3.5 to PF - changed feats

[Man on Fire]

Working o my first Pathfindr game I heard there is a number of feats who had been significantly changed for worse, either by being weakened or getting too high requirements. I have to ask you guys - which feats have been given that treatment and are overall worse when compared to their 3.5 versions? And how much of a balance it would change to replace them by their 3.5 versions?

[Andreaz]

Working o my first Pathfindr game I heard there is a number of feats who had been significantly changed for worse, either by being weakened or getting too high requirements. I have to ask you guys - which feats have been given that treatment and are overall worse when compared to their 3.5 versions? And how much of a balance it would change to replace them by their 3.5 versions?Many didn't actually get worse, but let's get to it.

Power Attack and Combat Expertise
These aren't "penalty up to bab" anymore. Instead, you are forced to take a fixed penalty (varies from -1 to -6) and base your bonus off that. It does have a much lower penalty-to-bonus ratio though. PA is only worse off in PF because you don't have Shock Trooper cheese, otherwise it's about the same thing.
(The loss of shock trooper cheese is one of the worst blows to melee damage...but melee damage is still the best around from what I can see)
Improved Trip/Grapple/Bull Rush/Overrun/Drag/whatever
These feats didn't get worse exactly, but in 3.5 you had to spend one less feat to get the entire tree.
Cleave, Great Cleave
This one changed completely. Now it's "standard action, -2 ac. If you hit one guy, you can hit another" (great cleave chains that effect, becoming a str-based Whirlwind Attack). Something funny happens here. In 3.5, Cleave was a neat-but-weak effect, while Great Cleave was all but useless. Here it's the opposite. Cleave is entirely replaced by Great Cleave, which is a good way to handle multiple targets. The 3.5 Cleave/Great Cleave are now called Cleaving Finish(and Greater), and they are worth exactly as much as before.

I don't recommend going back to the old Power Attack, but you can condensate the Improved Maneuvers. I also recommend rolling Great Cleave into an automatic upgrade of Cleave.

[McSmack]

On the whole I find the PF feats to be a bit better balanced, and you get more of them, which is always nice. There are always a few of the weak feats that I houserule to make them more enticing - Toughness gives +1/HD, Dodge and Weapon Focus scale with BaB, etc.

[Andreaz]

On the whole I find the PF feats to be a bit better balanced, and you get more of them, which is always nice. There are always a few of the weak feats that I houserule to make them more enticing - Toughness gives +1/HD, Dodge and Weapon Focus scale with BaB, etc.
PF toughness always gave +1/HD.
Which still sucks, but is indeed better.

[Dekion]

Speaking of Dodge, it now ads a +1 dodge bonus to AC rather than against a specifically designated target. It took me a bit to notice this as I assumed it worked the same in PF as in 3.5, but an overall AC bonus (even if it is "Dex" based) is a definite improvement.

[jmelesky]

Dodge, in PF, is just a blanket +1 dodge bonus to AC. No weird fiddly bits about designating opponents.

Skill feats (Skill Focus, Acrobatic, etc) now scale. Skill Focus gives you +3, or +6 if you have 10 or more ranks. The +2/+2 feats are now +2 to each, or +4 for each with more than 10 ranks.

As mentioned, Power Attack has a fixed scale based on BAB. It also translates to more damage: it's +2 to damage for each -1 to attack. That increases to +3 for two-handed weapons (and down to +1 for off-hand weapons).

Armor Proficiency is very slightly different. Armor check penalties for proficient users apply to all Str- and Dex-based skills, rather than a specific list of skills.

Weapon Finesse no longer has BAB +1 as a prereq, so (e.g.) rogues can take it at 1st level.

[Dienekes]

Power Attack and Improved Trip are the big ones that I remember.

Honestly, for the unoptimized or new players PF Power Attack is probably better, getting more bang for your buck and the only choice you need to worry about is to PA or not to PA. But it's lost all the choice and complimentary feats. Personally in my games I've changed the scaling from 1-6 to 1-10 and allowed my players to choose what penalty they want to take like the old one did.

Improved Trip got rid of the free attack after a successful trip attempt. Instead you can later get Greater Trip where the tripped opponent suffers an AOO. I just make this one go back to it was in 3.5 and have the Greater version allow your allies from using the AOO. I apply this to all the maneuver feats really, which I think 3.5 should have done instead of making Trip the obviously best maneuver.

Honestly I haven't had much problem mixing PF and 3.5 feats at all. There is probably someone later who will point out all sorts of loop holes and things that don't make sense my way. But for my own part, it works fine. And some PF feats actually are fun.

Oh, and the armor proficiency feats are straight up worse. Use the 3.5 versions. Seriously, who was calling for a nerf to knights in armors ride check?

[RFLS]

Seriously, who was calling for a nerf to knights in armors ride check?

Bet you a dollar it was SKR. Those martial types are OP.

[jmelesky]

Oh, and the armor proficiency feats are straight up worse. Use the 3.5 versions. Seriously, who was calling for a nerf to knights in armors ride check?

My assumption was that it was aimed at rules cleanup rather than nerfing any particular skills.

On the other hand, combined with the fighter's Armor Training feature, it may have been a backhanded boost to straight fighters.

[RFLS]

My assumption was that it was aimed at rules cleanup rather than nerfing any particular skills.

On the other hand, combined with the fighter's Armor Training feature, it may have been a backhanded boost to straight fighters.

Despite the color of my text, I'm actually inclined to stick with my theory, sadly.

[navar100]

PF toughness always gave +1/HD.
Which still sucks, but is indeed better.

It doesn't suck. You may not like it, but it is a nice feat. Works well with class favored bonus of a hit point per level. Two hit points per level puts a little less stress on Constitution for Point Buy considerations or even dice roll when you'd rather have the "adventurer's tax" 14 somewhere else and will settle for a 10 or 12 in Con for a non-warrior. Even warriors with 18 Con could seriously consider the idea.

[Dienekes]

My assumption was that it was aimed at rules cleanup rather than nerfing any particular skills.

On the other hand, combined with the fighter's Armor Training feature, it may have been a backhanded boost to straight fighters.

This is stupid for several reasons. The two most obvious ones is that it is still a nerf to fighters, just slightly less of a nerf to fighters. The second is the two classes that have mounted combat as part of the base classes design (Paladin and Cavalier) and are supposed to be superior to the Fighter in that regard do not get this benefit. The Paladin can survive with this nerf because it got boosted in some other ways. The Cavalier gets kicked in the crotch, though that class is largely disappointing anyway.