Powerful Charge and Improved Sunder

[AlanBruce]

Greetings! A scenario in my campaign will soon revolve around a warrior swimming to the depths of a lake to hunt (but not kill) a dragon eel (MM3).

Looking at the creature, this is one isn't too bright, but its feat selection is geared towards rudely incapacitating those who would try and attack it - especially underwater. what caught my attention was that it has improved sunder and powerful charge. This is the scenario I was proposing and I would like to see if it can be done.

The warrior has a +2 adamantine falchion. He currently has water breathing on, so drowning is not an issue. The issue is that the warrior is no good when it comes to spot and listen checks. The dragon eel has decent hide and move silently, on top of listen. What I was planning to do is have the creature is get a surprise round and do a powerful charge at the warrior-but not swallow him. The monster will slowly put the fear in the lone warrior as he attempts to sunder his falchion. I have read the rules on sunder, saying both attacker and attacked get an opposite roll. Would this scenario warrant one? Considering that the creature will charge from hiding. Can the creature even perform a sunder attempt with a powerful charge and power attack? I would guess not, but if anyone has an exact ruling, I would be most grateful, since this beast could probably break the falchion with a well placed powerful charge + sunder + power attack combo.



If I'm not mistaken, the +2 falchion has 24 hardness and 33 hp. The dragon eel, if the rules above allow, could shatter the blade, but that would be too easy. Any clarification would be most welcome.

Thank you in advance.

[Gwendol]

Yes, the dragon eel should be allowed to attempt a sunder at the end of a charge, taking advantage of the powerful charge feat when calculating the damage made to the blade. Note that the monster gets +4 to the attack roll for being large, while the warrior gets the same bonus for wielding a 2-handed weapon.

[Andezzar]

I'm not so sure the defender gets the +4:

The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty.The defender is not making a sunder attempt.

[Gwendol]

Good catch! Yeah, so the fighter will just roll normally.

[Darrin]

I'm not so sure the defender gets the +4:
The defender is not making a sunder attempt.

Read the sentence directly before that one:

"You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty."

The attacker and defender are both making a roll modified by the size of the weapon. The defender is still "wielding" a weapon during a sunder attempt. Just as a two-handed weapon tends to have more "weight" or more "force" behind it, any two-handed weapon resisting a sunder tends to be "thicker" and more resistant to damage, and thus more difficult to sunder than a light weapon.

[ksbsnowowl]

Keep in mind that a natural attack is a light weapon, so the Dragon Eel would be at +4 for being large, but -4 for using a light weapon.

[AlanBruce]

Thank you for the responses. I had pondereed on the eel's bite as a light weapon vs. his bonus for being large. So I will factor the +4 and -4 to the math when the attack hits (if it does, of course).

It should be noted that, for an adamantine weapon, it doesn't have that much hardness and hp, at least when you consider the damage output this thing can do with one well placed attack.

[Andezzar]

It should be noted that, for an adamantine weapon, it doesn't have that much hardness and hp, at least when you consider the damage output this thing can do with one well placed attack.Is there a rule for first multiplying by 4/3 and then adding +10 HP per enhancement bonus? The other way around the weapon would have 40 HP.

[Alabenson]

One problem I see with this plan is that there is a rule that states that one cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has an equal or greater enhancement bonus (DMG, pg. 222 under Hardness and Hitpoints).

[Diarmuid]

One problem I see with this plan is that there is a rule that states that one cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has an equal or greater enhancement bonus (DMG, pg. 222 under Hardness and Hitpoints).

I know 3.0 had a chart somewhere stating what DR's certain HD let you bypass as normal, but I dont think that chart was updated to 3.5.

[AlanBruce]

I had read that rule as well, but I believe it was in 3.0

Unless they did an update for 3.5. If that is the case, then the dragon eel won't be able to sunder the falchion, which would make the warrior's job somewhat easier (he agreed to deal non-lethal damage to the beast and bring it to shore unconscious.)

[Alabenson]

I had read that rule as well, but I believe it was in 3.0

Unless they did an update for 3.5. If that is the case, then the dragon eel won't be able to sunder the falchion, which would make the warrior's job somewhat easier (he agreed to deal non-lethal damage to the beast and bring it to shore unconscious.)

The rule in question has nothing to do with DR, but specifically relates to the ability to sunder magical weapons. The page and location I quoted was in the 3.5 DMG, so the rule is still in effect in 3.5.

[AlanBruce]

The rule in question has nothing to do with DR, but specifically relates to the ability to sunder magical weapons. The page and location I quoted was in the 3.5 DMG, so the rule is still in effect in 3.5.

Thank you for clarifying that. I had read on the rule and assumed- wrongfully - that dragons could strike as magic weapons.

[TuggyNE]

The rule in question has nothing to do with DR, but specifically relates to the ability to sunder magical weapons. The page and location I quoted was in the 3.5 DMG, so the rule is still in effect in 3.5.

Any idea where to find it in the SRD? Because I'm turning up nothing, and that makes me wonder if it got errata'd.

[Spuddles]

If the eel can't hurt the fighter's weapon, will he just not be a sunder monkey, or will he somehow know not to try, or will he waste a few actions biting on the fighter's sword?


Keep in mind that a natural attack is a light weapon, so the Dragon Eel would be at +4 for being large, but -4 for using a light weapon.

Where are the rules that state a natural attack is a light weapon?

As far as I can tell, natural weapons are either primary or secondary, and sometimes finessable, but not necessarily light.

Primary natural attacks get full power attack bonus and str x1.5 to damage. A dragon eel's primary attack is its bite, so I don't think it would count as light.

[AlanBruce]

That is true. The fighter has agreed to give the eel alive to a glaistig so she may feed off it and leave a tribe of swamp dwellers alone. The fighter is a gish and plans to use his sword's pommel and wraithstrike to subdue the monster and drag it to shore. The eel has a great advantage- decent stealth checks vs. the fighter who has none. So it may attempt to sunder (only to fail), and then hopefully win initiative and hide in the murky depths. Fighter follows and cue in ambush rounds from the eel until the fighter decides to leave before he's eaten.

I know it's fluff and mechanically it does not affect, but an adamantine weapon's pommel wouldn't be made of adamantine for purposes of overcoming DR, would it?

[Spuddles]

Unless the fighter is taking -a lot for improvising his falchion as a weapon, doing non lethal damage should still count as an attack with the weapon, therefore still adamantine.

Remember that spells with verbal components are difficult to cast underwater.

[Alabenson]

Thank you for clarifying that. I had read on the rule and assumed- wrongfully - that dragons could strike as magic weapons.

Well, they can strike as magic weapons for the purposes of overcoming the DR of opponents with DR -/magic, but not for the purposes of sundering weapons.


Any idea where to find it in the SRD? Because I'm turning up nothing, and that makes me wonder if it got errata'd.

I'm afraid I can't help you with the SRD; I use .pdfs of the books themselves, so I'm not really familiar with how the SRD is layed out.

[AlanBruce]

Unless the fighter is taking -a lot for improvising his falchion as a weapon, doing non lethal damage should still count as an attack with the weapon, therefore still adamantine.

Remember that spells with verbal components are difficult to cast underwater.

Since the gish in question is currently under the effects of water breathing, wouldn't casting underwater be just as normal as if casting on land? Also, wraithstrike is a swift action. I thought those didn't have a chance to miss.

[ksbsnowowl]

Where are the rules that state a natural attack is a light weapon?

Admittedly it is in an odd place, but it is there, nonetheless:

Weapon Finesse [General]
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: A fighter may select Weapon Finesse as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Natural weapons are always considered light weapons. Also, from the Power Attack feat:

You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks)...
And the weapons chapter, which does not deal with natural attacks (as no core PC races have them), but does address unarmed strikes:
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.


Any idea where to find it in the SRD? Because I'm turning up nothing, and that makes me wonder if it got errata'd. I think you are probably right. Three reasons:
1) I was also under the impression that said 3.0 rule had been removed in 3.5.

2) It conflicts with the PHB, p. 165

Magic Armor, Shields, and Weapons: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield and +10 to the item’s hit points. Whereas the reference in the DMG states each +1 adds +1 to both hardness and hit points.

3) The errata does indeed remove the line stating that you must have an equal or better enhancement bonus to sunder a weapon.

Hardness and Hit Points
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 222
Problem: The first paragraph is not consistent with similar
information for shields on page 217.
Solution: Delete the first sentence after the boldface header.
Change the next sentence to read as follows:
Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or
shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points.

ie -

Hardness and Hit Points: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck. Each +1 of enhancement bonus also adds 1 to the weapon’s or shield’s hardness and hit points. (See Table 8–8, page 158 of the Player’s Handbook, for common weapon hardnesses and hit points.) Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or
shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points.

So, in summary:
Your Dragon Eel CAN sunder the weapon in question.
He does take a -4 to the sunder attempt because he is using a light weapon.

[AlanBruce]

CAN[/b] sunder the weapon in question.
He does take a -4 to the sunder attempt because he is using a light weapon.

Thank you very much for clarifying that! If that's the case, the dragon eel will go for the sword in the surprise round, applying the -4 to attack for being a light weapon and then a +4 for being large (effectively canceling both out). However, the gish has wraithstrike prepared. Could he use wraithstrike against the dragon eel for the disarm attempt, considering a successful surprise? That would make the monster's attacks useless, as the spell is more than likely to make the gish hit, even if he is going for non-lethal damage.

[LordBlades]

[QUOTE
Thank you very much for clarifying that! If that's the case, the dragon eel will go for the sword in the surprise round, applying the -4 to attack for being a light weapon and then a +4 for being large (effectively canceling both out). However, the gish has wraithstrike prepared. Could he use wraithstrike against the dragon eel for the disarm attempt, considering a successful surprise? That would make the monster's attacks useless, as the spell is more than likely to make the gish hit, even if he is going for non-lethal damage..

Casting Wraithstrike is a swift action, so he can only do it on his turn. The duration is 1 round, so if he uses it on his turn he will have it active for all AOOs and such until the start of his next turn.

[ksbsnowowl]

Wraithstrike is a swift action, not immediate, so assuming the eel does get surprise, he can charge and sunder in the surprise round, before th PC has a chance to cast wraithstrike.

It wouldn't matter anyways, as they are making opposed attack rolls, and making a touch attack would have no bearing on that at all.

What COULD have an effect is if th PC had just cast True Strike. True Srike applies to your next attack roll, which sunder is (for both attacker and defender.) True strike is also the way to nearly auto-succeed on disarm attempts.

[AlanBruce]

Casting Wraithstrike is a swift action, so he can only do it on his turn. The duration is 1 round, so if he uses it on his turn he will have it active for all AOOs and such until the start of his next turn.

Thank you very much! I keep forgetting it's a swift action. Assuming he's flatfooted if caught by surprise, he won't even get an immediate action to abrupt jaunt, so he's effectively hitting a normal AC or getting his sword shattered. If the eel fails., enter initiative and hope to win vs. the gish's, then begin ambush tactics.

Thank you very much!

[AlanBruce]

Wraithstrike is a swift action, not immediate, so assuming the eel does get surprise, he can charge and sunder in the surprise round, before th PC has a chance to cast wraithstrike.

It wouldn't matter anyways, as they are making opposed attack rolls, and making a touch attack would have no bearing on that at all.

What COULD have an effect is if th PC had just cast True Strike. True Srike applies to your next attack roll, which sunder is (for both attacker and defender.) True strike is also the way to nearly auto-succeed on disarm attempts.

The gish does not have True Strike learned, much less prepared. He did cast haste before jumping into the water, but I don't think the spell gives him any benefits other than a +1 to attack for the sunder attempt.