[3.5] Cleric/Swift Hunter

[Firechanter]

Back in the days, on a certain NWN PW server I had a Cleric/Ranger which I enjoyed very much. The idea was to have Cleric healing and buffs in a stealthy package that wouldn't do the Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0024.html) all the time. The most powerful spells were banned on that server so losing 9th level spells wasn't a big deal.

Now I'd like to recreate this guy for our upcoming 3.5 game, but it can't be done 1:1 because NWN uses somewhat different rules, the domains are all different, so I basically have to start from scratch.
For example, the character used to have the Healing and War domains, which were pretty cool in NWN but are sub-par to terribad in 3.5 p&p.

I'm obviously not aiming for highest possible optimization level, but he shouldn't be a gimp either; ideally on strong T3 level.

In case you're wondering "why not a Druid", that's for several reasons: he's supposed to be a Lawful-Good, civilized character; and I don't care about Shifting, nor flashy damage spells.

Objectives:
- preserve versatile Cleric spellcasting,
- long-term buffing
- be a useful Archer, possibly Off-Tank,
- wear armour with small ACP (Chain Shirt etc.) for Stealth

Relevant houserules:
- Pathfinder feat progression (every odd level instead of every third)
- jiriko's Swift Hunter class replaces Ranger.
- 32 Point Buy

I'm not sure yet whether to aim for Clr/Htr 16/4 or 17/3 or whatever.
Zen Archery is a given, and I might as well take some DMM, although he probably won't have so absurdly many Turn Undead attempts (no Nightstick stacking). Maybe Reach Spell / DMM Chain Spell for buffing.

So, Playgrounders, got any cool ideas how I could set up this guy?
Particularly looking for input concerning
- Domains
- Feats (note that 1 FR Regional feat is okay)
- any Prestige Classes that would work well with this?

[nedz]

Seeker of the Misty Isle is good for maintaining your skills and advancing your casting, you would have to be an elf or half-elf though.

[Firechanter]

Ah yes, I forgot to mention the race. The original character was Human, and that worked out nicely also b/c of the extra skill point. However, I wouldn't rule out other races entirely, though Lesser Aasimar seems more appealing than Elf, PrC options notwithstanding. I'll have a look at SotMI, though.

[nedz]

Stealthy Divine PrCs are very rare, sorry.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, so I noticed...

Elf has the added disadvantage of Favoured Class... it practically requires to get in as Clr3/Rgr2 and once you are through with SotMI, you need another PrC or you start taking XP penalties... it's a nice PrC, but Elves just suck at being Clerics, and Half-Elves suck at everything. :p

On the other hand, the Adaptation paragraph suggests to "file off the serial numbers" and use the PrC for whatever group would be appropriate for the selected setting. With the background fluff, I could imagine adapting it for a community of Planetouched looking for their home or something.

Leaving PrCs aside, I'd just pull it through with Clr/Hnt, which of course requires a race with a fitting Favoured Class.

Well, I'll keep fiddling with it, Domains/Feats are also still open. ^^

[nedz]

Ruathar is another, full casting, good skills, but only 3 levels long.

Human Ruathar might be allowed into SotMI, but it is a DM call.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, that would make it a pretty good fit. Well, I'll keep it in mind.

I even looked up the old NWN char I want to rebuild, but it's simply no use, the domains and feats just are too different.

So I basically have to start from scratch.

Feats that appear useful (in no particular order):

Spellcasting Prodigy
Zen Archery
(Point Blank Shot - can be acquired through Elf Domain)
Precise Shot
(Rapid Shot - from Hunter 2)
Education
Able Learner
Knowledge Devotion
Practiced Spellcaster
Reach Spell
Chain Spell & DMM Chain
OR Persist Spell & DMM Persist

Taking both DMM tricks hardly make sense due to limited Turn attempts, but either one combo would of course make sense.

Cloistered Cleric would take some pressure away, adding all those sweet skill points and Knowledge Domain for free, at the exchange for basically 1HP/level; fire up Persisted Divine Power and ignore the poor BAB.

Only problem apart from RP issues (what now, Cloister or Forest?) is the decreased survivability at low levels. The original Rgr/Clr I played up in Full Plate until I was able to boost Dex high enough to switch to Chain.

The actual point of the exercise, decent Stealth Skills, is also another problem, since you can't save up skill points and dump them at a later levelup with a different class, as I did in NWN. So, apart from the typical gear, what other ways are there to pump the stealth checks?

[nedz]

Stealth no, but perception etc. can be done.
Druid and Spirit Shaman offer Spot, Listen and Survival and Knowledge (Nature).
Spirit Shaman also gives Alertness for free.
Druid offers Nature Sense, Woodland Stride and Trackless Step; which are useful.
Elf grants Alertness which stacks with Alertness.

But none of this gives you turning, and hence no DMM.
Neither do any of these give you stealth.

Are there no domains you can use ?

Halfling gives you Cha to 4 skills, including stealth, for 10 mins 1/day. (Halfling racial (size) bonuses can help ?)
Trickery gives you Hide.

So the answer here is probably no as well.

I can find no useful Cleric ACFs
Halfling Druid Substitution Levels (RW, p 157) adds climb, jump, move silently, and hide.
I won't go into SS ACFs.

[Firechanter]

I like to claim that everything is possible in 3.X. So there must be a way to get a Cleric/Ranger working as well. ^^

Looks like there is no way around taking Able Learner. That allows me to buy Hide/MS at 1pt/rank. Also, even a single level of Hunter (Ranger) removes the rank cap on these cross-class skills, but I don't think I even need to max that stuff all the time. IME, a lot of highlevel creatures don't have decent Listen and even fewer have Spot, and against those who have it maxed or who have Scent or the like it's worthless anyway.

Also, at higher levels I may have to invest in a Headband of Intellect -- we use the PF version that grants you one maxed skill per 2 points of Int bonus. +4 Headband -> there's Spot and Listen. Being a Cleric, I can use the wealth I don't need to expend on weapon and armour enhancements.

Taking Cloistered Cleric plus Able Learner would make it trivial, I might even reduce the Int a bit and use those points elsewhere, and just go the DMM Persist route, leaving lowlevel AC as the only problem.

[nedz]

Cleric/Ranger, like Cleric/Rogue, has little support.
There is also Prestige Ranger BTW, but that is literally half casting.
I think that you may have found the best solution with Able Learner though you will still be short of skill points.

[Firechanter]

Okay I think I have figured out two options now that may not be ideal, but can be made to work without houserules. Both may still need rather high Int to work right:

Type I: Human.
Ranger or Hunter 2 / Cloistered Cleric X / possibly Ruathar
Elf Domain for PBS, other domain open, bonus Knowledge

Feats: Able Learner, Spellcasting Prodigy, Zen Archery, Precise Shot, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM Persist, Spontaneous Domain

Pro: good skill points, effectively Ranger skills are class skills all the time
Con: rather few HP, poor BAB before level 7, poor AC until serious Dex-boosts can be afforded

Type II: Elf or Half-Elf
Ranger or Hunter 2 / Cleric 3 / SotMI 10

Drop Able Learner, ignore Stealth/Perception skills on Cleric levels.
Play low levels as classical Full Plate cleric, switch later when you can afford it.

--

Ideally, Type III: Human whose Ruathar levels qualify him for SotMI. it would be a houserule of course, but not too far a stretch imho.


Cleric/Ranger, like Cleric/Rogue, has little support.

Maybe I should try my hand at designing a PrC for that myself. Though I have no experience with that.

[Mishkov]

So...I'll look back here later, but questions for you:

1) Is your objective really RANGER/cleric or is it stealthy cleric? There is more support for stealthy cleric such as shadowbane stalker (Comp Adv) that basically does what you want without being a ranger.

It just sounds like what you want is a rogue. More skills, more sneaking ability, more cohesiveness with cloist cleric

2) Is lawful good a must? You could always do something like scout/ur-priest/prestige ranger and have 9s, no domains, and probably pick up the swift hunter feat (I'm not sure this works RAW, it may only count between scout and ranger, but it wouldn't be a hard sell to your DM)

3) Completely changing your idea, but there is even more support for wizard/rogue or possibly wizard/scout. You'd be even sneakier, could still buff things though without DMM. This is more of a T1/T2 character though.

[Fable Wright]

Just going to say, Darkstalker is a feat you should probably consider, as it lets you hide from Scent/Blindsight/whatever. I would also like to point out that Elves can become Ruathar, as well, in case you needed to fill out some more levels.

Though, to be honest, Ur-Priest into Swift Hunter Prestige Ranger sounds like it would do your build pretty well. Perhaps with some refluffing? Alternatively, an Aasimar who underwent a Ritual of Realignment (Savage Species) might be able to qualify for Ur-Priest through the [Evil] Subtype, while still being Lawful Good. Maybe as a character backstory event?

[eggs]

Cleric archers are easy to make awesome. Just grab Zen Archery, Knowledge Devotion, Rapid Shot and some way of buffing without ruining the action economy (DMM: Persist and Quicken are popular for a reason, Dragonmarks can mean Spell Haven for mini-Celerity, just scouting and prebuffing can also work to a lesser degree), and fill in whatever feat slots are left with bonus damage like Holy Warrior and bonus attack like Law Devotion, Improved Precise Shot or Woodland Archer. Cleric archers don't have a problem with bonus damage, even without Skirmish advancement; what they can have a problem with is getting the spells that make their arrows strong off in time to still use those arrows in combat.

On domains, Elf and Planning have appealing bonus feats, War can access holy warrior for a pretty sizable damage boost and Time just has really good spells for an archer.

On PrCs, Master Harper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030604a) comes with some really rangery abilities. And I doubt there'd be too good a reason to complain for Divine-ing Unseen Seer.

I'd probably end up hashing out a build like:
Ranger 2/Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Seeker of the Misty Isle 4/Master Harper 10
Domains: Animal, Elf [Inquisition and Travel from domains]
ACFs: Cloistered Cleric, Spontaneous Divine Casting
Feats: Track, Zen Archery (1) Rapid Shot (2) Practiced Spellcaster, Knowledge Devotion, Point Blank Shot (3) Law Devotion (5) Alertness (7) Greensinger Initiate (9) Quicken Spell, DMM:Quicken (11) Woodland Archer (13) Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot (15) Divine Spell Power (17) Craft Rod (19) Divine Defiance (20)
with Iron will from the Otyugh hole sometime before ECL 11

[Firechanter]

So...I'll look back here later, but questions for you:
1) Is your objective really RANGER/cleric or is it stealthy cleric? There is more support for stealthy cleric such as shadowbane stalker (Comp Adv) that basically does what you want without being a ranger.

Thanks for the pointer towards this PrC, it looks interesting. Well, the main objective is "Cleric that can move along with his more stealthy companions without alerting every deaf mole ten miles upwind". Basic combat abilities are a plus, and my mental image is that of a human man with a longsword and longbow.

The Archery bit was more or less an afterthought because of the lower AC and HP; the original character mostly fought sword&board. He had rather low damage output, but fantastic AC and could keep going forever.

Isn't there a clause somewhere that Skirmish can be used as substitute for Sneak Attack for the purpose of meeting prereqs?


2) Is lawful good a must?

I suppose a step in either direction would be okay, but Evil is definitely off-limits. LG has kinda become my favourite alignment to play, though.


3) Completely changing your idea, but there is even more support for wizard/rogue or possibly wizard/scout. You'd be even sneakier, could still buff things though without DMM.

Not for this character, but I know someone who might be interested in a spellcasting rogue type.

--

Darkstalker might be an option, will see if it fits in.
I'm not familiar with this Ritual of Realignment, but smells a bit cheesy to me. ;)

--

@eggs: there's some interesting stuff, will look at it in detail, but off hand I'm a bit doubtful concerning the validity of your build, although using Animal Domain to qualify for Greensinger Initiate is a nice trick. However, that feat adds a couple of skills to your Druid class skills -- but you don't have any Druid levels, so you still don't have access to Perform, which you need to qualify for Master Harper.

Still, some nice input there from everybody. ^^

[eggs]

However, that feat adds a couple of skills to your Druid class skills -- but you don't have any Druid levels, so you still don't have access to Perform, which you need to qualify for Master Harper. Should have doublechecked the feat.
Trickery Domain+Apprentice: Performer then; it just means Church Inquisitor can have some awkward fluff attached to it (but make a little shuffle for Divine Disciple instead, and it winds up pretty much the same).

[Mishkov]

Thanks for the pointer towards this PrC, it looks interesting. Well, the main objective is "Cleric that can move along with his more stealthy companions without alerting every deaf mole ten miles upwind". Basic combat abilities are a plus, and my mental image is that of a human man with a longsword and longbow.

The Archery bit was more or less an afterthought because of the lower AC and HP; the original character mostly fought sword&board. He had rather low damage output, but fantastic AC and could keep going forever.

Isn't there a clause somewhere that Skirmish can be used as substitute for Sneak Attack for the purpose of meeting prereqs?

I'm not sure about that. However, here's an interesting idea--there is one for the sudden strike ninja class feature to apply to SA prereqs. You're already going to stack wisdom, so you'd get that to AC while not wearing armor. You're a flipping ninja, so you're super stealthy. If you go to level 2, you can go invisible a 1/2 ninja levels plus wisdom modifier (which should be huge for you).

So something like Ninja 1 (or 2)/Cl. Cl. 4 (or 3)/Shadowbane Stalker 10

The city domain in RoD adds gather information to your cleric list. So you could take that or take able learner at first level.

From there, Shadowspy 4 from CC is possibly worth it if you interpret the Personal Eclipse as being able to give you concealment whenever you want...

Grab intuitive attack or zen archery as feats obviously as well.

Honestly though, if you went either facto, rogue, ninja, or scout 1 with able learner and then 19 Cl Cl, it would be a solid build.

[Firechanter]

*takes notes*

Right, [Something Stealthy] 1 / Cleric X would work.

Hm, if I decide to drop 9th level spells and suffer the delayed casting progression, I could go Hunter 2 / SS 2 / (Cl) Clr X, for the ability to apply Wis to AC with Light Armour. And I'd get a stack of maneuvers and two stances on top (probably focus on Shadow Hand).
Just Swordsage/Cleric would be problematic because of weapon proficiencies - no bows at all.
In that case, it would probably be smart to take the levels in the order
Htr 1 / ClClr +7 / SS +2 / Htr +1 / ClClr +X
to make sure I get Persisted Divine Power online asap.
I have to admit the idea of losing 4 caster levels by ECL 11 pains me, although it would still be okay power-wise for the setting, I guess.

Factotum of course would also be great because he gets Martial Weapons and, of course, all skills, so it would be easy to skill the character as Outdoorman, as the original character was. Taking Cloistered Cleric, I could safely trade the Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion. Only thing missing would be the Track feat, but there's probably a spell for that.

Edit:
is there a list of Cleric PrCs that grant extra Domains?

[Lord Haart]

is there a list of Cleric PrCs that grant extra Domains?

This post (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.msg8436#msg8436) lists some (perhaps all of them).

[tyckspoon]

For example, the character used to have the Healing and War domains, which were pretty cool in NWN but are sub-par to terribad in 3.5 p&p.

Healing's pretty pointless. War has some value, although it helps if you can find a god with a favored weapon you intended to use anyway- it's got a reasonably good set of Domain spells (although not adding anything huge that wasn't already on the Cleric list), the Weapon Prof + Weapon Focus is at least useful even if you wouldn't have spent a feat on that normally.. and the main part for the kind of build you're looking into here is access to the Holy Warrior reserve feat, which adds +spell level of the highest-level War domain spell you have to every hit. Archery builds tend to be pretty good at throwing out loads of attacks and often have pretty good to-hits, but struggle a bit with per-hit damage. Holy Warrior helps with that a bit.

[Firechanter]

Build attempt: Human Factotum 1 / ClCl 5 / Ruathar 3 / Ordained Champion 3 / ??

The PrCs are rather bad for skill points, but the Ruathar would fit thematically and the Champion is a good way to get Holy Warrior and not waste a Domain.

Abilities (PB 32): Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12
[had to up Dex because I don't get to skip the prereq for Rapid Shot now.]

Domains: War, Planning, Knowledge
-> Free feats: Weapon Focus (Longbow), Extend Spell, Knowledge Devotion
Bonus Domain from Ordained Champion: Elf --> Point Blank Shot

Feats: Able Learner (R), Zen Archery (1), Extra Turning (3), Persist Spell (5), DMM Persist (7), Precise Shot (9), Rapid Shot (11), Holy Warrior (13)

Turn attempts: with 1 Nightstick and and a Reliquary Holy Symbol, he should be able to gain 3+1+2+4+4 = 14 TU, sufficient to persist 2 spells per day. One of these will be Divine Power of course. The other is flexible. Might even go for Divine Agility, which makes Zen Archery obsolete. Not sure about that.

I could actually dump Cha to 10, and get a cheap item for that instead (a +2 should do), and shunt those points over to Int for that extra skill point. Getting another 7 TU attempts seems to be impossible anyway, at least not without extensive shenanigans that aren't appreciated in this campaign.

At level 13, the build should be mature and his primary attack bonus should be something like 13+6(Wis)+3(GMW)+1(WF)+2(K.Dev)+3(D.Fav) = +28,
and damage output
1d8+4(Str)+3(GMW)+2(K.Dev)+3(D.Fav)+6(HolyWarrior) = avg. 22,5 per arrow hit

(Not sure if a Bead of Karma is affordable at that level)
Armour Class won't be so great though. Plant Domain would help (Barkskin), but don't have room for that, so an ammy with smaller bonus will have to do. Again, Persisted Divine Agility would help with that.
Maybe invest in a Monk Belt early on to get Wis to unarmoured AC?

Hmmm... if I go the Persist Divine Agility route, I can skip Zen Archery, and maybe take PBS "manually" instead, to replace the Elf Domain with something else... maybe Fate, as Uncanny Dodge could come in handy when going unarmoured.

(luckily I'm not very limited in terms of Domains by Deity, the setting pantheon is very flexible that way)

This bloke is beginning to take shape, anyway...

[mucco]

A couple pointers for bow builds. You might want to take Splitting for your bow, and you might want to buy an Energy Bow.

The build you're looking for is naturally anti-synergy, because it is very easy to dump Dex as a divine ranged char, but you need it for stealth. May I suggest Illumian? Uurkrau sigil gives you +2 to Dex-based skills and Initiative, +1 to CL if CL is under your HD, and you get to use your Dex modifier for bonus slots. This allows you to have a slightly lower Wisdom, and focus on your awesome Dex. Find a way to get Dex to damage - it is quite hard in 3.5. A feat in Dragon Compendium (Dead Eye) and an enchantment on Arms&Eq Guide (3.0, Fierce) allow you to do that, but both have drawbacks. PF has a similar enchantment as well I think.

Otherwise, another Illumian sigil gives you Wis to damage 2 rounds/day by spending turn attempts, I don't think it's worth it.

This is one of the very few builds in which I would dump Constitution, since it is so MAD and you should have plenty of defenses anyway. I would also not raise Str above 10, you will need your points elsewhere and +1 to damage is probably not worth one more skill maxed for Knowledge Devotion, say.

I would do Dex > Wis > Cha > Int > Str > Con. Sounds like blasphemy, but hey, it's going to be a thrill! While you're at it, pick up some UMD and have some immediate action wands ready to get out of sticky situations.

With Wis second stat, you should get a Monk's Belt. You can stack your Magic Vestment on a, well, vestment. Make it a +1 (Soulfire Heavy Fortification) vestment, and have a +1 Floating heavy shield with +1 Defending shield spikes. A chain Magic Vestment, a chain GMW, and at level 12 you're enjoying an AC of 10 + Dex (8) + Wis (4+1) + 3 (Vestment) + 5 (Shield) + 3 (Spikes) + 2 (Nat Armor talisman) = 36, touch 26. Add to that a (Mass) Shield of Faith for another +3 probably. Well maybe that is too much equipment but you can definitely hit a nice AC.

One final suggestion: since you're struggling for classes and you like the Good alignment, think about the Saint template. +2 Con, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, Wis to AC *again*, a ton of immunities and nice things, for a +2 adjustment. Makes you even squishier as you not only have crap Con, but you're also 2 HD behind. Still, it's a really really juicy template.

[Firechanter]

Yeah some good thoughts there... yes to the Energy Bow, of course that's one of the best bows around; however Illumian may be a bit too cheesy.

Dex > Wis, blasphemy indeed. xD But probably not that effective if I stay away from Illumian anyway.

Currently planned ability distribution is:
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 10.

Dumping both Str and Con to 10, I could get Int (or Dex) to 16, but it would make him really squishy... pumping Cha probably isn't worth it either, unless I take another Extra Turning feat and manage to get 21 total TU attempts.

I suppose you mean an Animated Shield, well that won't work with the Monk's Belt, as the property says you still take any penalties associated with shield use, so it's either one or the other.

Thanks for reminding me of another thing indirectly -- Dragon Feats are off-limits, but the PF Deadly Aim feat is fair game. So I need to get that in somewhere; will prolly have to wait until fairly high level though because other stuff is more important.

I should probably be able to get AC32 around level 13: 10 + 3 Dex + 6 Wis + 1 Belt + 3 MV + 2 Nat + 2 Def + 5 Divine Agility; may pump this up a bit with Shield of Faith or stuff like that but this would be "standard". It's just a bit lower than what a defense-heavy Melee is expected to have, so the lack of a shield shouldn't hurt.
Also, at level 14 there's gonna be a hike, since CL12 + Karma bead = CL16 buffs; improved Magic Vestment and Shield of Faith.

Still, it would be even higher with the friggin Barkskin... actually tempted to take Plant Domain; would be a nice setup for Holt Warden if it weren't alignment-incompatible with Ordained Champion. Gnah. Can't have everything, can you. Except if I can get the serial numbers filed off.