



Step 2: Take traits which boost social skills or Use Magic Device.

Note that the Primay Contact feat can be used to gain a skill rank of 5 for a single skill.



That's a very good point to bring up. I'm not sure which skill you would want to get to Skill Rank 5, but depending on which one it is, it could be highly beneficial... or just pointless.

I think there may be enough feats to get UMD and social skills up high enough to be actually worthwhile.

Shape Soulmeld (Mage's Spectacles) [4+2], Skill Focus (UMD) [3], Dragontouched, Shape Soulmeld (Elder Spirit) [4+2], Incarnum feats to gain a bit of essentia, Nymph's Kiss (if good) [2], and Magical Aptitude [2] would boost UMD up to +19 and allow easy use of wands.

As long as the character can get their hands on some wands, they can now do some very handy magic.

Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate would probably be even easier to boost up.

[Randomguy]

Pretty darn strong: A lot of feats only require other feats, so, for example:
Abberant blood *7
Bestial Hide
Durable form
Starspawn
Deepspawn
Waterspawn
Inhuman reach
Inhuman vision
Scavenging Gullet
and Warped Mind.

That's 16 abberant feats, which gets you +32 hp, +8 natural armour, 2 tentacle attacks, +8 to will saves, reach, limited flight, water breathing, Darkvision out to 80 feet, +16 to spot (up to +19 with skill focus), resist cold 10, and probably some other things I missed.

This comes with a -16 to Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information and Handle Animal, though, but that's offset to a -13 thanks to skill focus.

And that's not counting other heritage feats, like fey heritage, fiendish heritage (although put together those two just boost saves a bit and give DR 3/cold iron and resist Fire and Acid 6).

Draconic feats (which you can take thanks to Dragontouched if you've got 11 cha) give you a huge bonus: most of them are just to stack with other draconic feats since you need to actually cast to use them, but the ones from races of the dragon still get you resistance to an element, +1 natural armour, claw attacks and 2*number of draconic feats more hp, which is 32, since there are 16 that you can qualify for, counting the Dragon Magic ones.
The Dragon magic draconic feats grant you +16 to all knowledge checks, +16 to listen search and spot, blindsense out to 20 feet and another 60 feet of darkvision (this only stacks with the abberant darkvision if you take it first, so do that). And another few bonuses if you're allowed to take both versions of draconic heritage, but I think the one from races of the dragon overrides the other one.

And then there are 8 other easy to qualify for Abyssal Heritor feats, plus another 3 you get int 13 wis 13 and cha 15, but let's assume you don't for now:

That's +5 to damage, immune to 9 negative levels a day, DR 9/cold iron, +5 to natural armour, another +8 to search and spot (That's +43 to spot now), +24 to jump checks, and +1d6 to attacks from lawful creatures.

Overall, plus some other related feats, that's about 71+con hit points (including thoughness), 24 AC without any armour (this could probably be pushed up higher), DR 12/cold iron, 2 tentacle attacks, 2 claw attacks, plus weapon attacks, darkvision to 140 feet, +43 spot, resist fire and acid 6 and something else 16 (from draconic heritage), blindsense to 20 feet, +37 to jump checks (including skill focus and dragon wings) a tail attack, ignore the first 9 negative levels, and a few other things.

And that's not counting most other feats, or the heritage feats that I missed that might be in Fiendish Codex 2. So overall, this commoner is pretty strong.

[Diovid]

That's a very good point to bring up. I'm not sure which skill you would want to get to Skill Rank 5, but depending on which one it is, it could be highly beneficial... or just pointless.
Exactly. For the mini-diplomancer I described, having a Bluff rank of 5 is highly beneficial because it gives a +2 bonus to 4 other skills. There are also a few feats which require having 5 ranks in a skill but I don't know if any of them are worth it.

[Coidzor]

Wow! That's an impressive list. You really think that would only match up to a 2nd or 3rd level character? Having around 40 hp and every combat feat in the SRD would make a very handy melee character. They would also be quite an effective skill monkey with that many boosts to skills.

Well, I got too tired to really go through and double-check the numbers properly to get a real good feel for what his HP would be with a melee-build elite array. Maybe 3-5th, but I just don't see him as an equal challenge to a 6th level character based solely on the SRD.

He's got flexibility, but going only by the SRD stuff, his numbers are going to be good, but not *that* good given his chassis and elite array. Water Orc only gets him 19 strength if he's STR>CON>DEX. So he's got breadth but not depth and threat level is generally more dependent upon depth than breadth because the action economy makes certain tactics more profitable for him than others. He'd still have to choose between combat maneuvers that he'd use each round and what equipment he'd have on him for a given combat that would allow him to best make use of his chosen set of combat maneuvers and would probably have to rely on tripping and/or mounted charging as his primary approach.

His skill feats give versatility, but not a whole lot of in-combat utility as a challenge unless I'm missing a lot.

I haven't fully thought through the SRD's Psionics feats because I'm not clear on whether Hidden Talent for all 1st level powers is still on the table because RAW it doesn't seem to be able to be taken more than once, which leaves one with a single power known, which is still pretty handy. So it's quite likely that I've overlooked something here, especially since I only completed step one of about three.


If you add in Incarnum and Psionic feats, even ignoring power and spell usage, the character would go past 200 hp, gain better saves, and have tons of bonuses to all sorts of things making him decent in melee combat.

Well, I did start to make a framework with the SRD and then got too tired to continue, haha. I figured maybe doing that would help give a better picture of what plugging things on from other sourcebooks would do.

Incarnum's going to be nice, especially with the psionic-incarnum interplay, but he's still stuck with a single HD.


This comes with a -16 to Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information and Handle Animal, though, but that's offset to a -13 thanks to skill focus.

Minor nitpick, but Investigator, Deceitful, Animal Affinity, and Negotiator will take those to a -11 with that plus the SRD. Still, it's a bit of a hole for a diplomancer to try to get back out of, but I'm sure there's a way.

[Randomguy]

Minor nitpick, but Investigator, Deceitful, Animal Affinity, and Negotiator will take those to a -11 with that plus the SRD. Still, it's a bit of a hole for a diplomancer to try to get back out of, but I'm sure there's a way.

I suppose taking all of the heritage feats would be better for a melee based character than a diplomancer, especially since few people would want to talk to a monstrosity with three pairs of wings, claws, tentacles, glowing eyes and a shell covered in scales. It's very minmaxy: It dumps almost all non combat related things.

[Endarire]

Psionic Body + Psionic Talent a large number of times = lotsa HP!

[Radar]

I suppose taking all of the heritage feats would be better for a melee based character than a diplomancer, especially since few people would want to talk to a monstrosity with three pairs of wings, claws, tentacles, glowing eyes and a shell covered in scales. It's very minmaxy: It dumps almost all non combat related things.
Magical Talent + Precautious Apprentice for Alter Self would solve the problem unless those feat chains change your type.

Question: can you potentially take Precautious Apprentice many times to gain access to different spells (each usable once per day)?

[Randomguy]

Magical Talent + Precautious Apprentice for Alter Self would solve the problem unless those feat chains change your type.

Question: can you potentially take Precautious Apprentice many times to gain access to different spells (each usable once per day)?

No: if a feat can be taken more than once, it's specified in the description.

[dextercorvia]

Psionic Body + Psionic Talent a large number of times = lotsa HP!

I wonder if anyone else has said that... :smallsmile:


Well based on this, your defense will be incredibly strong. For example, Psionic Talent is going to give you something different each time, so you can take it N times. Follow that up with Psionic Body for 2(N+M) hp where M is the number of other Psionic Feats that are available.

[Flickerdart]

Magical Talent + Precautious Apprentice for Alter Self would solve the problem unless those feat chains change your type.

Question: can you potentially take Precautious Apprentice many times to gain access to different spells (each usable once per day)?
Precocious (unusually advanced) Apprentice. Not only is Precautious not a word, even if it were, it wouldn't make sense in the context - what does casting more powerful spells with a chance of failure have to do with caution?

[ojayaba]

How strong do you think a character like this would be?

Commoner 1
Race = Your Choice
Stats = Elite Array arranged as you choose
Normal Starting Wealth
...


so if i start with a race that has racial HD and a high BAB i would then be able to take feats with a BAB pre req? or perhaps a race with magic? or psionics? incarnum? just thinking this could get alot more broken very fast by picking a rude race to start with...

[Slipperychicken]

so if i start with a race that has racial HD and a high BAB i would then be able to take feats with a BAB pre req? or perhaps a race with magic? or psionics? incarnum? just thinking this could get alot more broken very fast by picking a rude race to start with...

Level 1 Tarrasque Commoner? :smallbiggrin:

[ojayaba]

Level 1 Tarrasque Commoner? :smallbiggrin:

thus my question about race... because thats just RUDE!

[TuggyNE]

so if i start with a race that has racial HD and a high BAB i would then be able to take feats with a BAB pre req? or perhaps a race with magic? or psionics? incarnum? just thinking this could get alot more broken very fast by picking a rude race to start with...

I'd assume ECL 1 Commoner.

[Bakkan]

Just to throw in my vote, the 5 ranks from Favored in House should be in a Knowledge skill so that our commoner qualifies for Knowledge Devotion. With all those bonuses to Knowledge checks floating around, this could significantly increase his combat ability.

[Randomguy]

Question: Is it possible to take the Open Minded feat until you've got 4 ranks in every skill? you can't exceed the normal maximum number of skill points in a skill, so it's not infinite.

[tonberrian]

Well, the Dragonwrought Kobold build has really nice stats. Even like 10x copies of Great [Stat] would be really Great.

[Slipperychicken]

Question: Is it possible to take the Open Minded feat until you've got 4 ranks in every skill? you can't exceed the normal maximum number of skill points in a skill, so it's not infinite.

Our Commoner has now maxed ALL THE SKILLS at level 1.



Special
You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you immediately gain another 5 skill points.

Seriously, this dude now has maximum ranks in every skill ever. Including every imaginable Craft, Perform, and Profession skill. It's safe to say he won't ever be unemployed for very long. He'll also be loads of fun at parties, so I count that as a win :smalltongue:

EDIT: Herp derp, didn't read the OP

[Flickerdart]

Our Commoner has now maxed ALL THE SKILLS at level 1.



Seriously, this dude now has maximum ranks in every skill ever. Including every imaginable Craft, Perform, and Profession skill. It's safe to say he won't ever be unemployed for very long. He'll also be loads of fun at parties, so I count that as a win :smalltongue:
Open-Minded has the same effect every time, so he only gets it once.

[SowZ]

Don't forget spell-touched feats! Anyway, still super vulnerable to level drain or anything that affects creatures based on HD. But with over 200 HP, lotsa manooovers, lots of powers, good saves and skills, spells, etc. etc. I'd say he might be as useful as a sixth level dude. (More useful in many scenarios, but more vulnerable, too.)

[Endarire]

Assuming this ECL1 Commoner has every feat possible, how soon does he get outclassed by a 'real' character, like a typical Warblade or Wizard?

[ojayaba]

why would we even have to assume he was an ECL 1? there are way to many feats in mainstream books that are specific to races with LA of more then +1 such as a goliath or a tiefling, aasimar...

[Slipperychicken]

why would we even have to assume he was an ECL 1? there are way to many feats in mainstream books that are specific to races with LA of more then +1 such as a goliath or a tiefling, aasimar...

It follows to the spirit of the OP, which was to determine the power of feats in D&D. We're using a Commoner1 to isolate the feats from benefits like class features and racial qualities, so that we know every power this guy has comes only from feats.

[ojayaba]

It follows to the spirit of the OP, which was to determine the power of feats in D&D. We're using a Commoner1 to isolate the feats from benefits like class features and racial qualities, so that we know every power this guy has comes only from feats.

but in doing so you are neglecting various feats because they are race specific or racial ability specific. although I guess after taking a lot of the feats out there you would then qualify for some of the feats that I was thinking about anyway...

[dextercorvia]

Assuming this ECL1 Commoner has every feat possible, how soon does he get outclassed by a 'real' character, like a typical Warblade or Wizard?

Epic Levels.

Dragonwrought Kobold Commoner 1 with N* castings of Miracle (and some others -- like Shapechange, Celerity, and Timestop) per day with any possible combinations of Metamagic feats applied, who has more HP than most 20th level casters.

You are most vulnerable to Dispel Magic and its relatives, but the best defense against that is just to make sure you can't be targeted anyway.

* where N can be something like 100 times the number of standard actions you could take in a day.

[SowZ]

Epic Levels.

Dragonwrought Kobold Commoner 1 with N* castings of Miracle (and some others -- like Shapechange, Celerity, and Timestop) per day with any possible combinations of Metamagic feats applied, who has more HP than most 20th level casters.

You are most vulnerable to Dispel Magic and its relatives, but the best defense against that is just to make sure you can't be targeted anyway.

* where N can be something like 100 times the number of standard actions you could take in a day.

Since the OP is trying to determine the power of the basic feats, I think this is against its spirit.

[dextercorvia]

Since the OP is trying to determine the power of the basic feats, I think this is against its spirit.

What's your basis?


Every feat in the game that a level 1 character could qualify for.

[Flickerdart]

Anyway, still super vulnerable to level drain or anything that affects creatures based on HD.
One of the feat stacks he gets allows him to ignore 9 negative levels, so he's fine there.

[Lans]

What are you going to use with the feat that you normally get at level 1? :smallbiggrin:

[Randomguy]

Oh, hey, I don't think anyone mentioned the spell like ability feats from complete arcane yet:

On top of everything else, he gets: arcane mark, message, comprehend languages, detect magic, detect secret doors, read magic, cause fear, ghost sound, touch of fatigue, dancing lights, prestidigitation, unseen servant, chill touch, ray of frost, resistance, mage hand, open/close and Tenser’s floating disk as spell-like abilities 1/day. That's more spells than a level 1 wizard! Not particularly good spells, though.

[Spuddles]

1. Get 50 xp. Bullseye a womprat from 500 yards, or do some good roleplaying, or whatever you're doing at 1st level.

2. Manifest Psychic Reformation.There's got to be a way.

3. RE-ASSIGN ALL THE FEATS

4. ???

5. PROFIT!

Psy reform has pretty explicit language that when repicking feats, you arenunder the same constraints you were when you first picked them. Which means you lrobably cant shuffly them all into toughness.

[ojayaba]

Oh, hey, I don't think anyone mentioned the spell like ability feats from complete arcane yet:

On top of everything else, he gets: arcane mark, message, comprehend languages, detect magic, detect secret doors, read magic, cause fear, ghost sound, touch of fatigue, dancing lights, prestidigitation, unseen servant, chill touch, ray of frost, resistance, mage hand, open/close and Tenser’s floating disk as spell-like abilities 1/day. That's more spells than a level 1 wizard! Not particularly good spells, though.

are there any feats that increase uses of spell like abilities?

[dextercorvia]

are there any feats that increase uses of spell like abilities?

Magic in the Blood. It only works on racial SLAs though.

[ojayaba]

Magic in the Blood. It only works on racial SLAs though.

why only racial? :(
would be funny if any :P

[Lans]

Assuming this ECL1 Commoner has every feat possible, how soon does he get outclassed by a 'real' character, like a typical Warblade or Wizard?

From what I've seen so far about level 8 before he's about even with the warblade at fighting. Then he has a bunch of miscellaneous stuff that makes him better outside of combat.


Edit Improved multiattack with two tentacles, claws, a gore and maybe a bite, and an unarmed strike, 15'-20 reach with a +7 or so to hit and 12 to damage, before strength. Can take -4 to ac to get +2 to hit twice.

I think he has about the appropriate hp for an 8th level character, low saves, about +3, can go to +8 with incarnum, has the ability to get +4 to a save as an immediate action, 11/law, 3/bludgeoning for damage reduction


Oh, hey, I don't think anyone mentioned the spell like ability feats from complete arcane yet:

On top of everything else, he gets: arcane mark, message, comprehend languages, detect magic, detect secret doors, read magic, cause fear, ghost sound, touch of fatigue, dancing lights, prestidigitation, unseen servant, chill touch, ray of frost, resistance, mage hand, open/close and Tenser’s floating disk as spell-like abilities 1/day. That's more spells than a level 1 wizard! Not particularly good spells, though.
Well they are pretty good fuel for spell fire :)

Outside of that they add out of combat utility that could be fun.



Edit again- A character can only have 1 regional feat, outside of cheese involving magical training, I think mind over body is a good choice, 1 insight bonus to AC, and 1 hp for every metamagic feat you have.

[SowZ]

What's your basis?

"How strong actually are the basic feats in the game? There are all sorts of feats that are beyond amazing, but most of them have level, skill rank, or BAB requirements. What could you really get from ALL of the feats from level 1?"

Epic level feats don't seem to fit what he is going for and are hardly basic feats. He wants to know about basic feats without level restrictions and such. Bypassing the level restriction with an obscure, probably unintended kobold feat doesn't accomplish his intended goal.

[dextercorvia]

"How strong actually are the basic feats in the game? There are all sorts of feats that are beyond amazing, but most of them have level, skill rank, or BAB requirements. What could you really get from ALL of the feats from level 1?"

Epic level feats don't seem to fit what he is going for and are hardly basic feats. He wants to know about basic feats without level restrictions and such. Bypassing the level restriction with an obscure, probably unintended kobold feat doesn't accomplish his intended goal.

That is not in the OP, and in the post where he says that, he turns around and asks for all the feats that could be qualified for again.

Even without Epic Feats, you can get a spell slot of every level, and a pretty strong list of spells known. Clever selection there can let you power every reserve feat with a 9th level spell. That both helps your poor CL, and reduces your reliance on it. On top of the hundreds of HP, decent saves, some immunities, and skills (Jack of All Trades+all of the skill boosters), you are definitely more powerful than an 8th level character.

[SowZ]

That is not in the OP, and in the post where he says that, he turns around and asks for all the feats that could be qualified for again.

Even without Epic Feats, you can get a spell slot of every level, and a pretty strong list of spells known. Clever selection there can let you power every reserve feat with a 9th level spell. That both helps your poor CL, and reduces your reliance on it. On top of the hundreds of HP, decent saves, some immunities, and skills (Jack of All Trades+all of the skill boosters), you are definitely more powerful than an 8th level character.

That's fair when you disqualify epic feats. But using a debatable way to get epic feats beats the purpose of 'basic feats a level on character can get.' Almost never could a level one character get an epic feat even with all feat chains.

[Coidzor]

It's more fun if you don't count the epic stuff and infinite loops and end it there but rather note them and continue on, I'd wager.

[Karoht]

I almost think we should turn this into a 1 level dip prestige class.
Name: Old Spice Guy
Occupation: Old Spice Guy
Class: Old Spice Guy
Appearance: Old Spice Guy
Requirements: Kill the previous Old Spice Guy in a Three-Legged Thumb Wrestling Match, while riding an Elephant Riding a Donkey down the Southern Slope of Mount Everest, while Yoddling and Throat Singing "Gungnam Style" and repainting 'The Last Supper' with one's leg, while rescuing a kitten with one's spare arm, while undoing a woman's braw with one's teeth.
Also, be of the alignment, Lawful Awesome.


Or perhaps, name it after the TvTrope, "Took a level in badass"
Look it up.

[Coidzor]

I almost think we should turn this into a 1 level dip prestige class.
Name: Old Spice Guy
Occupation: Old Spice Guy
Class: Old Spice Guy
Appearance: Old Spice Guy
Requirements: Kill the previous Old Spice Guy in a Three-Legged Thumb Wrestling Match, while riding an Elephant Riding a Donkey down the Southern Slope of Mount Everest, while Yoddling and Throat Singing "Gungnam Style" and repainting 'The Last Supper' with one's leg, while rescuing a kitten with one's spare arm, while undoing a woman's braw with one's teeth.
Also, be of the alignment, Lawful Awesome.


Or perhaps, name it after the TvTrope, "Took a level in badass"
Look it up.

Heh. The monsters are now diamonds. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175468)

Badass (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198399)

AKA obligatory links.

[dextercorvia]

It's more fun if you don't count the epic stuff and infinite loops and end it there but rather note them and continue on, I'd wager.

True enough. You get quite a bit of versatility out of the Reserve Feats.

[Lans]

Doing some math on how much hp he has
32 from aberant toughness
32 from psionic body and the srd's psionic feats. Maybe more depending on character stats
At least 14 hp from CP's psionic feats. Another 18 if he takes astral construct with his hidden talent feat. One psionic feat from MoI, maybe more depending on skills
4 base
3 toughness
35 from the metamagic feats in the srd, lords of madness, and completes and mind overbody
About 28hp from incarnum body

So about 150+con hp, or about as durable as a 13th level fighter type. With completes, MoI, srd, and lords of madness