charging two weapon fighting? [3.5]

[ojayaba]

so a bud of mine has thought up something mean/awesome.
1. charging with spring attack
2. two weapon fighting on a spring attack
3.two weapon charging on a spring attack with dual strike and/or two weapon pounce

what are thoughts/opinions on how any/all of these would work?

[Eldan]

None of these (TWF/SPring attack/Charge) can be combined normally, they are all their own actions. Pounce allows TWF on a charge, but it can still not be combined with spring attack.

[ojayaba]

None of these (TWF/SPring attack/Charge) can be combined normally, they are all their own actions. Pounce allows TWF on a charge, but it can still not be combined with spring attack.

I agree with this but would like some locations as to where it says this specifically please.

[tonberrian]

Spring attack is a standard action plus a move action. It (normally) allows one attack.
Charging is a full round action. It (normally) allows one attack.
In order to gain extra attacks (from two weapon fighting or otherwise), you need, barring special circumstances, a full attack. Which is a full round action.

You cannot have more than one full round action in a turn, barring special circumstances, and it's just as hard to combine a full attack with a move action and a standard action.

[Rubik]

You can do a full attack with pounce on a Ride-By Attack, assuming you figure out how to actually make RBA work (as it doesn't, RAW). Maybe make use of one of the ways to make a 90 degree turn on a charge?

[eggs]

so a bud of mine has thought up something mean/awesome.
1. charging with spring attack
This one isn't hard to do well (Barbarian/Warblade with Tiger Claw emphasis and/or Revenant Blade)
EDIT: Misread as TWF+Spring Attack.

2. two weapon fighting on a spring attackThis is really hard to do well. Because Spring Attack sucks, because it's really hard/expensive to get multiple attacks on a spring attack, and because TWF and Spring attack are greedy for the same limited build resource (feats).

3.two weapon charging on a spring attack with dual strike and/or two weapon pounce
Charging is its own full round action, which is not the one specifically allowed by Spring Attack, so this doesn't work well.

Dual Strike is also its own specific standard action, so it doesn't work with Charge or Spring Attack.

Two-Weapon Pounce is better with TWF than charging without any way to make multiple attacks, but getting real pounce is pretty accessible unless you have very limited sources.

Spring Attack-like actions can work pretty well with charging, though: something like Ranger 2/Barbarian 2/Warblade 1/Soldier of Light 1 with Travel Devotion and Spirit Lion Totem could make a charging TWF full attack with high strength and damage bonuses, then tumble away as a swift action to charge again in the next round.

[Darrin]

While the D&D FAQ doesn't answer this question directly, it does explain some of the issues with Spring Attack:



Can a rogue using Spring Attack to . . .
1) Gain an extra attack against his foe in the middle of his move?
2) Deal sneak attack damage on both attacks if his target is caught by surprise or flanked?

While it is certainly possible to use the Spring Attack feat to put your opponent into a position where you might sneak attack them (whether they are flat-footed or flanked), you could take only a single attack as a part of this action, since Spring Attack specifies that it is done “using the attack action.” You can’t make a full attack as part of a Spring Attack, nor can you even use any standard action—you can make only a single attack.


The main issue is the action types are incompatible. According to the text: "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack", which means you're attacking with a standard action while using a move action. While "attack action" isn't actually all that rigidly defined in the rules, it's been unambiguously ruled that Spring Attack only allows a single attack as a standard action. Under action types on page 138 of the PHB:

"The most common type of standard action is an attack - a single melee or ranged attack."

During your turn, there are only three options for how you can use your actions:

1) standard action + move action (Spring Attack)
2) full-round action (Charge, or full attack with TWF)
3) double move or two move actions (Withdraw, etc.)

Since Spring Attack forces you to use option 1, you can't combine it with a full-round action, such as a Charge.



1. charging with spring attack


While this isn't possible, you can get a full-attack on a charge via the Pounce ability, or some other special abilities. The easiest way to do this is to take one level of Barbarian and use the Spirit Lion Totem ACF (Complete Champion) to trade Fast Movement for Pounce. There are a few other ways to get a similar ability via feats: Snow Tiger Berserker (Unapproachable East), Lion Tribe Warrior (Shining South), or Shape Soulmeld: Sphynx Claws + Open Least Chakra: Hands (Magic of Incarnum, natural weapons only).

There are a variety of other ways to combine movement with a full attack. Person_Man compiled a guide to list them all (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).



2. two weapon fighting on a spring attack


While there is a feat in PHBII called Two-Weapon Pounce that allows this, you're usually much better off getting Pounce instead.



3.two weapon charging on a spring attack with dual strike and/or two weapon pounce


Dual Strike can't be combined with Spring Attack, because Spring Attack only allows a standard "attack action". This makes it vastly inferior to Flyby Attack, which is similar to Spring Attack, but allows you to take *any* standard action at any point along your move. This is why the general advice around here is usually to avoid Spring Attack at all costs.

In any case, Pounce would still be better here, allowing you to TWF on a charge without blowing six of your seven feat slots on such lousy feats.