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scurv
2012-11-05, 11:29 AM
Am I wrong to take it personal when players lie to me in the player to player sort of way in Roleplay heavy MMO servers?

Andreaz
2012-11-05, 11:33 AM
Am I wrong to take it personal when players lie to me in the player to player sort of way in Roleplay heavy MMO servers?You will have to be more specific than that.

Shir
2012-11-05, 12:25 PM
It depends. If you are angry at a character-to-character lie, you may be unjustified. If the rogue found the loot he has every right to pocket as much as he wants before presenting his find to the party for "equal" sharing even if OOC you know he cheated.

On the other hand, if a player is lying to you you may be justified on case-by-case basis. Sandbagging skills, talents, items is acceptable. Misrepresenting game states or out of game info is not.

scurv
2012-11-05, 03:38 PM
Player to player lie. There was nothing ic about it, Save the topic at hand

Iceforge
2012-11-05, 03:51 PM
again, please be more specific, you are being needlessly vague now, which makes it impossible for anyone to evaluate the situation in any way resembling objectively.

As a matter of fact, you being as vague as you are now, sort of makes me personally lean towards you probarly being in the wrong.

My experience tells me that when someone is being needlessly vague about a situation like this, it is because they are in the wrong, but want to deceive others into confirming that they are not in the wrong, a sort of powering a self-delusion

Kelb_Panthera
2012-11-05, 04:01 PM
Whether or not lying is wrong depends on too many factors to make a judgement without specifics.

Whether your anger is justified depends on who you're angry at and what the other person lied about.

All I can say without more info is that it's rarely unreasonable to be angry with yourself for not seeing through the lie sooner.

Andrewmoreton
2012-11-05, 04:32 PM
People lie to each other all the time . Thats life , live with it.
Lying in the context of a game is even more normal and in fact is often required for proper role playing. I lie to other players when ever necessary

Driderman
2012-11-05, 05:04 PM
This may come as a surprise to you but on the internet, people lie all the time.

Machinekng
2012-11-05, 05:59 PM
As a GM, I generally frown on player-to-player lying. It's one thing for a player to have a secret they want to protect (if they okay it with the GM first), but it's another thing lying about character stats or info.

Rule of Thumb: If the GM doesn't know about it, it doesn't exist.

Slipperychicken
2012-11-05, 06:04 PM
What did s/he lie about?

Dr.Epic
2012-11-05, 08:53 PM
This may come as a surprise to you but on the internet, people lie all the time.

That's a lie!!!

Slipperychicken
2012-11-05, 09:16 PM
That's a lie!!!

I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoNFdnxU6F8&t=0m51s)

[attempts to punch Dr. Epic... misses]

Dr.Epic
2012-11-05, 09:32 PM
I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoNFdnxU6F8&t=0m51s)

[attempts to punch Dr. Epic... misses]

This! Is! SPARTA! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BezQ6orIALk&feature=fvwrel)

See, I can link videos to youtube too!:smalltongue:

invinible
2012-11-05, 09:33 PM
You are definitely not in the wrong here as any out of character information reguarding a game that is being played by multiple people needs to be truthful told between players if it should be, have another player look for the information if it is meant to be found but not told, or be kept secret if meant to be discovered in game. Where as, lying about any of that information undermines the whole game.

Gamer Girl
2012-11-06, 01:01 AM
Well, you might be wrong.

If your coming from the idea that every RPG player is both a saint and angel so all game information should be shared openly in a big group hug, then yes you are wrong.

The reality is that not all players are good. So if you tell a player ''one billion dollars is in box seven'' then ask their character to pick a box in the game, at least half of the players will ''amazingly'' pick box seven.

The truth is that many players can separate game information from character information. And they only way to stop abuse and cheating, is not not tell or even lie to the players.

TuggyNE
2012-11-06, 02:39 AM
Well, you might be wrong.

If your coming from the idea that every RPG player is both a saint and angel so all game information should be shared openly in a big group hug, then yes you are wrong.

The reality is that not all players are good. So if you tell a player ''one billion dollars is in box seven'' then ask their character to pick a box in the game, at least half of the players will ''amazingly'' pick box seven.

The truth is that many players can separate game information from character information. And they only way to stop abuse and cheating, is not not tell or even lie to the players.

How does this (DMs concealing all possible out-of-game information because all players are cheaters*) relate in any way to player-to-player communication (dealing with others' deception for reasons unspecified)?

Really, though, it's impossible to tell from the OP's information whether he has unreasonable expectations or not; we need more details.

*The situation given is kind of a lousy one; there's no point in blatantly sharing all possible metagame information, certainly, but neither does that mean the DM should hoard every last datum that could in any way encourage out-of-character thinking for example, withholding HP figures for PCs, avoiding any and all monster descriptions, or not telling casters how big a room is so they're unable to strategize spell placement.

SowZ
2012-11-06, 02:59 AM
I run games where PvP, player secrets, and ulterior motives are all fair game so players telling mistruths to one another is totally cool. Misleading people OOC to avoid them getting meta-knowledge they can use in game against them is sporting.

For the game I am running right now AND for this group I am running, I have never run a campaign where at least one person hasn't betrayed the party, hehe. So manipulation is second nature.

Is what you are offended about normal for the group? It may be allowed in the social contract.

Gamer Girl
2012-11-06, 03:17 AM
How does this (DMs concealing all possible out-of-game information because all players are cheaters*) relate in any way to player-to-player communication (dealing with others' deception for reasons unspecified)?



It's the same. Say Bill has a werewolf character. The players know this, but the character's do not. You will still have the players that ''goof up'' either by mistake or on purpose and say he is a werewolf, though the character does not know. Worse can be the annoying whiny player that will just endlessly complain that they are not allowed to use what they know ("Hey he can turn into a wolf and track them, oops, oops, sorry I don't know that..hehe")

And it sucks all the mystery and fun out of role playing. if as a player, you are just blandly told all the details, then why even role play. It's much more fun when you learn Dark Lord is character A's father by playing the game, instead of just being told that with a ''oh, but remember your character's don't know, so just pretend like you don't know.''

And finally, lies are normal between people. It's not like the players swear to tell the truth. Most people lie about things. So why are gamers held to some high standard?

SowZ
2012-11-06, 03:35 AM
It's the same. Say Bill has a werewolf character. The players know this, but the character's do not. You will still have the players that ''goof up'' either by mistake or on purpose and say he is a werewolf, though the character does not know. Worse can be the annoying whiny player that will just endlessly complain that they are not allowed to use what they know ("Hey he can turn into a wolf and track them, oops, oops, sorry I don't know that..hehe")

And it sucks all the mystery and fun out of role playing. if as a player, you are just blandly told all the details, then why even role play. It's much more fun when you learn Dark Lord is character A's father by playing the game, instead of just being told that with a ''oh, but remember your character's don't know, so just pretend like you don't know.''

And finally, lies are normal between people. It's not like the players swear to tell the truth. Most people lie about things. So why are gamers held to some high standard?

Absolutely. In the last game I ran, Player A was a clone and knew it. One other member of the party was trying to find out all campaign if he was an original or a clone since it would greatly affect her decisions towards player A. Player A tried to confuse her both in and out of game to trip her up and keep her doubting both conclusions. Great fun had by both and all that sleuthing would have been much more empty if she, (the one detectiving,) knew out of character and had to go through the motions in character to confirm her OOC knowledge.

(PS. Don't you love it as a DM when you can be lazy since players will clash and just interact, coming up with more intriguing player/player interaction than you could come up with for them despite planning all week? I find allowing and sometimes encouraging ulterior motives and misleading info both OOC and iC increases the odds of this happening.)

Killer Angel
2012-11-06, 05:38 AM
As a GM, I generally frown on player-to-player lying. It's one thing for a player to have a secret they want to protect (if they okay it with the GM first), but it's another thing lying about character stats or info.

Well, we have seen many threads regarding rogue-type pretending to be paladins... this can require the player lying to the other players (also out of game) 'bout the character and its real skills, abilities, and so on.

scurv
2012-11-06, 05:54 AM
again, please be more specific, you are being needlessly vague now, which makes it impossible for anyone to evaluate the situation in any way resembling objectively.

As a matter of fact, you being as vague as you are now, sort of makes me personally lean towards you probarly being in the wrong.

My experience tells me that when someone is being needlessly vague about a situation like this, it is because they are in the wrong, but want to deceive others into confirming that they are not in the wrong, a sort of powering a self-delusion

Thank you for the call out there, It means alot.

But to make this a short story.

Player me
Player fib
Player Mom

Player me asked player fib if they knew what they were doing was not in accordiance with the established rules.

Player fib said rules were changed to permit what he was doing

Player mom Got back to me and said player fib does this and he is full of crap,

Sorry about the vagueness, I was on some pills and getting away from stupid.

But my simple question was
IF player fib lies to me, and I correct to feel upset, You seemed to have evaded that topic so what are you hideing?

<edit> A person could also have twenty years of experance in dealing with opsec matters and as a matter of habit does not give out potently compromising infrormation

TuggyNE
2012-11-06, 06:20 AM
Player me asked player fib if they knew what they were doing was not in accordiance with the established rules.

Player fib said rules were changed to permit what he was doing

OK, yeah, there's pretty clearly no excuse for attempting to evade rules by lying, whatever the proper role of deception in player-player relations may be.

Although I must say I'm a little puzzled that he would be lying to you, specifically, unless you have some kind of relevant authority.

hymer
2012-11-06, 06:27 AM
That's easy, tuggyne. You don't let the potential snitch think he's right in there being a reason to snitch. Or, less cynically, if someone points out you're wrong, you either comply with the rules or dispute that you're wrong. If you're cheating, disputation is the obvious way to go.

ReaderAt2046
2012-11-06, 08:41 AM
Thank you for the call out there, It means alot.

But to make this a short story.

Player me
Player fib
Player Mom

Player me asked player fib if they knew what they were doing was not in accordiance with the established rules.

Player fib said rules were changed to permit what he was doing

Player mom Got back to me and said player fib does this and he is full of crap,

Sorry about the vagueness, I was on some pills and getting away from stupid.

But my simple question was
IF player fib lies to me, and I correct to feel upset, You seemed to have evaded that topic so what are you hideing?

<edit> A person could also have twenty years of experance in dealing with opsec matters and as a matter of habit does not give out potently compromising infrormation

Yeah, I think we misunderstood. If he was lying about the rules then that's unacceptable. I thought he was hiding something from you because he was hiding it from your character.

Slipperychicken
2012-11-06, 08:53 AM
Yeah, I think we misunderstood. If he was lying about the rules then that's unacceptable.

Seconded. Lying about rules is immoral, and equivalent to cheating.

DontEatRawHagis
2012-11-06, 09:34 AM
If a player is lying for personal gain and does it a lot of the time he is cheat. Its alright to be upset about it. In MMO's I find it hard to not follow the rules. Especially with RP servers. I only was given a warning because I got bored one day and didn't do anything but quote Doctor Who.

Your just going to have to live with it I guess, RP groups in MMOs are hard to manage.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-11-06, 09:40 AM
Although I must say I'm a little puzzled that he would be lying to you, specifically, unless you have some kind of relevant authority.
Most likely, so that he wouldn't get reported. Players do have the authority to draw the attention of Mjolnor the Banhammer.

Gamer Girl
2012-11-06, 01:45 PM
But to make this a short story.

Does whatever game your playing have a GM or Judge or Whatever? Or is your game just a 'game of equal players'.

If your all just 'equal players', then any player can lie or cheat or steal or really do whatever they want. This is one of the big reasons why games have GMs.

If you game does have a GM, have you mentioned this to them?

Kelb_Panthera
2012-11-06, 02:39 PM
Seconded. Lying about rules is immoral, and equivalent to cheating.

Lying about the rules isn't equal to cheating. It is cheating.

Give the cheating bastard the boot. (I'm not sure if I mean that figuratively or not.)

Seriously, there was a time when cheaters were commonly shot when they got caught. I'm not saying we should go back to that (I think), but that's how unacceptable cheating is.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-11-06, 02:47 PM
Does whatever game your playing have a GM or Judge or Whatever? Or is your game just a 'game of equal players'.
It's an MMO with an RP server, so it has mods and admins, who are the authority structures.

If your all just 'equal players', then any player can lie or cheat or steal or really do whatever they want. This is one of the big reasons why games have GMs.
I actually disagree. Most GMless games out there only work when the players enforce an authority structure: they regulate one another. But that's a topic for another time and place.

Iceforge
2012-11-06, 05:43 PM
Thank you for the call out there, It means alot.

But to make this a short story.

Player me
Player fib
Player Mom

Player me asked player fib if they knew what they were doing was not in accordiance with the established rules.

Player fib said rules were changed to permit what he was doing

Player mom Got back to me and said player fib does this and he is full of crap,

Sorry about the vagueness, I was on some pills and getting away from stupid.

But my simple question was
IF player fib lies to me, and I correct to feel upset, You seemed to have evaded that topic so what are you hideing?

<edit> A person could also have twenty years of experance in dealing with opsec matters and as a matter of habit does not give out potently compromising infrormation

Hmm...

Kick him out of the game.

He is actively cheating and when called on it, he lies to make you think he isn't cheating, which is very bad.

Dont take it perssonal through, he is just don't have the morals to stick to the rules

Acanous
2012-11-09, 09:11 PM
Oh man, this brings back memories.
In the RP server of City of Heroes (Virtue) my character Acanous was decently well known as a background character. That is, he's available to anyone for interaction, and gets involved in whatever plots you've got going on by request, on either good or bad side so long as we can come to mutually agreeable terms as to why he's there.

So he actually got a lot of RP with a lot of different cliques.
Being his own party, he ended up privvy to a lot of otherwise restricted information, as well as the usual gossip. You know, who that mercenary Jackal was tracking, what sort of plots Asmodeus was actively pulling in hell (That is, stuff that could be traced to him and that the PCs were actually DOING, not the plots-within-plots that haven't been seen in-character), relations between supergroups and what the McGuffin of the week is, who is the Lady Gwendolynn's latest boytoy (The poor sod)...

Anyhow, he usually hung out in an interdimensional bar, making casual conversation, and talking about current events (When I wasn't off raiding).
Given that his info was usually correct and likewise that he was sort of a "Bridge" between RP circles on the server, people tended to take the things he'd say as OOC Canon, even though it was *Him saying it In Character, based on what he'd seen*.

There were several entire RP arcs that were changed because people thought the misinformation Ac thought was true, got taken as Word of God OOC canon, and would tell the other PLAYERS this.

There were at least two notable occasions where Ac blatantly lied to someone in-character, (Who didn't have the powers to tell he was lying) and their player took it as WoG Canon, which then changed a plot. In ONE of those cases, *I* even *Told* them OOC that he was lying (Nemesis Nanobots programmed to change heroines into lesbians to ensure fewer heroes procreate and pass on the mutant gene, so in five generations he can take over the world, if any of you were wondering) and it ended up being a real plot.

So really, if this server is anything like mine, your player may not KNOW he was lying, he's just passing on something he (Or someone else who told HIM) thought was Canon.
You've got two options at this point, roll with it or retcon.

Autolykos
2012-11-11, 10:09 AM
That still depends on context and what's normal in your group. True, cheating in roleplaying is usually not accepted, but I can imagine groups being fine with it in some contexts (it would integrate perfectly into a game of Paranoia, for example).
With some board games, cheating is just part of the game for some people (Backgammon comes to mind). You should just make sure beforehand that the other guy shares your view about it, or there *will* be trouble.

Jay R
2012-11-11, 10:59 AM
But to make this a short story.

Don't. Don't make it a short story.

Tel us the story.


Player me asked player fib if they knew what they were doing was not in accordiance with the established rules.

Player fib said rules were changed to permit what he was doing

Player mom Got back to me and said player fib does this and he is full of crap,

What did he actually say? And what evidence do you have that he is lying rather than really wrong about what the rules are?


Sorry about the vagueness, I was on some pills and getting away from stupid.

I understand, and sympathize, but we cannot give precise advice when we don't know the situation.


But my simple question was
IF player fib lies to me, and I correct to feel upset, You seemed to have evaded that topic so what are you hideing?

<edit> A person could also have twenty years of experance in dealing with opsec matters and as a matter of habit does not give out potently compromising infrormation

Nobody's hiding anything. Sometimes people lie in ways that the folks they lied to should be upset about.

Sometimes people lie as part of a game situation with hidden information.

Sometimes people say false things about the rules because they misread the rules and they are in good faith passing on their false beliefs.

We cannot tell which it is without the complete story. As long as you are the only one with the information, then you are the only one with the right to form an opinion, and we cannot justly advise you.

We're trying to answer your questions, but we can't do it without all the details.

In any event, I will not speak against the other player based on incomplete and one-sided information. You can't provide the other side, but you can at least provide all the information you do have.

TopCheese
2012-11-11, 11:16 AM
Seconded. Lying about rules is immoral, and equivalent to cheating.

Well in this case morals don't matter.

Lying about rules isn't so much immoral as it is unethical. Because someone is being unethical there is a problem not because he is being immoral.

Big difference actually.

Slipperychicken
2012-11-11, 01:42 PM
Lying about rules isn't so much immoral as it is unethical. Because someone is being unethical there is a problem not because he is being immoral.


What's the difference?


Definition of immoral
adjective
not conforming to accepted standards of morality:
an immoral and unwinnable war


Definition of unethical
adjective
not morally correct:
it is unethical to torment any creature for entertainment

As far as I can tell, the two are synonyms.

huttj509
2012-11-12, 12:18 AM
What's the difference?

As far as I can tell, the two are synonyms.

Doctor Ducky Mallard:"Well the ethical man knows he shouldn't cheat on his wife, whereas the moral man actually wouldn't."

hymer
2012-11-12, 07:32 AM
They're pretty close to being synonyms, and in casual conversation they are.
The difference is one of 'standards' you might say. Ethics is the study what is right and wrong, what an agent ('person') should and shouldn't do and to some degree why.
Morals is society's standards on what to do and not to.

Say, there's a red light at the crosswalk in the middle of the night, and you'd like to cross the road. There's nobody around. Now, most ethical systems will hold that you should defy the red light for your own benefit - nobody is in the least harmed, and you profit, so you should do it.

Moralistically speaking, though, you don't cross while the light is red. You just don't.

There's some overlap, though, just to make it confusing, especially if you introduce the notion of 'thresholds' into your ethical system. But this is getting needlessly philosophical. For most intents and purposes, treat moral and ethical as meaning the same thing: 'Right'.

TopCheese
2012-11-13, 09:59 AM
What's the difference?





As far as I can tell, the two are synonyms.

(On phone btw)

The difference between Morals and Ethics is one is an opinio.n and the other is a fact.

Morals are opinions and in the liar's opinion it is ok to lie. Lying to you or another person may be immoral but to the liar it is not.

However we have rules set in stone that are facts. These rules say what they say and can't be changed unless you pick a new set of rules (which then become facts). It is unethical to lie about the rules because it isn't an opinion on what the rules say.

If the rules are...

"You can only use a standard action to hide" and the liar says he can hide with a move action then he is being unethical. To you he is being immoral by lying but to him he isn't being immoral. The problem with lying about rules is an ethical problem not a moral problem because the moral implementation doesn't come into play.

I could explain more but ...

Actually with the red light idea..

Following the rules is the ethical thing to do. Not walking across the street during the red light is ethical. There is no moral decision unless you think you are going to one of the layers of hell for crossing while the light is red.

Again ethics are rules (think Law/Chaos or Ethical/Unethical)
Morals are beliefs/opinions (think Good/Evil).

Sociopaths don't have morals but they usually always have ethics. Spciopaths tend to be LN, NN, or CN on the alignment scale.

Morals and Ethics are only close in the same way as Good/Evil and Law/Chaos is... Which is to say they are simular but not really.

hymer
2012-11-13, 10:24 AM
@ TopCheese: I stand by my definition, as it was taught to me.

Ethics are hotly debated, and certainly not facts. They are opinion as much as society's standards are.
Dragging the rather poorly defined alignment rules into this doesn't help, and adding mental conditions such as sociopathy on top of that just takes a bad idea and runs with it.
Alignment is supposed to help define a character in a roleplaying game. It does poorly in describing the indredibly complex and contradictory nature of real people.

Diarmuid
2012-11-13, 04:37 PM
I think the part of this that most people are missing is that this was listed as having happened in a MMO on an RP heavy server.

Now, the only "rules" I know of in MMO's are the ones coded into the game and I dont see these players subverting the "rules" of the game.

What I'm more guessing is at play here are player driven "best practices" around how to handle certain situations in the game that might otherwise be OOC in as close to an IC manner as possible to maintain the "heavy RP" aspect of the game. (Could be something to do with looting, or what spells/abilities/etc are acceptable).

In this case, there are no actual rules, just a bit of a gentleman's agreement (yes the term is sexist, but it's meaning is understood) on how people should act. Lying about that is still lying however, and while sure...you can get mad about it you really dont have any recourse in the matter other than to stop interacting with that person if you feel this offense is unforgivable.

If you're not willing to go that far about it, it's probably not that big a deal and you should probably just move past it.