[PF] Cerebremancer

[RFLS]

Hey, playground, I'm gearing up to (finally) actually play in a campaign instead of running it. The power level of the group is low (we have a guy playing an archer with 1 level in everything), so I'm considering having fun with the Cerebremancer PrC. Obviously wizard/psion entry. What recommendations would you make to tone the build up? No 3.5 material is allowed *grumble* Anyway, I'm also looking for a good full progression Arcane PrC to fill out my last 4 levels.

[RFLS]

So, I feel like this is debatable RAW, but does taking the trait Magical Lineage and Heighten Spell allow early entry into Mystic Theurge? Likewise, if I could find a spell/power that's on Psion, Cleric, and Wizard lists, could I go Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Psion 1/Both Dual progression PrCs?

[morkendi]

I played one a while back, I did diviner with precocious apprentice and then keneticist. Did batman style wizard and blasted with psionics as well as other things. Character began to overshadow the rest of the party. Lets you go cerebromancer at lvl 5 if i remember right.

[Blyte]

So, I feel like this is debatable RAW, but does taking the trait Magical Lineage and Heighten Spell allow early entry into Mystic Theurge? Likewise, if I could find a spell/power that's on Psion, Cleric, and Wizard lists, could I go Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Psion 1/Both Dual progression PrCs?


I'd say no on both counts.

you need to at least have a 2nd level spell slot to heighten a spell to 2nd level.

and wiz1,cleric1,psion1 has -- in the 2nd level spell margins.

now I would argue that a dual blooded sorcerer would qualify at 4th level if they had a metamagic feat that could raise a known 1st level spell to utilize one of their available 2nd level spell slots.

besides, heighten doesn't work like other metamagic feats. it's not a level adjustment modifier (which magical lineage would soften by 1), it's simply reassigns the level of the spell to an available higher level spell slot.

edit: sorry meant to say crossblooded sorcerer, not dual blooded

[RFLS]

I think you kind of missed what's going on. You apply Magical Lineage to a first-level spell, and then Heighten it. It's then a second-level spell cast from a first-level slot.

[Blyte]

you cannot heighten it if you don't have a higher level spell slot to assign it to.

you don't heighten +1 or heighten +2 or whatever... you heighten a spell to a higher level slot. there is no metamagical level adjustment modifier applied with heighten, which is what magical lineage reduces.

read the other metamagic feats that assign a level adj modifier, then read heighten, and compare them.

[RFLS]

you cannot heighten it if you don't have a higher level spell slot to assign it to.

you don't heighten +1 or heighten +2 or whatever... you heighten a spell to a higher level slot. there is no metamagical level adjustment modifier applied with heighten, which is what magical lineage reduces.

read the other metamagic feats that assign a level adj modifier, then read heighten, and compare them.

Heighten Spell increases the effective level of the spell /and/ applies a metamagic cost. The two effects are not tied together. Heighten Spell could have been written to increase effective level by 2 and have a metamagic cost of 1.

[grarrrg]

Heighten Spell increases the effective level of the spell /and/ applies a metamagic cost. The two effects are not tied together. Heighten Spell could have been written to increase effective level by 2 and have a metamagic cost of 1.

Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage): Editor's Note:
"Magical Lineage was never intended as a way for you to actually lower a spell's level. It was put in to allow you to reduce the increase from a metamagic feat."

Ask your DM.

[Psyren]

Hey, playground, I'm gearing up to (finally) actually play in a campaign instead of running it. The power level of the group is low (we have a guy playing an archer with 1 level in everything), so I'm considering having fun with the Cerebremancer PrC. Obviously wizard/psion entry. What recommendations would you make to tone the build up?

Just generic advice really. Don't specialize in the same area on both classes (e.g. Seer/Diviner.) Focus on your arcane side; psionics is better at support (e.g. Schism, Temporal Acceleration, Hustle) and doesn't need as many levels to be good at it, while magic is a stronger active/main focus (better at summoning, buffing, battlefield control, and even high-level blasting once metamagic is factored in.) In dangerous situations, use magic to turn invisible, then manifest powers from safety while suppressing your displays to be undetectable. Prioritize items that benefit both sides, e.g. a Headband of Vast Intelligence takes precedence over a Torc of Power Preservation. Magic is better at conjuration, illusion, necromancy, and transmutation (buffs) so consider focusing on one of these areas on the arcane side; psionics is better at action-economy, divination, low/mid-level blasting, and mind-control, so consider those areas for the psionic side.

The Cerebremancer's main strength is its save DCs - you are SAD, so your Int is bound to be a very high stat, and then on top of that you can "augment" your spells via Mind over Magic, which stacks with everything e.g. Spell Focus and Heighten.



Anyway, I'm also looking for a good full progression Arcane PrC to fill out my last 4 levels.

There aren't many of those in PF - but Wizard actually has class features now, so you could just as easily go back to wizard to finish the build and possibly learn a new ability and/or feat.

[grarrrg]

Anyway, I'm also looking for a good full progression Arcane PrC to fill out my last 4 levels.

There aren't many of those in PF - but Wizard actually has class features now, so you could just as easily go back to wizard to finish the build and possibly learn a new ability and/or feat.

Aren't many?
There's only about a dozen or so...

Quick Note: You _might_ be able to swing 5 levels of an Arcane PrC.
Some only require 1st or 2nd level Arcane Casting, so you could go Wizard 2/Psion 3/PrC 1/Cerebremancer 10/PrC +4

Class Dipping Guide/PrC Guide/Common Ability Quick-Ref Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12613046#post12613046)
(It's all the same guide, it kinda spiraled out of control...)
Arcane Casting PrC's with No lost Casting Levels:
[copy/paste]

Arclord of Nex, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Bloatmage, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Cyphermage, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Diabolist, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Genie Binder, 1/2 Bab, 5/5 Casting
Harrower, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Hellknight Signifier, 3/4 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Loremaster, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Magaambyan Arcanist, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Spherewalker, 3/4 Bab, 5/5 Casting
Veiled Illusionist, 1/3 Bab, 10/10 Casting

Blue are ones I recommend for consideration.
Red are ones I do NOT recommend.
Black are either "meh" or Specialized (Blue if that's what you like, Red if not).

Arclord of Nex, the Pre-Reqs kinda kill it, not that great for 4 levels anyway.
Bloatmage, not my cup of tea, and really not all that great, especially for only 4 levels..
Cyphermage, a little too "scroll focused" for my tastes.
Diabolist, if you're 1-step from Lawful Evil, this can get you an Imp Companion (animal companion) based on your Caster Level. Very Nice. The "evilness" might kill it for you though.
Harrower, has potential, but a little Random, and limited uses of the "main" ability. The First level ability is nice, if weak.
Hellknight Signifier, not for this build. You'd need to get Medium Armor Prof, and Arcane Armor Training. OR take a level in a class that DOES get Medium prof. PASS!
Genie Binder, Flavor > Function
Loremaster would be nice, but the Feat Reqs may not work out for you.
Magaambyan Arcanist. This one has potential. You get to add some Druid spells to your Wizard list, and you can re-assign which spells you have "Spell Mastery"d.
Spherewalker is more Flavorful than anything, but is one of only two FULL Arcane with better than 1/2 Bab.
Veiled Illusionist, if you have a good Illusion focus, then GREAT, if not, SKIP IT.

[Psyren]

The feat (and other) prereqs are actually what I meant - psionicists tend to be starved since they have so many good options (e.g. Expanded Knowledge, Psicrystal Affinity etc.) and nice-to-haves (e.g. Psionic Meditation.)

So it's less about there not being any options, and more about the opportunity cost of taking them vs. what you get out of them. If there's a conceptual fit then it would certainly be worthwhile.

[RFLS]

So...I'm not entirely sure what my DM was thinking, but he allowed the cheese, and then allowed this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/cartmanbeck-s-lab/multiclass-archetypes/sacred-thaumaturge-wizard-cleric), and then told me he'd allow a homebrewed version of cerebremancer that would progress divine/psionic casting. I feel like, as far as raw power is concerned, this is the way to go.

[grarrrg]

So...I'm not entirely sure what my DM was thinking, but he allowed the cheese, and then allowed this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/cartmanbeck-s-lab/multiclass-archetypes/sacred-thaumaturge-wizard-cleric), and then told me he'd allow a homebrewed version of cerebremancer that would progress divine/psionic casting. I feel like, as far as raw power is concerned, this is the way to go.

Whoever wrote "that" either needs to re-read how the game works, OR needs to improve his English...I'm really not sure which...
My "favorite part" is the section on how BOTH your INT and WIS give you bonus spell slots.

That class is a big hot mess of over-powered-ness.
Take the Wizard.
Remove the occasional bonus feats.
Add Cleric minus Channeling.
DONE!

If your DM allows it, by all means go crazy.

[RFLS]

Whoever wrote "that" either needs to re-read how the game works, OR needs to improve his English...I'm really not sure which...
My "favorite part" is the section on how BOTH your INT and WIS give you bonus spell slots.

That class is a big hot mess of over-powered-ness.
Take the Wizard.
Remove the occasional bonus feats.
Add Cleric minus Channeling.
DONE!

If your DM allows it, by all means go crazy.

Yeah, no kidding. I'm not entirely sure about how rules-savvy this guy is; he told me that the loss of the spell/day/level meant that my cleric spells would be cast out of equivalent level wizard slots >.< So, I'll be ending with 19th level cleric/wizard casting and 18th level psion casting.

[grarrrg]

Yeah, no kidding. I'm not entirely sure about how rules-savvy this guy is; he told me that the loss of the spell/day/level meant that my cleric spells would be cast out of equivalent level wizard slots >.<

I think what he's TRYING to say, is that your Cleric spells are all treated as 1 level higher, and you have a hard limit of 7th level Cleric spells ("8th" after the +1).
And the "oh, you get 1 less spell slot per level" thing is (partially) negated by the fact you get TWO sets of Bonus Slots from Stats. Virtually invisible at low levels, minor issue at high levels.

[RFLS]

I think what he's TRYING to say, is that your Cleric spells are all treated as 1 level higher, and you have a hard limit of 7th level Cleric spells ("8th" after the +1).
And the "oh, you get 1 less spell slot per level" thing is (partially) negated by the fact you get TWO sets of Bonus Slots from Stats. Virtually invisible at low levels, minor issue at high levels.

Oh, no, my DM ruled that the one thing the author of that class did /right/ (cleric spells are 1 level higher for your slots) was too much of a nerf.

[grarrrg]

Oh, no, my DM ruled that the one thing the author of that class did /right/ (cleric spells are 1 level higher for your slots) was too much of a nerf.

...wut...


Ridiculously cheesy early entry of Wizard 2/Psion 1 for Cerebremancer.
A second/extended/whatever Divine-Cerebremancer to fill out the 7 remaining levels.
9/7/9 arcane/divine/psionic casting with 18+ "caster" level for everything.
Oh, and I don't know if anyone else noticed, but the genius behind the Wizard/Cleric "class" slipped in good Fort Save as well.
About the only thing you DON'T have is good Bab.


....HAVE FUN STORMING THE CASTLE!

[RFLS]

...wut...


Ridiculously cheesy early entry of Wizard 2/Psion 1 for Cerebremancer.
A second/extended/whatever Divine-Cerebremancer to fill out the 7 remaining levels.
9/7/9 arcane/divine/psionic casting with 18+ "caster" level for everything.
Oh, and I don't know if anyone else noticed, but the genius behind the Wizard/Cleric "class" slipped in good Fort Save as well.
About the only thing you DON'T have is good Bab.


....HAVE FUN STORMING THE CASTLE!

Pretty much... You want to hear the best part?

I originally wanted to play Artificer 1/Zen Archer 8/Other stuff 11, and port in practiced spellcaster (and artificer, obviously) to make Hawkeye with some trick arrows. He said it would be overpowered.