build a martial sorcerer (3.5)

[lunar2]

i had an idea that i think would be interesting. what if there was a sorcerer that didn't realize they were a sorcerer, but thought that they were some kind of warrior?

they cast long duration and/or persisted buffs at the beginning of the day in a warmup/stretch routine that is actually a string of spells being cast. other than that, they cast no spells during the day except renewing their buffs (by stretching again, of course).

so, rules of the build:

every spell cast must be a self buff with either hour/level duration (or better) or persisted.

all WOTC 3.5 material that is not setting specific is available. no 3.0, pathfinder, dragon magazine, etc.

and remember that this sorcerer doesn't know that they are a sorcerer. they think they are some kind of martial character. so no membership in casting organizations, no obviously magical effects like fire shield, etc. the guy must reasonably believe that exercise and stretching are the reason he's so strong/fast/tough/etc.

[Flickerdart]

Seems like Cleric would work better for this, but Spelldancer would also work (since you dance to apply metamagics - including Persist - to your spells).

[Zdrak]

You could also allow spells with a casting time of swift/immediate action, eg. Wraithstrike or Nerveskitter. These can be fluffed as a brief burst of power or speed.

Edit: what about spell components? Is he allowed to eat or otherwise destroy a piece of cured leather (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageArmor.htm) as part of his exercise, or does he have to take Eschew Materials?

[Flickerdart]

Every day, he flexes so hard that his leather shirt bursts, of course.

[lunar2]

i know cleric is better mechanically for self buffing, but sorcerer fluff fits better.

clerics have to pray to something to get their power. it is an inherently conscious process. sorcerers, on the other hand, are born with their power, and could, at least in theory, never even realize they have casted a spell. i guess the same could be said of favored souls, so favored soul could be used instead of sorcerer for the base class. i could just see a trickster god like olidammara not telling their favored souls what's going on.

@material components. if it's something small that could be eaten, or something that could be incorporated into an exercise routine, sure. otherwise, i'd say stick with eschew materials.

one other consideration. if needed, the sorcerer could take spells known off other lists, but i'd like to avoid that as much as possible.

[Zdrak]

DM permitting, combine the Battle Sorcerer and Stalward Sorcerer variants. You get a martial weapon, light armor, 3/4 BAB instead of 1/2 BAB, d8 hitdie instead of d4. Admittedly, you lose some spellcasting, but hey, nobody's perfect.

Spell selection:
Level 1: Nerveskitter (a brief burst of speed)
Level 3: Add Cause Fear (somatic component: swing weapon menacingly; verbal component: scream 'by the power of Greyskull, I will destroy you!')
Level 4: Add Touch of Idiocy (somatic component: swing your weapon in a striking motion toward the target's head)

and so on

[Axier]

DM permitting, combine the Battle Sorcerer and Stalward Sorcerer variants. You get a martial weapon, light armor, 3/4 BAB instead of 1/2 BAB, d8 hitdie instead of d4. Admittedly, you lose some spellcasting, but hey, nobody's perfect.

Spell selection:
Level 1: Nerveskitter (a brief burst of speed)
Level 3: Add Cause Fear (somatic component: swing weapon menacingly; verbal component: scream 'by the power of Greyskull, I will destroy you!')
Level 4: Add Touch of Idiocy (somatic component: swing your weapon in a striking motion toward the target's head)

and so on

This, also check out reserve spell feats in Complete MagE? (Its either CM or Complete Arcane), its the simple things that can help out with small spell lists.

[nedz]

Played something very similar.

All spells are personal, even if not.
All spells involve modifying the character, though that can include breath weapon type spells.
No material components.

I conceived of the idea as a kind of faux warlock, sans blast.
Eschew materials is a must, obviously.

Unfortunately, there are not enough spells which fit so I added t-k like spells.
Mage Hand, Battering Ram (re-fluffed as a fist), etc.

Its hard to do the long duration at 1st level, but that wasn't part of my plan anyway.

[lunar2]

DM permitting, combine the Battle Sorcerer and Stalward Sorcerer variants. You get a martial weapon, light armor, 3/4 BAB instead of 1/2 BAB, d8 hitdie instead of d4. Admittedly, you lose some spellcasting, but hey, nobody's perfect.

Spell selection:
Level 1: Nerveskitter (a brief burst of speed)
Level 3: Add Cause Fear (somatic component: swing weapon menacingly; verbal component: scream 'by the power of Greyskull, I will destroy you!')
Level 4: Add Touch of Idiocy (somatic component: swing your weapon in a striking motion toward the target's head)

and so on

you do realize that right there in the op it says that all spells are self buffs? no cause fear, no touch of idiocy.

[Urpriest]

The Illumian Sigil that gets you bonus spells based on Str would go great with this thematically.

[BowStreetRunner]

Why limit yourself to long-duration buffs? Similar to how the martial adepts from Tome of Battle utilize maneuvers during battle to achieve extraordinary and supernatural effects, you could rationalize the verbal and somatic components of certain spells as martial forms and focusing techniques.

Just glancing briefly at the 1st level sorcerer spells from the SRD, you could make a case for spells like True Strike, Hypnotism, Cause Fear, Expeditious Retreat, Jump, or Magic Weapon in this manner. Otherwise you are pretty limited until you get up to higher levels.

[Zdrak]

you do realize that right there in the op it says that all spells are self buffs? no cause fear, no touch of idiocy.'tis but an unneeded limitation you are inflicting on yourself.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

i had an idea that i think would be interesting. what if there was a sorcerer that didn't realize they were a sorcerer, but thought that they were some kind of warrior?

they cast long duration and/or persisted buffs at the beginning of the day in a warmup/stretch routine that is actually a string of spells being cast. other than that, they cast no spells during the day except renewing their buffs (by stretching again, of course).

so, rules of the build:

every spell cast must be a self buff with either hour/level duration (or better) or persisted.

all WOTC 3.5 material that is not setting specific is available. no 3.0, pathfinder, dragon magazine, etc.

and remember that this sorcerer doesn't know that they are a sorcerer. they think they are some kind of martial character. so no membership in casting organizations, no obviously magical effects like fire shield, etc. the guy must reasonably believe that exercise and stretching are the reason he's so strong/fast/tough/etc.

Abjurant Champion allows you to cast Abjuration spells (like Shield) as a Swift action for free. A quick cracking of the knuckles in preparation for a good ol' brawl, and you're good to go.

Pal2/Sorc4/SpellSword1/AbChamp5 is the generally suggested route for this routine. You lose two caster levels, but you net your casting stat to all saves. SpellSword even gives you ASF reduction, so you really CAN wear, for example, a Mithral Chain Shirt at no ASF.

[Grendus]

Standard Sorcadin, as Shneeky suggested, would probably work best if it's a higher level character. Unfortunately, it doesn't really take off until level 6 or so, which hurts at low levels (or in an E6 type campaign). The Magus from Pathfinder sounds a lot like what you want, just take the Bard's spells known instead of the Magus's spellbook (it's a nerf, hopefully your DM won't complain). Pick Magus Arcana and spells that aren't visibly magical and you're set.

[Bladesinger]

How about Favored Soul? You could be the chosen of someone like Kord, and not even know it. You even gain Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization as part of the class. And It's spontaneous, like Sorcerer, so it works just as well, if not better, since the Cleric spell list is so much more subtle and can be used in armor, which I suppose he'd be wearing if he thinks he's a warrior.

Edit: Somehow missed that this was mentioned. Ninja'ed terribly. Sorry about that

[Metahuman1]

Wasn't there a feat or something that worked pretty much exactly like Stalward Sorcerer floating around somewhere that stacked with Stalward Sorcerer? Could be useful for this.

[nedz]

Battlecaster CArc

[Dr.Epic]

and remember that this sorcerer doesn't know that they are a sorcerer. they think they are some kind of martial character. so no membership in casting organizations, no obviously magical effects like fire shield, etc. the guy must reasonably believe that exercise and stretching are the reason he's so strong/fast/tough/etc.

Well, they're gonna have to have an int and wis no higher than 5 because how can a person go about casting spells and not realize they're a sorcerer?

[nedz]

Well, they're gonna have to have an int and wis no higher than 5 because how can a person go about casting spells and not realize they're a sorcerer?

Its just a facet of their personality. In a world with lots of Sp, Su and even Ex powers which duplicate spells it need not be obvious.

[dascarletm]

I knew a guy who did similar. He was a battle sorcerer and hid that he was a sorcerer from the entire party for a long time. We didn't think about it really. He would "buff" by prepping before a fight, had a different stretch a different spell that only him and the DM knew about. He would also do other things, and would describe them as non-spell similar actions. The other person in the group with spellcraft found out and didn't let the rest of us in on it. It was really epic at the end when we found out.:smalltongue:

[Dr.Epic]

Its just a facet of their personality. In a world with lots of Sp, Su and even Ex powers which duplicate spells it need not be obvious.

I think it would become pretty obvious that they're the only person of their race that can do these things...except for people belonging to the wizard or sorcerer class. You'd have to be pretty ignoramt not to realize the things you can do are not common.

[dascarletm]

I think it would become pretty obvious that they're the only person of their race that can do these things...except for people belonging to the wizard or sorcerer class. You'd have to be pretty ignoramt not to realize the things you can do are not common.

That could be campaign dependent. I've been in lots of games where we fight only pretty much monsters or mundane characters. I'll be the only class of mine I see adventure. Could be that he doesn't see many other character classes of his type around. Also it could be in their world somatic components arn't entirely universal.

For some spells it'd make sense that he's just gifted in attacking and running fast (Haste) and maybe an attack will bounce off him, but he might just remember from the heat of battle that in fact he did deflect that arrow with his sword.


Also, OP, you should really consider spells like Haste. If you only cast it on yourself, it'd just be like you had an "adrenaline boost." It is hard to find low level spells that last all day which are not apparently magical.

[Grendus]

How do you feel about psionics? A Psi war or Ardent would work well, solid buffs, 3/4 BAB, good hit dice. They also have no verbal or somatic components to their "spells", which would make it easier to justify it being unknown to the caster.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take Ancestral Relic (BoED) and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224), you can put whatever spells you want on it and even switch what spells it has, designate spell uses/day from 1-3 depending on need/cost, etc. If the party would sell junk loot (orc weapons and armor, etc.) for half value you can buy that stuff from the party pool for that price, get a portion of that cost back when cash is split, and sacrifice the full value of those items into your relic to upgrade it for less than half price. Yes it absolutely works exactly like that.

Use Stalwart Sorcerer (CM) + Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer), which gets 3/4 BAB, 1d8+2 base HP/level, proficiency in any one light or one-handed martial weapon (armor spikes), proficiency plus weapon focus in any one martial weapon (preferably a bludgeoning reach weapon), proficiency and casting in light armor, and Intimidate instead of Bluff as a class skill. In exchange for that, you'll have few spells/day and significantly fewer spells known. Note that clever arrangement of the spells known drawbacks of those two variants will completely negate the Stalwart Sorcerer penalty. Most DMs wouldn't allow that, so applying both sets of drawbacks in the most fair (i.e. unfavorable) order will give you the following spells/day and spells known:

Spells per day Spells known
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 4 2 - - - - - - - - 1 2 1 - - - - - - - -
2 5 3 - - - - - - - - 2 3 1 - - - - - - - -
3 5 4 - - - - - - - - 3 4 1 - - - - - - - -
4 5 5 2 - - - - - - - 4 5 1 1 - - - - - - -
5 5 5 3 - - - - - - - 5 5 2 1 - - - - - - -
6 5 5 4 2 - - - - - - 6 6 2 1 1 - - - - - -
7 5 5 5 3 - - - - - - 7 6 4 1 1 - - - - - -
8 5 5 5 4 2 - - - - - 8 7 4 1 1 1 - - - - -
9 5 5 5 5 3 - - - - - 9 7 4 3 1 1 - - - - -
10 5 5 5 5 4 2 - - - - 10 8 4 3 1 1 1 - - - -
11 5 5 5 5 5 3 - - - - 11 8 4 4 3 1 1 - - - -
12 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - - - 12 8 4 4 3 1 1 1 - - -
13 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - - - 13 8 4 4 3 3 1 1 - - -
14 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - - 14 8 4 4 3 3 1 1 1 - -
15 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - - 15 8 4 4 3 3 3 1 1 - -
16 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - 16 8 4 4 3 3 3 1 1 1 -
17 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - 17 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 -
18 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 18 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1
19 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 19 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 1
20 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 20 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1

I'd go with an Illumian (Naenhoon), use two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (also here (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30)), get Draconic Heritage, Spell Focus: Transmutation, Ability Enhancer, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Practical Metamagic: Persistent Spell, Metamagic School Focus: Transmutation, Arcane Strike, Etc. Dip at least one level of Sacred Exorcist (4 is a sweet spot for both BAB and fulfilling its own spellcasting prerequisite) and get a Night Stick (LM). You can use Persistent Spell as a +5 metamagic, or +4 3/day on Transmutations, or for a cost of five turn attempts twice/day.

Ability Enhancer from Dragon Compendium is a bit tricky. It states that, "Any transmutation spell you cast that enhances ability scores increases the ability scores by +2 more than it normally does." It does not specify that it's limited to spells which grant an enhancement bonus, though the wording 'enhances' would definitely imply that. RAW it could be applied to any transmutation spell that causes any increase at all to ability scores, but it's ultimately up to your DM. Being in Dragon Compendium it may not even be allowed in many games, but without this it's probably not worth spending the feats on Spell Focus: Transmutation and Metamagic School Focus.

Draconic Polymorph is a 5th level Transmutation in the Draconomicon. It works like Polymorph, but increases your assumed form's Strength by +8 and Con by +2, and its range is Personal so you can Persist it from a 9th level spell slot or spend turn attempts on it. With a favorable Ability Enhancer ruling it would instead grant Str +10 and Con +4, which are untyped bonuses. You can Draconic Polymorph into yourself for those bonuses (Polymorph is based on Alter Self which specifically allows taking the form of yourself), or take the form of something like a War Troll for Str 41, Dex 16, Con 33, +14 natural armor, and its Dazing Blow ability.

Bite of the Werebear is a 7th level Transmutation in Spell Compendium. It gives Enhancement bonuses of Str +16, Dex +2, Con +8, and +7 natural armor, so with Ability Enhancer that would be Str +18, Dex +4, Con +10. It also gives you Blind-Fight and Power Attack for its duration, and you grow claw and bite attacks. Its range is personal, so you can spend turn attempts with Naenhoon to Persist it. You can cast this and then Draconic Polymorph into yourself without the claw and bite attacks to look normal but keep all the other benefits. Bite of the Weretiger is a close runner-up to this, and it's a 6th level Transmutation.

There are tons of other great spells to Persist, like Shield, Foresight, Greater Mirror Image in PH2, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Swift Fly, Wraithstrike, Greater Blink, Ray Deflection, etc. You can also pick up the Fell Drain metamagic feat in Libris Mortis and have Persistent Fell Drain Death Armor and/or Persistent Fell Drain Fire Shield. If you do that you can also have a Persistent Fell Drain Cloud of Knives (PH2) to shoot a level-draining dagger every round without spending any actions.

Some good hour/level buffs would be Heart of Air/Water/Fire/Earth from Complete Mage, Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mighty Wallop in Races of the Dragon, Overland Flight, etc. and don't forget to (Metamagic Rod of) Extend those to last all day. There's also a few spells with a default duration of 24 hours, like Mind Blank, Greater/Superior Resistance, and Energy Immunity.

I'd probably go Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 7/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 4/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4 for a final build, that will get a +16 BAB at 20th level and still get full spellcasting. With Abjurant Champion you'll want to pick up the feat Arcane Preparation (CA) to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor (BoED) every day.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Does anyone have a link of the Barbarian Wizard on hand? It's a perfect example of the mirror opposite of what the OP is trying to accomplish.

"HARM!" *whacky whacky splorch*

[lunar2]

Take Ancestral Relic (BoED) and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224), you can put whatever spells you want on it and even switch what spells it has, designate spell uses/day from 1-3 depending on need/cost, etc. If the party would sell junk loot (orc weapons and armor, etc.) for half value you can buy that stuff from the party pool for that price, get a portion of that cost back when cash is split, and sacrifice the full value of those items into your relic to upgrade it for less than half price. Yes it absolutely works exactly like that.

Use Stalwart Sorcerer (CM) + Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer), which gets 3/4 BAB, 1d8+2 base HP/level, proficiency in any one light or one-handed martial weapon (armor spikes), proficiency plus weapon focus in any one martial weapon (preferably a bludgeoning reach weapon), proficiency and casting in light armor, and Intimidate instead of Bluff as a class skill. In exchange for that, you'll have few spells/day and significantly fewer spells known. Note that clever arrangement of the spells known drawbacks of those two variants will completely negate the Stalwart Sorcerer penalty. Most DMs wouldn't allow that, so applying both sets of drawbacks in the most fair (i.e. unfavorable) order will give you the following spells/day and spells known:

Spells per day Spells known
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 4 2 - - - - - - - - 1 2 1 - - - - - - - -
2 5 3 - - - - - - - - 2 3 1 - - - - - - - -
3 5 4 - - - - - - - - 3 4 1 - - - - - - - -
4 5 5 2 - - - - - - - 4 5 1 1 - - - - - - -
5 5 5 3 - - - - - - - 5 5 2 1 - - - - - - -
6 5 5 4 2 - - - - - - 6 6 2 1 1 - - - - - -
7 5 5 5 3 - - - - - - 7 6 4 1 1 - - - - - -
8 5 5 5 4 2 - - - - - 8 7 4 1 1 1 - - - - -
9 5 5 5 5 3 - - - - - 9 7 4 3 1 1 - - - - -
10 5 5 5 5 4 2 - - - - 10 8 4 3 1 1 1 - - - -
11 5 5 5 5 5 3 - - - - 11 8 4 4 3 1 1 - - - -
12 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - - - 12 8 4 4 3 1 1 1 - - -
13 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - - - 13 8 4 4 3 3 1 1 - - -
14 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - - 14 8 4 4 3 3 1 1 1 - -
15 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - - 15 8 4 4 3 3 3 1 1 - -
16 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - 16 8 4 4 3 3 3 1 1 1 -
17 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - 17 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 -
18 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 18 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1
19 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 19 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 1
20 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 20 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1

I'd go with an Illumian (Naenhoon), use two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (also here (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30)), get Draconic Heritage, Spell Focus: Transmutation, Ability Enhancer, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Practical Metamagic: Persistent Spell, Metamagic School Focus: Transmutation, Arcane Strike, Etc. Dip at least one level of Sacred Exorcist (4 is a sweet spot for both BAB and fulfilling its own spellcasting prerequisite) and get a Night Stick (LM). You can use Persistent Spell as a +5 metamagic, or +4 3/day on Transmutations, or for a cost of five turn attempts twice/day.

Ability Enhancer from Dragon Compendium is a bit tricky. It states that, "Any transmutation spell you cast that enhances ability scores increases the ability scores by +2 more than it normally does." It does not specify that it's limited to spells which grant an enhancement bonus, though the wording 'enhances' would definitely imply that. RAW it could be applied to any transmutation spell that causes any increase at all to ability scores, but it's ultimately up to your DM. Being in Dragon Compendium it may not even be allowed in many games, but without this it's probably not worth spending the feats on Spell Focus: Transmutation and Metamagic School Focus.

Draconic Polymorph is a 5th level Transmutation in the Draconomicon. It works like Polymorph, but increases your assumed form's Strength by +8 and Con by +2, and its range is Personal so you can Persist it from a 9th level spell slot or spend turn attempts on it. With a favorable Ability Enhancer ruling it would instead grant Str +10 and Con +4, which are untyped bonuses. You can Draconic Polymorph into yourself for those bonuses (Polymorph is based on Alter Self which specifically allows taking the form of yourself), or take the form of something like a War Troll for Str 41, Dex 16, Con 33, +14 natural armor, and its Dazing Blow ability.

Bite of the Werebear is a 7th level Transmutation in Spell Compendium. It gives Enhancement bonuses of Str +16, Dex +2, Con +8, and +7 natural armor, so with Ability Enhancer that would be Str +18, Dex +4, Con +10. It also gives you Blind-Fight and Power Attack for its duration, and you grow claw and bite attacks. Its range is personal, so you can spend turn attempts with Naenhoon to Persist it. You can cast this and then Draconic Polymorph into yourself without the claw and bite attacks to look normal but keep all the other benefits. Bite of the Weretiger is a close runner-up to this, and it's a 6th level Transmutation.

There are tons of other great spells to Persist, like Shield, Foresight, Greater Mirror Image in PH2, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Swift Fly, Wraithstrike, Greater Blink, Ray Deflection, etc. You can also pick up the Fell Drain metamagic feat in Libris Mortis and have Persistent Fell Drain Death Armor and/or Persistent Fell Drain Fire Shield. If you do that you can also have a Persistent Fell Drain Cloud of Knives (PH2) to shoot a level-draining dagger every round without spending any actions.

Some good hour/level buffs would be Heart of Air/Water/Fire/Earth from Complete Mage, Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mighty Wallop in Races of the Dragon, Overland Flight, etc. and don't forget to (Metamagic Rod of) Extend those to last all day. There's also a few spells with a default duration of 24 hours, like Mind Blank, Greater/Superior Resistance, and Energy Immunity.

I'd probably go Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 7/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 4/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4 for a final build, that will get a +16 BAB at 20th level and still get full spellcasting. With Abjurant Champion you'll want to pick up the feat Arcane Preparation (CA) to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor (BoED) every day.

some good suggestions here. i'd say no polymorph effects, though, and no fell drain stuff. we don't want him turning into a bear, even for the few seconds it takes to turn back. same with fire shield etc. no obviously magical effects. only someone casting detect magic should ever know this guy has spell effects on him. that way, he doesn't get dispels cast on him on a regular basis.

@not knowing he's casting spells. while components of spells are generally similar. they are not, by raw, identical. bards can cast in light armor because their somatic components are simpler than those of a wizard or sorcerer, same with divine casters. creatures that don't even have hands, like unicorns or aboleths, or who can't talk, like mind flayers, still have levels of casting classes in their advanced entry. so components are variable, and a sorcerer, who has no outside training, could develop their own components.

@psionics. sure, if that works better. i just thought the sorcerer fluff fit better.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

some good suggestions here. i'd say no polymorph effects, though, and no fell drain stuff. we don't want him turning into a bear, even for the few seconds it takes to turn back. same with fire shield etc. no obviously magical effects. only someone casting detect magic should ever know this guy has spell effects on him. that way, he doesn't get dispels cast on him on a regular basis.

@not knowing he's casting spells. while components of spells are generally similar. they are not, by raw, identical. bards can cast in light armor because their somatic components are simpler than those of a wizard or sorcerer, same with divine casters. creatures that don't even have hands, like unicorns or aboleths, or who can't talk, like mind flayers, still have levels of casting classes in their advanced entry. so components are variable, and a sorcerer, who has no outside training, could develop their own components.

@psionics. sure, if that works better. i just thought the sorcerer fluff fit better.

Persistent Bite of the Werebear and then Persistent Draconic Polymorph into himself will give him Str +26, Dex +4, Con +12, and +7 natural armor. Blame the 1-round minor bear features on some weak lycanthrope blood if you want. It'll add even more mystery to the character and distract everyone from where his power really comes from.

You can throw on Invisible Spell from Cityscape to completely avoid any visual effects of any spells he casts.

[Urpriest]

Persistent Bite of the Werebear and then Persistent Draconic Polymorph into himself will give him Str +26, Dex +4, Con +12, and +7 natural armor. Blame the 1-round minor bear features on some weak lycanthrope blood if you want. It'll add even more mystery to the character and distract everyone from where his power really comes from.

You can throw on Invisible Spell from Cityscape to completely avoid any visual effects of any spells he casts.

No, it would give him Str 36, Dex 14, Con 22. You can only Polymorph into a generic member of your kind, statswise. So might still be worth it, but might not.

[Medic!]

Not to kick a dead horse, but you could use the UA variant for spontaneous divine casting and go cleric. You start your day with a bit of meditation, some yoga to greet the day, as it were, (after all, a true warrior harnesses mind, body, and spirit), then a quick exercise/stretching routine (to cast the buffs you just received because you I-Think-I-Can'd them available.)

Then when the blood's really boiling you can go into a berserker rage (read: Righteous Might).

Any armor's fine then, and with the added bonus of domains (Strength domain, war domain, destruction domain, etc etc etc) you can really fit some good fluff in there with Smite or gain some free weapon feats, or that super OP Feat of Strength :smallwink:

EDIT: You could also incorporate a few spells into your PC, namely some of the Cure spells via Heal checks. An ally has an arrow in his shoulder, you roll your heal and make a poultice, applying it to the shoulder *cure light wounds without "knowing" it* etc. Someone has Mummy Rot and you notice they aren't looking to be in as good of health as they could be, so you start showing them how to do some exercises that will make them healthier/stronger, and as your guiding hand corrects their foot position or their posture *break enchantment* and *remove disease*

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, it would give him Str 36, Dex 14, Con 22. You can only Polymorph into a generic member of your kind, statswise. So might still be worth it, but might not.

Alter Self specifically allows you to take the form of yourself, and Polymorph is based on Alter Self. This is an exception to what you're referencing, it's taking the form of a specific creature rather than a typical member of that race, so you get that specific creature's (your own) physical stats.

[Urpriest]

Alter Self specifically allows you to take the form of yourself, and Polymorph is based on Alter Self. This is an exception to what you're referencing, it's taking the form of a specific creature rather than a typical member of that race, so you get that specific creature's (your own) physical stats.

Huh. That's exceptionally dubious, but I can't seem to find a direct quote against it. Hmm...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Huh. That's exceptionally dubious, but I can't seem to find a direct quote against it. Hmm...

That's because it works. :smallbiggrin:
Another thing to note about that is that it also overrides the general rule on not being able to take the form of a creature with a template. If you have for example a Wood Elf Half-Minotaur Half-Goristro, you can still Draconic Polymorph into yourself for the unnamed Str and Con bonuses.

Edit: That reminds me, you can (Draconic) Polymorph into a War Troll or Firbolg and then Alter Self into yourself, and keep those physical ability scores.

[Zdrak]

Polymorph and Alter Self are not the same with respect to ability scores.


You retain your own ability scores


This spell functions like alter self, except that ... The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Polymorph and Alter Self are not the same with respect to ability scores.

Exactly. Polymorph functions as Alter Self, but it expands the type and size limitations on Alter Self to a new set of limitations. If every part of Alter Self were replaced, then it wouldn't be referenced at all.

"The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form."

Here's what it replaces and what it doesn't:

"You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself."

If you're taking the form of yourself, then "The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form" will give you your own physical ability scores.

[Eriash'demaa]

I think this would be a good one: Illumian Battle Sorcerer/Ranger (Non-spellcasting variant from Unearthed Arcana), with Aeshkrau sigils, Eschew Materials, and the following spells:

Lvl 0:
Resistance
Daze
Touch of Fatigue

Lvl 1:
False Strike

For info, visit this site:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Sorcerer/Wizard_Spells