Mounted Sneak Attack?????

[ojayaba]

okay, so I stumbled upon this very not nice PrC Crinti Shadow Marauder that grants you dimension door AND a POUNCE after ANY completion of a transportation descriptor ANYTHING! only set back is that the built in dimension door requires your mount and limited range per day, but we all know at least a few tricks to get a transportation effect...

so what im trying to figure out here is can you use a "pounce" type action from the back of a mount AND sneak attack the entire time as well.

flavor wise i was thinking have a stealthy mount with the pounce ability and then stab/smash from the mounts back with the full attack granted you from the class...

IDK, trying to find a way for this to be cool and viable. thoughts are rogue 5/ crinti shadow marauder 5/ shadow dancer 10 for a fun 20 level build that gets flanking buddies and more shadow themed jumping around with dimension door effect and other goodies...

Little help please!

[Uncle Pine]

You can backstab someone with a ballista (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRAmqWy_pZs), why shouldn't you be able to do so while mounted (or with a mount as well)? :smallbiggrin:

Seriously talking, there isn't any clause in the SA's description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack) about mounted and/or charging sneak attacks. This means that you can charge a foe while mounted and do sneak attacks as soon as you deny his Dex bonus to AC or flank him.

[ojayaba]

I didn't think there was either but I'm not as rules savvy as some around here so wanted to see what others thought.

[Darrin]

okay, so I stumbled upon this very not nice PrC Crinti Shadow Marauder that grants you dimension door AND a POUNCE after ANY completion of a transportation descriptor ANYTHING! only set back is that the built in dimension door requires your mount and limited range per day, but we all know at least a few tricks to get a transportation effect...


Using Shadow Pounce doesn't require the use of your mount. It works whenever you use a [teleportation] effect. While they do get Shadow Walk (Sp) as a SLA 1/day, this isn't the only way to trigger Shadow Pounce. Notably, the Shadow Jaunt/Shadow Step/Shadow Blink maneuvers from Tome of Battle can be used to create a "Shadow-Pouncer". Use all three, and you can get three full attacks into the same round. Add some Glyph Seals (1000 GP, Magic Item Compendium) keyed your pockets with the dimension hop spell, and you can keep doing it as a free action until you run out of Glyph Seals.

You can do something similar without Shadow Pounce by teleporting 10' above your opponent's head to activate the Battle Jump feat (from Unapproachable East) and get a charge attack. Add Pounce (Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian to turn that into a full attack. Other ways to teleport:

dimension hop power (Complete Psionic, swift action)
blink shirt soulmeld (Magic of Incarnum, standard or move action)
abrupt jaunt ACF (PHBII)
anklets of translocation (1400 GP, MIC, swift action)
bolt shirt (5000 GP, MIC, move action)

The only other PrC that offers Shadow Pounce is Telfammer Shadowlord 4 (from Unapproachable East), but the entry requirements are more obtuse. Crinti Shadow Marauder actually is easier to get into and requires less feats.



so what im trying to figure out here is can you use a "pounce" type action from the back of a mount AND sneak attack the entire time as well.


Hmmm... small-sized rider + blink dog mount + ring of blinking + Pierce Magical Concealment lets you and your mount attack as if you were invisible.

[ojayaba]

Using Shadow Pounce doesn't require the use of your mount. It works whenever you use a [teleportation] effect. While they do get Shadow Walk (Sp) as a SLA 1/day, this isn't the only way to trigger Shadow Pounce. Notably, the Shadow Jaunt/Shadow Step/Shadow Blink maneuvers from Tome of Battle can be used to create a "Shadow-Pouncer". Use all three, and you can get three full attacks into the same round. Add some Glyph Seals (1000 GP, Magic Item Compendium) keyed your pockets with the dimension hop spell, and you can keep doing it as a free action until you run out of Glyph Seals.

You can do something similar without Shadow Pounce by teleporting 10' above your opponent's head to activate the Battle Jump feat (from Unapproachable East) and get a charge attack. Add Pounce (Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian to turn that into a full attack. Other ways to teleport:

dimension hop power (Complete Psionic, swift action)
blink shirt soulmeld (Magic of Incarnum, standard or move action)
abrupt jaunt ACF (PHBII)
anklets of translocation (1400 GP, MIC, swift action)
bolt shirt (5000 GP, MIC, move action)

The only other PrC that offers Shadow Pounce is Telfammer Shadowlord 4 (from Unapproachable East), but the entry requirements are more obtuse. Crinti Shadow Marauder actually is easier to get into and requires less feats.



Hmmm... small-sized rider + blink dog mount + ring of blinking + Pierce Magical Concealment lets you and your mount attack as if you were invisible.



see, heres the issue for me, ToB is *shocked face* banned. so are psionics. personal dislike for halflings/small creatures as well. I know its getting picky but sadly thats how it is :(

[Darrin]

see, heres the issue for me, ToB is *shocked face* banned. so are psionics. personal dislike for halflings/small creatures as well. I know its getting picky but sadly thats how it is :(

Like the mount, Halfling isn't really necessary. Small size was just because the blink dog is medium. Presumably, if you could enlarge the blink dog, you could be medium-sized and do the synchronized ring of blinking thing.

ToB isn't entirely necessary, either. You could do:

Race: Drow or Half-Drow
Totemist 5/Crinti Shadow Marauder 5

That gets you a standard-action teleport and a move-action teleport. You can add a swift-action teleport via items (e.g., Anklet of Translocation).

[ojayaba]

ok, sorry if I'm being stupid, but how does totemist 5 work? not to mention it skips out on any form of sneak attack...

[Answerer]

see, heres the issue for me, ToB is *shocked face* banned. so are psionics. personal dislike for halflings/small creatures as well. I know its getting picky but sadly thats how it is :(
Then get a real DM, not a power-tripping megalomaniac. That's not a game, that's catering to one jerk's control issues.

[Snowbluff]

Guys... Guys... I like shadow pounce too. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258689)

[ojayaba]

Then get a real DM, not a power-tripping megalomaniac. That's not a game, that's catering to one jerk's control issues.

MY personal dislike for halflings/small creatures, not the DM's. I don't mind the lack of ToB/psionics because i don't care for them much.

[Darrin]

ok, sorry if I'm being stupid, but how does totemist 5 work? not to mention it skips out on any form of sneak attack...

Sorry... actually, Totemist 2 is all you need. With the Blink Shirt soulmeld linked to your Totem chakra, you can dimension door at will either as a standard action or a move action. Not quite sure if you can do both in the same round... (there's a "no further actions" clause in there somewhere).

Totemist 2/Rogue 3/Crinti Shadow Marauder 5/Umbral Disciple 10 would work better. This gives you 5d6 sneak attack, at-will dimension door, and always-on hide-in-plain-sight.

Magic of Incarnum can be confusing to explain, though... sounds like it might be a tough sell to either you or your DM.

[Malroth]

Warlock 6 has at will teleportation and can grab hide in plain sight at lv 1 with drow of the underdark feats

[ojayaba]

MoI is a book that I bought years ago but never fully read...
although i have no idea what umbral disciple is...

warlock was looked at and ruled out within my debate team IRL as it would take to long to get to.

[Snowbluff]

Keep in mind that both Totemist and Warlocks option use Dimension Door. Your turn will end after you use the abilities.

[Gavinfoxx]

You can sneak attack...

...with a greatsword
or
...while mounted
or
...with a lance
or
...with a siege weapon
or
...in heavy armor
or
...while charging
or
...while pounce-charging

or TONS of things. Sneak Attack is not a guy in light armor attacking with a dagger from hiding, you know?

[ojayaba]

Keep in mind that both Totemist and Warlocks option use Dimension Door. Your turn will end after you use the abilities.


Shadow Pounce (Ex): At 5th level, a Crinti shadow marauder
learns how to attack swiftly from the shadows. Any time she
uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor
(for example, her shadow ride ability), she can execute a full
attack upon completion of the teleportation. The marauder
must have line of sight to her intended target from her original
location. Further, the spot to which she teleports must be a
place from which she can make a melee attack against the
intended target with whatever weapon she had in hand at the
beginning of her action.
the dimension door is the trigger to a full attack

blink shirt you say? *goes to read up with the gaming group*

[Snowbluff]

the dimension door is the trigger to a full attack

blink shirt you say? *goes to read up with the gaming group*

Yes, but you can't use Dimension Door and then use another teleport afterwards, diminishing the usefulness of the ability. Move action helps though. You can use it after a chain of my MM abused Twin Repeat Dimension Hops.

[ojayaba]

but you don't need the move after if you dim door within reach of them for the full attack... you dim door to within reach, sneak attack /sudden strike the crap out of them using your full attack gained from the ability and do it all over again next round...

[Snowbluff]

but you don't need the move after if you dim door within reach of them for the full attack... you dim door to within reach, sneak attack /sudden strike the crap out of them using your full attack gained from the ability and do it all over again next round...

You would still need a Standard action teleport that is not Dimension Door. Just a heads up.

[ojayaba]

why would you in the ability lets you take a full attack after any teleportation effect? as per the ability if I'm getting this right you can teleport in any way to within reach of something/one and full attack them.

Shadow Pounce (Ex): ... Any time she
uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor
(for example, her shadow ride ability), she can execute a full
attack upon completion of the teleportation. The marauder
must have line of sight to her intended target from her original
location. Further, the spot to which she teleports must be a
place from which she can make a melee attack against the
intended target with whatever weapon she had in hand at the
beginning of her action.


Shadow Ride (Su):A Crinti shadow ma-rauder can travel on her mount between shadows
as if by means of a dimension door spell. Such
supernatural transport must begin and end in an
area with at least some shadow. The marauder can
ride up to a total of 50 feet per Crinti shadow marauder
level per day in this way. The amount can be split up
among many rides, but rides of a distance shorter than
25 feet count as 25 feet

is the shadow ride ability that is dim door under diff name

[Answerer]

Snowbluff is talking about multiple teleports and therefore multiple full-attacks.

[ojayaba]

Why would I do that? I'm not trying to break the ability here, just trying to make something fun and effective.

[Sith_Happens]

Why would I do that? I'm not trying to break the ability here, just trying to make something fun and effective.

Then don't worry about the multiple teleports bit.

[Fitz10019]

rider + blink dog mount + ring of blinking

What would keep the mount's and rider's blinking in sync? Wouldn't there be a chance of them being out of sync and the rider falling through? heh.

[gorfnab]

What would keep the mount's and rider's blinking in sync? Wouldn't there be a chance of them being out of sync and the rider falling through? heh.
Arms & Equipment Guide - page 81 - 82, paragraph Blink Dog, Riding


If a blink dog's rider wears a ring of blinking, the dog and ring attune to each other through a sympathetic magical effect so that dog and rider blink in unison.

[ojayaba]

Arms & Equipment Guide - page 81 - 82, paragraph Blink Dog, Riding

now that's a funny trick to try...

I think there is an issue here :(
seems that most of my gaming group thinks that the shadow pounce ability is "broken" and have tried to convince the DM to ban it :(

[Dusk Eclipse]

now that's a funny trick to try...

I think there is an issue here :(
seems that most of my gaming group thinks that the shadow pounce ability is "broken" and have tried to convince the DM to ban it :(

You should then bring a Conjurer/Incantatrix to show them what is really broken.

[The Succubus]

You can sneak attack...

...with a greatsword
or
...while mounted
or
...with a lance
or
...with a siege weapon
or
...in heavy armor
or
...while charging
or
...while pounce-charging

or TONS of things. Sneak Attack is not a guy in light armor attacking with a dagger from hiding, you know?

If you manage to get sneak attacked by someone wearing full plating, riding a warhorse and carrying 5ft lance, you really, really need to work on your wisdom score.

[ojayaba]

You should then bring a Conjurer/Incantatrix to show them what is really broken.

im the only one in my group that reads the forums, so i know what "broken" and "powerful" are, but i still refuse to use those tricks to any level of that cheesyness.
I just like to have fun playing silly/fun things that have a few tricks like the odd full attack after a teleport. yes, that is a powerful ability but at the same time its no less powerful then a power attacker smashing face for 70+ a hit on a full attack or single attack.

[Gwendol]

he could just flank...

[Dusk Eclipse]

im the only one in my group that reads the forums, so i know what "broken" and "powerful" are, but i still refuse to use those tricks to any level of that cheesyness.
I just like to have fun playing silly/fun things that have a few tricks like the odd full attack after a teleport. yes, that is a powerful ability but at the same time its no less powerful then a power attacker smashing face for 70+ a hit on a full attack or single attack.

Are you aware that blue text is used to convey sarcasm?

[ojayaba]

he could just flank...

not in my group :(
seems every one works solo except one other guy(who plays sub par characters) and me. the others will build singly powerful(to them) persons with the ODD helpful for the party thing, i like to build things that would well with a party and have RP value, not just "ive got a schticki use all the time"

[Gwendol]

That's sad. The point of building a group is kind of to work together in order to achieve greater results.

[ojayaba]

That's sad. The point of building a group is kind of to work together in order to achieve greater results.

that might be the point of it but not how it usually works :(
this is what i work with as finding a gaming group around here is very hard :(

so with RAW i can shadow ride(dim door with mount) to so legal location, full attack(shadow pounce) with a full attack that will(should) be with sneak attack/sudden strike and still have my mount attack as well?


Shadow Ride (Su):A Crinti shadow ma-rauder can travel on her mount between shadows
as if by means of a dimension door spell. Such
supernatural transport must begin and end in an
area with at least some shadow. The marauder can
ride up to a total of 50 feet per Crinti shadow marauder
level per day in this way. The amount can be split up
among many rides, but rides of a distance shorter than
25 feet count as 25 feet


Shadow Pounce (Ex): At 5th level, a Crinti shadow marauder
learns how to attack swiftly from the shadows. Any time she
uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor
(for example, her shadow ride ability), she can execute a full
attack upon completion of the teleportation. The marauder
must have line of sight to her intended target from her original
location. Further, the spot to which she teleports must be a
place from which she can make a melee attack against the
intended target with whatever weapon she had in hand at the
beginning of her action.

yes?

[Snowbluff]

that might be the point of it but not how it usually works :(
this is what i work with as finding a gaming group around here is very hard :(

so with RAW i can shadow ride(dim door with mount) to so legal location, full attack(shadow pounce) with a full attack that will(should) be with sneak attack/sudden strike and still have my mount attack as well?

yes?

You still need to meet the conditions for SA. Getting Thicket of Blades from the ToB (for you or your mount) will make this a lot easier, if allowed.

[ojayaba]

I'm going to assume that I would meet them or i just would wait until I did meet them before shadow riding in to position. as for ToB I think i posted OP it was banned along with psionics. Small creatures due to personal dislike where off the drawing boards as well.

thank you for the help/ideas/thoughts, if there are more then keep them coming!

[Snowbluff]

If that's the case...

Warlock's Flee the Scene (Dimension Door +Invisibility for the flatfooted) would be nice, but they don't ride as a skill.

You are going to need a way to flank, it's still the most viable option. Screw it. You see a teammate adjacent to something, just teleport for a flank. Someone on your team has to be melee, and you don't need their consent not to suck.

[ojayaba]

my thoughts on a build once held warlock then though against it as i need to many levels to get it.

so i thought up rogue 5/ crinti shadow marauder 5/ shadow dancer 10.
shadow jump is more triggers a day and further distance, HiPS, shadow companions for flanks. as for the ride 8 ranks, jack of all trades was my best thought on that one
ranger was another option but then no SA dice...
SA fighter also crossed my mind but hide and move silently are missing...

[Gavinfoxx]

Buy a griffin. Flank with it.

[Snowbluff]

my thoughts on a build once held warlock then though against it as i need to many levels to get it.

Yeah, lock works better with Telflammar Shadowlord.


so i thought up rogue 5/ crinti shadow marauder 5/ shadow dancer 10.
shadow jump is more triggers a day and further distance, HiPS, shadow companions for flanks. as for the ride 8 ranks, jack of all trades was my best thought on that one

Sounds good, but Jack of all trades? As in the feat? I don't think that does waht you think it does.




ranger was another option but then no SA dice...

Hunter's Eye.


SA fighter also crossed my mind but hide and move silently are missing...

The UA allows you to be a Thug and an SA fight at the same time, even if you can't give up bonus feats twice.:smalltongue:

EDIT: You should find a way to get an At-Will Teleport. Not ever being limited by the number of times you can Shadow Pounce will be a great boon. Blink Shirt is the best bet. Even if it's Dimension Door, get the Move action Chakra Bind will let you do other things with your standard action like use wands or drink potions.

[ojayaba]

thug fighter doesn't do anything for me as it just adds urban tracking a few skills to my list that i don't need and 4+ skill points
hmm, jack of all trades is not what i thought it was... whats the feat that makes all skills class skills for humans and dopplegangers?
i think ranger is going to end up being the path i have to follow :( no SA makes me sad :(

[ojayaba]

EDIT: You should find a way to get an At-Will Teleport. Not ever being limited by the number of times you can Shadow Pounce will be a great boon. Blink Shirt is the best bet. Even if it's Dimension Door, get the Move action Chakra Bind will let you do other things with your standard action like use wands or drink potions.

if i do get an at will teleport then my gaming group will mosdef flip tables at me for at will full attacking anything i want... even though it has sever limits they wont see that.

[Gavinfoxx]

You might want to show them what a tactical melee combatant looks like using only PHB, DMG, and SRD, maybe? So they can get a solid baseline of competency?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415
http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=55074

[ojayaba]

as another option instead of rogue for the first 5 levels, can a scout use dim door to trigger skirmish?
if so, then all the skills except handle animal need to enter are class skills, and handle animal only needs 4 ranks anyway...

[Snowbluff]

as another option instead of rogue for the first 5 levels, can a scout use dim door to trigger skirmish?
if so, then all the skills except handle animal need to enter are class skills, and handle animal only needs 4 ranks anyway...

Teleportation doesn't normally count as movement, IIRC. I would allow it (because physics), but not everyone would.

[ojayaba]

Teleportation doesn't normally count as movement, IIRC. I would allow it (because physics), but not everyone would.

i was curious because i remember seeing somewhere that scouts on a mount doesn't trigger skirmish so wanted to see if teleportation did...

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are some handbooks for ya... you seem to be into stealthy character types...

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872250/The_Scouts_Handbook
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4621
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034

[Bakkan]

i was curious because i remember seeing somewhere that scouts on a mount doesn't trigger skirmish so wanted to see if teleportation did...

Mouned skirmish doesn't work because of errata. Which suggests to me that as written, pre-errata, mounted skirmish did work. Since they didn't errata away teleportation effects, I would tend to rule that a dimension door will grant you your skirmish bonus.