Woundhealer, Book of Swords

[Uhtred]

So I'm running an off-the-wall campaign that contains elements from all of my favorite fantasy/high fantasy/epic fantasy genre stories and woven them into a world.
And in that world, there are twelve Swords, capital S, forged by the gods, empowered with their divine energy, and sent down to mortals to see what would happen, stolen directly from the Book of Swords series.
My players are currently pursuing Woundhealer, a sword that cannot deal lethal damage, but that will heal any wound. It will regenerate lost limbs, restore sight to the blind, etc., and will also restore someone who dies from their injuries to life. If I recall the series correctly, it was used to keep someone alive when vastly outmatched by plunging it through their heart, which not only didn't kill them, but had the added effect of also healing any injury the impaled fellow possessed. It was ingenious.
In my campaign, an Orc chieftain dying from a mortal wound impaled himself, and has become unbeatable in battle. Since he cannot be dealt damage by spell or weapon, obviously the trick is to pull Woundhealer out of him and THEN kill him.
So how would you go about removing a weapon (in this case, a divinely powered bastard sword that has healed the entrance and exit wounds it caused) from a person? Is it a disarm check? A straight strength check? A touch attack vs. the Sword's AC? The sword weighs more than the 5lbs allowed by Mage Hand, and the party Mage hasn't taken Telekinesis, so at least that's out. The Orc is a Barbarian 4/War Chief 8, who is based on movement and speed, with a Greataxe.

[Asta Kask]

So I'm running an off-the-wall campaign that contains elements from all of my favorite fantasy/high fantasy/epic fantasy genre stories and woven them into a world.
And in that world, there are twelve Swords, capital S, forged by the gods, empowered with their divine energy, and sent down to mortals to see what would happen, stolen directly from the Book of Swords series.
My players are currently pursuing Woundhealer, a sword that cannot deal lethal damage, but that will heal any wound. It will regenerate lost limbs, restore sight to the blind, etc., and will also restore someone who dies from their injuries to life. If I recall the series correctly, it was used to keep someone alive when vastly outmatched by plunging it through their heart, which not only didn't kill them, but had the added effect of also healing any injury the impaled fellow possessed. It was ingenious.
In my campaign, an Orc chieftain dying from a mortal wound impaled himself, and has become unbeatable in battle. Since he cannot be dealt damage by spell or weapon, obviously the trick is to pull Woundhealer out of him and THEN kill him.
So how would you go about removing a weapon (in this case, a divinely powered bastard sword that has healed the entrance and exit wounds it caused) from a person? Is it a disarm check? A straight strength check? A touch attack vs. the Sword's AC? The sword weighs more than the 5lbs allowed by Mage Hand, and the party Mage hasn't taken Telekinesis, so at least that's out. The Orc is a Barbarian 4/War Chief 8, who is based on movement and speed, with a Greataxe.

Grapple him, tie him up and thirst him to death. Or choke him. Then remove the sword with surgery.

[Lapak]

Well, first part of the answer is "you don't, if the guy it's stuck through is upright and resisting you." So I'd set some limitations:

- if you're successfully Grappling him, you can attempt to remove it. This requires winning the Grapple check at a penalty and then making a Strength check. The Strength and Grapple checks have an interlinked 10-point penalty - you can take -10 on the Grapple check and use the base DC of the strength check, or take -6 on your Grapple and the DC of the strength check goes up by 4, or -3 Grapple / + 7 DC, etc.

- if you're successfully Pinning him, someone else can make the Strength check at the base DC.

- if you manage to try it unobserved, you can try the Strength check at no penalty following a successful attack against his Touch AC (without Dex bonus) - for example, if you surprise him from Hiding or sneak up on him successfully while Invisible.

The Grapples presumably aren't going to be easy against an armed Orc Barbarian if he's built along the lines I expect, but it doesn't sound like something that SHOULD be easy.

[Coidzor]

Flesh to Stone. Transmute Rock to Mud. Purify Food and Drink.

But that's just cruel. And denies you his loot.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Who needs blastomancy? Slay Living. Done.

[Lapak]

Flesh to Stone. Transmute Rock to Mud. Purify Food and Drink.

But that's just cruel. And denies you his loot.


Who needs blastomancy? Slay Living. Done.Depending on how true-to-book we're talking, neither of these would work. Woundhealer is a panacea capable of undoing everything harmful that can happen to you. As with many of the Swords, this divine power overrides everything; a guy with Woundhealer through the heart would be un-transmuted before the spell even finished taking effect and brush off a Slay Living like a spring breeze. In the source material, nothing overrides a Sword in its area of power except another Sword, and even that has a hierarchy to it - with Woundhealer pretty firmly near or at the top when it comes to 'can the bearer be physically altered or harmed.'

Again, thinking of the source material, your best bet is mental interference. I can't think of anything that would suggest Woundhealer would protect you from the Mindsword, say, or Soulcutter. So the party's best bet would probably be to hit the orc with a Will effect - Dominate, Suggestion, or some such - and convince him that it's in his best interest to dislodge the blade himself.

[Andezzar]

Dominate person (or Monster just to be sure): Give me that sword.

[Toliudar]

Grappling or a very good sleight of hand roll should do it, IMO.

[Coidzor]

Depending on how true-to-book we're talking, neither of these would work. Woundhealer is a panacea capable of undoing everything harmful that can happen to you.

If that's the case then why would mind control work? :smalltongue:

[Lapak]

If that's the case then why would mind control work? :smalltongue:Because most of the Swords have a built-in limit to what they can do, and Woundhealer is primarily concerned with physical harm. It can heal a literal broken heart, but not a metaphorical one. :smallbiggrin:

So I'd assume that it leaves the 'bearer' vulnerable to mental control.

[Rejakor]

A touch attack followed by a strength check.

Or you could grapple/pin him to avoid the touch attack.

Or make an epic Sleight of Hand roll. 'whoops, stole your embedded sword'

You don't want to turn this into a 15 round push and pull rollfest. You ideally want the paladin or whomever to be able to whip the sword out of the guys chest, and then behead him with the holy avenger in his other hand.

Make the hard part actually REACHING the guy.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This is falling into the "read the GM's mind" trap.

You have exactly one way for them to beat him. And they might ignore it entirely. They might wrack their brains and ask for every little terrain detail to see if they can kill him with the environment, but it might never cross their mind to try and grab the sword. Especially if you do what the guy above me suggests and make it really hard to reach him.

[Douglas]

If that's the case then why would mind control work? :smalltongue:
It wouldn't. In one of the later books, the mental domination of the Mindsword is removed by Woundhealer.

[Coidzor]

Sounds like you're better off rethinking things then.

[awa]

in the last book if i recall correctly it made the wielder who also had it impaled through his chest immune to soul cutter

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know, legends speak of a god who transgressed so horridly that he was chained to a mountain and let the carrion feeders feast upon him daily. He was a god, thus immortal, and could not die. But that did not mean he could not feel pain. An eternity of being eaten alive...

There are things worse than death. Much worse. And with things like Bigby's Clenching Fist, it's all too easy to subdue him.

So now you have a sword impaled into you. Congratulations. It would make a fine piton, wouldn't you say? Leave you literally hanging by your own entrails for all of eternity...

[Spuddles]

You know, legends speak of a god who transgressed so horridly that he was chained to a mountain and let the carrion feeders feast upon him daily. He was a god, thus immortal, and could not die. But that did not mean he could not feel pain. An eternity of being eaten alive...

There are things worse than death. Much worse. And with things like Bigby's Clenching Fist, it's all too easy to subdue him.

So now you have a sword impaled into you. Congratulations. It would make a fine piton, wouldn't you say? Leave you literally hanging by your own entrails for all of eternity...

Crushing Hand, a 9th level spell, and the fist is targetable with weapons. It does get a pretty good grapple check, though. Of course, grapple is easy enough to foil with a measily 4th level spell.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Crushing Hand, a 9th level spell, and the fist is targetable with weapons. It does get a pretty good grapple check, though. Of course, grapple is easy enough to foil with a measily 4th level spell.

Animate Rope is a good 1st level spell that should subdue our wayward orc. Grease can at least knock him prone.

Heck, mire him down in Rock to Mud, then when he's waist deep, reverse it back. Now he's stuck waist-deep in solid rock. At that point, you don't need to kill him. Just leave him there to not rot for all of eternity.

Besides, it doesn't much sound like an orcish barbarian is going to have access to Freedom of Movement, so your argument is moot.

[Uhtred]

Well, first part of the answer is "you don't, if the guy it's stuck through is upright and resisting you." So I'd set some limitations:

- if you're successfully Grappling him, you can attempt to remove it. This requires winning the Grapple check at a penalty and then making a Strength check. The Strength and Grapple checks have an interlinked 10-point penalty - you can take -10 on the Grapple check and use the base DC of the strength check, or take -6 on your Grapple and the DC of the strength check goes up by 4, or -3 Grapple / + 7 DC, etc.

- if you're successfully Pinning him, someone else can make the Strength check at the base DC.

- if you manage to try it unobserved, you can try the Strength check at no penalty following a successful attack against his Touch AC (without Dex bonus) - for example, if you surprise him from Hiding or sneak up on him successfully while Invisible.

The Grapples presumably aren't going to be easy against an armed Orc Barbarian if he's built along the lines I expect, but it doesn't sound like something that SHOULD be easy.

This was incredibly helpful. The mechanics of removing a sword from another person are what I was looking for, I'm just not sure what the base Strength DC is. Or what the Sleight of Hand would be. I am, however, picturing a fun scenario where the Goliath Reaping Mauler grapples the Orc and the Righteous Might-empowered Dwarven Cleric hauls the sword out and smites him with the hammer in his other hand. I'd allow the moment of epic to occur. But no, getting to the Orc will not be easy (he does have a mid-size tribe, all of whom will be affected by Tribal Frenzy) and he himself will be no pushover. The PC's are all level 9, so giving him a few levels on them and giving him a mob should even the field some.


Depending on how true-to-book we're talking, neither of these would work. Woundhealer is a panacea capable of undoing everything harmful that can happen to you. As with many of the Swords, this divine power overrides everything; a guy with Woundhealer through the heart would be un-transmuted before the spell even finished taking effect and brush off a Slay Living like a spring breeze. In the source material, nothing overrides a Sword in its area of power except another Sword, and even that has a hierarchy to it - with Woundhealer pretty firmly near or at the top when it comes to 'can the bearer be physically altered or harmed.'

Again, thinking of the source material, your best bet is mental interference. I can't think of anything that would suggest Woundhealer would protect you from the Mindsword, say, or Soulcutter. So the party's best bet would probably be to hit the orc with a Will effect - Dominate, Suggestion, or some such - and convince him that it's in his best interest to dislodge the blade himself.

I'm relatively true to source, except that the swords are powered by the PHB deities. Since Pelor provides Woundhealer's effects, and he's the god of healing, cleansing, and light, among other things, I'd say he would protect vs. mental effects, too, which is good news for him, bad news for the Gnome Illusionist in the party, and worse news for the Orc's mooks, who have no such protection and relatively low will saves.


This is falling into the "read the GM's mind" trap.

You have exactly one way for them to beat him. And they might ignore it entirely. They might wrack their brains and ask for every little terrain detail to see if they can kill him with the environment, but it might never cross their mind to try and grab the sword. Especially if you do what the guy above me suggests and make it really hard to reach him.

The thing of it is "Know thy players," and one of my players is ALWAYS trying/succeeding at disarming monsters and NPC's, so he will pretty much jump out of his pants suggesting to everyone that they yank that sword out.


Animate Rope is a good 1st level spell that should subdue our wayward orc. Grease can at least knock him prone.

Heck, mire him down in Rock to Mud, then when he's waist deep, reverse it back. Now he's stuck waist-deep in solid rock. At that point, you don't need to kill him. Just leave him there to not rot for all of eternity.

Besides, it doesn't much sound like an orcish barbarian is going to have access to Freedom of Movement, so your argument is moot.

The PC's are lvl 9, and the arcane spellcasters are both sorcerers, one illusion-focused and the other fire evocation-focused, so unless they stock up on scrolls before the encounter and have those specific scrolls, none of these spells are on the table. I really should be keeping up with their spell lists.

[Spuddles]

Animate Rope is a good 1st level spell that should subdue our wayward orc. Grease can at least knock him prone.

Heck, mire him down in Rock to Mud, then when he's waist deep, reverse it back. Now he's stuck waist-deep in solid rock. At that point, you don't need to kill him. Just leave him there to not rot for all of eternity.

Just Plane Shift him to somewhere he can't get back from. Like a demiplane of eternal pain.

Or maybe every other day, cast an extend persist otto's irresistable dance on him. Take him to all your wizard parties on your greater tenser's disk.


Besides, it doesn't much sound like an orcish barbarian is going to have access to Freedom of Movement, so your argument is moot.

Rings, friends, cohorts....

I imagine an immortal orc with enough insight to make himself immortal has gained/will gain a lot of xp and loot pretty damn fast.

[Lapak]

This was incredibly helpful. The mechanics of removing a sword from another person are what I was looking for, I'm just not sure what the base Strength DC is. Or what the Sleight of Hand would be. I am, however, picturing a fun scenario where the Goliath Reaping Mauler grapples the Orc and the Righteous Might-empowered Dwarven Cleric hauls the sword out and smites him with the hammer in his other hand. I'd allow the moment of epic to occur. But no, getting to the Orc will not be easy (he does have a mid-size tribe, all of whom will be affected by Tribal Frenzy) and he himself will be no pushover. The PC's are all level 9, so giving him a few levels on them and giving him a mob should even the field some.Well, what you want to use (for gaming purposes) depends on the typical level of power in your world. Figure what kind of STR modifier are level 9 characters usually walking around with, and go from there.

Out of context, though, I'd put 'pulling out an embedded object that on the one hand is sharp but on the other hand instantly heals wounds and thus fights you the whole way out' somewhere in the 15-25 range. Split the difference, call it 20. Pretty much anyone could extract it given time and leverage; for anyone but the very strong it would be quite an effort and take a couple of minutes of persistent effort; if he's actively fighting you at the time it's near-impossible. Going with the 10-point penalty will make it very, very hard for all but the most superhumanly strong to pull it out, so just one opponent would have to tank their Grapple check to have a decent shot. But a properly-buffed sneaky time might get lucky, or a REALLY strong melee opponent might manage it with a buff or three, or a pair of quite strong opponents might pull it off in tandem.

EDIT: Obviously both here and in the original post I am seat-of-the-pants houseruling, and you may need to play with the numbers for your own campaign.