Specialist Wizard's prohibited schools suggestions

[Lost in books]

In our campaign there are no original characters, we have all died at least twice and have had to reroll. I can see the skulls flying over my current character's head (rust monster encounter and drained of 8 points strength and no way of healing or resting since we are trying to run out of these caves as we are being chased I think my death has gone from maybe to almost definitely)
So.... I am thinking of making a Specialist Wizard but no clue what Schools I should ban and why.
I remember reading somewhere that illusion school should not be banned because it is powerful at higher levels but can't find the post here again.

Any suggestions about schools and why? Thanks.

[dragonsamurai77]

In our campaign there are no original characters, we have all died at least twice and have had to reroll. I can see the skulls flying over my current character's head (rust monster encounter and drained of 8 points strength and no way of healing or resting since we are trying to run out of these caves as we are being chased I think my death has gone from maybe to almost definitely)
So.... I am thinking of making a Specialist Wizard but no clue what Schools I should ban and why.
I remember reading somewhere that illusion school should not be banned because it is powerful at higher levels but can't find the post here again.

Any suggestions about schools and why? Thanks.

Evocation and Enchantment; blasting-type spells are pretty much the worst things you could be doing with your limited spell slots, while too many things are immune to Enchantment.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Enchantment and Evocation are the best schools to ban (the former is triial to neutralize and the latter can be replaced by 3 spells, never mind that conjuration can blast better) followed by Necromancy and then Abjuration. Ilusion has some incredibly useful defences and their utility is limited only by your imagination (and your DM's permisiveness), conjuration and transmutation are just so damn useful and versatile that banning either of them is stupid.

[ksbsnowowl]

Be a Conjurer, take the Abrupt Jaunt ACF from PHB2 in place of the XP bomb. Ban Evocation and Enchantment.

Better yet, be a Focused Conjurer (Comp Mage), and also ban Necromancy.
(Abjuration is too important, due to Dispel Magic).

Web will have you winning at dungeon crawls.

[Malroth]

Or be a gnome Illusionist that goes for shadowcraft mage and get evocation back at lv 6 (gotta love shadow contigency and forcecage).

[Arcanist]

Or be a gnome Illusionist that goes for shadowcraft mage and get evocation back at lv 6 (gotta love shadow contigency and forcecage).

If you're into some real optimization you can get even 9th level spells! :smallbiggrin:

[Sith_Happens]

So.... I am thinking of making a Specialist Wizard but no clue what Schools I should ban and why.
I remember reading somewhere that illusion school should not be banned because it is powerful at higher levels but can't find the post here again.

Any suggestions about schools and why? Thanks.


take the Abrupt Jaunt ACF

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/29576573.jpg

[ksbsnowowl]

What? It's one of the best alternate class features in the whole game. Completely negate an attack Intelligence mod times per day.

Gnome Shadowcraft Mage isn't a bad idea either, especially if you can take the Shadowcrafter PrC from Underdark as well. You can end up with 120% real shadow spells; if they make their Will saving throw, it actually hurts them MORE.

[Emperor Tippy]

What level? What sources are allowed? Do you have to specialize? What role do you want to fill? What is your character concept? Rolled stats or point buy? Race restrictions? Party composition? Previous experience playing wizards or casters? Level of party optimization?

---
I generally hate specializing.

Grey Elf Generalist (racial sub level) Domain wizard (if allowed, my favorites are Abjuration, Anti-magic, and Transmutation) with Spontaneous Divination has the same number of spells with none of the downsides of specialization (and other benefits).

Spontaneous Divination makes Divination specialization idiotic. That means specializing will cost you two schools. Give up Evocation and you loose out on the best personal protection spells in the game along with a collection of other useful spells. Give up on Illusion and you loose out on some of the potentially most powerful and versatile spells in the game. Give up on Enchantment and you loose out on Mind Rape in high level play (that spell alone is worth keeping the entire school). Give up on Conjuration and you loose out on the entire teleportation line and some of the most generally useful spells in the game. Give up on Abjuration and you loose out on methods to protect against hostile magic.

Frankly, Necromancy is about the easiest school to give up and even then you loose out on a number of gems. Transmutation is about the next easiest to give up if you are not willing to abuse the polymorph line.

The sources you have access to can significantly change things though.

[chaos_redefined]

Chances are, you probably want to go with Conjuration or Transmutation as your specialization school. Other schools are valid, but those are the most versatile schools, and you can easily prepare a list of spells of every level that do different things.

For your banned school/s, Evocation and Enchantment are the usual first picks, for the reasons mentioned already. Necromancy and Abjuration are next on the list: Necromancy gives a bunch of good combat spells, but you will already have combat spells from your other schools, and Abjuration gives mostly standard action, rounds/level defensive buffs, which are generally not worth it compared to dumping some offensive buffs on your allies/debuffs on your opponents.

Only ban abjuration if you already have a party member capable of dispelling. Necromancy is bannable regardless of other party members.

Edit: So as to not double post...


Grey Elf Generalist (racial sub level) Domain wizard (if allowed, my favorites are Abjuration, Anti-magic, and Transmutation) with Spontaneous Divination has the same number of spells with none of the downsides of specialization (and other benefits).

I would be very hesitant to allow domain wizards, and if I did, I definitely wouldn't allow them to count as Generalists (since they are specializing in the domains). I would assume other DMs would do similar.

Assuming domain wizards are out, then we compare Elf Generalists (who get one extra spell of their highest level) and Specialists (who get one extra spell per level, in exchange for losing out on 2 schools). I won't be counting cantrips in these calculations

At level 1, the number of spells/day is equal. Either 4 or 5. But the effects of specialization aren't that great: If you can only cast 5 spells per day, and you have access to 6 schools of magic... Yeah.

At level 5, the elf generalist can cast between 10 to 12 spells per day, and the generalist can cast 2 more (an extra first and an extra second). In exchange, the generalist can have spells from all 8 schools... But there are gonna be some schools that are under-represented. At least 4 schools will only have 1 spell represented. This means, the specialist has to replace, at most, 2 spells with new spells, and then gets 2 extra spells/day as a reward.

At level 10, the elf generalist can cast 24 spells per day, and the generalist can cast 4 more. The generalist can take 3 spells from each school, but let's face it, it's never gonna be that even. At most (and this is unlikely), the specialist wizard has to replace 6 spells and gains a bonus 4.

At level 15, I'm not gonna bother counting anymore. A normal generalist is gonna break the game at this point.


Spontaneous Divination makes Divination specialization idiotic. That means specializing will cost you two schools. Give up Evocation and you loose out on the best personal protection spells in the game along with a collection of other useful spells. Give up on Illusion and you loose out on some of the potentially most powerful and versatile spells in the game. Give up on Enchantment and you loose out on Mind Rape in high level play (that spell alone is worth keeping the entire school). Give up on Conjuration and you loose out on the entire teleportation line and some of the most generally useful spells in the game. Give up on Abjuration and you loose out on methods to protect against hostile magic.

Frankly, Necromancy is about the easiest school to give up and even then you loose out on a number of gems. Transmutation is about the next easiest to give up if you are not willing to abuse the polymorph line.

The sources you have access to can significantly change things though.

A lot of campaigns don't see high levels, so Mind Rape and Contingency are not sufficient reasons to keep a school. Furthermore, Contingency can still be obtained with Craft Contingent Spell and Greater Shadow Evocation. But, if your campaigns are as high-powered as your post suggests, you can possibly get by with a specialist who banned Abjuration and Necromancy, and another who banned Enchantment and Necromancy. The one who banned Abjuration gets to use Mind Rape, and the one who banned Enchantment gets to use all the cool anti-magic toys.

[Emperor Tippy]

I would be very hesitant to allow domain wizards, and if I did, I definitely wouldn't allow them to count as Generalists (since they are specializing in the domains). I would assume other DMs would do similar.
And your basis for such an assumption?


Assuming domain wizards are out, then we compare Elf Generalists (who get one extra spell of their highest level) and Specialists (who get one extra spell per level, in exchange for losing out on 2 schools). I won't be counting cantrips in these calculations
The benefit of specialization is the additional slot of the highest level you can cast, the extra lower level slots become progressively less useful with the 1,2,3,4, and 5th level slots being essentially worthless once you purchase a portable automatic reset trap of Mage's Lubrication.

At level 1, the number of spells/day is equal. Either 4 or 5. But the effects of specialization aren't that great: If you can only cast 5 spells per day, and you have access to 6 schools of magic... Yeah.

At level 5, the elf generalist can cast between 10 to 12 spells per day, and the generalist can cast 2 more (an extra first and an extra second). In exchange, the generalist can have spells from all 8 schools... But there are gonna be some schools that are under-represented. At least 4 schools will only have 1 spell represented. This means, the specialist has to replace, at most, 2 spells with new spells, and then gets 2 extra spells/day as a reward.

At level 10, the elf generalist can cast 24 spells per day, and the generalist can cast 4 more. The generalist can take 3 spells from each school, but let's face it, it's never gonna be that even. At most (and this is unlikely), the specialist wizard has to replace 6 spells and gains a bonus 4.

At level 15, I'm not gonna bother counting anymore. A normal generalist is gonna break the game at this point.[/quote]
That is entirely missing the point. Not every level has useful or relevant spells from every school. Take core 9th level spells; unless you are willing to abuse Gate then conjuration is unlikely to be prepared, enchantment is essentially a waste, etc. Transmutation and Abjuration have the 9th level spells that are generally useful and nice in core; Time Stop, Disjunction, Shapechange, and Wish. The rest of the 9ths are situationaly useful.

That being said, the 7th level Transmutation are essentially forgettable. Conjuration dominates this level but Evocation has Forcecage and Illusion has Simulacrum.

Basically, every spell level does not have a useful or must have spell for every school and those useful or must have spells are distributed across all levels and schools.


A lot of campaigns don't see high levels, so Mind Rape and Contingency are not sufficient reasons to keep a school. Furthermore, Contingency can still be obtained with Craft Contingent Spell and Greater Shadow Evocation.
I wasn't talking about Contingency. It's nice but it can be gotten in other ways. I was talking about Resilient Sphere; it is bar none the single best defensive spell in the entire game.

Evocation also has Magic Missile (fell drain it and it's one of the best spells in lower level play and still useful in higher level play), Shatter, Tiny Hut (the cheapest 50% miss chance in the game), Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, Contingency, Forcecage, and Telekinetic Sphere.

Evocation sucks as a direct damage or blasting school, it dominates as a defensive school.


But, if your campaigns are as high-powered as your post suggests, you can possibly get by with a specialist who banned Abjuration and Necromancy, and another who banned Enchantment and Necromancy. The one who banned Abjuration gets to use Mind Rape, and the one who banned Enchantment gets to use all the cool anti-magic toys.
Or I could have two generalists and maintain that which makes the wizard the single most powerful base class in D&D; it's versatility.

[chaos_redefined]

I notice at this point that we play very different games... As shown by things like automatically resetting traps. And the assumption that high level is going to happen is also quite relevant (which I should have clued onto the first time)

I'm not familiar with high-level play, but I will agree that conjuration's 9th level options kinda suck... Transmutation has Mental Pinnacle/Elemental Body/Polymorph any Object/Time Stop. (If you don't have a familiar, replace Pinnacle with Flesh to Stone or Scalding Mud). Please note: This is theorycrafting, I don't have experience with these levels, but that list looks playable.

In the end, it depends on the expected level range of your campaign. If you start at level 1 and expect to finish before level 15, then conjuration is a good bet. If you start a bit higher and expect to still be going at level 20, then transmutation is the way to go.

Evocation is actually keepable if you know what you're looking at, it just has a bad reputation. Never thought about it until you pointed out Resilient Sphere and I double-checked TML20's guide. Bad reputation though. Resilient Sphere also doubles as a save-vs-maze effect.

[ericgrau]

Enchantment and abjuration. Enchantment has the lousy single target save or X spells that many things are immune too. It requires a lot of planning to manipulate your puppets well enough to make it actually worth it, which is something most wizards won't bother with unless they're specializing in it. Abjuration because the party cleric has all the best abjurations anyway and because a defense that works only under specific circumstances and only if you're lucky is worse than an offense that works under all circumstances and most or all of the time. Keep evocation because single target damage is the last thing you should do with evocation anyway so replacing that or basing the school's reputation on that is pretty meaningless. Try the non-damage evocations and the multi-damage evocations. I'd keep it if only for the best battlefield control spell there is: wall of force. No save, just out of the fight, we'll heal and gang up on you later. But there are a few other gems too. And shadow spells are so weak they're practically useless compared to, say, casting anything in the world that's actually good.

EDIT, even though non-damage evocations are better, since we're missing the good multi-damage evocations here they are: flaming sphere @ levels 3-6, fireball, cascading flame (SpC IIRC), chain lightning. Immunity is rare and there are easy ways around it.

Necromancy is another popular ban target because most people don't even know how to use it anyway. And it's ok to ban. But it has some real gems if you hunt for them. Including but not limited to the best no save just suck spells. On the flipside illusion is more bannable than people think. If you're not going to specialize in images that leaves defensive buffs and the invisibilities. Casting a defensive buff round 1 ruins over 1/3 of your offensive power; after all round 4 and 5 tend to be cleanup anyway and what you open with matters the most. All day defensive buffs are better... such as necromancy's false life. That leaves... the invsibilities. It hurts, but you can manage without them.

That leaves conjuration and transmutation. Both are keepers. But there are only a few awesome transmutations and they don't tend to be stackable. So in a party with 2 arcane casters you can actually ban transmutation too.

[Acanous]

Personally I roll a D8 for it, twice, and ban those two schools. If I get the same number twice, I play a specialist Divner. :p

Really, you can do anything with any combination of schools. There are builds that win D&D despite banning FIVE schools. (Keeping Divination, Abjuration, and pick one)
Fluff it that the rolled schools were unavailable in your area.

[TuggyNE]

Really, you can do anything with any combination of schools. There are builds that win D&D despite banning FIVE schools. (Keeping Divination, Abjuration, and pick one)

I'm pretty sure you can build a strong T2 equivalent with houserules restricting only one school (either Conjuration or Transmutation). Some would even argue that a single subschool of Conjuration (Creation, Calling, or Summoning at any rate) is enough to build a decent character around.

However, this tends to rely to a large extent on the variety present in splatbooks, and on careful planning and play.

[navar100]

Evocation's damage spells are not atrocious. It is likely true that casting Fireball or Cone of Cold does not Win you the fight right then and there. Neither does Web, Displacement, or Baleful Polymorph. Damage spells are a particular tactic and not a bad one. As a wizard, it is not your obligation to Win The Day on round 1, 2 the latest. It's certainly possible to do, but you are not playing BadWrongFun if another party member gets the kill after you damaged the bad guys a bit with Fireball and Lightning Bolt.

As for Enchantment, unless you know the campaign is heavy with undead, constructs, and plant creatures, there's nothing wrong with preparing a Charm Monster or Suggestion. It is prudent to diversify your spell selection. Don't prepare only Enchantments. It is still wise to have Web, Displacement, or Baleful Polymorph too.

Choosing what to ban depends on your choice for tactics for your character. If you "just know" you will never cast a spell from a particular school or maybe just once you wished you could, you can safely ban it. If it's Evocation and/or Enchantment, fine. I'm not saying never ban them, just not always. For my particular taste I always ban Necromancy. I don't give a rat's posterior how good Enervation is. I know me enough to know it's just not my style. If colloquial you love that spell, good for you. Cast away.

Think about your character. What does he like. What does he not like. What wonders of magic would you like to perform. That will decide what schools to ban. You don't need the Forum's approval.

[Dr.Epic]

Definitely ban Necromancy. If you really want to cast necromancy spells, just go cleric.

[dascarletm]

Ban Conjuration and Transmutation just to see if you can do it!:smallcool:

But seriously I usually pick based off the "feel" or character's story.

If story isn't a big part of the game/ you don't have a story you want to build around yet, let me refer you to Treantmonks guide.

Google Away!

[Dusk Eclipse]

The reason why Evocation is usually banned is because there are very few unique effects for it and/or other schools do it better. In straight blasting the orbs are just plain better than most evocations (SR:No is a big reason) and the other unique spells? Resilient sphere ?Shadow Evocation, Contingency? Craft Contingent spell... oh and Shadow Evocation once more.

[Emperor Tippy]

I notice at this point that we play very different games... As shown by things like automatically resetting traps. And the assumption that high level is going to happen is also quite relevant (which I should have clued onto the first time)

I'm not familiar with high-level play, but I will agree that conjuration's 9th level options kinda suck... Transmutation has Mental Pinnacle/Elemental Body/Polymorph any Object/Time Stop. (If you don't have a familiar, replace Pinnacle with Flesh to Stone or Scalding Mud). Please note: This is theorycrafting, I don't have experience with these levels, but that list looks playable.
Most things are playable and can be made to work. I can make a Focused Specialist of any school that is a solid tier 2, hell I can make a wizard using only one of the schools (your choice) that is a solid tier 2. The thing is that in every case they are less capable and powerful than a generalist unless you go with gratuitous abuse and cheese.


In the end, it depends on the expected level range of your campaign. If you start at level 1 and expect to finish before level 15, then conjuration is a good bet. If you start a bit higher and expect to still be going at level 20, then transmutation is the way to go.
Why do you think I asked the OP so many questions in my first post in this thread?


Evocation is actually keepable if you know what you're looking at, it just has a bad reputation. Never thought about it until you pointed out Resilient Sphere and I double-checked TML20's guide. Bad reputation though. Resilient Sphere also doubles as a save-vs-maze effect.

Evocation is a horrible school for attacking you enemies with or doing direct damage, it's an excellent school for keeping yourself and your party alive.


Enchantment and abjuration. Enchantment has the lousy single target save or X spells that many things are immune too. It requires a lot of planning to manipulate your puppets well enough to make it actually worth it, which is something most wizards won't bother with unless they're specializing in it.
Most wizards are idiots then. Enchantment has some exceptional spells and stripping defenses is relatively easy.


Abjuration because the party cleric has all the best abjurations anyway and because a defense that works only under specific circumstances and only if you're lucky is worse than an offense that works under all circumstances and most or all of the time.
Abjuration has one of the most critical and important spells in the game in it (Disjunction) along with the entire dispel line, teleportation defenses, mindblank, and a ton of other things that you really should have.


EDIT, even though non-damage evocations are better, since we're missing the good multi-damage evocations here they are: flaming sphere @ levels 3-6, fireball, cascading flame (SpC IIRC), chain lightning. Immunity is rare and there are easy ways around it.
None of the spells you named are remotely good.


Necromancy is another popular ban target because most people don't even know how to use it anyway. And it's ok to ban. But it has some real gems if you hunt for them. Including but not limited to the best no save just suck spells. On the flipside illusion is more bannable than people think. If you're not going to specialize in images that leaves defensive buffs and the invisibilities. Casting a defensive buff round 1 ruins over 1/3 of your offensive power; after all round 4 and 5 tend to be cleanup anyway and what you open with matters the most. All day defensive buffs are better... such as necromancy's false life. That leaves... the invsibilities. It hurts, but you can manage without them.
Illusion has a ton of useful spells, it's easier to ban than a number of other schools but it's still harder to ban than necromancy.


That leaves conjuration and transmutation. Both are keepers. But there are only a few awesome transmutations and they don't tend to be stackable. So in a party with 2 arcane casters you can actually ban transmutation too.
Transmutation in banable if you aren't going to mess with the polymorph line, it's certainly nicer than most other schools without said line but it's no longer critical.



The reason why Evocation is usually banned is because there are very few unique effects for it and/or other schools do it better. In straight blasting the orbs are just plain better than most evocations (SR:No is a big reason) and the other unique spells? Resilient sphere ?Shadow Evocation, Contingency? Craft Contingent spell... oh and Shadow Evocation once more.
Evocation is usually banned because most people are idiots and don't know how to get anything like the true potential out of evocation.

It also has a fair number of unique effects. Sure, you can Shadow Evocation; except that it's automatically worthless against anyone with True Seeing (they automatically recognize that it is an illusion and as the Force line is non-damaging effects they do nothing when disbelieved) and is a level higher (or several levels higher if you need to use Greater).

[chaos_redefined]

I'll admit to idiocy on Evocation. Resilient Sphere is freaking awesome, and there are some other really good spells around the place. It does have some things to do to the enemy which aren't bad, for example, Ray of Ice looks decent, as does Capricous Zephyr/Defenestrating Sphere. Resilient Sphere can remove an enemy until you can actually deal with him, as well.

[ericgrau]

On one caster I originally picked up resilient sphere as a backup defense but it was never necessary as such. It made a surprisingly good offense unlike other single target spells because reflex is the lowest save on average and immunities/resistances to that spell are much more rare than anything else. I remember people asking me what book it came from and I said, "Uh, the Player's Handbook."



None of the spells you named are remotely good.
Fireball on 3 or more foes is better than any other core 3rd level spell, and most 4ths. Against 1 or 2 foes it's passable. Hurting multiple foes is better than maybe-eliminating a single foe or a smaller number of foes. Even at the most common resistance most things are not fire resistant and most of those that are aren't fire resistant enough. Plus there are plenty of easy ways around that, as well as ways shape blasts. In one party I was in 2 or 3 round fights were pretty common, and in every campaign I've been in it's repeatedly very useful, often the best option. Boom 1, boom 2, melee cleans up leftovers, field empty before foes can respond much.

I think you're looking at rather particular circumstances. Same with abjurations. Working or failing a small portion of the time is pretty meaningless. And that's also why you prepare more than 1 kind of spell even though you try to make sure each one is usually useful.

[Lost in books]

With all the advise here I have gone Specialist Transmuter and banned Evo, Ench.

I am playing core only (PHB, MM1, DMG) so my plan was to go Eldricht Knight. Current build is as follows:

Barbarian 1/ Wizard 4. my current spells prepared. 0=mage hand, detect magic, resistance. 1=shield, grease, feather fall, enlarge person. 2=Acid arrow, alter self, glitterdust. (Entry to Eldricht Knight at lvl7)

So I hope this list gives me a bit of versatility with field control, direct damage, and self preservation buffs (alter self+shield) and help my tank with enlarge. What do you think?

Also I am told that the DM may allow players to pick one other book, so I am wondering what will be the most beneficial? Complete mage, Complete arcane, Spell compendium, others? Thanks!

[Cranthis]

Also I am told that the DM may allow players to pick one other book, so I am wondering what will be the most beneficial? Complete mage, Complete arcane, Spell compendium, others? Thanks!

Complete mage, for the Abjurant Champion Prestige class.

Edit: If only core is allowed, make an argument that Player's Handbook Two is core. Get yourself a few more spells for choosing.

[chaos_redefined]

I must ask... Why Eldritch Knight?

[ksbsnowowl]

I must ask... Why Eldritch Knight?

Because he obviously wants to make a Gish, and is restricted to Core?

If you are going Barbarian, rage Mage (comp warrior) is the only way to cast in a rage. Fighter actually works better because using your class feature doesn't preclude you from casting spells. But, you might just be into Barb for the fast movement and extra skill points, and that's cool too.

[chaos_redefined]

If it was someone familiar with wizards, then that would be the automatic answer, yes.

But this is someone asking for advice, and may think that Eldritch Knight is good for a generic wizard. Which is not the case. Also, considering that he didn't initially show any interest in being a gish, I figured it a good idea to check.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

With all the advise here I have gone Specialist Transmuter and banned Evo, Ench.

I am playing core only (PHB, MM1, DMG) so my plan was to go Eldricht Knight. Current build is as follows:

Barbarian 1/ Wizard 4. my current spells prepared. 0=mage hand, detect magic, resistance. 1=shield, grease, feather fall, enlarge person. 2=Acid arrow, alter self, glitterdust. (Entry to Eldricht Knight at lvl7)

So I hope this list gives me a bit of versatility with field control, direct damage, and self preservation buffs (alter self+shield) and help my tank with enlarge. What do you think?

Also I am told that the DM may allow players to pick one other book, so I am wondering what will be the most beneficial? Complete mage, Complete arcane, Spell compendium, others? Thanks!

Why Barbarian? Even Fighter gives you a bonus feat which can be relevant (Improved Initiative perhaps), but you can't cast while Raging, which gives you Mutually Exclusive Class Handled Abilities (MECHA) disorder.

Also, some critique concerning your spell list:

Acid Arrow = bad. Even Scorching Ray is better than Acid Arrow. Web makes for a wonderful companion to Glitterdust, and good area-effect lockdown.

An alternative would be Summon Monster 2. Because Disposable Minions can solve many problems.

For a non-Conjuration spell, look into Mirror Image for what can be argued as the best defensive spell in Core (barring plane shift/astral projection shenanigans).

[chaos_redefined]

I just realized... that says "Help my tank with Enlarge", not "Help me tank with enlarge". Which removes all doubt on your desire to gish... You aren't planning on it.

With that in mind, I strongly suggest against the level of Barbarian and the plans on going for Eldritch Knight. The lost caster levels are not worth it.

Instead, if you want to take a prestige class, plan for Loremaster and use Spell Compendium as your one splat, or find a prestige class that loses no caster levels and take that. (There are a couple that are good that lose a caster level, but they are rare, so meh.)

Finally, I suggest having a look through some of the wizard guids out there. There are 3 that I know of: this one (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2716), this one (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God) and this one (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com.au/2011/09/wizards-handbook-part-one-attributes.html). All 3 are good, but the first one is the simplest, the second is the most comprehensive and the third covers a lot of things that the first two didn't touch (Alternate Class Features, Race, etc...)

[Lost in books]

@ Chaos Redefined:

Thanks for the links, I will look them up. And you are right, I meant help the tank, not trying to tank myself unless no other option.

I see this character as an off/gish. Someone who rather stay on the sidelines as support but somewhat competent should he have to wade into the fray.

I realize I need to give more information about my choices so here it goes.
We started with the rule that we will be using core only books (PHB, DMG, MM1)

In this group my team tends to... die a lot. Sometimes is hilarious, but sometimes it is because of our characters sheer inexperience and stupidity (read Characters, not the players) because the players try hard not to metagame and play the characters according to their perceive intelligence and knowledge of the world.

Here is an example of a gaming session:
"Look a big chicken!!! I am going to get us a feast!!!" There goes the fighter rogue, somewhat smart but not wise at all. The Cleric fails his knowledge check "Yum! I call the breast!!!" And casts bless. The monk charges to give flanking bonus to fighter (yes a monk) and I playing at that time a ranger try to do what I always do, plink away.... Well needless to say... after a lengthy discussion of characters not knowing what a cockatrice looks like and what to do with the two statues of our friends it came to me we needed to have someone able to have an intelligence higher than 10 and some spellcasting for field control and buffs.

So the thought for this new character is to be able to provide the tactical advantage of some control spells and buffs to help my team (I am not trying to hoard the glory) and if all else fails be able to melee either to help mop up or be able to buy time for the rest of the team to survive.

So the reason for this build using CORE only is as follows:
Barbarian for the fast movement (better positioning, self preservation) 1st lvl Max HD of 12, and if all out of spells or needing that extra physical prowess of additional hit points or strength, use that one rage. And the required martial weapon proficiency for EK prestige. By the way I have cleared using my WBL to come in with a Mithril Chain Shirt +1 so that's 5AC (Yes I know it is not optimal with a 10% ASF but with core what else can I do?)

Wizard specialist to get that extra spell. At our current LEVEL 5, I took the spells I did for the versatility of control (Grease, Glitterdust) buffs for the tripper or tank (Enlarge person), and some self preservation buffs (alter self troglodite AC6+ Shield spell so total of +15 AC) and a no save no SR 2 rounds damage Acid arrow.

So for a lvl 1 Barbarian with 4 Wizard is this build so bad?
28 point buy of Str14 Dex14 Con14 Int16 Wis10 Cha8 (level points on int)

Not one game I ever played gets to LVL 20 but if I was to get there this build would look like this:
1 BARB/5 WIZ/10 EK/ 3 WIZ/1 BARB.
At LVL 20= 16 BAB for max iteratives, 9 LVL Spells, Uncanny Dodge, Fort 12 REF 6 (8 weasel) Will 9. Is this bad for core? i am trying to be useful at every level not create a theoretical LVL 20 monster that doesn't contribute at every level.

Now if I am allowed to bring only one book into the game, is the abjurant champion all that better than the Eldricht Knight? I will end up loosing BAB and HP over the life of the character. Of course if this campaign only last to level 10ish it doesn't matter but still I like an opinion based on the assumption of a lvl 20 end build.

I hope my clarifications explain better the concept and the challenges of Core only or +1 book. I know most people now a days are used to almost all books type of builds. Thank you!

[ericgrau]

Instead of 5 AC from the chain shirt why not 4 AC from mage armor and no ASF? You can cast it repeatedly to keep it active all day without wasting time on it before combat. Maybe once you get a ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1 and can also afford +2 armor then you could buy the armor to help you melee.

As for supporting the party, here's what you can do. Mage armor the monk, it's amazing for him. Between him and yourself this might be most or all of your 1st level slots for a while, and it's worth it. Consider a lesser rod of extend spell. For level 2 web is *the* superb control spell. If there's consistently a dungeon or any trees at all then get it. False life can give you even more hp to keep you alive, even more than your level of barbarian on average. For level 3 the best buff by far is haste, then for control there's sleet storm which is also amazing. Don't get it yet but once you have more spell slots greater magic weapon will be great for the whole party: fighter rogue, monk and you. Level 4 is the king of levels for control casters with Evard's black tentacles, solid fog, confusion, Otiluke's resilient sphere, wall of ice. To add to the temptations it also has dimension door, greater invisibility and stoneskin. The problem with level 4 isn't finding a great control/buff spell, but deciding which one to choose.

Enlarge person and the various level 2 stat buffs are pretty underwhelming when you could be doing other things with your turn. Maybe enlarge person will be worth it if you need a party member to grapple, but that isn't often the case. You could put it on a couple scrolls instead so the 1 or 2 times you finally do need it you have it. Likewise shield is rarely worth the time, but it's great on a scroll or two for when you do get 3 buffing rounds. I never understood all the hype behind grease or glitterdust. Their areas are too small to get many foes and neither is an actual disable, just a debuff. Though DMs are less likely to know the rules for working around invisibility/blindness/darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) and may make blind foes sit on their hands. For grease you just fight prone or if nothing is in melee range you simply crawl of it (move action, 5 feet, provokes). You might likewise carry a scroll or two of grease to save people from grapplers with the +10, or on the rare times you expect a foe to take more than 3 rounds to drop you could scroll of grease under him to help the fighter-rogue sneak attack. Either way make sure the scroll is caster level 3 or 4 not 1 so it lasts long enough.

Some people might pressure you into going full caster, and for a support role in a party with other melee it might be a little better. But being unique is 10 times more interesting. Another option might be to go wizard 6 before EK because it gives you both a spell and BAB.

[chaos_redefined]

I'm going to put this in a weird way. I will assume you have a 16 intelligence or higher by level 5. (Even elite array manages this by using the lvl 4 statboost).

Here's what a barbarian level gives you:
+8 hp. 1 rage/day. +10 ft movement. +1 BAB

Here's what a wizard level gives you:
Haste 1/day. Summon Monster III 1/day. Fly 1/day. And a bonus feat. If you only have core available, it's probably Extend Spell. Same if you take SC as your allowed splat. If you take Complete Mage or Complete Arcane, then you get some cool feats available there.

The barb version is set in stone, the wizard version is alterable, but it seems a pretty good list. Hitting your entire party with haste is significantly better than your feeble attempts at raging. Summon Monster III can act as movement if you need it to, but it also does a better job of fighting than the Barb1/Wiz4 will, even with it's +1 BAB. Fly covers the movement, and allows you to avoid getting hit, so it's like an extra bucketload of hit points.

If I missed something from barbarian, feel free to point it out.

[Lost in books]

Well the barbarian gets me the martial weapon proficiency needed for entry into eldricht knight.

But if I understand what you are saying is to use the complete arcane and become a straight Mage? Or is there a specific class you had in mind? If you read the build it starts with intelligence 16

The only reason I was trying to be a bit less squishy is because in our games we do track the hour of casting spells to see when we can relearn them (rule of casting within 8hours) and when we are on missions we seldom get a full 8 hours of sleep between encounters. Have any of you been in adventures where you can't regain your full spell allotment for days? What tricks do you have for those situations when you have run out of spells? Or is that unique to my group?

EDIT: this does not happen all the time but it is realistic and keeps us into trying to be alert, tactical and play smarter.

[chaos_redefined]

For a straight mage, I'd say Spell Compendium. Complete Mage has some nice spells and feats, but overall, the compendium is probably the better pick.

If you want a particular prestige class, then obviously you need to grab the associated book.

If running out of spells is a serious concern, then Complete Mage might be a higher pick for a reserve feat.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well the barbarian gets me the martial weapon proficiency needed for entry into eldricht knight.So does Fighter, which nets you a bonus feat instead of a worthless class feature.


But if I understand what you are saying is to use the complete arcane and become a straight Mage? Or is there a specific class you had in mind? If you read the build it starts with intelligence 16

The only reason I was trying to be a bit less squishy is because in our games we do track the hour of casting spells to see when we can relearn them (rule of casting within 8hours) and when we are on missions we seldom get a full 8 hours of sleep between encounters. Have any of you been in adventures where you can't regain your full spell allotment for days? What tricks do you have for those situations when you have run out of spells? Or is that unique to my group?Rope Trick solves this problem. You can't interrupt my sleep because I'm in a non-dimensional pocket of space while I sleep. It gets to the point where it becomes a 'reset button'.

As far as 'squishy' goes, that depends on how 'optimized' you want to get. If you want to Gish it up, then Fighter dip is pretty good. Pick Complete Mage as your one source, due to Abjurant Champion. Basically, full casting and full attack bonus PrC. Also gives bonuses to Shield and lets you cast it as a Swift action. Ask your GM if it works with Mage Armor. Technically, it shouldn't, although it is called out as an example.

[Jerthanis]

Personally, I ban Necromancy and Enchantment. Necromancy hurts for False Life and Enervation, but really by the teens, all I miss out of Enchantment is Greater Heroism for its Fear Immunity which is mostly because I can't think of another place you can get that out of the wizard list, not because fear is something you need a toolbox to solve or worth a 6th level slot in most cases. Confusion can be a good spell you give up though.

Evocation has Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, Grasping Hand, Contingency, Forcecage, and Sending. It doesn't have really good spells at level 1 or 9, but I'd consider those five irreplacable in a way far beyond 20 temp HP or a ray that does pretty good damage and debuffs one target. Sending can be replaced with Shadow Evocation, but damn, an 8th level spell for telegram service? Might as well Limited Wish for that if we're going for overkill. I'd almost call Evocation a must-have, although not so much as Transmutation or Conjuration. I'd put it on a level with Abjuration and a step above Illusion.

Evocation's bad reputation is weird to me... It's like someone somewhere once very convincingly said Evocation should be banned because it's all about blasting, and that Conjuration is better at blasting anyway... ignoring that other than Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, Flaming Sphere, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold and Chain Lightning, it's not really that much about blasting at all and those remaining blasts like Magic Missile and Scorching Ray are actually really cheap and versatile vessels for metamagic that work extremely well at what they do, albeit with the downside that some targets will require a different tool.

It's like... someone saying there's no point in having handguns in a world where bulletproof vests exist, so it's safe to give up ever using handguns in favor of learning to use bazookas... or some other tortured metaphor.

[TuggyNE]

It's like... someone saying there's no point in having handguns in a world where bulletproof vests exist, so it's safe to give up ever using handguns in favor of learning to use bazookas... or some other tortured metaphor.

Well, it's like saying either a) "no one will need infantry anymore with powerful aerial bombardment, including nukes and smart bombs"* (i.e., initially accepted, but demonstrably false) or b) "no one will ever use bows for serious warfare now that guns are so much more effective" (essentially true, with possibly a few niche exceptions).


*Yes, this was actually a thing at one time, although admittedly it was largely debunked before smart bombs really got going.

[Jerthanis]

Well, it's like saying either a) "no one will need infantry anymore with powerful aerial bombardment, including nukes and smart bombs"* (i.e., initially accepted, but demonstrably false) or b) "no one will ever use bows for serious warfare now that guns are so much more effective" (essentially true, with possibly a few niche exceptions).


Uh... how is it like that at all?

Okay, so when I made that similie I was thinking of Scorching Ray as a handgun because it's efficient, workaday, and inexpensive. I imagined Fire Resistance and SR/immune enemies as having a bulletproof vest which would do a lot to stymie your efforts. However, not everyone has bulletproof vests and if you prepare by loading different ammo (e.g. energy substitution or Searing Spell) you can still penetrate it sometimes. Other times you have to use a completely different approach.

I fail to see how Evocation is like infantry which can occupy, secure and protect an area while generating continuing intelligence versus Conjuration as an aerial bombardment which can cause a great deal of surprisingly precise destruction while unable to provide that kind of presence... or how Evocation is to be compared to a bow which is difficult to be taught the use of and requires more care to maintain and which has less range and penetrating power than Conjuration.

EDIT: And I'm really trying to understand you here, I'm not trying to be dismissive. Are you saying Evocation is like infantry because it has spells like Tiny Hut, that can engineer practical solutions to things, but the sheer might and scale of its accomplishments are relatively modest next to the superhero staples in Conjuration like Teleport and Planar Ally? Is Evocation like a bow in that it actually IS shorter range and does less damage than a similar, though higher level Conjuration spell?

[TuggyNE]

Uh... how is it like that at all?

I wasn't really referring to the characteristics of the schools at all at that point, only to the commonly accepted attitudes toward them, and drawing parallels with other common attitudes: i.e., sometimes conventional wisdom is correct in believing a method of fighting outmoded, and sometimes not.

Also, Conjuration tends to have more game-changers than Evocation does, hence the likening to warplanes or guns.

On reflection I suppose it wasn't that amazing a comparison, really.... :smallsigh:

[ericgrau]

Speed is handy on a kiting caster, and I like the variation of barbarian entry into EK compared to standard methods. Barbarian also nets an extra 2 hp which won't be worth much later but is handy early on. And if he gets desperate a free action 2 hp/level isn't bad. "Korg rage flee". Sure a combat feat is nice in high op builds, but this is core + 1. What's he going to do with it, start the tripping feat chain? Oh wait, rage strength is good for that too so it's worth delaying, and he gets limited mileage out of melee in general. Um, ok, weapon focus for an option he only uses part of the time. :smallconfused:

I'll second that spell compendium is the obvious +1 book. Almost a shame because this +1 rule means nobody will pick a book that's too specific when they could pick spell compendium or magic item compendium. And I think specific was the intent behind the +1 rule.

[Lost in books]

I agree. The DM's intent is that IF he opens other books that we really need to know what we want. He doesn't want to see the piecemeal approach of getting one weapon from one book, a feat from another, and multiple classes build from others. the standard is 2 classes one prestige, (maybe 3 if there is a really big compelling reason for it) but overall I think his approach makes sense and I think brings a bit of increased realism to such a fantasy world.

[Jerthanis]

I wasn't really referring to the characteristics of the schools at all at that point, only to the commonly accepted attitudes toward them, and drawing parallels with other common attitudes: i.e., sometimes conventional wisdom is correct in believing a method of fighting outmoded, and sometimes not.

Ah, I see. Sorry, I just got confused. Believe me, I'm familiar with drawing comparisons that don't turn out as good as they seemed in my head... like a poem...

Yeah... the attitudes are strange. I guess it's like... in 2nd edition Fireball was this huge landmark where the wizard went from a liability to someone who could clear encounters and really contribute and so when that dynamic so resoundingly went away it tainted the whole school even though it's got non-fireball spells in it.

But heck, part of it has to come down to encounter design too... I once saw a metamagic'd up fireball do a total of about 600 damage. If all fights were designed the way that fight was, and the way that sorcerer was, people would be ranting about how broken AoE damage can be with metamagic.

Anyway, Evocation is better than people tend to think it is and isn't the easy choice to be given up when specializing.