DEX for melee fighters

[Freespacer]

Hello everyone. Every RPG does have at least one class that excels in melee combat, and almost every RPG makes it so that this certain class tends to have high scores in STR and CON, and medium or even low in DEX.

I am not DEX fan, I just want to make things clear: is DEX not so useful in melee (like no matter how quick one can react to attack, he won't have enough physical strengh to move himself out of harm's way)?

P.S.: The question was raised when I attempted to exchange CON for DEX, so I can remove armor or make it irrelevant, and I ultimately failed. =)
Raising DEX for high INI seemes useless as well.

[Cranthis]

Go high Con, high Dex, and take weapon finesse and two weapon fighting chain.

Think of it like this. Would you rather your armor got hit, or that you dodge things entirely?

[White_Drake]

With the proper choices, you can make a superb Dex based "fighter" (the role, not the class). Shadow Hand, Weapon Finesse, and Spiked Chain all say hi. Although, with the proper building you can base your combat off of Cha, so perhaps the better answer would be that, no, by default most of the effective melee combat builds key off of Str.

[Freespacer]

As far as I know high focus on STR and CON is archetypical for melee fighters, I'm interested why DEX is left behind and remains sole expertise for ranged fighters.

[nedz]

Its not.
Dex based fighters are slightly harder to build, and you need some source of damage boost, but they are a lot more interesting than non dex ones IMHO. In fact, in 3.5, I rarely see the point of heavy or medium armour.
Str is good for damage, but dex can get you things like Combat Reflexes as well as AC.
Its Con which is less useful. This only gets you HP, and improves what is likely to be your best save anyway. It is better to do damage with an offensive build; next its better to not get hit in the first place; only finally is it better to care less about the damage.
There are exceptions, in that there are Con focussed builds, but on the whole Dex > Con

[Gwendol]

As far as I know high focus on STR and CON is archetypical for melee fighters, I'm interested why DEX is left behind and remains sole expertise for ranged fighters.

It isn't. Check out Jack B Quick for example.

[hoverfrog]

With the proper choices, you can make a superb Dex based "fighter" (the role, not the class). Shadow Hand, Weapon Finesse, and Spiked Chain all say hi. Although, with the proper building you can base your combat off of Cha, so perhaps the better answer would be that, no, by default most of the effective melee combat builds key off of Str.I have to ask. How do you build a charisma based fighter?

[ThiagoMartell]

I have to ask. How do you build a charisma based fighter?

Paladin levels. Cha to AC. Snowflake Wardance. Battledancer. Ascetic Mage. Kiloren. check the x to y thread and you will figure it out
.

[Gwendol]

Zhentarim fighter, or similar fear stacking build.

[nedz]

Also Marshal dip.

[White_Drake]

Pretty much what those guys said ^

[Diovid]

With the proper choices, you can make a superb Dex based "fighter" (the role, not the class).
The class can also be used for a dex-based build. Use the Hit-and-Run Fighter variant (Drow of the Underdark), possibly combined with the Sneak Attack variant (UA). Although one could debate whether this would still be the fighter class or not.

[Rejakor]

Hit and Run fighter (drow of the underdark) and Shadow Blade (tome of battle) both go leagues towards making dex-based fighters more playable.

That said, under Core etc, they basically aren't.

[Urpriest]

Actually, in most RPGs Dex or its equivalent are way more important than Str and the like, since it usually governs accuracy and defense. Really the only RPGs that use a Str attribute so ubiquitously in melee combat are D&D-derived.

[mcv]

Hello everyone. Every RPG does have at least one class that excels in melee combat, and almost every RPG makes it so that this certain class tends to have high scores in STR and CON, and medium or even low in DEX.

"Almost every RPG"? That sounds like you're talking about RPGs outside the D&D family. The D&D family is rather unique in that it uses STR for to-hit. Most other RPGs tend to use Dexterity, Agility or whatever they happen to call it, as the basis for melee attacks, and Strength only for the damage done. in GURPS it's not uncommon for melee fighters to have higher DX than ST.

To get around this and make Dex-based melee possible, 3rd edition D&D introduced Weapon Finesse. Before that, you simply had to have high STR.

[Psyren]

The two big problems with Dex fighters:

- Low damage per hit: when you're up against something with DR/high HP/both, landing every single blow is irrelevant if you're only scratching it with each one. While Strength builds get both attack and damage from their stat (and even get increased returns from 2-handers), dex-based melee needs bonus damage to compete.

- Dex becomes your achilles heel: because Dex forces you into lighter, less-protective armors (and in many cases, no shield) to get its full benefits, losing Dex for any reason can end up crippling you defensively - and in D&D, there are a lot of ways to lose Dex, many of which are available to monsters.

[Korivan]

Interestingly enough, many of my full platemail fighters tend to get a max dex bonus of +6, added with enchanted mail, tower shield, ring of protection, and few feats, AC gets stupid high.

But I like the idea an fast, agile, two handed fighter.

[Azoth]

Personally, I preffed the dex/con/wis based builds for my "fighter" types. Usually involves a swordsage dip, but then again, who doesn't want shadow blade on a dex build. Light armor for mobility, focus of stats that improve saves/vital skills, and still effective. Grab an unawakened sun blade from Expedition to Castle Raveloft with a str of 13 and enjoy both Shadow Blade and 2 handed power attack goodies. (Well while RAW DM's may say no to treating it as a shortsword for Shadow Blade while two handing for power attack...so YMMV)

I don't really like the iconic "Fighter" much. Big sword, clunky armor, bench pressing an anvil and chuckling at the scrawny guy. Much more fun to be the scrawny guy that moves effortlessly across the battle field carving enemies up and twarting casters spells with relative ease.

[Dayaz]

There's also the giggle factor of making a TWF Barbarian/Fighter build... Cuz, y'know, with the right feats you can have 2 1hand weapons in your hands and then rage/power attack for all those pretty numbers. And with a decent Dex, and funneling gold into the heavy armor, you can be pretty hard to hit with a ton of hp just from the dice :D

Admittedly, it works betting in Pathfinder because of the feat every odd level, but it's still doable in 3.5

[Morty]

D&D really hates dexterity-based melee fighters. If you want to make an effective one, you need to jump through various hoops. In core, it's pretty much impossible. Splatbooks help, especially ToB if you're willing to use it. Shadow Blade gives ou Dex to damage, but it narrows down your weapon selection considerably. I once made a fighter (using one of the myriad homebrew versions of the class) that used an Elven Courtblade and relied on Power Attack and Leap Attack for damage. I didn't get to try it out, though.

[Randomguy]

Swordsage and Rogue can both do really well with high dex, as well as tripper builds using combat reflexes, but in that case dex should still be lower than strength.

[Dr.Epic]

I am not DEX fan, I just want to make things clear: is DEX not so useful in melee (like no matter how quick one can react to attack, he won't have enough physical strengh to move himself out of harm's way)?.

:smallconfused:

That statement makes no sense. Speed isn't about physical strength, so why should strength play a factor in how fast you move? The two aren't related. Speed or dexterity is about movement. Strength is about power. It'd be like saying "It doesn't matter how high your charisma score is, you still won't have enough intelligence to roll a decent diplomacy check."

Back to the question, dex can be very useful in combat. Depending on the build, it can be far better than strength.

[Morcleon]

The two big problems with Dex fighters:

- Low damage per hit: when you're up against something with DR/high HP/both, landing every single blow is irrelevant if you're only scratching it with each one. While Strength builds get both attack and damage from their stat (and even get increased returns from 2-handers), dex-based melee needs bonus damage to compete.

- Dex becomes your achilles heel: because Dex forces you into lighter, less-protective armors (and in many cases, no shield) to get its full benefits, losing Dex for any reason can end up crippling you defensively - and in D&D, there are a lot of ways to lose Dex, many of which are available to monsters.

1. Most of the time, being able to get multiple stats to damage more than makes up for the lack of Str. Also, a significant amount of Dex-based builds are either swordsages (maneuver-based damage) or battlefield control (trip, disarm, AoO, etc...)

2. Stat-to-AC. Also, lighter armors can still be pretty good. Especially if you reverse-engineer the max Dex boost things from Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) or Armor of the Celestial Battalion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/armor.htm#armoroftheCelestialBattalion). Stick those on a mithril breastplate/fullplate, and you're set. :smallbiggrin: Also, most Dex-reducers are from touch attacks/spells. Which your Dex boost will help you avoid.

[nedz]

In 3.5 I've come to see heavy armour as a cleric thing and just not a viable fighter option. But then viable fighter options are like Hen's teeth.:smallamused:

[TuggyNE]

But then viable fighter options are like Hen's teeth.:smallamused:

Hard to find, superfluous, doesn't hurt much of anything, and easy to knock out? :smallamused:

[SowZ]

:smallconfused:

That statement makes no sense. Speed isn't about physical strength, so why should strength play a factor in how fast you move? The two aren't related. Speed or dexterity is about movement. Strength is about power. It'd be like saying "It doesn't matter how high your charisma score is, you still won't have enough intelligence to roll a decent diplomacy check."

Back to the question, dex can be very useful in combat. Depending on the build, it can be far better than strength.

Actually, speed is mostly about your strength. Technique is big, too, but bigger muscles and stronger lungs make faster runners. Moreso than agile, dextrous people, anyways. Who would win a sprint? A boxer or a piano player?

[ThiagoMartell]

Actually, speed is mostly about your strength. Technique is big, too, but bigger muscles and stronger lungs make faster runners. Moreso than agile, dextrous people, anyways. Who would win a sprint? A boxer or a piano player?

Who would in a spring, Usain Bolt or The Rock? :smallamused:

[Seharvepernfan]

*Running* speed involves muscular strength in the muscles that you use when running (mostly butt, thighs, abs, I believe), and your fast-twitch reflexes.

Generally, speed is a fusion of muscular strength and the efficiency of your nervous system. Usain Bolt would beat Dwayne in a race, but Usain is still a fairly strong dude.

There is somebody here on the forums who has a huge D&D fix in his signature, called the Gigas Codex (or something, I know Im close). In his fix, you use dex to hit, and strength for damage. I really, really wish that's how D&D worked. It makes so much more sense. Suddenly, big dumb ogres are atually clumsy when attacking, like they're supposed to be. And now fighters aren't hulking brutes by necessity, but more like real-life boxers/soldiers/martial artists (strong, but more based on "skill" than muscular strength). There is a good reason why the worlds' strongest men aren't its' best warriors (or its' best climbers/swimmers/jumpers, while we're at it).

Pathfinder makes fighters more dex-friendly, since we're talking about it. They can have skills near the same level as rangers/rogues/monks (when it comes to ranks), and they can use more of their dex while wearing armor.

[Psyren]

1. Most of the time, being able to get multiple stats to damage more than makes up for the lack of Str. Also, a significant amount of Dex-based builds are either swordsages (maneuver-based damage) or battlefield control (trip, disarm, AoO, etc...)

I was actually specifically referring to the Fighter class here (per the thread title), not melee in general. Other melee have specific class features that make the Dex-based path more rewarding; Dex Fighters meanwhile can get better at hitting but gain little else. Swordsages have their damage boosts, Rogues get sneak attack, and even Rangers get a little extra damage out of the favored enemy mechanic and the odd buff, but a Dex-Fighter will be hard-pressed to deal damage on par with a Str-Fighter.

[toapat]

Dex in melee is more viable then Str, at least outside of core. the only real problem is power attack being such a powerful and general use feat. the most obvious and significant problems though come from the limitations. you can only get a few specific weapons which get Dex to Damage, either the weak set of the shadow hand school, or rapiers (because of a specific magic weapon) and scimitars (through dervish).

Dex to damage is most viable with crossbows though, because crossbows qualify for recieving upto 2.5 times dex to damage, which is more then even strength with two hander weapons.

[SowZ]

Who would in a spring, Usain Bolt or The Rock? :smallamused:

Look at Bolt's legs and other muscle tone, man. http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2008/0808/360_fast_bolt_0821.jpg

Dude's super in shape. His type of strength is better suited to running than The Rock. But a ballerina is probably more dextrous than Bolt. They don't have the strength to beat Bolt in a race. Women probably have a little more agility than men in a lot of areas but are slower runners on average because of strength.

[Morty]

Dex in melee is more viable then Str, at least outside of core. the only real problem is power attack being such a powerful and general use feat. the most obvious and significant problems though come from the limitations. you can only get a few specific weapons which get Dex to Damage, either the weak set of the shadow hand school, or rapiers (because of a specific magic weapon) and scimitars (through dervish).


So Dexterity is more viable in melee except it can't deal nearly as much damage? :smalltongue:

[Morcleon]

So Dexterity is more viable in melee except it can't deal nearly as much damage? :smalltongue:

A properly built Dex build can actually deal more damage. Power Attack works pretty well if you get a spiked chain or elven courtblade. Both are finesse-able two-handed weapons. :smallbiggrin:

[toapat]

So Dexterity is more viable in melee except it can't deal nearly as much damage? :smalltongue:


A properly built Dex build can actually deal more damage. Power Attack works pretty well if you get a spiked chain or elven courtblade. Both are finesse-able two-handed weapons. :smallbiggrin:

actually, my point was that Dex is the better combat attribute, its just that getting Power Attack is a bit harder without sacrificing a bit.

Unless you migrate a PF weapon enhancement back to 3.5, then Court Blade/Spiked chain cant be run exclusively off dex

[Rejakor]

What is this rapier enchant? I've never heard of it before.

Dex requires more of an investment than strength. Strength also much much easier has access to power attack, and str-based special attacks (bull rush etc) lead into feats that improve power attack (combat brute, shock trooper).

Overall, the only thing in dexterity's favour in terms of melee fighting is that dex CAN (not will) scale better than armour. Honestly though, with exotic armours and feats that improve armour, armour can scale as well as dex if you're not starting as a +6 dex race.

And if you're really concerned with AC, a deepwarden/fist of the forest build gets a crapton of AC while naked, more than you would probably ever want or need.

So essentially, dex in melee is doable, but not optimal, compared to strength. It just loses out to how incredibly cheaply strength can give you decent damage.

That said I do love me some melee dex fighters. Mmm. Flashing blades and such.

[Morcleon]

actually, my point was that Dex is the better combat attribute, its just that getting Power Attack is a bit harder without sacrificing a bit.

Unless you migrate a PF weapon enhancement back to 3.5, then Court Blade/Spiked chain cant be run exclusively off dex

Which weapon enhancement? :smallconfused:

[Zdrak]

Who would in a spring, Usain Bolt or The Rock? :smallamused:

Bolt would win in a sprint, but The Rock would win in "I can hit faster than you can dodge."

[toapat]

What is this rapier enchant? I've never heard of it before.


Which weapon enhancement? :smallconfused:

PF's Agile enhancement, Arms and Equipment Guide's fierce enhancement costs you the ability to get dex to armor

[Morcleon]

PF's Agile enhancement, Arms and Equipment Guide's fierce enhancement costs you the ability to get dex to armor

Now that's pretty useful. Need to remember that for later... Although if you pick up the shadow blade feat, it gives you Dex to damage in addition to Str. :smallbiggrin:

[Rejakor]

Yeah, I can see why that isn't mentioned much. +2 for the ability to transfer dex from AC to damage? Pffffff.

Agile is typical of pathfinder. Instead of just making a second feat that adds dex to damage, or making it part of weapon finesse, instead they make it a weapon enchant.. pffff. I can't believe that after so many years of 3.5 they didn't get the lesson that different shouldn't mean weaker. You counterbalance the fact that dex gets added to AC by the fact that 2h weapons are still way better with str, finessable weapons are slightly suckier than non-finessable weapons, and it costs a feat to switch over. Dex to AC is already balanced by armours having a max dex, which makes stacking SAD dex not as attractive in the first place.

[Dayaz]

how does a crossbow get 2.5 damage from dex?

[toapat]

how does a crossbow get 2.5 damage from dex?

a number of feats for sneak attack. Crossbow Sniper and Dead Eye are the easy ones, the third im not sure about, but it appears to be a first level of Targetteer fighter

[Knaight]

"Almost every RPG"? That sounds like you're talking about RPGs outside the D&D family. The D&D family is rather unique in that it uses STR for to-hit. Most other RPGs tend to use Dexterity, Agility or whatever they happen to call it, as the basis for melee attacks, and Strength only for the damage done. in GURPS it's not uncommon for melee fighters to have higher DX than ST.
This also assumes that almost every RPG even has a concept like "melee fighters" as an assumed category, that they use attributes at all, and that something like "to-hit" is even coherent with the rest of their rules. I don't think this is the case.