What are the Tolkien Characters in 3.5 [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

limejuicepowder

2012-11-04, 09:02 AM

I would peg gimli as.....drum roll please......warblade/fighter. He's way to competent and flexible of a warrior to be straight fighter, and he definitely has more skills then a fighter too (really, when you get right down to it, the fighter class is terrible at portraying anyone past 3rd level or so). So I say warblade with a focus in stone dragon.

Legolas...hmm he's kinda tough. I would actually say multiclass factotum, with a small fighter dip for extra feats. Ranger would give him too many things he doesn't do, like tracking and an animal, while factotum gives him all kinds of skills and the most extreme ability to react to different situations. Plus, cunning surge could definitely be described as elven speed. OOC his player would just have to be selective in his use of spells so he doesn't get too flashy - but things like true strike, blur (refluffed as supernatural dexterity), and clairvoyance would be very appropriate.

Aragorn is also kind of tough. He's a great warrior, but also is very ranger-y. My vote would be mostly ranger (though neither combat style fits him, which kinda sucks), with a couple levels of warblade. As the movie progresses, he definitely picks up more levels of warblade, with a clear focus in white raven.

DarkEternal

2012-11-04, 11:40 AM

Honestly, I always saw Aragorn with a few levels in paladin. He's got some mythical powers, that pretty much range with divine, Anduril is pretty much a Holy Avenger(maybe not with stats, but certainly when it comes to some sort of fluff perspective).

Gimli is a better fighter than Legolas, at least straight up(in the books he won their competition with one orc making the difference if I remember), but I also think he's far more single classes than Legolas as well.

The hobbits are all rogues with the exception of Sam who could have a level in fighter or something.

willpell

2012-11-04, 11:43 AM

Legolas = Scout?

To whoever said Aragorn doesn't fit either Ranger combat style - am I seriously the only person who's thought of making more?

limejuicepowder

2012-11-04, 12:03 PM

Legolas = Scout?

To whoever said Aragorn doesn't fit either Ranger combat style - am I seriously the only person who's thought of making more?

The point isn't to make some homebrew class to fit aragorn, but to find some class or combination of classes that would most accurately portray him.

Also, I don't like legolas as a scout for a couple reasons. 1) Scout gets track, meaning there's no reason at that point for legolas to be a worse tracker than aragorn (who's almost definitely not a single class ranger). 2) Scout has an extreme emphasis on movement, and in the movies at least legolas is more of a long-range death turret than a skirmisher. 3) Cunning surge is the perfect ability to portray supernatural elven quickness. 4) Factotums also gain a bevy abilities that would aid legolas in his physical impossible feats of dexterity and agility, like cunning knowledge and brains over brawn.

That's really just my preference though. Scout would probably work just as well.

Callista

2012-11-04, 01:08 PM

Aragorn is a paladin, and his best stat is probably charisma. He's a good leader (no, you don't need to be pretty to have high charisma) who is able to win the trust of just about anyone. He's a good diplomat and later on a good ruler. He has healing abilities which are specifically useful against Vile damage.

Aragorn also obviously has the Aura of Courage ability. He leads his company into the Paths of the Dead and successfully negotiates with the Oathbreakers; it's Aragorn's courage that supports the others during their ordeal there.

He also has high saving throws. He is physically resilient, surviving injury easily. He is mentally resilient, able to keep his sanity even while gazing into a Palantir. And he is nearly as quick on his feet as Legolas. Most of those ability come from his strength of will--i.e., his charisma score.

Since he isn't quite human, Aragorn probably has racial abilities. It's likely that either his race or his cultures gives him Track and Knowledge (Nature) as class skills. His wilderness lore is really the only thing that isn't explained by the Paladin class.

Aragorn does have naturally high stats, including the skills Paladins would usually dump like dexterity and intelligence (many of those extra skill points are being used on Knowledge skills, and probably Perform(Speech)). I figure his player saw this amazing set of stats and went, "Hey, I don't have to worry about MAD anymore! Paladin, here I come."

Xervous

2012-11-04, 02:35 PM

for how useful frodo is, I'm saying commoner

I mean seriously, what does he do (relative to other characters) other than carry a cursed item around and fail nearly every save and check that comes his way...

sense motive vs. gollum
fort vs. morgul blade
fort vs. shelob
will vs. ring

Sith_Happens

2012-11-04, 02:42 PM

Actually, if I were to pin anyone as a ranger, it'd be Gandalf.

1. Dual-wields frequently (in the movies at least).
2. Animal Companion (Shadowfax).
3. Occasionally casts a spell.
4. Enough skill points to keep his Knowledge checks up.

Race is Aasimar.

Gnaeus

2012-11-04, 02:44 PM

Also, I don't like legolas as a scout for a couple reasons. 1) Scout gets track, meaning there's no reason at that point for legolas to be a worse tracker than aragorn (who's almost definitely not a single class ranger)..

This assumes same level. I would assume Gandalf has the highest HD, then Aragorn (even with his Numenorean LA) Gimli, Legolas and Boromir roughly the same, then hobbits.

for how useful frodo is, I'm saying commoner

I mean seriously, what does he do (relative to other characters) other than carry a cursed item around and fail nearly every save and check that comes his way...

sense motive vs. gollum
fort vs. morgul blade
fort vs. shelob
will vs. ring

Actually, book suggests that frodo has a lot higher endurance (read saves) than most people. It isn't that he fails saves vs the ring, it is that he is rolling a lot of saves, and he fails fewer than most other people would.

Cranthis

2012-11-04, 02:45 PM

Frodo is a badly optimized rogue.

hymer

2012-11-04, 02:57 PM

sense motive vs. gollum
Frodo understands Gollum perfectly well once he meets him, better than anyone save Gandalf. He predicts Gollum's treachery and reads his motives with great clarity. He also understands him well enough to know when Gollum can be trusted.
I'm of course not referring to that movie that came out a while back.

fort vs. morgul blade
He made that save and kept making it. It was something like a save every hour at night, three failed saves and you're a wraith - and the DC keeps climbing. Frodo carried a shard of that blade for over two weeks.

fort vs. shelob
No save there. To hear the Orcs talk about it, that poison just works. Of course, if it's ½HD + con bonus, it's likely that Shelob's poison is just so potent that any PC will only save on 20, and since the effect is instantaneous and easily observed, she'll just jab you again if you were that lucky.

will vs. ring
Frodo's resistance to the Ring is legendary. What he does, bringing it to the Sammath Naur, is very likely more than anyone else could have done, and that includes Gandalf and even Sam.

So Frodo has decent saves, though some of that is from being a Hobbit. He also has some decent knowledge skills, as well as pretty all-round stealth. Once he gets the ring, he starts building to great Spot, Intimidate and Sense Motive, and of course his Will and Fortitude saves start heading for the high heavens.
His Diplomacy isn't half bad either, judging by how he speaks in front of Faramir, who is obviously a gifted diplomancer.
Oh, and he's said to have a 'good voice', and he can make songs when moved, and he is a skilled author and scribe.

Ceaon

2012-11-04, 03:54 PM

My suggestions, based on the book characters, with core only classes:

Gandalf: Aasimar Adept 5/Fighter 12
Aragorn: Human (Numenor) Paladin 3/Ranger 3/Horizon Walker 5/Fighter 2
Gimli: Dwarven Fighter 11
Legolas: Wood Elven Ranger 3/Rogue 5/Bard 1/Fighter 2

Boromir: Human (Gondorian) Aristocrat 2/Fighter 10
Faramir: Human (Gondorian) Aristocrat 1/Ranger 2/Fighter 6

Frodo: Halfling Aristocrat 2+
Sam: Halfling Commoner 1/Warrior 1+
Merry: Halfling Aristocrat 1/Expert 1
Pippin: Halfling Aristocrat 1+

Lord_Gareth

2012-11-04, 03:59 PM

Legolas = Scout?

To whoever said Aragorn doesn't fit either Ranger combat style - am I seriously the only person who's thought of making more?

Show me his spells and animal companion and we'll talk.

Metahuman1

2012-11-04, 04:10 PM

Arn't the fellowship Gestalt E6 characters?

Razanir

2012-11-04, 04:22 PM

The hobbits are most certainly hobbithalfling commoners, although Sam might be an expert and I might almost give Frodo an aristocrat level or two.

Aragorn is a half-elf ranger 5 (Maybe paladin 1/ranger 4)

Gimli is... a dwarf. Beyond that, I don't really know. Certainly a melee class and no higher than level 5

Boromir is a human fighter

Legolas is likely an elf ranger 4-5

And Gandalf is either some sort of an Outsider(Native) or a celestial human wizard 5

Flickerdart

2012-11-04, 04:34 PM

Show me his spells and animal companion and we'll talk.
Legolas is obviously his animal companion, and the spells are being used to make him look like an elf.

Alejandro

2012-11-04, 04:53 PM

Whatever else you give him, Boromir has a very large HP total. :)

legomaster00156

2012-11-04, 04:56 PM

Whatever else you give him, Boromir has a very large HP total. :)
And a poor Will save. A CON-focused Fighter with high HP rolls seems appropriate. Maybe even Barbarian, since his final battle against the Orcs seems like a Rage.

Alejandro

2012-11-04, 05:00 PM

I think the Rohirrim are more barbarian like. None of the Fellowship really are. But yes, Boromir does have a poor Will save! He may be a Knight, since he is a noble of Gondor.

Inferno

2012-11-04, 05:02 PM

I'd have put Frodo down as a Commoner/Survivor better saves, and more health than someone who does so little would usually have.

Dr.Epic

2012-11-04, 05:06 PM

Legolas is a ranger range type :) or he could also be a fighter specializing in the long bow for 3.5 :) or both Elf Fighter/Ranger :) specializing on the longbow

Legolas is a ranger? I don't remember him doing too many ranger-like things. I always assumed he was just a bow-focus fighter.

gorfnab

2012-11-04, 05:27 PM

Legolas is a ranger? I don't remember him doing too many ranger-like things. I always assumed he was just a bow-focus fighter.
The movie depiction of him is more of a Scout than Ranger. Flawless Stride + Trackless Step = walking on snow while leaving no footprints. Skirmish = more damaging arrows while he is darting around the battlefield.

Flickerdart

2012-11-04, 07:28 PM

I think the Rohirrim are more barbarian like. None of the Fellowship really are. But yes, Boromir does have a poor Will save! He may be a Knight, since he is a noble of Gondor.
Knights have good Will saves.

Venusaur

2012-11-04, 07:45 PM

Legolas = Scout?

To whoever said Aragorn doesn't fit either Ranger combat style - am I seriously the only person who's thought of making more?

There are more in Dragon 326.

Snowbluff

2012-11-04, 07:51 PM

There are more in Dragon 326.

Eh, I would bet he's a Switch-Hitter.

Saskia

2012-11-04, 09:18 PM

Occasional Sage

2012-11-04, 09:51 PM

Poorly translated.

Mishkov

2012-11-04, 09:55 PM

Gandalf is by far the most interesting and complex to characterize. I'd put him as a high level Factotum actually--just kind of bull****ting everyone that he is a wizard. He does too much randomness and has too many high class skills (bluff, sense motive, ride, all his social skills, profession fireworks, knowledge everything, etc) to really be considered much else. He does cast spells too. By far the highest level.

I'd also like to put Sam as a paladin, with bad gear and low levels, but with divine grace and the feat from BoED that allows him to share it with his party (namely Frodo).

I don't think that the fact that legolas defers to others for tracking does not make him not have the feat/skill, just that he's bad at it. It otherwise kinda fits.

tyckspoon

2012-11-04, 10:03 PM

I don't think that the fact that legolas defers to others for tracking does not make him not have the feat/skill, just that he's bad at it. It otherwise kinda fits.

This. Merely *having* the Track feat does not make one a good tracker. You also need a significant investment in the Survival skill. Legolas was an elf prince. Aragorn was a lone operator who spent his time both hunting and avoiding the forces of evil. Which of those characters do you think had the greater Survival skills? "Legolas didn't use Track" isn't a reason to discard a class that has it if the rest of the class features fit him well.

awa

2012-11-04, 10:08 PM

war blades is not actually necessary just a dm who likes flashy descriptions of attacks or is willing to improvise a bit.

Snowbluff

2012-11-04, 10:18 PM

This. Merely *having* the Track feat does not make one a good tracker. You also need a significant investment in the Survival skill.

So what you you are trying to say is "One does not simply track with just the feat". :smalltongue:

Razanir

2012-11-04, 10:31 PM

Gandalf is a bard/druid with boatloads of bluff.

Aragorn is a poorly optimized paladin (noncasting ACF) with two level ranger dip; starting off ranger and then going into paladin and blowing all his feats on weapon focuses and tactical feats. He keeps survival maxed.

Gimli is a rogue with fighter dip for proficiencies and a couple feats. Probably the most optimized character and definitely broken by comparison.

Legolas is a ranger but he's an idiot so he never put much into survival. That's why he lets Aragorn do the tracking.

Frodo is a rogue, but he forgot that skill points are based on intelligence so he pumped wisdom and staggered his skills such that he's not really good at much except sense motive, and then the ring's curse induces paranoia so there goes the one thing he's good at.

Boromir is a sword and board warblade, but used wisdom as dump stat instead of charisma.

Merry is a good will save.

Pippin is a straight fighter with all-round low stats but incredible luck.

Sam is a high intelligence rogue with a competent skill loadout. He and Gimli basically carry the party.

Lord of the Rings was actually just a really low-op campaign.

Gandalf... probably doesn't have class levels. He's actually a Maia in human form, so that's why I'd give him Outsider(native)

Gimli and Boromir I agree with.

Again, hobbit society is not combat focused at all. They would very much be NPC classes, and commoner or expert at that. Merry and Pippin MAYBE are warriors.

Aragorn... I still don't quite buy the idea of him being a paladin. I think he's just a ranger with maxed heal and survival. Oh, and some sort of knowledge to explain how he knew about athelas.

And Legolas does not always leave tracking to Aragorn. Start of Two Towers, he actually helps Aragorn with tracking Merry and Pippin. So even if he doesn't have the Track feat, he definitely still has ranks in survival to aid him

Zonugal

2012-11-04, 10:34 PM

I'd probably build the party, and the entire campaign setting/world, with a hard limit at 6th-level for nearly everyone.

The Actual Adventurers
Aragorn: Human Ranger 1/Paladin 4/Warblade 1
Legolas: Elven Ranger 5/Warblade 1
Gimili: Dwarven Ranger 1/Warblade 3/Ranger 1/Deepwarden 1
Boromir: Human Crusader 6

The Tag-Alongs
Frodo: Halfling Commoner 1/Survivor 5
Sam: Halfling Commoner 1/Rogue 1/Paladin 1
Merry: Halfling Aristocrat 1/Rogue 1/Knight 1
Pippin: Halfling Aristocrat 1/Bard 2

The Heavy Hitters
Gandalf: A Solar Angel (I'm saying this with the caveat that he's heavily restricted from using higher level spells for any number of flavor/story reasons)

Arbane

2012-11-04, 10:42 PM

I'm pretty certain that the Ranger class in AD&D was specifically made to play Aragorn. The new version, maybe not so much.

Gnome Alone

2012-11-04, 10:57 PM

Read a very similar thread in which someone said that in 4E you could basically stat up Gandalf as a Deva Cleric.

Point of interest: y'know it's actually pronounced "Gandalv"? If I'd written LOTR, I think I'd've put that in somewhere before the index.

Qc Storm

2012-11-04, 11:46 PM

I think Gandalf is a Factotum/Chameleon.

Skills everywhere. Floating feat. Varied spellcasting. High caster level (Chameleon has double caster progression). He looks like a frail wizard but can handle himself in a melee. Perhaps some Combat Focus, along with either Arcane or Divine. He probably has Knowledge Devotion too.

hymer

2012-11-05, 04:36 AM

@ Gnome Alone: 'f' at the end of the word is pronounced as 'v' in Elvish pronunciation, this is correct. But elves call him Mithrandir. 'Gandalf' is not an elven name, and so does not follow that rule.

Gwendol

2012-11-05, 07:08 AM

The hobbits Frodo, Merry and Pippin are all "nobility", while Sam is a commoner. This may influence their classes.

Frodo slices off the hand of the barrow wight before Tom Bombadill expells it from the barrow.
In Moria, Frodo attacks the troll, hacking it in the foot and thus preventing it from taking much of an active part in the fighting. After that he doesn't do much fighting.

Merry fought the Uruk-Hai at Amon Hen before being captured. He stabs the Witch-King in the knee, allowing Eowyn to strike a mortal blow. Back in the Shire, he and Pippin organize and leads the hobbit forces against Sarumans lackeys, and he also kills their leader at the battle of Bywater.

Pippin doesn't do that much good until the end of the series, where he accompanies Aragorn to the gates of Moria, represents the hobbits during the parlay with the Mouth of Sauron, and makes the final stand at the gates and slays a troll leader. Together with Merry he purges the Shire from occupation.

They are most closely represented by some Fighter-Rogue combo, possibly with the Penetrating Strike ACF.

Man on Fire

2012-11-05, 07:10 AM

So... Gandalf is an Outsider, Aragorn is a Ranger, and Gimli is a Fighter... then what the heck is left for Legolas?:smallconfused:

What are the other characters? I strongly suspect that Sam is a Halfling with commoner levels.

Tokien characters do not fit into D&D system. Even orks doesn't work the same way.

Gnome Alone

2012-11-05, 11:25 AM

'f' at the end of the word is pronounced as 'v' in Elvish pronunciation, this is correct. But elves call him Mithrandir. 'Gandalf' is not an elven name, and so does not follow that rule.

I didn't think of that! Thanks.

Arbane

2012-11-05, 11:33 AM

Tokien characters do not fit into D&D system. Even orks doesn't work the same way.

"We'll MAKE them fit."
*revs chainsaw*

Starbuck_II

2012-11-05, 11:41 AM

Kaustic

2012-11-05, 11:45 AM

Merely *having* the Track feat does not make one a good tracker.

One does not simply Track oneself into Mordor.

Rejakor

2012-11-05, 11:45 AM

Gandalf is a Paladin with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat, and a custom Stave. He is also a DMPC.

Aragorn is a competently built Favoured Terrain Ranger. Everything else that he does is either RP (you are the heir of gondor - and even then his lack of cha and diplo actually hurt him) or a custom skill check based problem (wounds by X metal require heal checks or they fester).

Boromir is a straight fighter with PHB feats and a Horn of Valhalla.

Faramir is a ranger/fighter with some splat feats. He also, is possibly a swordsage but that's only very tangentially possible, seems like he uses a diamond mind counter a few times, but it's probably just description (or he has Robilar's).

Frodo is a diviner 2/rogue 3/monk 1/bard 2/sublime chord 3. He never uses magic because his spells are divination focused, and the player is terrible at the game.

Sam Gamgee is a dex/cha social rogue, with a player who rolls well and doesn't waste feats (improved trip + that thing that lets you move tripped people 5'). In that orc border tower he basically solos the entire tower to get Frodo out in a stunning display of stealth tactics and the use of the Disguise skill.

He may, or may not, be Frodo's cohort.

That said, there's an outside possibility Frodo is SAM's cohort, and is built as a hodgepodge of uselessness specifically to boost his Will save because Sam is a massive powergamer and knew what was coming with the One Ring from the first time it was mentioned. (or from the prequel campaign, where he played another incredibly effective rogue, BILBO MOTHERBLASTING BAGGINS)

Pippin and Merry are either followers of someone with the leadership feat, or are two relatively clueless players who joined the game and quickly got a clue (see them becoming relatively awesome as time went on) I won't say for surety that one isn't the cohort of the other, but given that they separate later, i'm more inclined to think that either they are NPCs or followers who get fleshed out in their own separate campaign (the treefolk, and gondor campaigns specifically) or they are a pair of players who couldn't make it to the initial sessions (they feel a lot like Aragorn and Sam Gamgee's players, though, in actions, so my money is on NPCs who got fleshed out in a semi-solo campaign for the two of them. Regardless of that, pippin is a rogue/fighter and merry is a cleric).

Legolas is an Elf Ranger, whose player is actually focusing on archery (unlike all the other rangers in the game). I'd almost say Scout, but in the books he tends to take a position and piss down arrows, which isn't very Scoutlike.

Gimli is a dwarf fighter/deepwarden, and he's very definitely the tank of the group despite his lack of a shield.

He's wearing Adamantine Mountain Plate, thus his grumbling about his low (15') speed all the time (and why he needs to be thrown, and can't jump it).

Zubrowka74

2012-11-05, 11:55 AM

I'm pretty certain that the Ranger class in AD&D was specifically made to play Aragorn. The new version, maybe not so much.

This was my initial reaction. They did base the 1e ranger on the book-version Aragorn. It got fuzzier with 3.x and now in PF you can have THF and sword & board rangers.

Also, demi-humans are separate classes : elves, dwarves, halfling. :D

Marlowe

2012-11-05, 12:01 PM

Oddly enough "Gandalf" ("sorceror elf") was originally supposed to be the name of Thorin in "The Hobbit", only Tolkien decided to give the name to the character who's plainly an Odin expy.

Only two things I have to say about Legolas is firstly that his bow is specifically mentioned (pre-Lothlorien) as "small" (and this is a world where Elves are tall), so he's not using a Longbow from the beginning. He got given one by Galadriel later. So I doubt he's a Ranger.

Second thing is that he's a son of Thranduin (the Elvenking from "The Hobbit") who was alive at the time of the Silmarillion. Therefore Legolas could be any age you like up to about 10,000. Legolas could well be very, very old by the standards of any of the other fellowship members except Gandalf. He could well be an epic-level Expert with a lot of Archery feats. It fits the book as well as anything.

Razanir

2012-11-05, 02:54 PM

Snowbluff

2012-11-05, 03:15 PM

MesiDoomstalker

2012-11-05, 03:38 PM

I'll just leave this here.... (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612)

toapat

2012-11-05, 03:52 PM

General Consensus:

Gandalf: Aasimar, any class that can get spellcasting. perhaps Meta-gestalted so he actually does have all of them.

Aragorn: ? Paladin 6//Ranger 6, with Devouted Tracker, and an all 18 attribute set

Legolas: High Elf Paladin Mount 4/Druid Companion 6, racials count for everything he can do. there is a bit of homebrew going on with Aragon's pet levels though for legolas here

Gimli: Dwarf, Fighter 6 or Warblade 6

Frodo: Something that blows, possibly Monk, trading Hand axe for dagger.

Other Halflings: Something that blows harder then what Frodo has

Marlowe

2012-11-05, 03:58 PM

I'll just leave this here.... (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612)

While it's funny. I'm pretty sure we've all read it before. Was this supposed to prove anything?

I mean, stat them out in your game as you want. The "Gandalf is only level 5" thing has been around for longer than most of us have been playing. And it's perfectly obvious that while Gandalf may only be a level 5 Wizard (or Sorceror, or whatever) he's got a whole lot more going on in other areas. He's essentially Odin, as he turns up in Scandinavian folklore. Right down to the hat.

I don't think the notion that LOTR is very low-level really works. It's a setting with quite understated magic, but it's also got physical gods wandering around and being sarcastic to people.

EDIT: And Legolas, whatever he is, is not a High Elf. He comes from Mirkwood. He's Avari.

CN the Logos

2012-11-05, 04:03 PM

Wait... One thing I'm adamant about for statting them up is E6, or more accurately, E5. I support this theory (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2) that LotR is a shockingly low-level campaign, compared to what people expect. So whatever classes we decide on, I'm fairly certain that no one should be above level 5, except Gandalf IF he gets Outsider HD

This. None of the major "skill checks" depicted in LotR require the characters making them to be over level five. The scenes where someone fights someone else for minutes/hours/days at a time are a problem, but that's because D&D 3.X fails at depicting the sort of combat found in epics, not because the characters are all actually level forty or something.

Gandalf, as has been pointed out previously, is not human. To my knowledge, there aren't actually any human spellcasters in Middle-Earth. He's an angel, sent to aid the Free Peoples mostly through counsel, occasionally by taking a support role in combat. He's been ordered not to use his full power unless it's the absolute last option available because the last time the Valar directly acted to fight the BBEG, it damaged the world pretty badly, and they aren't sure how much more fighting between demigods it can handle before falling apart; also Tolkien was a big fan of free will and his God acting in mysterious ways. Gandalf could be a planetar or solar, it doesn't really matter which for the purposes of the story. Note however that the balrog was nowhere near as powerful as a D&D balor aside from taking forever to kill, and fighting the balrog was probably one of the few occasions worth Gandalf's full potential, so planetar or something similar is more likely than solar.

Aragorn was a mostly mundane charasmatic dude with tracking and healing abilities. Justin Alexander's suggestion of Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Paladin 3 sounds about right to me. Maybe give him another level of Ranger for the skills.

Boromir acts and fights like a very educated Barbarian. Maybe Barbarian with something else for his first level, to give him skills and the ability to read. He's probably level four or five.

Legolas could be built with nothing but the Fighter class, but probably works better with a two level dip in Ranger. Gimli is a Warblade. They are both probably in the four to five range.

The hobbit nobles (Bilbo and Frodo) strike me as Factotums. Rogue-like, but well-read and with an emphasis on guile. The other hobbits are probably rogues (Sneak Attack to the Witch-King's leg, check). They're probably level three at best, although I have no idea what build trick Sam used to one-shot the daughter of Primordial Night/Entropy like that.

Seriously guys, not every setting has to be Forgotten Realms. :smalltongue:

toapat

2012-11-05, 04:16 PM

EDIT: And Legolas, whatever he is, is not a High Elf. He comes from Mirkwood. He's Avari.

wood elf in DnD is more brute then Legolas (basically, he may be a setting Wood Elf, but in DnD terms he is a high elf), From what ive seen, ive seen more weight for "Legolas being extremely unoptomized" as opposed to "Legolas is himself pretty stupid for an elf"

Marlowe

2012-11-05, 04:23 PM

Seriously guys, not every setting has to be Forgotten Realms. :smalltongue:

What is this "Forgotten Realms" you speak of?

Problem is, treating the LOTR heroes as so low level pays no respect to the opposition.

I want the Witch-King to be a figure of dread, terror, and implacable will. That's how he's described, and given his combat performance in the appendices, that's what he should be.

I want the other nazgul to be beings that make people crawl when they look at them.

I want the Orcs to be tough, competant, if somewhat undisciplined soldiers that might credibly threaten someone.

I want the Haradrim and the Easterlings to have their dignity and their glory, even fighting for a rotten cause.

And none of that works if you treat the main characters like scrubs.

CN the Logos

2012-11-05, 06:39 PM

What is this "Forgotten Realms" you speak of?

Problem is, treating the LOTR heroes as so low level pays no respect to the opposition.

I want the Witch-King to be a figure of dread, terror, and implacable will. That's how he's described, and given his combat performance in the appendices, that's what he should be.

I want the other nazgul to be beings that make people crawl when they look at them.

I want the Orcs to be tough, competant, if somewhat undisciplined soldiers that might credibly threaten someone.

I want the Haradrim and the Easterlings to have their dignity and their glory, even fighting for a rotten cause.

And none of that works if you treat the main characters like scrubs.

The problem with this argument is that third to fifth level characters aren't "scrubs." At all. With moderate optimization (not even serious op-fu, just decent ability scores, maxed skill ranks, Skill Focus, and maybe some bonuses from equipment, etc...), a fifth level character is matching or breaking real-life world records in whatever skills they specialize in. Sixth-level and higher characters can, even when all traces of magic are removed from the system, do things that are completely beyond what real-life humans are capable of. By about level ten, characters can and should have the capabilities of mythological demigods.

Yes, the characters in The Lord of the Rings are (mostly) competent. Yes, the Witch-King is a figure of terror. But you don't need to stat anyone in Middle-Earth (with the exception of the actual angelic beings) higher than low/mid-level for them to do everything they did in the story. Based on what the book actually describes the protagonists doing, Third Age Middle-Earth is simply not a setting where fifth level and higher characters are routine.

limejuicepowder

2012-11-05, 06:52 PM

What is this "Forgotten Realms" you speak of?

Problem is, treating the LOTR heroes as so low level pays no respect to the opposition.

I want the Witch-King to be a figure of dread, terror, and implacable will. That's how he's described, and given his combat performance in the appendices, that's what he should be.

I want the other nazgul to be beings that make people crawl when they look at them.

I want the Orcs to be tough, competant, if somewhat undisciplined soldiers that might credibly threaten someone.

I want the Haradrim and the Easterlings to have their dignity and their glory, even fighting for a rotten cause.

And none of that works if you treat the main characters like scrubs.

The witch king is yet another villain that doesn't live up to his hype though....he gets killed by a hobbit and an able-but-far-from-awesome swordsman. Best way to stat him would probably be paladin of tyranny 6 or something (aura of dread, mount, smite good, etc). Same with the other nazgul, though they would only be level 5.

A basic orc from MM1 is a very credible threat...to low level characters, which is exactly what they are in LotR. Basically, extra strength gives them an advantage (but not an insurmountable one) against droves of commoners and warriors of 1st level; at the same time, characters of 4 to 6th level, like the main heroes, can cut them down with ease. Orcs and goblins in LotR are very accurately portrayed by DnD goblins and orcs with a single level in warrior; the uruk-hai are orcs with a level in fighter (maybe, though perhaps they just have +2 to str and con) - Lurtz is a barbarian (as are the berserk at helm's deep), while the leaders are probably marshals.

Bladesinger

2012-11-05, 07:22 PM

Here's the way I've always thought of it.

Gandalf: Based on what I've read in The Silmarillion, I would say that Gandlalf is a completely unique outsider, or perhaps a solar or planetar as has been suggested. But I still think that Gandalf and the other Wizards (note the capital) are unique, at least in this setting. To be fair, though, it seems that mortals in Middle Earth are restricted to tier 4 and below, so perhaps Gandalf is just awesome because he's an outsider with at least one tier 1 class (for example, Radagast the Brown would be a druid).

Aragorn: I would say that some sort of ranger shenanigans are involved. If he has levels in paladin, he probably didn't take them until he stopped running from his destiny and embraced his identity as king. I'd say a mix of ranger and fighter, I suppose.

Gimli: I'd go with straight fighter, at least at first. Perhaps running around with Legolas in the woods prompted him to take class levels in something more...woodsy. But maybe not. I don't really see anything that fighter isn't capable of (at least via roleplaying, if not via skills).

Legolas: Fighter or ranger, as has already been suggested. I'd personally go with fighter, myself. Maybe a level or two in aristocrat, since he's a prince and all that. I'm sure he has some sort of special, setting-specific wood elf racial bonuses to some survival and knowledge (nature).

Boromir: His Lawful nature cuts out barbarian. (The Ring must go to Gondor!) But I concur with the previously suggested fighter or aristocrat/fighter. Regardless, high constitution and strength are as obvious as the low wisdom.

Frodo: Either aristocrat, rogue, or both. Wisdom is his highest stat, regardless.

Sam: Behold! Commoner/paladin. Seriously. He starts out as a lowly, mostly uneducated gardener, but then he smites the hell out of Shelob. And his courage is such that, without him, Frodo's whole quest would have failed. Some examples include his fights with Gollum and Shelob, his decision to take the Ring off of Frodo and complete the quest himself, his decision to follow the orcs who carry Frodo away, his overcoming of the guardians of the tower of Cirith Ungol (something no mortal should have been able to do, Star of Galadriel aside), his willingness to return the Ring to Frodo (despite the thing being within the height of its power), and his physically getting Frodo across Mordor to (and up) Mount Doom. There's a reason that Tolkien himself has said that if there's a single main character in Lord of the Rings, it's Sam, not Frodo or even Aragorn. He's a hero if I've ever seen one.

Merry: Rogue or rogue/fighter. As has already been pointed out, his stabbing of the Witch King can only be described as a sneak attack. He also is crucial in leading the scouring of the Shire.

Pippin: As Merry, although perhaps a bit more on the fighter side. He kills a troll, after all. (Although, I suppose the argument could be made that he sneak attacked it to death by stabbing it in the bowels.)

Alignment-wise, the entire fellowship is mostly LG, with the Pippin and maybe Frodo and Merry as exceptions (CG, NG, and NG, respectfully). Gandalf the Grey started out NG, but became more LG when he came back as Gandalf the White. Legolas doesn't really have enough of a personality to be given a real alignment.

Anyway, this is just how I've always thought about it (and yes, I think about things like this a lot). Take it or leave it as you please.

Gwendol

2012-11-06, 04:09 AM

General Consensus:

Frodo: Something that blows, possibly Monk, trading Hand axe for dagger.

Other Halflings: Something that blows harder then what Frodo has

No consensus at all regarding the hobbits. I concur with the suggestion that Sam has some paladin thing going on, and as I pointed out previously, Merry and Pippin are both hobbit nobility and in the end turn out to be accomplished warriors. Some rogue/fighter combo most likely.

Also, I think someone suggested Boromir could have some knight levels: that is quite appropriate, and he is certainly not a barbarian.

hymer

2012-11-06, 06:41 AM

The witch king is yet another villain that doesn't live up to his hype though....he gets killed by a hobbit and an able-but-far-from-awesome swordsman.

"maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel-blade, fair yet terrible. A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove asunder, and the hewn head fell like a stone."

That's about as awesome swordsmanship as you'll find in the whole of the book.

The chief of the Nazgûl is taken down (as you'd expect the nearly indestructible and effectively ageless to be) by a hugely unlikely confluence of events - someone able to stand up to his fear aura (due to being a death seeker), capable of defeating his steed (because she really is that awesome), while backed up by a very small creature (that manages to go unnoticed) that just happens to have brought a royal dagger from far, far away, made specifically to harm him.

And finally, there's a fundamental divergence from 3.5 here, in that 'the mightiest may be slain by one arrow' as Pippin puts it. What happens, I'd say, is that Éowyn is doing a coup de grace after the dagger attack has rendered the Nazgûl helpless for a round. Which means he isn't technically undead, I know.

kitcik

2012-11-06, 11:29 AM

Are these them? Or are the similarities purely coincidental?

http://www.em4miniatures.com/acatalog/Eflsera_Fantasy_Characters.html

Starbuck_II

2012-11-06, 11:36 AM

Are these them? Or are the similarities purely coincidental?

http://www.em4miniatures.com/acatalog/Eflsera_Fantasy_Characters.html

Well, if you click their stats: they are named different, but are noted not to be legal in a war game...

The halfing has the highest Init value (you roll die, higher die, better chance to activate the figure: you need a 5 on a 1d6 to activate him. You can fail easily the others) You roll 2 d6's, so you can get two actions each activation.
But lowest combat value (tied with wizard but wiz has magic). 1d6+2 is his combat value vs enemy's.

If you fail at Initiative rolls three times, it passes to enemy's turn.
So Halfing's quality makes it best as you can two turns with easily (hard to fail, if only fail on a 6 on 1d6).

Eldariel

2012-11-06, 12:22 PM

Show me his spells and animal companion and we'll talk.

Champion of the Wild Ranger doesn't gain spells and Dragon Magazine has additional combat styles. Besides, Aragorn is competent with a bow so perhaps he has the Archery combat style. And he probably has the Solitary Hunter too so he doesn't have companion either.

limejuicepowder

2012-11-06, 01:54 PM

"maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel-blade, fair yet terrible. A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove asunder, and the hewn head fell like a stone."

That's about as awesome swordsmanship as you'll find in the whole of the book.

The chief of the Nazgûl is taken down (as you'd expect the nearly indestructible and effectively ageless to be) by a hugely unlikely confluence of events - someone able to stand up to his fear aura (due to being a death seeker), capable of defeating his steed (because she really is that awesome), while backed up by a very small creature (that manages to go unnoticed) that just happens to have brought a royal dagger from far, far away, made specifically to harm him.

And finally, there's a fundamental divergence from 3.5 here, in that 'the mightiest may be slain by one arrow' as Pippin puts it. What happens, I'd say, is that Éowyn is doing a coup de grace after the dagger attack has rendered the Nazgûl helpless for a round. Which means he isn't technically undead, I know.

I'll be honest I'm basing my arguments on the movie only, having failed (twice) to read the books.

If what you say is true and the witch king was stunned - or paralyzed - and Eowyn was removing his head from his shoulders, that doesn't take a fantastical swordsman. Experienced yes, but being able to competently swing a sword and trade blows with someone in combat are very different.

It's true that DnD isn't great at portraying kill shots. Coup de grace do it best, but for obvious reasons it is too hard to use in combat. In real combat, it's a lot easier to deal a skilled (or lucky) deathblow to someone. Being a game, DnD needs to soften the deadliness slightly.

awa

2012-11-06, 02:50 PM

not to mention in dnd your average unarmored fighter is basicaly immune to being shanked in an ally unless the attacker is a master assasin.

hymer

2012-11-06, 05:21 PM

limejuicepowder

2012-11-06, 06:00 PM

@ limejuicepowder: That was the description of Éowyn defeating the winged steed of the Nazgûl as it tried to kill her. And again, descriptions don't get closer to superlatives than that in the book. Nobody else gets their skill in arms referred to as swift, skilled and deadly. Based on the descriptions, by the way you interpret the text here, nobody has skill at all. Andúril just 'comes down' on an Orc chieftain's head, and Gimli 'hews' the legs of an Orc that had sprung up on Balin's tomb (all quoted by memory - but feel free to search and prove me wrong). That's not hard, just move the weapon with some speed.

In the movie, it's implied that Éowyn compares to Aragorn in swordsmanship. That comparison is not made in the book, save to note that Faramir cannot be outmatched in battle by any rider of Rohan, and presumably Aragorn is even better.

Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear: what I meant was that Eowyn essentially cleaved the head off of a helpless foe; my point is that being able to take someone's head off with a sword doesn't necessarily make them a great swordsman. Thus, Eowyn "besting" the Witch King isn't a great indicator of her skill. Chopping off the head of the winged beast is a different matter, making it clear she is a skilled warrior. However, I see no reason to think she is in the same league as Aragorn or any of the other main characters - after all, there's a huge amount of space for someone to be a great fighter but still pale compared to Aragorn or Gimli.

Also, I would hesitate to use the flowery description of Eowyn's battle with the Witch King as an indicator of her skill. Much more likely is that the Witch King is a major villain, and Tolkein wanted him to die in an epic-sounding battle.

But I digress. My point, if I ever had one, is that the LotR is best portrayed by characters of no more then 6th level. No one in the whole series ever does something that can't be done by a DnD character of 6th level or lower, with some unique magic items (possibly artifacts) and some creative template. Once DnD characters get to 10th or 12th or 14th level, the power they bring is just far too much.

awa

2012-11-06, 06:31 PM

6ish they could be higher level if they were unoptimized.

Zonugal

2012-11-06, 08:56 PM

But I digress. My point, if I ever had one, is that the LotR is best portrayed by characters of no more then 6th level. No one in the whole series ever does something that can't be done by a DnD character of 6th level or lower, with some unique magic items (possibly artifacts) and some creative template. Once DnD characters get to 10th or 12th or 14th level, the power they bring is just far too much.

I'd say the Ainur & such beings are above 6th-level.

awa

2012-11-06, 09:39 PM

first off assuming my quick read of wikipedia was correct their basically god and therefore don't count.

second they didn't do anything in the lord of the rings and so also don't count

Zonugal

2012-11-06, 10:10 PM

Let me revise that...

I believe characters like Gandalf, Sauran, Radagast the Brown and similar beings are above 6th level.

limejuicepowder

2012-11-06, 10:20 PM

I'd say the Ainur & such beings are above 6th-level.

Also, I'll clarify that there are several (even many) beings that are higher then CR 6 - I'm just saying, and a lot of people agree with me, that none of the mortal or elven races have anyone with more than 6 class levels.

There are definitely some templates going on, most notably the Nazgul. My personal vote for the best way to stat them out would be human lich paladin of tyranny 5 (the Witch King would be level 6). Yes this breaks the rules slightly as the lich template can't be added to that character, but the abilities of the class and the template reflect the Nazgul quite well.

The Balor is most definitely stronger then CR 6 (though considerable weaker than a DnD balor). I would put him (it?) in the CR 10ish range.

Gandalf is.....well there's lots of things he could be, but "not human and not mortal" is the only thing we all agree on. Still, power-wise I would make him a gestalt wizard 6//druid 3/factotum 3. He's also an outsider of somesort, with unique racial abilities.

The trolls are also probably CR 7 or so. They seem to be about equal to a hill giant, both in size and combat prowess, and hill giants are CR 7.

TuggyNE

2012-11-06, 10:35 PM

Gandalf is.....well there's lots of things he could be, but "not human and not mortal" is the only thing we all agree on. Still, power-wise I would make him a gestalt wizard 6//druid 3/factotum 3. He's also an outsider of somesort, with unique racial abilities.

Olorin is mentioned briefly in the Silmarillion; he was a Maia of moderate power, who spent most of his time in the gardens of Lorien, and learned wisdom and sympathy there.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-11-06, 10:43 PM

Poorly translated.
And highly debatable.

not to mention in dnd your average unarmored fighter is basicaly immune to being shanked in an ally unless the attacker is a master assasin.

Shanking someone in an alley is dramatically harder than most screen depictions make it out to be. Getting it right usually requires several quick jabs against someone caught completely unaware, nevermind that the typical city dweller in D&D is a commoner who only has 1-6 hp and could very easily be dropped by the combination of dagger + sneak attack in a single stroke.

Since a succesful ambush will get a suprise round, the typical commoner city-dweller will be shanked twice and be dead as hell in virtually any alley-way ambush. Particularly resilient guards (read; 1st level warriors with a bit of luck on their HD roll and/or a good con) might take a round or two of combat, but will still be dead in under 20 seconds, usually, even at the hands of a 1st level rogue.

awa

2012-11-06, 11:26 PM

Kelb_Panthera

2012-11-06, 11:32 PM

except in the real world being stabbed once with a knife at the hands of a regular person (a commoner) can be fatal.

for even a level 1 fighter 10+ hp even striking a vital location (crit) wont incapacitate him.

my point being even a level 1 fighter is an incredible bad a-s, a level 10 fighter is a demigod.

A lucky shot can kill anyone IRL. Just like a commoner might roll a crit on that dagger attack against another commoner, or be shanking a guy with only 2-4hps to begin with.

Comparing PC's of any level to your average joe on the street is a mistake, and that was my point. That and normal people murdering each other and/or being murdered by brigands isn't any more difficult in D&D than IRL.

Edit: come think of it, I probably meant those two things in the reverse of that order.

awa

2012-11-07, 12:04 AM

Kelb_Panthera

2012-11-07, 12:16 AM

Am i missing something? I don't see the point of that statement as far as i can tell your comments about commoners have no bearing on anything not on what i was talking about specifically and not about what levels the fellowship should be.

Probably not. I seem to have lost track of the fact your original statement was about a fighter getting shanked in an alley. Still, it's only around 12-14ish hp's at level one. Between the suprise round shank and the follow up shank when the rogue beats him in initiative, there's a good chance he'll get dropped. TWF alone can make it vitually guaranteed, since we're talking AC 10 here.

awa

2012-11-07, 12:23 AM

the rogue was represented as the assassin an equal to the mighty warrior

Kelb_Panthera

2012-11-07, 12:26 AM

the rogue was represented as the assassin an equal to the mighty warrior

Commoners don't often try to shank people in alleys. At least not unless you've got a corrupt government, though if that's the case why is this fighter dumb enough to be walking around unarmored? Retiree?

Occasional Sage

2012-11-07, 12:53 AM

On the topic of Legolas, PF had a feat chain for elves for mimicking that scene in the snow, no classes required.

Being a game, DnD needs to soften the deadliness slightly.

No. It chooses to. A game with full lethality can still be fun, it simply changes focus.

hymer

2012-11-07, 01:34 AM

How do we assess power? Comparative power isn't hard, the book tell us who wins encounters based on power (Gandalf the Grey just a touch mightier than the Balrog, Boromir far mightier than even elite Orcs, Nazgûl mightier than mortals, but with a fear aura that makes it hard to gauge, etc.).

I think there's certainly room for saying that the mightiest of mortals are in the level 6 range. But there's also room for saying they are in the level 20 range. And it doesn't really matter, does it? What matters is one character's power level compared to that of others.

But by all means, let's discuss. :) So, what level is Sauron, the mightiest being in Middle-earth at the time of the War of the Rings. What does it take to forge the Ring of Power, to slay the paragons of Elf and Men of his time, to dominate anyone in his presence, to see with deeper vision and to hold nations, landscapes and monumental buildings in your will, by your will?

TuggyNE

2012-11-07, 02:16 AM

But by all means, let's discuss. :) So, what level is Sauron, the mightiest being in Middle-earth at the time of the War of the Rings. What does it take to forge the Ring of Power, to slay the paragons of Elf and Men of his time, to dominate anyone in his presence, to see with deeper vision and to hold nations, landscapes and monumental buildings in your will, by your will?

Well, he's probably +4 or perhaps +6 CR over e.g. Gil-galad and Elendil, and while he has an impressive Frightful Presence, it's not unbeatable by any means; Isildur was able to resist it, and Elrond. For that matter, crafting a really amazing Ring is something that a good mid-level caster could do (remember, he learned the secrets of Ring-crafting from skilled Elf craftsmen), and use of the palantir doesn't require an enormously powerful creature to pull off. I don't think he needs to be statted as anything more than CR 12 or 13, maybe less.

Morgoth, of course, is probably CR 16 or so.

SowZ

2012-11-07, 03:07 AM

Aragorn fits a few levels of Ranger just fine. His other classes/feats are melee focused, but he is an expert archer. No reason why he didn't take archery as a combat path.

hymer

2012-11-07, 04:28 AM

(remember, he learned the secrets of Ring-crafting from skilled Elf craftsmen)

I think you'll find it was the other way around. :)
The most amazing thing about the One Ring is how it gives power according to the wearer's own power. In other words, wearing the One Ring, Sauron's own power increases by some percentage, making himself the one who benefits the very most from wearing it.
Do we have anything in 3.5 that smacks of something like this? Power that grows with the wearer's level?
Another important power of the ring is how it gives active dominance over the other rings. I guess this is as much a feature of the lesser rings as it is of the One.

This brings another thought to me: Sauron even without the One is far more powerful than Gandalf ('black is mightier still'), since Gandalf is wearing one of the Three at the time. Sauron at most would be wearing one of the Seven. Sauron, in other words, isn't just somewhat mightier even than Gandalf. He's so much stronger that even at an advantage, Gandalf has no hope of going against him directly. Which, I guess, puts Gandalf at about the same level of power, or a little less, as Gil-Galad and Elendil.
If I remember correctly, Gandalf feels that had he looked in the palantír of Orthanc, he might have been badly bested by Sauron (and therefore it was in a way fortunate that Pippin did it first). Aragorn (and Denethor) had the right to use the seeing stones, and so they managed to wrest them to their own uses despite Sauron's attempts to stop them - though both very mighty in will, they would not have been any match in a direct contest with Sauron.

TuggyNE

2012-11-07, 05:29 AM

I think you'll find it was the other way around. :)

Well, OK, some of both. Sauron didn't initially have the skill to forge the One even if he'd had targets to use it on; his scheme was therefore both to figure out better forging techniques and to extend the scope of his planned Ring's domination.

Another important power of the ring is how it gives active dominance over the other rings. I guess this is as much a feature of the lesser rings as it is of the One.

True. Without the backdoor Sauron installed, the One had far less influence over the Three — although that's not to say it was powerless over them.

This brings another thought to me: Sauron even without the One is far more powerful than Gandalf ('black is mightier still'), since Gandalf is wearing one of the Three at the time. Sauron at most would be wearing one of the Seven. Sauron, in other words, isn't just somewhat mightier even than Gandalf. He's so much stronger that even at an advantage, Gandalf has no hope of going against him directly. Which, I guess, puts Gandalf at about the same level of power, or a little less, as Gil-Galad and Elendil.

Hmm. Point. (Also, odd. That may have been a side effect of his self-limitation, but even so it seems strange.)

[quoe]If I remember correctly, Gandalf feels that had he looked in the palantír of Orthanc, he might have been badly bested by Sauron (and therefore it was in a way fortunate that Pippin did it first).[/QUOTE]

Also a good point, although it would seem the palantiri had a potentially dangerous effect on the minds of the strong on their own (i.e. without active interference they still had their own tendencies, which could be bent over years or centuries). So part of the danger there could simply have been Sauron's continuous usage building up deadly paths in the palantiri connections to each other.

awa

2012-11-07, 08:06 AM

the_archduke

2012-11-07, 02:27 PM

The One Ring looks like it was Sauron's item familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm)

Razanir

2012-11-07, 03:40 PM

Let me revise that...

I believe characters like Gandalf, Sauran, Radagast the Brown and similar beings are above 6th level.

Olorin is mentioned briefly in the Silmarillion; he was a Maia of moderate power, who spent most of his time in the gardens of Lorien, and learned wisdom and sympathy there.

The One Ring looks like it was Sauron's item familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm)

Toss on phylactery, or more exactly horcrux. His life, IIRC, was bound to the existence of the Ring

rweird

2012-11-07, 04:19 PM

I think Sauron was a ghost something at the time LotR was set, probably an outsider or Lich (maybe both) (Undead on outsider is illegal by Savage Species, but still the DM may have changed that as savage species mentions doing) before his overthrow. He probably has divination abilities.

Another possible idea is Sauron being an Elemental Weird (Not sure what type), it has at-will divination abilities and 18th level sorcerer casting. With the right feats and Magic Item Creation feats (forge ring), I think he could do everything he did in the books, for his melee prowess, he probably has some buff spells. Once he was overthrown, he became a ghost, but traded the ghost reforming with the Lich's Phylactery (The Ring), he has some spells that increase its hardness or something to make it so only 20d6 fire damage can harm it [or a equivalent dragon's breath] (The DM ruled lava does double damage and overcomes the Ring's hardness).

Sauron has made the ring his item familiar (it is intelligent and the rules for item v.s. player conflict come into play to represent the ring corrupting people, claiming it is taking Item Familiar and using the ring as your own [w/ Sauron's bonuses, counts as willingly being passed on]).

Gandalf might be a Trumpet Archon or Astral Deva (may not have enough spell casting, though that is debatable), maybe a Planetar, possibly he becomes a Planetar when he is Gandalf the White, though the grey is an Astral Deva. Though being a Planetar, that would put him equal to Sauron, meaning Sauron would have to have a few more sorcerer levels (two or three I'd think, or a few levels in a gish class, though if we can get him to epic levels, then he could use epic spell casting to make orcs, goblins, trolls, etc.), or they actually are closer matched than Gandalf said, possibly meaning Sauron is higher OP than Gandalf (perhaps Sauron has a well chosen spell list and Gandalf usually uses the example one with a few differences to explain some of the exceptional things he does).

I think Saruman is a bard, possibly a divine bard (is described to be wise), though he has charisma, maybe a few sublime chord levels, though bard represents the power of his voice. Either that or a Psionic class/Mindbender. He isn't seen casting many spells, I'm not sure how creating the Uruk-Hai would work besides homebrew, epic spell casting, refluff of leadership (though leadership can't reach the thousands of people he has, Epic Leadership can, though seeing as how Gandalf defeated him, that would shoot Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, possibly the others, to at least level 30, if not 40). Probably the villains got hordes from the DM saying so, or a refluffed version of the Avatar of the Horde Ritual (DMG II).

If Gandalf was a PC, it sounds like this was a DM's first time, a player asked to play some sort of angel, and the DM without understanding LA let him, latter he realized his mistake, sent the Balrog (a Balor) after him, though Gandalf managed to kill it and gain a bunch more levels (Gandalf might have been a powergamer but he held back for most of it, either because the DM told him to, or he didn't want to ruin the fun).

It could be that Gandalf is a powerful DMPC that the DM didn't use the rules well for so he didn't do much excepts for the occasional DM fiat.

In short, this was a DM's first time playing, though he had a great story planned out, he might have played favorites, let imbalances of power occur, and split the party multiple times. I won't venture a guess for the fellowship yet.

Rejakor

2012-11-07, 05:41 PM

just like you dont need to be a cleric to be a priest

As a note, in my games being a priest usually doesn't mean you're a cleric - the fluff supports this - most priests just have the usual HD of humanoid, or levels in expert.

Clerics are explicitly gifted by the gods with magical powers, and most temples or churches would not have one in residence - they'd be seen as awe-inspiring and amazing, and their spells are miracles.

Even if you use the faerunian-ridiculous demographics in the DMG, and you then think about how many gods and how many churches of those gods would be present in the cities as shown, even if you assume every single cleric is cloistered in a temple of some kind, and not in the military or an adventurer (or bookseller or secret cultist), you'd still need a lot of non-cleric priests even in a minimum number of temples sort of deal.

Flickerdart

2012-11-07, 06:44 PM

You don't need Epic spells to create creatures. If Saruman could cast Origin of Species, he wouldn't need the whole factory deal he had going on. More likely, he used a method similar to creating the Emerald Legion - an assembly-line of cross-breeding and templating.

rweird

2012-11-07, 06:59 PM

Razanir

2012-11-07, 07:20 PM

What sort of line of templating leads to Uruk-Hai?

IF you refluffed D&D-orcs to be LotR-orcs, uruk-hai would be similar to half-orcs

Rejakor

2012-11-07, 07:40 PM

awa

2012-11-07, 08:18 PM

i think urakai are supposed to be smarter then orcs so i would not use feral at all.

rweird

2012-11-07, 08:27 PM

There's a template called 'Blooded', you bathe in a cauldron of blood and you get +2 str and some other stuff... again, keep in mind, the reason most people's attempts to stat out other literature/whatever in DnD fails is because they try to fit it to specific DnD classes or monsters or feats. The most successful way is to look at relative power level or relative capability - trying to give something every ability it has just leads to taking 17 levels of scout and then 12 levels of wizard and then you end up with something that has MORE capability and power than the character or creature ever displayed.

Just because Origin of Species is the one printed way to permanently create a race doesn't mean that that's the only way that exists. In DnD fluff wizards can change creatures into other creatures without needing epic spells or anything, there's just no printed spell effects that do that (which is unnecessary as the PHB specifically states that new spells can be researched by wizards - it's actually a fairly good assumption that the spells in the PHB/Spell Compendium are mostly Adventuring spells, and that y'know, City Maintenance spells etc are mostly left to individual GMs).

Morgoth or Sauron originally created orcs by torturing and doing horrible things to elves so after a few generations they were changed.

Uruk-Hai are specifically a 'less degenerate' form of orc created by crossbreeding - the idea being that over time orcs have become crapper than they used to be, so back in the day they weren't as easily defeated, and uruk-hai are throwbacks.

Uruk-Hai also breed much, much faster than regular orcs. Or are 'spawned', I believe is the correct term.

If I had to make Uruk-Hai in a game, i'd give them a watered down version of the Feral template, and 3-4 racial HD instead of 1 for regular orcs.

Yes, I suppose the blooded template would work. I mentioned several other ways besides epic spell casting to create Uruk-Hai, or gaining control over them. I'd personally not give them all those racial HD (they don't seem to be able to take hits that well), I think that Hobgoblins work rather well, maybe with the blooded template.

I never claimed that epic spell casting was the only way to create Uruk-Hai. I mentioned homebrew at the beginning of the list. I'm not quite sure what your point is with this whole thing. You seem to be arguing with me, though I can't tell what you mean to argue for. I agree that having Gandalf, Sauron, etc being epic might not work so well, though it is an option, in fact, the mentioning of how things would have to be changed if that was so was me pointing out the flaws with that.

Rejakor

2012-11-07, 08:58 PM

Kelb_Panthera

2012-11-07, 09:11 PM

just like you dont need to be a cleric to be a priest
you dont need to have undergone profesional killer training to be a murdurer

a commoner can be evil and want to kill some one just as easily as a rogue

Rogue 1 is hardly professional killer training. You don't need training to murder someone, but you do need training to be a successful murderer.

Alley-way shankings fall into two categories; one time revenge things and career criminal activity.

A commoner avenging his brother would be the former. If he's trying to take that vengeance against a trained killer (fighter 1) he's going to need more than a bit of luck (wins the init after the suprise round and manages to get at least one crit.) Otherwise he's just going to get himself killed.

If we're talking about someone who's made a career out of shanking people in alleys to get their coin pouch, a 1st level rogue isn't an unreasonable assumption.

There are of course corner cases. Psycho's who are stabbing people because the voices said to, enchanted stooges being used as disposable minions, etc; but the above are the two most common means for this particular occurence.

Marlowe

2012-11-07, 11:11 PM

i think urakai are supposed to be smarter then orcs so i would not use feral at all.

In particular, they seem to be more disciplined than regular Orcs and have a certain martial pride in being an elite group. "WE ARE THE FIGHTING URUK-HAI! BRING OUT YOUR KING!" etc.

Half-Orcs actually are hinted at existing in the books, but they're much less bruisers and more sneaky types, able to insinuate themselves into human society and gather intelligence. They're not likable, but they can operate.

awa

2012-11-08, 12:21 AM

Rejakor

2012-11-08, 12:22 AM

A commoner avenging his brother would be the former. If he's trying to take that vengeance against a trained killer (fighter 1) he's going to need more than a bit of luck (wins the init after the suprise round and manages to get at least one crit.) Otherwise he's just going to get himself killed.

Well, that's why most backalley thieves looking for a bit of scratch don't try to take down Fighters (or anyone else looking tough or carrying a weapon).

And why back in the days when people were a bit more hardcore (i.e. the actual past) most 'street thieves' operated in gangs (guy's less likely to pull his sword if you have 5 dudes with you, and since most people who actually MATTER have bodyguards or buddies, it lets you rob those people too).

A rogue is specifically a guy who is a step more awesome than an expert at [Whatever], or like an expert but also good at more stuff. Sneak Attack represents a really clever dude's approach to combat - stick a knife (or the point of a rapier) in the eye-socket of their armour, don't try to batter a hole in it with a greatclub.

Saying that every backalley thief or murderer is a rogue undermines the whole point of rogues as being a cut above.

satorian

2012-11-08, 01:48 AM

It's odd to me that people seem to have some kind of vested interest in the LOTR characters being low-level. It's like some bizarre contrarian urge. It seems especially strong from the "new school" folks who don't remember that DnD is largely based on Tolkein, or aren't sure what that means. Yes, in OD&D (not AD&D!) Hobbits are hobbit classed, and elves elf class. Yadda yadda. But even if you are going solely by the movies, what exactly would you assign a CR encounter of an Oliphant (probably a +4 to +6 template on top of an elephant -- 2 size increases and other goodies), with a rider and several literal hangers-on, all seemingly seasoned warriors? What level would someone have to be to solo such an encounter? Not 6. And yet Legolas did so, without a scratch. Boromir soloed a double digit number of orcs before falling. Legolas and Gimli took out dozens(!) of orcs pretty much every time they had the chance.

Clearly the game and the books are not the same thing. Still, there is no reason to believe that these are weak characters, even by DnD superhero standards.

tyckspoon

2012-11-08, 02:02 AM

. But even if you are going solely by the movies, what exactly would you assign a CR encounter of an Oliphant (probably a +4 to +6 template on top of an elephant -- 2 size increases and other goodies), with a rider and several literal hangers-on, all seemingly seasoned warriors? What level would someone have to be to solo such an encounter? Not 6....

I would actually frame this as the Oliphant not really being a direct participant in the fight- before Legolas scales it, it's a terrain hazard, something Legolas can easily duck around with a good Reflex save. After he does, it's not part of the fight, it's just the ground the fight is happening on. And from there, yes, a level 6 character can easily take out a handful of (probably) level 1 Warriors and their level 2 or 3 captain.

satorian

2012-11-08, 02:04 AM

But he kills the oliphant, not just the soldiers. And he does so solo.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-11-08, 02:14 AM

A standard gang member should not be better trained then a standard guard (normally depicted as a level 1 warrior) pc classes are for exceptional individuals particularly in a semi realistic world such as the lord of the rings.

A standard gang member isn't better than a standard town guard..... in a standup fight. But if he can catch him unawares on his day off, then he has the necessary skills to drop him.

Comparing rogue 1 to warrior 1 the warrior has the bigger HD, the higher BaB, and quite probably weapon focus. He is probably better armed and armored too, being a town guard and not a street hoodlum. Without the tactical advantage of suprise, the rogue barely has a chance.

An on-duty guard will be at least lightly armored and he should be taking 10 on a spot or listen check each round as he patrols. Nevermind his having backup, since only the most thinly stretched town watch won't have its guards at least in pairs.

Most PC classes are for exceptional individuals, but thugs that actually have the stones to stab a town guard to death are exceptional. Killing someone has a dramatically more pronounced psychological effect than most people seem to think, and the idea of killing an authority figure has that much more baggage attached. Someone who can ignore this isn't a normal person.

Rejakor

2012-11-08, 03:36 AM

In the old days town watch/guard/policemen whatever used to patrol in groups because violence/killing was both more common and less of a big deal for people already used to a much harder life.

Largely thanks to that patrolling in groups thing, there wasn't as much stabbing as the hardcoreness of the times would indicate.

That said, DnD doesn't really model the whole 'getting the drop on someone' thing particularly well except through sneak attack, and getting the drop on someone isn't limited to rogues in real life. So i'd just chalk it up to that, and assume that while an AWESOME ASSASSIN GUY probably has levels in rogue (if not necessarily the assassin prestige class) regular common streetpad guy probably does NOT have levels in rogue, having humanoid hitdice or at best levels in expert.

Wise Green Bean

2012-11-08, 04:17 AM

But he kills the oliphant, not just the soldiers. And he does so solo.

When you watch the movie, it sort of looks like a coup de grace. Not following the normal rules for coup de grace, obviously, but the elephant can't get to him, giving Legolas time to line up the shot from 2 feet away and shoot in the most lethal spot he can manage. That's not a fight, that's a slaughter.

Actually, looked up the text for coup de grace. It mentions, "otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy" as a potential condition that would allow it. If the elephant can't really touch him(and might not even be aware he's there), I could see a DM calling that fair conditions for it.

On the issue of Gandalf. It depends on if you want him to match what he does in the party or what he's supposed to be. An aasimar/factotum with a few levels on the rest of the party could do what he did most of the time, but if you want him to be something more, some crazy over-powered and somehow restrained outsider fits. Personally, if I were running the campaign and had to designate a PC Gandalf, I'd take solution one. Lots of skills, decent in combat, and occasional magic(tell me he didn't use shatter on the Bridge of Khazadoom(yeah, I know how awesome my spelling is)) seems to fit his shtick. Just change the fluff and leave the mechanics. He's level 10 and most of the rest are level 6ish(lower for hobbits).

Sword and board fighter(though the argument could be made for knight, the way he tanked the uruk hai) for Boromir, no question. 18 CON and toughness.

Aragorn definitely has ranger levels, but not many, and he traded away the animal companion. Probably fighter levels after 1 or 2 in ranger, and some LA for being Numenorian(again, my spelling is awesome). Fair mix of archery and swordsmanship, with good tracking and skills. He does not seem to have a dump stat either. Maybe CHA? Maybe.

Legolas is probably similar to Aragorn with more of an archery focus. Can't track for beans cuz mr. fancy pants prince doesn't need survival, he has people who do that for him. Maybe a level of aristocrat too.

Gimli is some sort of very effective fighter, again with a dash of aristocrat.

I'd start Frodo off with a level of aristocrat and move him on to rogue or survivor. He's not much good in combat, but damn if he can't make a save, and he has a fair amount of skills(sneaking, artsy stuff, etc). Iron will feat and 18 wisdom.

Sam starts as an expert(use rope, profession: gardener/farmer, sneaking), and I find myself agreeing with a few paladin levels. He makes his save against the ring, fends off evil, and so on and so forth.

Merry and Pippin probably start aristocrat and go rogue. No question, he sneak attacked the lich king.

Gandalf, level 10(unless he's some sort of super angel who doesn't use his powers), Aragorn level 7 if only for his badass bloodline, Gimli and Legolas around 6, Borimir around 5. Hobbits start at 1 and move up to level 3 or so over the campaign. Throughout, they cut through a butt load of level 1 mooks, occasionally running into something extra. Nazgul are probably CR 6 or 8, and I agree with the balrog as 10ish.

Gwendol

2012-11-08, 04:54 AM

In particular, they seem to be more disciplined than regular Orcs and have a certain martial pride in being an elite group. "WE ARE THE FIGHTING URUK-HAI! BRING OUT YOUR KING!" etc.

Half-Orcs actually are hinted at existing in the books, but they're much less bruisers and more sneaky types, able to insinuate themselves into human society and gather intelligence. They're not likable, but they can operate.

They are disciplined, they can move unhindered in daylight, and they can march at speed with superhuman stamina (the latter seem to include the Mordor orcs as well). Saruman's Uruk-Hai are described as tall and straight, and very strong, while the Mordor variety is bow-legged and shorter.

Half-orcs are seen in the Shire as the hobbits return, and at the prancing pony when they head out. They seem indeed to have been sneaky, and operating in human societies.

Jeraa

2012-11-08, 09:12 AM

As for Legolas soloing the oliphant, that could also e a case of the Instant Kill rule. Yes, its a variant rule, but its still in the DMG (page 28), and its entirely possible that LotRs would use it.

All Legolas would of needed to do was roll a natural 20, followed by another natural 20, then roll again and hit the oliphants AC. Instant death, no save. Its entirely possible, using that rule, to kill an oliphant at 1st level with a single shot if that variant is used.

Does Legolas continually solo oliphants? If not, then its totally possible he just got very lucky on that one.

And for Boromir soloing some uruks? You have to remember a normal Tolkien orc/goblin is smaller then your average human. They are not D&D orcs. An uruk-hai is bigger, so may be your standard D&D orc (without the light sensitivity). What level do you need to be to solo about a dozen CR 1/2 orcs? (Uruks were not supersoldiers. Regular men could still kill them. They couldn't of been too strong then if Warrior 1-2 could kill them.)

awa

2012-11-08, 10:51 AM

In the real world a war elephants riders carried a hammer and chisel to put down his elephant with a blow right behind the head if it went berserk. Legoless did the exact same thing just with a bow.

A level 6 fighter with good stats and great cleave could kill a dozen orcs in 6 seconds provided they were nice enough to stand close together.

I agree that the oliphant was an interesting piece of terrain not a monster. Note how legoless climbed it by dnd rules that is impposible for a normal charecter.

Seharvepernfan

2012-11-08, 11:38 AM

I'll take a swing at it. I believe that lotr is an E6 world (or was at the time, anyway). There are spellcasters in Lotr, but generally nothing flashy or evocation.

Gandalf the White: Aasimar fits almost perfectly, if only one of the resistances was fire. I don't think he would qualify for an actual celestial, and I don't think he needs to be greater than 6th level, but I would make him gestalt.
Paladin 5/Diviner 1 (staff-related familiar ability)//Cloistered Cleric 6 (Good, Magic, Knowledge). Maybe less cleric levels and more Diviner, and maybe the paladin levels are some sort of substitute that is more wizardly (no heavy armor, no lay on hands). Regardless, I think it fits him pretty well. As an E6 character, he's been sixth level for quite some time and has tons of extra feats. Gandalf the Grey was probably the same thing, but not so much paladin added in.

Aragorn: High stats Ranger 3/Paladin 3. The combat style feat should be related to using just one sword, otherwise I think it's as simple as that. High Strength.

Legolas: Scout 3/Ranger 3 - works, but I think he should have a bab of +6. As far as I know, he doesn't track or display any ability with traps or locks, so maybe he could trade that in for more bab? I could also see him having Flawless Stride. Maxed Dex & listen/spot, only has one knife in the books, tons of archery feats. In the movie, he has twf and, if I remember correctly, manyshot.

Gimli: Fighter 6. Since he never uses heavy armor or tower shields (to my knowledge), I would have him trade those away for more skill points and class skills. Greataxe Specialization, Great Cleave, Endurance, probably Maxed Con (since aragorn seems to be high str, and legolas max dex, I'd think that gimli therefore would be max con - however the only indication of this is the fact that he kept up with aragorn and legolas when tracking the uruks despite wearing medium armor and being a dwarf - otherwise, when does ever get hit or have to make a fort save?).

Boromir: High Strength, most likely a sword n board fighter 6. In the movie, I'd say he had Power Attack and Quick Draw, in addition to any sword n board stuff. Probably Bastard Sword focused. Maybe a level of ranger for favored enemy: Orc - I don't know if he can track or is any good with animals - it could even just be a feat. You could argue that he has at least one level of aristocrat (probably first), if only to have nobility related skills (diplomacy, knowledge, etc.) - or maybe he's a marshal (though he didn't display much leadership ability while in the fellowship), but that would mean having less than a +6 bab.
He's either not good, or has a lower will save than the others, but that doesn't mean he's bad or it's bad. It also may just be that he's extremely loyal to his nation/people, and it mentally/emotionally weary from having Mordor constantly knocking on his door.

Frodo: High mental stats all-round, probably expert/survivor. I don't have savage species, but I think survivor fits. Probably high Con as well, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Luck of Heroes. The Item Familiar ability is UA pretty much shows him with Sting.

Sam, Merry, Pip: Beats me. Probably 3rd level Experts. I never payed as much attention to them, but I never saw anything not covered by this, except for maybe sneak attack. You could say Rogues in Merry & Pips case, and I wouldn't argue. I'd say Pip has low wisdom. Sam has some sort of devotion related stuff, but I don't know what.

Galadriel could be a wizard or sorcerer. Elrond is probably an aristocrat or cleric (or both).

I'd say the Ring-wraiths could be as simple as Wight Aristocrats...but I'm sure there is something much more fitting.

I don't think there is really anything special about Uruks, you could just use good str/con warriors. I would probably make them half-orc warriors with a racial bonus to intimidate (or else dropping the Cha penalty), but that's not necessary if you give them Intimidate Focus or something. Endurance, Banded Mail, Tower shields on some, spiked heavy shields on others. Lurg was probably a barbarian/ranger.

Saruman is something like Gandalf, minus the paladin-ness - probably just maxed Diviner instead. Leadership, Cohort: Grima, beguiler?

Sauron...I think probably a high level cleric. Great Cleave, item creation feats, leadership (that's an understatement). As the eye, he seems to just be an intelligent magic item.

awa

2012-11-08, 11:54 AM

Worm tongue i don't see as a beguiler because he only ever influenced one person and didn't show any other abilities.

Marlowe

2012-11-08, 12:08 PM

He's either not good, or has a lower will save than the others, but that doesn't mean he's bad or it's bad. It also may just be that he's extremely loyal to his nation/people, and it mentally/emotionally weary from having Mordor constantly knocking on his door.

Boromir is a funny one. One of his lines during the council is "Although I do not beg for help, we need it".

Which is as fine a display of hypocritical emotional blackmail as any in print.

He's very much motivated by keeping up his position, and this is unsupportable given the presence of Aragon, whose "rightful place" is a major point for all the other Good Guys, and cannot co-exist with the continued dignity and power of the Stewards of Gondor.

Let's just say I pity him. But the movies were kinder to him than they needed to be.

TuggyNE

2012-11-08, 06:03 PM

Worm tongue i don't see as a beguiler because he only ever influenced one person and didn't show any other abilities.

That's not really true. He presumably worked his way subtly through various lower-ranking members of the court to get his position initially, and we know for a fact that he had a strong influence on Eowyn (despite her best efforts to resist).

CarpeGuitarrem

2012-11-08, 06:15 PM

What are the Tolkien characters in 3.5?

Nowhere to be found. :smalltongue:

rweird

2012-11-08, 06:17 PM

My post wasn't directed at you.

It was directed at the thread in general.

And if Sauron was Epic, then under DnD rules the entire LotR tale was hand-waving and homebrew, as epic wizards can detect the presence of people, swarm the countryside with much better minions than orcs.. his spell list would essentially have to be incredibly incredibly small to not be able to find the party except via incredible DM handwaving. Unless gandalf was also Epic, at which point, the entire tale is 'Gandalf effortlessly defeats Sauron's spells because he is higher optimized and also an Epic level wizard, and gives his minions (the party) some orcs to fight because lol'.

And the fact that that isn't the worst plot for a DnD campaign i've ever heard should make some faerun adventure writers feel very very bad about themselves.

Most of the people aren't optimized, that's for sure, I think it sounds like most of the players and possibly the DM hadn't played before, and people thought that magic was to complicated to use much, so everyone pretty much did melee or ranged, and even though may of the people may be high level (villains), they didn't really cast spells and just hit stuff when they show up. If LotR was high OP, it would have been something like Teleport to Mt. Doom, throw the ring in, teleport out if they were high level. If they where low level, the might go and kill a bunch of Orcs, go to Gondor, any when a caster can teleport, BAM!

Long and short: LotR is low OP, and with low OP, even at high levels, wizards aren't all powerful.

Snowbluff

2012-11-08, 06:19 PM

Long and short: LotR is low OP, and with low OP, even at high levels, wizards aren't all powerful.

I actually agreed here. Gandalf kills a balor. He has to be high level. There are probably other good examples around the books as well.

Seharvepernfan

2012-11-08, 06:33 PM

I actually agreed here. Gandalf kills a balor. He has to be high level. There are probably other good examples around the books as well.

Except that it's not really a balor. It's just a huge fire/shadow demon. Yes, balors are based off of it, but they came after.

rweird

2012-11-08, 06:40 PM

I actually agreed here. Gandalf kills a balor. He has to be high level. There are probably other good examples around the books as well.

I think Gandalf very well was the only high OP character, though he held back a lot, the DM wanted to kill him, Gandalf was like "If your sending a freaking Balor at me, the gloves come off." he fought it, and beat it because the balor just tried to melee/grapple him while Gandalf became more batman-like and, once they reached the tower, he cast downdraft and killed the balor from the fall damage. He gained a bunch of levels after that, though he had a talk with the DM and they came to an agreement that stopped the growing PvDM mentality, and for the rest, the only noticable different was Gandalf was more inspiring (took social skills, maybe increase CHA), and he got better in melee (better BaB).

I think the Balrog is a Balor, LotR predated D&D in general, though this is assuming LotR is a D&D campaign.

Snowbluff

2012-11-08, 06:40 PM

Except that it's not really a balor. It's just a huge fire/shadow demon. Yes, balors are based off of it, but they came after.

Balor are Belrogs for the purposes of this thread. Unless you have a similiar creature to fill it in for here.

Jeraa

2012-11-08, 06:44 PM

Except that it's not really a balor. It's just a huge fire/shadow demon. Yes, balors are based off of it, but they came after.

Not only that, but they also received power boosts through many editions. The original Balor in the 1st edition monster manual only had an average of 44 hitpoints. (8 hitdice, +8 hitpoints). Was only worth 3600 xp+12xp per hitpoint. Dragon turtles were worth 7200xp, +18 xp per hitpoint. Now in 3.5, the Balor has a CR of 20, and the Dragon Turtle a CR of 9.

If you want to compare the Balrog to a Balor, at least use the original Balor. Not one based on the original Balor, but undergoing 30 years of powercreep.

Seharvepernfan

2012-11-08, 06:44 PM

Balor are Belrogs for the purposes of this thread. Unless you have a similiar creature to fill it in for here.

Oh? Says who?

Didn't know you were the OP, carry on.

Somebody earlier mentioned that they think the Balrog wasn't more than CR 10, I'd say I have to agree...so a Lesser Balor?

Snowbluff

2012-11-08, 06:50 PM

Oh? Says who?

Didn't know you were the OP, carry on.

Somebody earlier mentioned that they think the Balrog wasn't more than CR 10, I'd say I have to agree...so a Lesser Balor?

That's okay. Generally, Orcs are Orcs and Balrogs are Balors. We have to analogues for everything, the Balor fits perfectly.

Uh, if we have an actually creature, sure, but this is the thing that killed all of those dwarves as well. Digging too deep, etc.

limejuicepowder

2012-11-08, 07:05 PM

That's okay. Generally, Orcs are Orcs and Balrogs are Balors. We have to analogues for everything, the Balor fits perfectly.

Uh, if we have an actually creature, sure, but this is the thing that killed all of those dwarves as well. Digging too deep, etc.

It didn't actually kill all of those dwarves; the orcs and goblins played a large part as well (I don't really have anything to back this up, but my strong suspicion is that the orcs and goblins killed most of the dwarves - the balrog just set things in motion. The corruption of the balrog drew the orcs and goblins out of their hidey-holes or what have you).

Just to note, a full CR 20 balor has a series of extremely powerful SLA's that are available at will. This is not fitting with the image of the balrog or the setting in general.

Jeraa

2012-11-08, 07:21 PM

It didn't actually kill all of those dwarves; the orcs and goblins played a large part as well (I don't really have anything to back this up, but my strong suspicion is that the orcs and goblins killed most of the dwarves - the balrog just set things in motion. The corruption of the balrog drew the orcs and goblins out of their hidey-holes or what have you).

Just to note, a full CR 20 balor has a series of extremely powerful SLA's that are available at will. This is not fitting with the image of the balrog or the setting in general.

There were no orcs or goblins there when the Balrog was released, so they played no part in the fall of Moria. They only arrived after the Dwarves were kicked out/killed. And Sauron sent more some time later.

Goblins/Orcs did fight against the Dwarves when the Dwarves tried to retake Moria about 900 years after its fall (the dwarves actually succeeded in defeating the goblins/orcs, but the Balor prevented the dwarves from occupying Moria), and were also were responsible for Balins expedition failing after that about 200 years after that.

Zonugal

2012-11-08, 07:25 PM

I think the most important creature to stat out for such a comparison like this is the Balrog. After figuring out what that properly equates to we can take a look at Gandalf and from him do Saruman and others.

I also think it is important to note just what kind of battle Gandalf had with the Balrog.

As Gandalf faced the Balrog he said, "You cannot pass!", and broke the Bridge beneath the Balrog. As it fell, the Balrog wrapped its whip about Gandalf's knees, dragging him to the brink. As the Fellowship looked on in horror, Gandalf cried "Fly, you fools!" and fell.

After the long fall, the two landed in a subterranean lake, which extinguished the flames of the Balrog's body; however it remained "a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake". They fought in the water, with the Balrog clutching at Gandalf to strangle him, and Gandalf hewing the Balrog with his sword, until finally the Balrog fled into ancient tunnels of unknown origin. Gandalf pursued the creature for eight days, until they climbed to the peak of Zirakzigil, where the Balrog was forced to turn and fight once again, its body erupting into new flame. Here they fought for two days and nights. In the end, the Balrog was defeated and cast down, breaking the mountainside where it fell "in ruin". Gandalf himself died following this ordeal, but he was later sent back to Middle-earth with even greater powers, as Gandalf the White, "until his task was finished".

Snowbluff

2012-11-08, 07:34 PM

Leveled from 8 day battle.
Higher powers than him decide to do a favor.

Sounds crazy.

rweird

2012-11-08, 08:01 PM

I don't think the Balrog was played well. The Balrog Balor having Greater Teleport at-will means that he'd just teleport to the fellowship after pulling Gandalf down, use Blasphemy and neutralize the fellowship unless they are over level 15. Once he claims the ring, he'd be even stronger. I think that it pretty much tried to grapple Gandalf, Gandalf got a freedom of movement off, the Balor didn't notice and kept trying and failing and Gandalf took AoO until the Balor ran, on the mountain top they traded blows again, though I don't think the battle really could last multiple days unless they both have SLAs that they trade (maybe Gandalf cast a bunch of SoD and the Balor counterspelled the with Greater Dispel Magic, though Gandalf would run out of spell slots). I really think that we'd need to assume Gandalf is either an outsider with SLAs, or we'd need to assume the battle was quicker than it was said to be in the book.

satorian

2012-11-08, 08:55 PM

The Balor and Balrog may not really be a perfect fit, though I'd say that the Balrog was stronger than the CR 10 above. It did kill a LOT of dwarves, many of whoom probably had class levels. It was so beyond the ken of Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas and Gimli (not counting the hobbits) that their only option was to run. If they were CR6, and it was CR 10, they could have stood their ground in a challenging encounter.

Still, it is really hard to believe that the Balrog had all the SLAs of a Balor, or that anything in LoTR did. I could see Sauron with the ring having blasphemy, but that's kinda it. The Balrog probably had high DR/magic, with at will fireball/engulf and darkness.

Rejakor

2012-11-08, 10:29 PM

Keep in mind, the fellowship of the ring are, by the standards of their world, awesome epic heroes. Gimli is like, an epic dwarf, and legolas is an epic elf. Their respective races sent the /best/ of their people.

And let's remember that gandalf is the second most powerful member of a powerful order of people who control the world.

So that Balrog did not need special off-screen powers to slaughter the dwarves. It had a fear aura, and it had DR/good, and it had a flame aura and fast-healing. That's all it needed to kill a bunch of level 1-4 dwarves. /and drive the rest off.

Seriously, read the other books. Most of the dwarves of kazad-dum freaking RAN AWAY. They already had goblin problems and other issues. The balrog was just the straw that broke the camel's back. You know that tomb they find? That was a crazy dude and his followers who stayed behind. Most of the dwarves simply LEFT.

Anyway, Gandalf, level 7 paladin, gets tackled by this CR 10 monstrosity, and they fall into a lake of slime (which cushions their fall enough that gandalf survives it). He lays on hands, is immune to fear, and gets to work with his Holy Longsword. The balrog is like 'whatthefrog, this guy can get through my DR, he must be super epic' and runs off to let his fast healing work. But in the tight stairway, gandalf keeps stabbing him from behind, and eventually they reach a mountaintop, gandalf has the dude cornered, and they slash and bash it up, with gandalf using combat expertise to good effect, and nearly dead, his lay on hands used up, gandalf uses a magic item or feat or something to contact some Celestial Great Eagles to come help him out off the mountaintop.

Gandalf is using Luminous Armour from BoED, that's why he shines with light when stuff gets dangerous, and why he's an unarmoured paladin.

He might also be a Saint Serenity Monkadin, which would explain both the glow (Saint), why he is relatively ascetic, and why he doesn't wear armour.

But yeah, if gandalf is level 17, and the balrog is a balor, then I don't know why the party is fighting orcs. Gandalf is a ******** DMPC who could have solved the entire problem with any of a dozen hundred PHB spells alone, and does stuff like 'searching' for people who he could find with a spell and god knows what else.

It makes much more sense for the Balrog to be a CR9-10 fire demon thing, rather than a Balor who doesn't ever use any of his abilities on screen because of 'uh, no reason'.

And it makes much more sense for Gandalf to be a paladin or serenity monkadin, than a wizard who never uses spells. Seriously, he uses 'light' and 'turn undead'. That's it. Everything else is Kn: Arcana or Religion checks, swordfighting, or haberdashery.

Jeraa

2012-11-08, 10:56 PM

And let's remember that gandalf is the second most powerful member of a powerful order of people who control the world.

The Istari don't control the world - they are advisors at best. Except when Saruman desides he wants to be in charge.

Seriously, read the other books. Most of the dwarves of kazad-dum freaking RAN AWAY. They already had goblin problems and other issues. The balrog was just the straw that broke the camel's back. You know that tomb they find? That was a crazy dude and his followers who stayed behind. Most of the dwarves simply LEFT.

The tomb had nothing to do with that. That is Balins tomb. One of the Dwarves from the Hobbit, and Gimlis first cousin, once removed. Moria fell a thousand years before Balin and his followers re-entered Moria. (Also, the Balrog had nothing to do with Balins death, or the death of his followers. That was all orcs/goblins.)

and nearly dead, his lay on hands used up, gandalf uses a magic item or feat or something to contact some Celestial Great Eagles to come help him out off the mountaintop.

Gandalf didn't escape the mountain. He died. But as he isn't mortal, it didn't matter. His job wasn't done, so he was sent back to complete it (by Eru himself, the only god in Middle Earth).

Rejakor

2012-11-08, 11:36 PM

The Istari don't control the world - they are advisors at best. Except when Saruman desides he wants to be in charge.

They're the dudes who got left in charge by the other dudes. Essentially, they are the most individually powerful people on the planet.

The tomb had nothing to do with that. That is Balins tomb. One of the Dwarves from the Hobbit, and Gimlis first cousin, once removed. Moria fell a thousand years before Balin and his followers re-entered Moria. (Also, the Balrog had nothing to do with Balins death, or the death of his followers. That was all orcs/goblins.)

You're right, i'm thinking of that other mad king.

Gandalf didn't escape the mountain. He died. But as he isn't mortal, it didn't matter. His job wasn't done, so he was sent back to complete it (by Eru himself, the only god in Middle Earth).

I'm pretty sure that was fluff.

However being brought back to life by a deity sounds like more a cleric/paladin thing than any wizard thing.

Razanir

2012-11-08, 11:43 PM

Keep in mind, the fellowship of the ring are, by the standards of their world, awesome epic heroes. Gimli is like, an epic dwarf, and legolas is an epic elf. Their respective races sent the /best/ of their people.

Yes, but this could easily be an E6 setting.

The Istari don't control the world - they are advisors at best. Except when Saruman desides he wants to be in charge.

This. Eru Ilúvatar > Ainur. Within the Ainur, Valar > Maiar. Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Sauron, the oft-forgotten blue wizards (Alatar and Pallando), and balrogs are Maiar. And yes, there are multiple balrogs. Durin's Bane wasn't even the strongest one. The strongest was Gothmog. Hmm... Now that I think about it, what if all the balrogs had varying amounts of levels in a balor monster class? That could explain how Durin's Bane was weaker than Gothmog, to the point of being CR 10.

And two questions that we seriously need to agree upon:
1) E6 or Forgotten Realms (Higher levels are reasonable)?
2) Books or movies primarily?

I vote E6 and books

Snowbluff

2012-11-09, 12:09 AM

It's not E6. Balrogs/Balors(CR10?) and stuff.

LeshLush

2012-11-09, 12:13 AM

It's not E6. Balrogs/Balors(CR10?) and stuff.
I agree. It's not like E6 and Everybody is High-Op Level 20 are our only two options.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-11-09, 12:14 AM

It's not E6. Balrogs/Balors(CR10?) and stuff.

That just makes it E6 with an asshat DM.

"We're capped at level 6 and you send a balor after us?! D-bag. :smallfurious:" :smalltongue:

LeshLush

2012-11-09, 12:37 AM

That just makes it E6 with an asshat DM.

"We're capped at level 6 and you send a balor after us?! D-bag. :smallfurious:" :smalltongue:
And then Gandalf solos it.

TuggyNE

2012-11-09, 12:48 AM

And then Gandalf solos it.

I have to admit, nothing in all the world looks more like a DMPC than that.

Jeraa

2012-11-09, 12:49 AM

And then Gandalf solos it.

But dies doing so. So he only just barely soloed it. (And like I mentioned above with Legolas and the Oliphant, the Instant Kill varient rule could of been in effect. That would of allowed any of the fellowship to potentially kill the Balrog)

If Gandalf is not a player character, but a plot device, then it doesn't matter what CR the Balrog/Balor is. Its not something the players (the rest of the fellowship) were meant to fight. The fight happened the way the DM wanted it to.

Gandalf works better as a plot device then a PC anyway. And it fits a pattern. The major bosses aren't killed by the PCs. Saruman is killed by Wormtongue. The battle of Minas Tirith is ended with Aragorns immortal, invulnerable ghost army. Sauron isn't killed in battle, he dies when the ring is tossed into the volcano (death by plot device - And Frodo didn't even do it. Gollum fell into the lava with the ring). If Gandalf is also a Plot Device, then the death of the Balrog fits. The battle at Helm's Deep is won by Gandalfs arrival with Eomer.

Gandalf isn't a PC. Tolkien is just bad DM.

toapat

2012-11-09, 12:52 AM

I have to admit, nothing in all the world looks more like a DMPC than that.

the general agreement on Gandalf is that:

He is the highest level character in the campaign
He is a DMPC He is the DM
He is not a wizard. he may have any other casting class though, perhaps all of them.

ravagerofworlds

2012-11-09, 12:55 AM

As someone who actually played MERPS (Middle Earth RPG System) by ICE (Iron Crown Enterprises) back in the 1990s... it was an offshoot of the Rolemaster system, which basically capped at level 10 for player characters, but which NPCs (like Glorfindel, Elrond, etc.) reached level 40 and 50 respectively, as did the various lower Maiar like Gandalf (40 as Grey, and 50 as White). Sauron's boss, the Valar Melkor was like 666 in that system.

So a Balor, which is CR 20 or so... doesn't really match up as a an equal to Durin's Bane (take a Balor and add like 15HD more)

As for the actual character classes....
Gandalf- Epic level Mystic Theurge with levels in Cleric/Wizard
Aragorn- High level Ranger/Fighter
Legolas- High level Ranger/Fighter
Gimli- Fighter/Dwarven Defender
Hobbits- Commoners/Rogues
Gollum- Exp/Rogue

Remember peeps... D&D is based on LotR... and the Ranger class is based on Aragorn. This isn't did the egg come first type of thing... we know the chronology. We know that Star Trek influenced the very first RPG session ever (the Blackmoor campaign, when the previous year at a war gaming session someone gave phasers to Egyptian infantry back in 68/69 -"Shared Fantasy" 1981, Gary Alan Fine).

toapat

2012-11-09, 12:58 AM

Remember peeps... D&D is based on LotR... and the Ranger class is based on Aragorn. This isn't did the egg come first type of thing... we know the chronology. We know that Star Trek influenced the very first RPG session ever (the Blackmoor campaign, when the previous year at a war gaming session someone gave phasers to Egyptian infantry back in 68/69 -"Shared Fantasy" 1981, Gary Alan Fine).

not 3/3.5. ADnD they were still like lvl 7s

Snowbluff

2012-11-09, 01:24 AM

That just makes it E6 with an asshat DM.

"We're capped at level 6 and you send a balor after us?! D-bag. :smallfurious:" :smalltongue:

Actually this makes too much sense. Half the party spends their time doing nothing but hiding from orcs and goblins that they can't be in a fight.

Rejakor

2012-11-09, 01:59 AM

As someone who actually played MERPS (Middle Earth RPG System) by ICE (Iron Crown Enterprises) back in the 1990s... [stuff]

Sorry, but you're making the assumption that just because it was a published game system (rolemaster, ugh), that the writers knew what was what.

Sadly, and especially in the roleplaying game industry, that's not something you can assume.

There's only one way to actually judge any character and stat them - and that's to look at what they ACTUALLY DO, and assume that that is the limit of their power and capability, and judge that capability and power on something like the tier system, and then assign them a class that fits. You can't say 'oh, once this character shot a beam of light from his head that did about 1500 damage to a wall, so he must be a high level sorcerer' if this guy does literally nothing else that a sorcerer could or would do ever again. You assume it was a one off or plot macguffin thingy and move on.

Gandalf doesn't cast spells. He never does it. He casts like 'Light' and fights with a sword. Thus his most likely class is Paladin. And hey, he's lawful good, and through roleplay it turns out that he has the Celestial template - the shoe fits.

Everyone else in the party is lower level than gandalf. Their classes are pretty obvious. Frodo is a talky rogue or factotum with a high will save as his player played Bilbo in the earlier game and knows about the Ring. Sam is a rogue. Pippin and Merry are rogue/something elses. Aragorn is a straight TWF ranger. Legolas is a swift hunter. Boromir is a fighter. Gimli is a full plate THF fighter dwarf.

And that's that's that's all folks.

Jeraa

2012-11-09, 02:11 AM

Gandalf doesn't cast spells. He never does it. He casts like 'Light' and fights with a sword. Thus his most likely class is Paladin. And hey, he's lawful good, and through roleplay it turns out that he has the Celestial template - the shoe fits.

You are missing a few things. (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gandalf#Weaker_Magical_Abilities) Gandalf has more magical powers then casting Light.

Ignoring the video-game specific ones:

Lightning Strike: This power is clearly described in the book The Hobbit in the Misty Mountains while escaping from an orc horde (obviously as Gandalf the Grey). He kills a few orcs and temporarily hides. The cartoon version of The Hobbit also boasts him using it during the Battle of Five Armies.

Fire: Gandalf uses the power of fire in the Hobbit, to light pinecones in multi-colored fire and to throw them at wolves; he also uses fire in the Fellowship of the Ring to cast ablaze a bundle of wood, and a large cluster of trees to stay warm, and to combat more wolves.

Shield of the Istari: Gandalf can also conjure up a magical shield to protect himself from enemy attacks. It is shown in the movies only once, when Gandalf stands against the Balrog's flaming sword. However, on the extended version of The Return of the King, Gandalf uses the shield of Istari to protect himself from a spell cast by Saruman.

Sword of Power: In the film adaptation of The Two Towers, while Gandalf was facing the Balrog, he charged his sword Glamdring with lightning. He then struck his foe and killed him. It is unknown whether Gandalf actually summoned the lightning or simply attracted it toward Glamdring, but either way, his sword had extra power, enough to slay the Balrog of Morgoth.

Magical Kinesis: Gandalf the Grey was also capable of pushing his foes back with his staff, as shown in the movie when he battles Saruman in Orthanc. He tried to defeat Saruman as best as he could, but the White Wizard's power was too great for him to withstand. Eventually, Saruman stole Gandalf's staff and transported him to the top of Orthanc.

What exactly Gandalfs powers are isn't clear though, as he does wear one of the elven Rings of Power (Narya, the Ring of Fire). It could be the rings powers, not Gandalfs.

satorian

2012-11-09, 02:44 AM

Gandalf also did something with fire or lightning on Weathertop. Saying he only used light kinda means one only saw the movies and never read the books. The light thing was only a dramatic description in the books.

What did he actually do? Use fire and lightning. Whenever he had to. I think it is also reasonable to believe that he used some bad-mamma-jamma magic to survive the battle with the Balrog. I think it's pretty safe to assume it was physically stronger than he was, but he used magic to survive the ordeal. The magic was not vancian, but it was magic.

But yeah, even if you just go by the movies, he uses telekinesis, that that light wasn't just light but some sort of positive energy, that he uses fire and lightning repeatedly (not just a single casting) on Weathertop, and he uses a force shield of some sort with the Balrog. Also magical fireworks/advanced illusions. Not E6 stuff.

Seharvepernfan

2012-11-09, 04:51 AM

I almost mentioned the pine cones thing in my build suggestion, but other than Fire Seeds, I don't know how to duplicate it. Pyrotechnics?

The force field could just be the Shield spell, or a Magic Circle vs. Evil. The glowing light on his sword could be Bless Weapon, or even Smite Evil.

In the movies, he uses telekinesis and has that lightning sword effect, yes, but that doesn't mean that he casts them as spells. The telekinesis seemed bound to the staffs, and the lighting sword thing could also just be a fancy-looking Smite Evil (or more likely, some paladin spell).

Somebody just mentioned that he wore an Elven Ring of Fire, so he doesn't need to be a wizard to use fire stuff.

I think the stats I used are still accurate (post 116, for newcomers).

Darius Kane

2012-11-09, 05:25 AM

Keep in mind, the fellowship of the ring are, by the standards of their world, awesome epic heroes. Gimli is like, an epic dwarf, and legolas is an epic elf. Their respective races sent the /best/ of their people.
Not exactly. They were the leaders and nobles. They volunteered to accompany Frodo just because no one else wanted and they believed this is the best way to defeat Sauron. They probably were the best of the best, but they weren't sent because they were the best, but because they wanted to go.

limejuicepowder

2012-11-09, 07:33 AM

Not (entirely) trying to change the subject here, but why does no one think any member of the fellowship is a ToB class? Seriously if someone who frequents gitp knows one thing, it's that PHB mundanes suck and ToB is what they should have been.

To me, straight fighter for gimli is selling him short, big time, and it's even worse calling aragorn a ranger or ranger/fighter.

While I do think E6 would be best to describe LotR, there is a decent argument that they are better than that. Making the characters use an actual good class goes a long way towards explaining how the characters can do awesome things but still only be 6th level (with lots of feats by the end, in all likelihood).

It's clear to me that by the end of the series Aragon has at least a few white raven abilities. Gimli is a lot more mobile then a standard fighter would be, so I'd make him straight warblade.

Gwendol

2012-11-09, 08:22 AM

And Boromir a crusader?

I'd make the Rohirrim a mix of fighters and knights, mixed with some level of (non-spellcasting) bard or skald, especially for Theoden. I mean, they sing when they fight and all that. He could easily be a warchanter or warrior skald.

One thing though, the hobbits are described as having some kind of HiPS going on, as a racial ability. At least in the books this is described as something that goes far beyond a slight bonus to the hide check.

toapat

2012-11-09, 08:28 AM

In the movies, he uses telekinesis and has that lightning sword effect, yes, but that doesn't mean that he casts them as spells. The telekinesis seemed bound to the staffs, and the lighting sword thing could also just be a fancy-looking Smite Evil (or more likely, some paladin spell).

Somebody just mentioned that he wore an Elven Ring of Fire, so he doesn't need to be a wizard to use fire stuff.

I think the stats I used are still accurate (post 116, for newcomers).

As ive said, about the only class that there is solid evidence any character is or is not, is that Gandalf has no levels in Wizard or sorcerer, but he could have many other options.

awa

2012-11-09, 09:32 AM

because tob classes are unnecessary to represent them.

virtually nothing the fellowship does cant by the more generic warrior classes.

because their low op and don't need to compete with caster that's okay

Jeraa

2012-11-09, 10:02 AM

Keep in mind, the fellowship of the ring are, by the standards of their world, awesome epic heroes. Gimli is like, an epic dwarf, and legolas is an epic elf. Their respective races sent the /best/ of their people.

The various races did not send anyone to join the Fellowship. They had no idea the Ring had even been found, until the Council of Elrond. They all went there for other reasons, learned of the Ring, and joined then.

Boromir and Faramir had a dream, telling them to go to Imladris (Rivendell) - Boromir went to Rivendell for guidence (despite only having the dream once, Faramir had it multiple times).

Glóin spoke of evil messengers who had come to the Lonely Mountain promising the return of one or more of the Seven rings if they would reveal the location of Bilbo Baggins. The dwarves also wanted information on Balin, who had been missing for like 30 years by that time. Gimli just tagged along with his father.

Legolas conveyed the bad news that Gollum had escaped captivity and disappeared. Aragorn had gone to great lengths to capture the debased creature, who had possessed the Ring for centuries under the Misty Mountains. The elves thought that Elrond, and hence Aragorn and Gandalf, should be told that Gollum had escaped from them.

The Council ended with them agreeing the Ring must be destroyed, and that Frodo should do it. The rest of the Fellowship was decided sometime later. The only reason Boromir, Legolas, and Gimli were chosen was probably because they were already there (and Gloin was probably too old).

LeshLush

2012-11-09, 10:07 AM

The battle of Minas Tirith is ended with Aragorns immortal, invulnerable ghost army.
Only in the movies. In the books, the oathbreakers help Aragorn defeat the Corsairs of Umbar and then he lets them go. They don't go with Aragorn to Pelennor Fields.

DrGonzo

2012-11-09, 10:22 AM

To answer the OP: not very well translated

Gandalf is pure plot device, or at the very least a DMPC. See DM of the rings for details. Oh, and it's a fun read too.

As goes for Gandalf, Sauron too is just a plot device. If he really was a high level character, why isn't he throwing spells and what not around all day long?

The rest of the fellowship is a bit easier, they're all low (3-4) level fighters, rogues, rangers and so on.

The most important thing to consider is that the magic in Middle Earth isn't vancian. It works in a completely different way. It isn't as easy as "I pluck some magic from the weave, and blammo, fireball". Gandalf is one of the most powerfull beings around, and while he's certainly very sturdy (falling that far must sting), the magic we see him perform doesn't strike me as the delayed blast fireball, timestop, contingency, power word kill kind of magic.

hymer

2012-11-09, 10:59 AM

Been having some connection problems, but I'm back. So pardon the tardyness in posting this:

Morgoth or Sauron originally created orcs by torturing and doing horrible things to elves so after a few generations they were changed.

Sauron certainly didn't. Aside from that, the theory that Orcs are corrupted Elves is but one of many that Tolkien didn't choose. We don't know where Orcs came from or how.

Uruk-Hai are specifically a 'less degenerate' form of orc created by crossbreeding - the idea being that over time orcs have become crapper than they used to be, so back in the day they weren't as easily defeated, and uruk-hai are throwbacks.

That sounds very interesting, where did you find that?

Uruk-Hai also breed much, much faster than regular orcs.

Now that rings positively false in my ears. Where did you get that?

if Sauron was Epic, then under DnD rules the entire LotR tale was hand-waving and homebrew, as epic wizards can detect the presence of people, swarm the countryside with much better minions than orcs.. his spell list would essentially have to be incredibly incredibly small to not be able to find the party except via incredible DM handwaving.

Sauron could be Cleric6/Wizard6/Artificer8/Marshal3/Paladin(Ty)4. Not exactly optimized, but neither is choosing an eyestalk to cause wounds - because you didn't choose that, it's the cards life dealt you.

Razanir

2012-11-09, 02:49 PM

awa

2012-11-09, 02:51 PM

low con high dex, int, and cha various magical abbilities. drow are a really bad fit is far as i can tell none of their abbilities better depict a tolkine orc then a dnd orc.

orcs fit much better as orc then drow as orcs

Jeraa

2012-11-09, 03:08 PM

Just a thought– What if we refluffed drow for the orcs? Orcs were originally elves that were tortured so much by Morgoth that they became evil. What's stopping us from declaring them drow, but with an extra strength boost?

As has been said (I believe), corrupted elves are one possible origin of orcs. One Tolkien himself grew to dislike. The Silmarillion does say that orcs were transformed elves, as does the live-action movie.

But there are also hints and other possibilities in Tolkiens other works and letters, that orcs weren't corrupted elves, but had other origins. Its not clear what the true origins of orcs actually are.

ravagerofworlds

2012-11-09, 03:15 PM

Gandalf, as per the appendix, is a Maiar- or minor angel. While all the Istari are powerful, as the balrogs (corrupted fire spirits), the Istari were sent to kindle the Free Peoples against Sauron.

As for people claiming that Gandalf is using Narya... um, no. He was entrusted with one of the Elven Rings of Power, yes, but the Elves did not use their Rings of Power so long as Sauron held the One Ring. Galadriel bears a ring of power, but she certainly does not use it in the books. All the rings of power are dangerous.

As others have specified, Gandalf uses lightning, fire, exploding pine cones, etc.

The point I was originally pointing out... is that D&D (1st edition) draws directly from LotR for its inspiration. The game system expanded to include other fantasy novels, and grew classes, changed classes, etc. It's like asking someone to translate Old English concepts using modern words. Guess what? The word "wife" is from Viking. In Old English, there was no honorific for a married woman. A woman was chattel, property.

If you want to be true to the source material... you gotta pair down the 3.0/3.5/PF classes to the bare minimum to capture the characters in LotR. And please... read the damn books, don't just go by the movies. Glorfindel, for instance, is a badass who never made Peter Jackson's cut.... he's the only character to fight a balrog, die, and be resurrected by Manwe (chief of the Tolkien gods under Eru, the Creator) for his valor. And he's a Bard... who slays balrogs.

Clistenes

2012-11-09, 03:26 PM

Gandalf, as per the appendix, is a Maiar- or minor angel. While all the Istari are powerful, as the balrogs (corrupted fire spirits), the Istari were sent to kindle the Free Peoples against Sauron.

As for people claiming that Gandalf is using Narya... um, no. He was entrusted with one of the Elven Rings of Power, yes, but the Elves did not use their Rings of Power so long as Sauron held the One Ring. Galadriel bears a ring of power, but she certainly does not use it in the books. All the rings of power are dangerous.

As others have specified, Gandalf uses lightning, fire, exploding pine cones, etc.

The elves (and Gandalf) didn't use the Three Rings while Sauron kept his own One Ring, but once it was taken form him, they started to use them again: Galadriel used his Ring of Air to protect Lorien and keep it partially outside of time (everything alive perceives time as an elf does while inside Lorien, and at least plants and inanimate object ages at a slower rate); Elrond uses his Ring of Water to control the river next to Rivendel (for example, he disabled the Nazguls that way) and Gandalf uses his Fire Ring for his tricks (but he doesn't use its full power, since he doesn't want Sauron to know that he has it).

When the One Ring is destroyed the Three Rings lose their power and the elven leaders can't protect Rivendel and Lorien anymore, so they leave Middle Earth.

hymer

2012-11-09, 04:48 PM

I agree with Clistenes. One instance, I think, of Gandalf using Narya, is when he walks around the walls of Minas Tirith with Dol Amroth. Fire helps lift spirits, and this is something Gandalf apparently does with his mere presence. Círdan gave it to Gandalf, in the hope that it would strengthen him against weariness.

It is also said that the elves took off their rings when Celebrimbor became aware of Sauron and his plot. And Galadriel, at least, wears Nenya, though hidden so only Frodo sees it. An indication that she uses it.

It's not just pure elemental force that the elven rings possess. Fire is inspirational, as mentioned above. Water is often equated with life, and Elrond is a master healer. Air is often equated with sight and seeing, and Galadriel has a mirror that gives seeing power.
This paragraph is my interpretation, not textual fact, but I think it's pertinent.

ravagerofworlds

2012-11-09, 05:13 PM

Except that all the Istari were chosen for their wisdom and persuasion abilities; Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Palando, and Alatar.

I've read the books multiple times. Nowhere in the text does the author attribute Gandalf's powers to Narya. Sure, it probably gave a passive buff... but Gandalf would still be Gandalf without the ring. Gandalf's magic is not due to the ring, as many have asserted in this thread... it is because Gandalf is a maiar clothed like a man, from the blessed lands of Aman, a servant of Eru Illuvatar (the secret fire, or the flame of life). There are many items based upon passive and active bonuses in 3.5... Gandalf used his artifacts passively in the text. The only time Gandalf is active, is in his fight with the Balrog, of which there are no witnesses.

{Scrubbed} So people trying to lowball Gandalf is ludicrous. It is not enough to stat a character based on what they do... but rather what they are.

On to Nenya; the protection around Lothlorien is a direct mirror of the protection afforded to Thingol's realm in Doriath (Beleriand, First Age, Book of Lost Tales/Silmarillion). This is a story device; Galadriel is no Maiar like Melian, so instead Tolkien uses Nenya to achieve the same effect.

Please pay attention to the actions of "The Wise"- Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, etc. They do not take direct action- they are facilitators to the story. They do not battle Sauron themselves- they act to guide the race of Men and help the Hobbits. They all have accumulated great power; but it is apparent that the only one of these three ringbearers tempted to take the One Ring... is Galadriel... because the Ring of Power are dangerous.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-11-09, 05:17 PM

Except that all the Istari were chosen for their wisdom and persuasion abilities; Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Palando, and Alatar.

I've read the books multiple times. Nowhere in the text does the author attribute Gandalf's powers to Narya. Sure, it probably gave a passive buff... but Gandalf would still be Gandalf without the ring. Gandalf's magic is not due to the ring, as many have asserted in this thread... it is because Gandalf is a maiar clothed like a man, from the blessed lands of Aman, a servant of Eru Illuvatar (the secret fire, or the flame of life). There are many items based upon passive and active bonuses in 3.5... Gandalf used his artifacts passively in the text. The only time Gandalf is active, is in his fight with the Balrog, of which there are no witnesses.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote} So people trying to lowball Gandalf is ludicrous. It is not enough to stat a character based on what they do... but rather what they are.

On to Nenya; the protection around Lothlorien is a direct mirror of the protection afforded to Thingol's realm in Doriath (Beleriand, First Age, Book of Lost Tales/Silmarillion). This is a story device; Galadriel is no Maiar like Melian, so instead Tolkien uses Nenya to achieve the same effect.

Please pay attention to the actions of "The Wise"- Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, etc. They do not take direct action- they are facilitators to the story. They do not battle Sauron themselves- they act to guide the race of Men and help the Hobbits. They all have accumulated great power; but it is apparent that the only one of these three ringbearers tempted to take the One Ring... is Galadriel... because the Ring of Power are dangerous.

{Scrubbed}

Frozen_Feet

2012-11-09, 05:19 PM

If this was about 1st Ed AD&D, you could easily stat every character, with the protagonists being about 4th to 8th level by end.

Aragorn is a Human Ranger. Boromir is a Human Fighter. Gimli is a Dwarf Fighter. Legolas is Elf Fighter. Gandalf is a (Fighter/Thief) Bard, and higher-level than the others. The Hobbits are Halfling Thieves of various levels.

... but since this is 3.5, we have to get complicated. :smalltongue:

Aragorn is Human Ranger (archery) 3 / Paladin 3 / Fighter 2 / Human Paragon 3. Paragon is to model his Numenorean heritage. He's pretty high-level, but not terribly high-tier, so he doesn't stand out too much. Anduril might be a magic sword, but could be just Masterwork with a history.
Boromir is Human Aristrocrat 1 / Fighter 6 (You can substitute Warblade if you'd like).
Gimli is Dward Aristocrat 1 / Fighter 7 / Deepwarden 3.
Legolas is Elf Aristocrat 1 / Ranger (Archery) 3 / Elf Paragon 3 / Fighter 2. Probably not core elf, but some of the more powerful variants. (Core elf doesn't really mimic Tolkienian elves well.)
Gandalf is Outsider (Native) Cloistered Cleric 10 / Prestige Paladin 3 with Knowledge, Fire and Good domains. He's not too much higher level than the other big names in the Fellowship, but he stands out so much because 10 of his levels are in a Tier 1 class, when other are Tier 4 or 5. Shadowfax is his Sacred Mount (obviously). Glamdring is probably a Holy Avenger.
Frodo is Halfling Aristocrat 1 / Rogue 2 / Halfling Paragon 3. Owns Mithral Chainshirt and Orcbane Magic Dagger +1.
Sam, Merry and Pippin all start at Commoner 1. Sam gets levels in Rogue and Paladin, and ends up as Commoner 1 / Rogue 2 / Paladin 2 by the end. Merry and Pippin both get a few levels of Fighter (maybe Knight for the who, you know, became a Knight of Gondor). Maybe Halfling Paragon too. They end up at 5th level or so as well. The lot own Magic Dagger +1s.

It's good to note that many of the Big Names in LotR could easily be near or even level or two past ECL 10, but it doesn't show that much since they're mostly low-tier classes.

ravagerofworlds

2012-11-09, 05:30 PM

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

My point is still the same; stat-ing characters based on what they do in a story is ludicrous, rather we should stat them as who they are. Gandalf held back his true power... it wasn't part of his mission from the Valar.

Daverin

2012-11-09, 06:06 PM

{Scrubbed}

Also, guess I'll chime in that I don't much care for plotting out the LotR characters in 3.5. At the least, much of it really does seem to be due to DM railroading and otherwise plot devices.

hymer

2012-11-09, 06:15 PM

I've read the books multiple times.

So have I, but I'm always interested in learning more.

Nowhere in the text does the author attribute Gandalf's powers to Narya.

Gandalf used his artifacts passively in the text.

The text is intentionally ambiguous. Since we don't know Narya's exact powers or Gandalf's exact powers, we will have to guess at what came from where.
I agree that Gandalf doesn't rely entirely on his ring, if only because Radagast and the balrog are said or shown to have clearly supernatural powers. It would be strange indeed if Gandalf had none.

The only time Gandalf is active, is in his fight with the Balrog

There's also his fight on Weathertop against the Nazgûl; his assisting Elrond in raising the Bruinen; the fight against the supernatural wolves after the attempt on the Redhorn Gate; his flexing when reunited with Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas; his intervention against the Nazgûl when Faramir returns; and a few instances in the Hobbit. I may have missed some, of course, and some could be attributed to power or wisdom as you like - say bringing Théoden out of his funk.

On to Nenya; the protection around Lothlorien is a direct mirror of the protection afforded to Thingol's realm in Doriath (Beleriand, First Age, Book of Lost Tales/Silmarillion). This is a story device; Galadriel is no Maiar like Melian, so instead Tolkien uses Nenya to achieve the same effect.

Indeed she is not, but Orcs invade Lórien as they pursue the party from their exit from Moria. When Treebeard says that the Orcs could not enter Lórien, he says it is due to 'the great ones who are here'. If he's right, repulsing the Orcs from Lórien wasn't all Galadriel's doing.
Galadriel's protection isn't as strong as Melian's Girdle. It probably revolves more around defeating the ravages of time than keeping out the forces of Melkor.

Please pay attention to the actions of "The Wise"- Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, etc. They do not take direct action- they are facilitators to the story. They do not battle Sauron themselves- they act to guide the race of Men and help the Hobbits.

It seems you're confusing the Wise with the Istari here. Elrond and Galadriel do their share of fighting directly against Sauron. Elrond was Gil-Galad's standard bearer in the War of the Last Alliance, and Galadriel fought in the War of the Ring, as mentioned above. She's said to have destroyed Dol Guldur (though I doubt she did it all by her lonesome).

but it is apparent that the only one of these three ringbearers tempted to take the One Ring... is Galadriel... because the Ring of Power are dangerous.

Gandalf tells how he is tempted too, as it will grant him power to do good. Elrond doesn't go into detail ('I fear to take the Ring to hide it. I will not take the Ring to wield it', quoted by memory), but considering the One Ring's effect on Gandalf, Galadriel and even Sam, it seems likely he was tempted too - but like them resisted the temptation.

Rejakor

2012-11-09, 07:52 PM

Sauron certainly didn't. Aside from that, the theory that Orcs are corrupted Elves is but one of many that Tolkien didn't choose. We don't know where Orcs came from or how.

It was, I believe, the longest revision, if not the most recent one - it's also the one that was most widely accepted (as it was printed in the silmarillion.

That said, I don't actually really care, as Tolkien appears to have waffled on the subject and produced many competing theories so it's a tangled mess regardless.

It goes something like this, from memory;

Morgoth made them out of slime

Morgoth made them out of elves

Morgoth made them out of DIFFERENT elves

Morgoth made them out of humans (probably) (like, literally, this was from the perspective of an in-universe narration and it literally said 'most likely conclusion')

Morgoth made them out of humans AND elves (possibly)

And then he died.

So we don't really know what his actual idea was. And it seems likely he didn't have much of an actual idea in the first place, what with all the changing.

The most logical thing is that it twas the elves. Since humans come later than the great war between the duders and the other duders, and are specifically bit players until the events of gondor et al.

That sounds very interesting, where did you find that?

ugh don't make me go looking through all of tolkien's books don't do it

It was comments made by characters about uruk-hai in LOTR - crossreferenced with other comments made about orcs and goblins in general - crossreferenced with descriptions of orcs and battles mostly from the silmarillion. Orcs are epic in the silmarillion, and the word 'degenerate' mostly only starts showing up in LOTR/hobbit to describe orcs and goblins. Uruk-Hai are specifically better than the rest of the orcs and goblins (in a number of ways) and are not referred to as 'degenerate' (or similar terms) as much.

It's not directly stated, but the inference is that orcs used to be cool, now they're less cool, and uruk hai are the new cool.

Now that rings positively false in my ears. Where did you get that?

Descriptions of the numbers at helm's deep and people who are very familiar with orcs in general going 'no, how did so many orcs get blah etc!' and descriptions of the pits at orthanc.

Sauron could be Cleric6/Wizard6/Artificer8/Marshal3/Paladin(Ty)4. Not exactly optimized, but neither is choosing an eyestalk to cause wounds - because you didn't choose that, it's the cards life dealt you.

The problem is, if he had all those powers then he would have probably used them more.

Sauron actually comes across as a Paladin of Tyranny/Wizard, with no more than 7 levels in wizard. Most of what he does is low level arcane magic and WBLomancy, and before he became a disembodied corpse he was apparently a Fightin' Man lieutenant guy with an aura of fear.

ravagerofworlds

2012-11-09, 08:35 PM

{Scrubbed}
On to the Wise... actions are attributed to Elrond, Galadriel, etc., but we as readers never see them. They are facilitators of action in Tolkien's LotR. You have to go to Silmarillion or Book of Lost Tales to see these stars in action. Even in the Hobbit, the sundering of Dol Guldur is off page. It's a reason for Gandalf to leave the dwarves and Bilbo to the mercy of Mirkwood.

Oh... and Melkor/Morgoth never died. He's imprisoned in Aman with no parole. Sauron, the able Lieutenant of Morgoth (a fallen Valar), is a fallen Maiar, perhaps the strongest of the Maiar. There are no classes for this villain; he is a spirit of evil. Tolkien's letters describe the pair as "the absolute Satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron."

Definitely outsiders, on a par with the Faerun Gods. The difference is, Sauron's spirit endured even though his body did not (from his fight with Gil Galad in the appendix).

TuggyNE

2012-11-09, 08:50 PM

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
{Scrubbed} If you want to know more, I strongly recommend opening a new thread (or reading the existing ones) in Board/Site Issues (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25).

Zonugal

2012-11-09, 09:36 PM

So here is my first adaptation of a LOTR character. It should be noted I took inspiration from the character and thought about how they may operate in a D&D type world (under similiar restraints to those like the world in LOTR).

Boromir: Male Middle-Aged Human Knight 4/Warblade 2; CR 6; medium humanoid (human); HD 6d12+12; hp 60; Init +1; Spd 30 ft.; AC 18 (10 +1 dex +5 armor +2 shield), touch 11, flat-footed 17; Base Atk +6; Grp +8; Atk +9/+4 melee (1d8+2/19-20x2; slashing; longsword); SQ Knight’s Challenge (4/day), Fighting Challenge (+1; 7 rounds), Knight’s Code, Shield Block +1, Bulwark of Defense, Armor Mastery (Medium), Test of Mettle (DC 14; 7 rounds), Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves), Weapon Aptitude & Uncanny Dodge; AL LG; SV Fort +7, Ref +2, Will +0; Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 15.
Skills, Skill Tricks and Feats: Diplomacy +11 (8 ranks +2 cha +2 synergy -1 abrasive), Intimidate +12 (9 ranks +2 cha +1 abrasive), Jump +10 (8 ranks +2 str), Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) +7 (6 ranks + 1 int), Ride +8 (7 ranks +1 dex) and Speak (Common & Elven); Never Outnumbered; Cleave, Combat Brute, Die Hard, Endurance, Great Cleave, Formation Expert, Imperious Command, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Mounted Combat and Power Attack.
Flaws & Traits: Weak Will; Abrasive & Passionate
Maneuvers (IL 4; 3 Readied): Battle Leader’s Charge, Leading the Attack, Punishing Stance, Steel Wind & Tactical Strike.
Equipment: Masterwork Breastplate [+5 AC, +3 Max Dex, -3 ACP, 30 lb.], Masterwork Heavy Steel Shield [+2 AC, -1 ACP, 15 lb.] and Masterwork Longsword [4 lb.].

Roland St. Jude

2012-11-09, 09:42 PM

Sheriff: Please keep in mind that: 1) real world religion is an inappropriate topic on this forum even when it intersects a gaming or other acceptable topic and 2) vigilante modding is not permitted here.

hymer

2012-11-10, 03:41 AM

@ Rejakor: Clistenes did a nice, quick writeup on Tolkien's different theories over here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259094&page=3
As for which to choose, well... Tolkien never picked one. I'm going to do the same, and say that the origins of Orcs are a mystery we can't finally penetrate.

I don't recall any but the most cursory description of the pits of Isengard, pretty much just saying they exist. Which makes sense, since Saruman kept them a secret, and soon after he revealed himself the Ents filled them with water.
With no references of yours, I'll rely on my own memory on the subject of Uruk-hai and how fast they breed. As for your theory on fading Orcs in general, I'd say it sounds very intriguing, as the gradual loss of power is quite a theme. I just wish I knew some passages to base this on.

About Sauron, we don't see much of him at all. We know he used to have a shapeshifter-thing going on, but that he's been locked into his current, ugly form after the Downfall of Númenor. We know he is great in craft. He is very strong in sheer will. He is very terrible. And of course, he goes head to head with Gil-Galad and Elendil, and kills them as they kill him.
Wizards and clerics of level 6 and below generally don't exert much power out of their own sight. And we never see Sauron up close - we have few concrete ideas what sort of things he gets up to, when he isn't using the palantír, plotting or giving orders.
But if we compare him to Gandalf, Saruman and the balrog, it seems fair to assume Sauron wields some sort of local power that no mortal could hope to match, as it comes from a different time and place. We just don't see any of it, because we don't see any of Sauron.

@ ravage:
The examples I gave of the actions of Elrond and Galadriel are mentioned in the Lord of the Rings. The breaking of Dol Guldur is what Galadriel gets up to after repulsing three assaults on Lórien. Elrond's role is mentioned by him at his council. He is accounted by Gandalf as one of Sauron's chief foes. His sons are with Aragorn's army at the Black Gate.
Tolkien generally tries to tell the story from the point of view of the Hobbits. It's said to be the account of their journeys, as put down by Frodo and Bilbo. The main exceptions are the doings of Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas, and to a lesser degree Gandalf. These the Hobbits had plenty of time to talk to after the events, and so could report these too. But other things that happened 'off the screen' shouldn't just be discounted. The appendices are full of stories and elements Tolkien wanted us to have available, if we should want to know more. And they don't contradict his story. If they contradict your interpretation, I think it's quite fair to say that it's the author contradicting your interpretation.

About Melkor, no, he is not dead - he is after all not mortal. But he is not captive in the Blessed Realm either, though. He was, for three ages, after his early wickedness. But he repented, and Manwë let him out. But he fell back into darkness and fled to Middle-earth, soon to be pursued by Elves. And he was recaptured by the Valar when they came to stop him. Melkor is now said to reside in the void beyond the world, and Arda is free of him.

@ Zonugal: Very interesting! Is he E6? I didn't do the actual calculations, but he seems to have quite a few feats. I love how he is skilled in Diplomacy, but you get his flaw into the story there. :)
It's an important point that you decide to make him particularly vulnerable to Will saves. Hard choice, there. He actually went back to help Gandalf against the balrog, despite its fear aura.

Seharvepernfan

2012-11-10, 04:00 AM

I just thought of this: Aragorn would probably be a Ruathar, if he was high enough level.

Cybris75

2012-11-10, 06:08 AM

@hymer: Arda may be free of Morgoth, but it is definitely not free of his influence - see e.g. "Morgoth's ring", in which is speculated that Morgoth infused part of his power and corruption into the very world itself, like Sauron did with the one ring later. Maybe the orcs are just one of the known races, but corrupted and twisted by Morgoth's spirit so that they are unrecognizable.

As to the D&D classification of Gandalf, I don't think it was mentioned that he used either "Hold portal" or "Telekinesis" against a door to prevent the Balrog from pursuing the party in Moria, but Durin's Bane used "Dispel Magic" or something to break Gandalf's hold on the door. Gandalf was quite exhausted after that.

hymer

2012-11-10, 06:28 AM

No disagreement from me, Cybris. And well done on remembering that particular encounter. Enough power was involved in that contest to cause the chamber to cave in, as I recall.
It also shows something about Gandalf's magic, it is very much a part of him. When it comes under a strain, he is affected too ('The counterspell was terrible' quoted by memory). But I guess we best gloss over that part in 3.5 terms, unless someone recalls a sort of magic system that has some semblance of this.

Zonugal

2012-11-10, 03:42 PM

@ Zonugal: Very interesting! Is he E6? I didn't do the actual calculations, but he seems to have quite a few feats. I love how he is skilled in Diplomacy, but you get his flaw into the story there. :)
It's an important point that you decide to make him particularly vulnerable to Will saves. Hard choice, there. He actually went back to help Gandalf against the balrog, despite its fear aura.

It is built for the E6 variant (I think it works the best for a LOTR adaptation).

The will save issue is a tough one because I don't want to say that Boromir was particularly weak willed but that he was just really passionate & idealistic (traits that the ring abuses & transmutes) which places him in a really bad spot for handling the ring. But at the same time Boromir is kind of known for failing in such a temptation, so it's a toss up. With the character above he ends up somewhat neutral regarding his will power. He isn't super weak but isn't great in it either.

My real intention with such a build was to construct a character who would be really good on a battlefield but for the challenges facing the fellowship he ultimately doesn't have the options to survive. He is out of his element and pays the price for it.