Falchion or Greatsword?

[Xander96]

Which is the better weapon on an overall dps rate, the falchion or the Greatsword?

[Kane0]

Going purely by numbers? Greatsword. The average damage roll is higher and less reliant on crits for damage.

If you are fighting a lot of things that are not immune to crits and you happen to be a lucky roller on that d20 then the Falchion can serve you well.

[Keld Denar]

Someone did the math. I think it is somewhere around +22 damage. If your Str + enhancement + other bonuses is more than 22, then the extra crit is decent.

If you get enlarged a fair amount, then the greatsword is worth even more. 2d6 scales up to 3d6, while 2d4 only scales up to 2d6. That makes it a 3.5 point average spread rather than a 1 pt spread.

[Xander96]

That's what I was thinking as well. Thank you for the confirmation!

[Cranthis]

Numbers say, greatsword. Even with the extra 15% chance of crit from Falchion.

Math time!

Assuming you do average damage on every hit:
We'll assume 100 hits for this, and of course average damage.

Formula for determining a weapons damage over 100 hits: (Regular hits x Average damage) + (Criticals hits x Double Average Damage) = Average Damage overall for 100 hits.

Greatsword: 10 hits out of 100 are crits, or 10%.
(90 x 6) + (10 x 12) = 660 Damage

Falchion: 15 hits out of 100 are crits, or 15%
(85 x 4) + (15 x 8) = 460 Damage.

So overall? Greatsword.
Edit: this is of course not factoring in bonuses and such. Just purely weapon damage.

[Keld Denar]

If you take Imp Crit our buy a keen weapon or a Scabbard of Keen Edges, it does tip a bit back toward falchion. Then the difference between the two threat ranges is 10%, which makes it a bit more even.

Also, Cranthis, average damage of 2d6 is 7, not 6. 6+1 over 2 is 3.5, which doubles to 7. Likewise, average damage on the falchion is 5. Doesn't change much, though.

And the Glaive is still the superior weapon of the 3. 5.5 average damage, but on average 1-2 free swings from AoOs per combat tip the scales heavily.

[Cranthis]

Yes, you are right. I just took max damage and divided it by two, I forgot that they have a minimum of 2 damage. My bad. Give me a few minutes to fix things.

[Cranthis]

Greatsword: 10 hits out of 100 are crits, or 10%.
(90 x 7) + (10 x 14) = 770 Damage

Falchion: 15 hits out of 100 are crits, or 15%
(85 x 5) + (15 x 10) = 575 Damage.

[Keld Denar]

So now set the two equal, and change the damage values to 7+x and 5+x respectively, then solve for x to figure out how much bonus damage the break even point is.

[Cuaqchi]

One major problem with those numbers, the 10% vs. 15% of hits as Crits is based on the ability to hit everything all the time. If you need 2's it is closer to 10.5% vs. 15.7% (Not too different), If you need 5's it is closer to 12.5% vs. 18.75 (Notice the separation that is appearing), If you need 10's it reaches 18.18% vs. 27.27%. None of these numbers include confirmation rolls either...

Logical justifications for those who wish to fight it.
You don't hit with every roll of the dice, no matter what your bonus is so to use 10% and 15% is a mathematically impossible comparison. Instead we have a to hit # (Due to AC) with a chance to miss, a chance to crit, and a chance to critically hit. Our misses our excluded from this case so we remove the "X" miss cases from the equation and result in the crit chance for Greatsword being 2/(21-Required To Hit #) and the Falcion being 3/(21-Required To Hit #)

In addition to this you also have to include a variable X which represents fixed bonus damage so that you can break out the pre-Calc. to determine exactly which points on the to-hit # and bonus damage values each weapon is superior.

[Randomguy]

Numbers say, greatsword. Even with the extra 15% chance of crit from Falchion.

Math time!

Assuming you do average damage on every hit:
We'll assume 100 hits for this, and of course average damage.

Formula for determining a weapons damage over 100 hits: (Regular hits x Average damage) + (Criticals hits x Double Average Damage) = Average Damage overall for 100 hits.

Greatsword: 10 hits out of 100 are crits, or 10%.
(90 x 6) + (10 x 12) = 660 Damage

Falchion: 15 hits out of 100 are crits, or 15%
(85 x 4) + (15 x 8) = 460 Damage.

So overall? Greatsword.
Edit: this is of course not factoring in bonuses and such. Just purely weapon damage.

Average damage for a greatsword is 7, and average damage for a falchion is 5.

More math time!
Let X be the damage bonus.


Greatsword: 10 hits out of 100 are crits, or 10%.
(90 x 7+ X) + (10 x 14+ 2*X) = 810 + 110X Damage

Falchion: 15 hits out of 100 are crits, or 15%
(85 x 5) + (15 x 8) = 575 + 115X Damage.

Solving for X gets you 47. So you need + 47 to damage, including 1.5*Strength mod, for the falcion to do more damage. That's doable, but pretty tough unless you're either high level or high optimisation.

Though the best weapon would probably be a minotaur greathammer In terms of raw damage dealing, I suppose.

[Snowbluff]

The Falchion benefits more from things like Keen, Prismatic Burst (similiar crit-based enhancements), or Kaorti Resin than the Greatsword. It gets my vote.

[ericgrau]

At low levels greatsword is better but at high levels with improved crit (or similar effect) the falchion does more damage. Even when you can't crit the damage difference between the two is tiny so you're never shut down. Unless you're in an all undead campaign the falchion's average damage overall is better at higher levels.

Basically the greatsword is +2 damage while the falchion is +5% damage, or +10% with improved crit. So that 22 base damage mentioned above must inclode improved crit (or keen edge or etc.). A high strength score and a +1 weapon hits about 22 at high levels, so you need rage and/or weapon specialization and/or smite and/or collision and/or greater magic weapon and/or etc. to pull ahead. A smite build is especially nice with crits. The drawback is at low levels when you're about 1 point of damage behind. And that even when you pull ahead at high levels it's likewise only an extra point or two of damage. So really the answer is that it doesn't make a huge difference either way.

Hmm, so paladin with extra smiting and a collision falchion could be interesting.

[Snowbluff]

When calculating the extra damage, you have to take into account the chance to miss as well. For example, if you roll 1-20 for attacks, you will always miss on a 1.

Also, calculating in crits is tricky at times. I find it easier to get the number of hits (counting a crit from a x2 weapon as 2 rather than 1). So an unmodified Falcion will hit once more per set of 20 than a great sword. IIRC, the gap widens in favor of the falchion when you don't have enough +Atk to hit 95% of the time.

[ericgrau]

I've done the math before and once you include crit confirmations 5% more crit is exactly 5% more damage except at the rare times when you can hit your critical threat range and still miss the enemy.

[eggs]

It's hard to respond with absolute certainty where the cutoff is. The exact value at which the Falchion does better damage depends on the target AC (confirmation isn't automatic).

The expected damage of a weapon is:

P(hit && !crit)*damage+P(hit && crit)*P(!hit)*damage+P(hit && crit)*P(hit)*damage*critmod
where "hit" is the event of an attack successfully hitting, "crit" is the event of an attack roll landing in the critical threat range and where "critmod" is the multiplier on a successful critical hit.

This simplifies to:

P(hit)*damage*(1+P(crit)*P(hit)*(critmod-1))
Damage for a falchion is X+5; damage for a greatsword is X+7, where X is bonus damage multiplied on a critical hit.
P(crit) is .15 for a falchion and .10 for a greatsword.
P(hit) varies by opponent.

Comparing the damage, assuming the attack's hitting at least 85% of the time [if not, the Falchion just doesn't compete], a falchion breaks ahead when:

P(hit)*(X+5)*(1+.15*P(hit)*(2-1))>P(hit)*(X+7)*(1+.10*P(hit)*(2-1))
which simplifies to

X>40/(P(hit))-1

So the Falchion ends up better for power attack specialists (I suppose also for other builds able to really stack up flat bonus damage without compromising hit chances, but we're generally talking Warblades and Shock Troopers), but the Greatsword's better for most melee builds.

EDIT: Plus Greatsword damage doesn't have to deal with die-swinginess or crit-invulnerable targets. Those are both pretty big.

[Spuddles]

Though the best weapon would probably be a minotaur greathammer In terms of raw damage dealing, I suppose.

There's a polearm from Eberron that has reach, 19-20 crit, and x4 damage.

[Snowbluff]

Keen Ninja-to far outstrips other weapons in terms of crit range, and any weapon can be x4 with Kaorti Resin, but you can't power attack with it.

[Spuddles]

Keen Ninja-to far outstrips other weapons in terms of crit range, and any weapon can be x4 with Kaorti Resin, but you can't power attack with it.

Kaorti resin isn't quite something you can skip on down to the local store and pick up, unfortunately.

[herrhauptmann]

Keen Ninja-to far outstrips other weapons in terms of crit range, and any weapon can be x4 with Kaorti Resin, but you can't power attack with it.

Wait, what?
Where's it say that? (Just checked Fiend Folio and didn't see it)

[Snowbluff]

Kaorti resin isn't quite something you can skip on down to the local store and pick up, unfortunately.

Yeah. I've always had to get it on special order. Such a pain. Too much paperwork.

A Kaorti Resin Keen Ninja-to would be a light weapon, so no power attacking. The resin does allow for power attacks. I just worded my statement with poor diction.

[thriceborn]

Keen Ninja-to far outstrips other weapons in terms of crit range, and any weapon can be x4 with Kaorti Resin, but you can't power attack with it.

What book is the ninja-to in? I've either never seen it, or can't remember it.

[HunterOfJello]

There's a polearm from Eberron that has reach, 19-20 crit, and x4 damage.

That was corrected in the errata.

[Xander96]

So in PF, if you were to hypothetically keen both the greatsword and the falchion. Does the greatsword still win out? I've also heard mentions about a glaive into the convo. So does that superceed the previously mentioned weapons?

[HunterOfJello]

If your weapon is keen then you'll want to go with a Falchion. The increased chance to crit is just too wide.

It is worth noting that the Scythe will come out with the most damage overall in the long run for keen weapons (though not by much). Its crits will be less often, but more substantial. However, this is all based on averages. Campaigns in D&D don't need you to do a good average amount of damage. They need you to do good damage when you really need it. Occasionally getting a massive crit against a goblin is worthless if you can't get it when you go up against a Beholder.


*edit*

One more thing worth mentioning. It's also good to remember that once you switch from using a single die to using multiple damage dice, your averages change quite a bit. The occurrences of different amounts of damage just between a 2d6 versus a 1d12 are massive. The greatsword only has a 1:36 chance of doing 12 damage on a 2d6 roll, whereas a greataxes has a 1:6 chance. Be mindful that once you switch to multiple dice that your damage will be more dependable to come up with an average, but far less dependable to get high numbers. (Although weapon damage is often inconsequential when you're wielding a 2handed weapon and have a 30 Strength.)

[Andezzar]

The occurrences of different amounts of damage just between a 2d6 versus a 1d12 are massive. The greatsword only has a 1:36 chance of doing 12 damage on a 2d6 roll, whereas a greataxes has a 1:6 chance.You mean 1:12 for the Greataxe (a 12 on a d12).


(Although weapon damage is often inconsequential when you're wielding a 2handed weapon and have a 30 Strength.)Even more so, if you add power attack (preferably with Shock Trooper, to not mess up your chance to hit).

To answer the OP's question, the answer is yes, both are good. The difference is very small. Take whatever you think looks best on your character.

[Xander96]

I was looking at other options & I noticed that both the heavy flail & the Guisarme aren't bad battlefield control options. Heavy flail has disarm & trip & Guisarme has reach & trip.

They have lesser damage, but if you are disarming/& or tripping. The enemy is having a difficult time hitting you because either A. they don't have a weapon in their hand or B. their prone on the ground.

[Andezzar]

The ranseur has 2d4, reach and gives you +2 on disarm checks.

If you take the exotic weapon proficiency feat, the spiked chain can do everything the last three can and then some. It looks stupid though.

[Snowbluff]

What book is the ninja-to in? I've either never seen it, or can't remember it.

Oriental Adventures. The weapon has a typo (or printing error) so that the threat range is 19-29. Keen doubles that absurdly wide range into 9-29. On a 20-sided die. A nice way to get your OA thrown at you.


If your weapon is keen then you'll want to go with a Falchion. The increased chance to crit is just too wide.

It is worth noting that the Scythe will come out with the most damage overall in the long run for keen weapons (though not by much). Its crits will be less often, but more substantial. However, this is all based on averages. Campaigns in D&D don't need you to do a good average amount of damage. They need you to do good damage when you really need it. Occasionally getting a massive crit against a goblin is worthless if you can't get it when you go up against a Beholder.



The average damage of a scythe is the same is a Falchion, but it's just weight all into the last number in a set of twenty. Falchion hit's once more on 18, 19, and 20 for 3 extra sets of damage, while the scythe does 3 extra damage, but only on 20. Scythe is only strictly better if you can not hit on an 18.

[Amphetryon]

Oriental Adventures. The weapon has a typo (or printing error) so that the threat range is 19-29. Keen doubles that absurdly wide range into 9-29. On a 20-sided die. A nice way to get your OA thrown at you.


That's not how doubling works in D&D, and is quite clearly abusive of a printing error/typo, since the initial threat range is impossible.

[Snowbluff]

The weapon has a typo (or printing error) so that the threat range is 19-29.



That's not how doubling works in D&D, and is quite clearly abusive of a printing error/typo, since the initial threat range is impossible.

I know. I said so. :smallannoyed:

[Andreaz]

One more thing worth mentioning. It's also good to remember that once you switch from using a single die to using multiple damage dice, your averages change quite a bit. The occurrences of different amounts of damage just between a 2d6 versus a 1d12 are massive. The greatsword only has a 1:36 chance of doing 12 damage on a 2d6 roll, whereas a greataxes has a 1:6 chance. Be mindful that once you switch to multiple dice that your damage will be more dependable to come up with an average, but far less dependable to get high numbers. (Although weapon damage is often inconsequential when you're wielding a 2handed weapon and have a 30 Strength.)Averages remain the same. Using more die normalizes in favor of the average result, but the average over infinite rolls is the same.

[Spuddles]

Averages remain the same. Using more die normalizes in favor of the average result, but the average over infinite rolls is the same.

His point was that D&D isn't a game of averages. Waiting for your 2d6 to average out won't help when you got crit by a greataxe.

[ericgrau]

Risk favors the weaker side, after all if everything is perfectly average then the stronger will win 100% of the time. So reducing risk is usually better for the PCs, since they tend to be stronger than their foes. If they weren't, campaigns would be very short.

Though if you have a 15-20 crit, 6 attacks and are rolling 2d4 + 40 the variation tends to be quite low regardless of how many dice you are rolling and regardless of your x2 crits.

A x3 or a x4 crit is another story. A x4 crit in the hand of a PC tends to lead to overkill and/or unlikely to land when he really needs it. In the hands of a monster it can mean one of the few PC deaths of the entire campaign.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

First of all, in actual play you'll get more damage out of a weapon that nets you extra attacks in a combat - specifically reach weapons. AoOs end up being much more valuable than a little bit of extra damage per hit. Moving on...

I agree with overkill effects. What the meleer really wants to know is how many swings it's going to take to kill an enemy, and damage per round is only an approximation of that effect. Overkill is pronounced at lower levels. For instance, let's take a low level meleer with +6 to hit and [weapon damage]+6 damage and put him up against a standard Gnoll (11 HP, 15 AC). Let's further assume that our low level meleer survives to make at least three swings.

His chance to kill the gnoll in one swing with a greatsword is 0.51; 0.258 in two swings; 0.1248 in three swings, etc.

His chance to kill the gnoll in one swing with a falchion goes down to ~0.409; ~0.278 in two swings; ~0.157 in three swings, etc.

His chance to kill a gnoll in one swing with a greataxe is only 0.3625; 0.2875 in two swings; 0.172 in three swings, etc.

Notice how the falchion, which has lower DPR than a greataxe in this low-end scenario, has a better probability of killing the enemy in one swing. This is because the falchion's damage is more normalized, and the meleer needs only a mediocre die result of 5 to kill the enemy in one regular hit.

If the meleer instead needed an above-average die roll to kill the enemy in one hit (camel attack!), the greataxe would come out on top, and the falchion would fare better due to its high chance of critting. So higher variance admittedly can benefit the players.

[Knaight]

So now set the two equal, and change the damage values to 7+x and 5+x respectively, then solve for x to figure out how much bonus damage the break even point is.

1.15(5+x) and 1.10(7+x) would be better. If you then take Enlarge into account you should also check 1.15(7+x) vs. 1.10(10.5+x). This does ignore overkill effects however.

[tyckspoon]

That's not how doubling works in D&D, and is quite clearly abusive of a printing error/typo, since the initial threat range is impossible.

While it is true that it's an obvious print error, that *is* how doubling of threat ranges works- count the number of digits that are threats in the original range and double that.

[Amphetryon]

While it is true that it's an obvious print error, that *is* how doubling of threat ranges works- count the number of digits that are threats in the original range and double that.

Again, show me your 29-sided die.

[Snowbluff]

Again, show me your 29-sided die.

Oh no. That is an entirely different problem entirely. We did double correctly. Just the Sword doesn't know what metric those numbers were supposed to be in the first place.

[Ulm11]

I have seen worse typos. in my phb it says a small sap does 1d43 damage and a medium sap dealing 1d63 damage.

[Snowbluff]

I have seen words typos. in my phb it says a small sap does 1d43 damage and a medium sap dealing 1d63 damage.

I think there is a boomerang in one of the books that does 23 damage. That's it. No dice, just 23. :smalltongue:

[Marlowe]

I think there is a boomerang in one of the books that does 23 damage. That's it. No dice, just 23. :smalltongue:

Well, that's nice and reliable. Where could I find one?:smallsmile:

[Snowbluff]

Well, that's nice and reliable. Where could I find one?:smallsmile:

I am AFB right now, but I'll try and find it. Keep in mind abusing these typos can be considered munchkinism. :smallsmile:

[Marlowe]

I am AFB right now, but I'll try and find it. Keep in mind abusing these typos can be considered munchkinism. :smallsmile:

Not serious. Not serious. Not serious. I like Longspears and Glaives.:smallbiggrin:

[Jerthanis]

Personally, I err on the side of the Falchion because of its increased critical potential. While at low levels, as GoodbyeSoberDay pointed out, the strength of the average blow is sufficient to kill most threats as HP totals climb with level, it becomes impossible to fell an opponent with a single average blow, but remains viable to kill with a critical for a surprisingly long time.

If you have the choice between an attack that deals 15-21 damage and one that deals 15-25 damage, and are fighting creatures with 30 HP, you'll want the one that has the higher chance of doubling to kill in one hit, since they won't get a reprisal. Once you're beyond the point where crits can drop foes in one hit, you're probably on to the point where your base damage will often be around the +22 mark where the falchion is objectively better longterm DPR as well.

Admittedly, I picked these numbers squarely out of thin air, so the idea of criticals being automatic instakills while noncriticals have zero chance of instakill isn't really going to play out, but I think the concept is valid... You aren't fighting a giant pile of 1,000 HP and comparing an average 115 attacks versus an average of 86 attacks to determine which is a more effective weapon and you're not going to see 1st level dynamics survive into the midlevels. If weapon dice strength were everything, Monk would be good at high level.

Crit-immune targets will put you back, but at least you're not a poor, poor rogue.

[Andreaz]

Only 95% of the critical threats have a chance to confirm. Assuming every critical threat hits...

You need a static bonus of 42 or more for the Falchion to beat the Greatsword (21 if Keen). Strength alone beats that at a +14 modifier (str 38).

A +5 keen falchion matches a +5 keen gs at Strength +11 (str 32).
Unless you are stacking raw damage really fast or get something else from crits, the falchion is inferior for a while

[Zdrak]

On very high levels, most of the damage is Power Attack, magic enhancements, and Strength (which is also magically enhanced). The difference between the Greatsword's 2d6+50 and the Falchion's 2d4+50 is trivial compared to the Falchion's higher chance to crit.

On low levels, you want the reliability of the GS.

[Andreaz]

You see, that's much harder to model. At lower levels creatures immune to crit are rare or trivial, so the GS advantage is uneeded.

I lean towards high crit chances precisely because the weapon's average damage is quickly subsumed, and those numbers aren't hard to achieve.

[ericgrau]

Eh zombies start at level 1, then oozes are quick to follow. And outsiders, dragons, giants, etc. go to 20+. Crittability doesn't actual change much with level. And since we're talking about a small amount of damage they don't negate crit weapons either so it's better to focus on the average. So maybe you don't count 100% of the crits when figuring average damage but you do count most of them.

[Andreaz]

Eh zombies start at level 1, then oozes are quick to follow. And outsiders, dragons, giants, etc. go to 20+. Crittability doesn't actual change much with level. And since we're talking about a small amount of damage they don't negate crit weapons either so it's better to focus on the average. So maybe you don't count 100% of the crits when figuring average damage but you do count most of them.Sure, how many do you want to be crittable, 60%? 70%?
At 60% you need 70 or 35 bonus damage to beat the GS with the Falchion.
At 70% you need 60 or 30.

Being very evil with 40%, you need 105 or 52.

But then you add the real bonuses! They reduce the propotion between the two average damages. Using a modest fighter with STR 20, reliably hitting with a +9 from power attack and weapon specialization, you get...
60%:47 or 12
70%:37 or 6
40%:82 or 29

The bonus damages REALLY flatten the averages' advantage once you go Keen.

[Jerthanis]

Only 95% of the critical threats have a chance to confirm. Assuming every critical threat hits...

You need a static bonus of 42 or more for the Falchion to beat the Greatsword (21 if Keen). Strength alone beats that at a +14 modifier (str 38).

A +5 keen falchion matches a +5 keen gs at Strength +11 (str 32).
Unless you are stacking raw damage really fast or get something else from crits, the falchion is inferior for a while

Sorry, was referencing Keld Denar's earlier post that mentioned "Somewhere around +22" as the cutoff for the Falchion passing up the Greatsword in pure DPR. I didn't crunch the numbers myself. But part of my point was that the situation isn't a matter of comparing longterm total damage accumulation, but of each weapon's potential to drop enemies in the extreme short term of a single turn or single attack.

My larger point was that pure DPR isn't the only factor in weapon preference, since the chance to multiply a single attack into the possibility of dropping enemies and thus reducing the number of actions on your opponent's side is more useful than the increased probability of dropping enemies on a second turn, since you have to endure the retributive attacks and suffer their effects.

Now, it could be argued that most CR appropriate enemies won't be able to be one-shotted by just one critical, and that my estimation of this value is off, but my point really wasn't that the Falchion's pure DPR passes up the Greatsword swiftly. It's that 2pac* is the only way to possibly drop something you walk up next to before it can tear your face off in return, and because of its more reliable criticals, Falchion edges it out just barely.

*(2-handed power attack critical)

[Spuddles]

Again, show me your 29-sided die.

Just use an electronic RNG.

:smallbiggrin:


Personally, I err on the side of the Falchion because of its increased critical potential. While at low levels, as GoodbyeSoberDay pointed out, the strength of the average blow is sufficient to kill most threats as HP totals climb with level, it becomes impossible to fell an opponent with a single average blow, but remains viable to kill with a critical for a surprisingly long time.

If you have the choice between an attack that deals 15-21 damage and one that deals 15-25 damage, and are fighting creatures with 30 HP, you'll want the one that has the higher chance of doubling to kill in one hit, since they won't get a reprisal. Once you're beyond the point where crits can drop foes in one hit, you're probably on to the point where your base damage will often be around the +22 mark where the falchion is objectively better longterm DPR as well.

Admittedly, I picked these numbers squarely out of thin air, so the idea of criticals being automatic instakills while noncriticals have zero chance of instakill isn't really going to play out, but I think the concept is valid... You aren't fighting a giant pile of 1,000 HP and comparing an average 115 attacks versus an average of 86 attacks to determine which is a more effective weapon and you're not going to see 1st level dynamics survive into the midlevels. If weapon dice strength were everything, Monk would be good at high level.

Crit-immune targets will put you back, but at least you're not a poor, poor rogue.

I prefer larger or more frequent crits to slightly better average damage, for exacty these reasons. A crit vs. 4 frost giants at ECL 10 is more likely to turn that into 3 frost giants faster than a few more average damage. Due to the discreet nature of the system, burst damage is good because it removes opponents faster. Given the proper parameters, Crit reliance in D&D can be thought of as a stun proc or death proc.

For instance, the level 13 warblade uses a keen greataxe. Triple damage is basically instant death, given all of his static damage. That 1d12 means a few less damage per turn, but given his opponents have 100+ HP, requiring 100 swings to average out isn't nearly as good as having a 10% chance to simply remove an enemy from combat.


Only 95% of the critical threats have a chance to confirm. Assuming every critical threat hits...

You need a static bonus of 42 or more for the Falchion to beat the Greatsword (21 if Keen). Strength alone beats that at a +14 modifier (str 38).

A +5 keen falchion matches a +5 keen gs at Strength +11 (str 32).
Unless you are stacking raw damage really fast or get something else from crits, the falchion is inferior for a while

My group has never played with crit confirmation, which really changes things. That said, if the average enemy's HP is greater than a single hit with a greatsword but less than a crit from a falchion, the falchion is the superior weapon. Enemy removal is more important than avg damage, imo.

Having allies also helps, since a crit + aoe damage + cleave can really help clear out enemies. Enemy removal per round is superior to average damage. At low levels, average greatsword damage should be enough to one shot most enemies, which means cleave has great utility. A glaive increases average damage, but unless there's a way to turn those extra attacks into enemy removal (like a battlebuddy who follows up with more stabbing, or trip attacks), I don't think a glaive is necessarily superior.


You see, that's much harder to model. At lower levels creatures immune to crit are rare or trivial, so the GS advantage is uneeded.

I lean towards high crit chances precisely because the weapon's average damage is quickly subsumed, and those numbers aren't hard to achieve.

I have never played a low level campaign that didn't feature oodles of skeletons. We just switched to PF, though, and you can crit undead there.

[Keld Denar]

Actually, crit damage isn't as large of a consideration for most ToB classes. Most strikes are variable bonus damage which doesn't multiply. If you crit with Mountain Hammer, for example, you still only get +2d6 damage. Now, some strikes are still crit friendly, like Emerald Razor (when combined with Power Attack, which multiplies) and Strike of Perfect Clarity (which is static bonus damage), but for the most part, critting doesn't matter with strikes. Some other stuff, like Blood in the Water, is dependent on crit frequency, which favors higher crit rates over higher multipliers.

[ericgrau]

Sure, how many do you want to be crittable, 60%? 70%?
I think even 70% is a bit low. Uncrittable foes are more of the exception at any level, except in specialized campaigns. But 2/3 (67%) is a good safe bet to make a conservative estimate, meaning you need at least ~30 base damage to come out ahead.

Also keep in mind that we're talking about 1 or 2 points of damage. Even early on you're at about -1 damage, you're at -2 damage vs. uncrittable foes and even after you optimize and have 40 base damage we're talking an extra +1 damage on average.

Then the real answer is "C. You should get a weapon that sacrifices a measly 1-2 damage for a special ability instead." Like reach or tripping. I like guisarmes, for example.

Pathfinder does boost crits a bit not only through more crittable foes but through more crit feats. And you get more feats to burn. In PF a crit weapon is a good idea as soon as you can get the crit chain, meaning level 11 if not level 8.

[Spuddles]

Actually, crit damage isn't as large of a consideration for most ToB classes. Most strikes are variable bonus damage which doesn't multiply. If you crit with Mountain Hammer, for example, you still only get +2d6 damage. Now, some strikes are still crit friendly, like Emerald Razor (when combined with Power Attack, which multiplies) and Strike of Perfect Clarity (which is static bonus damage), but for the most part, critting doesn't matter with strikes. Some other stuff, like Blood in the Water, is dependent on crit frequency, which favors higher crit rates over higher multipliers.

Apologies; I didn't mean "a warblade", I meant "the warblade", as in the one in my campaign. Strikes are good on rounds you move, but full attack damage often pulls ahead. This particular warblade also prefers maneuvers that keep him alive by using up his swift actions, since greataxe full attacks with power attack can be pretty brutal.

[Jerthanis]

I prefer larger or more frequent crits to slightly better average damage, for exacty these reasons. A crit vs. 4 frost giants at ECL 10 is more likely to turn that into 3 frost giants faster than a few more average damage. Due to the discreet nature of the system, burst damage is good because it removes opponents faster. Given the proper parameters, Crit reliance in D&D can be thought of as a stun proc or death proc.

Agreed, but the reason I prefer the Falchion and its reliable crits over the spikiness of the Greataxe/Scythe end of the spectrum is that the reliability of the proc is the scarcer resource. You can get flat damage bonuses all over the place and for relatively cheap, but the only place you can get reliability is from the weapon's base rate and from keen/improved critical. In addition, x3 and x4 can wind up being overkill on any weaker monsters you face.

However, this can change based on the composition of your party or the monsters you face.