Epic Skill Uses

[Magic Myrmidon]

I've been looking through epic skill uses, and I've noticed that some of them are relatively easy to achieve out of epic, primarily tumble. In fact, I have a level 15 character who can take 10 on tumble and get 36. I was wondering if, for instance, he can get up from prone as a free action, which is a dc 35, even though he isn't epic level.

Tl;dr: Can you use epic skill DC checks even if you aren't epic level?

[Cruiser1]

Can you use epic skill DC checks even if you aren't epic level?
By RAW no. They're described as "epic level skill uses", which means they're only available to epic characters. Epic skills are described in the Epic Level Handbook, in the chapter "Characters, Skills & Feats" describing new options available to epic characters.

Of course, a DM may rule otherwise, and a clever rules lawyer might be able to find a loophole (e.g. Dragonwrought Kobolds) that convinces a Lawful DM to allow epic skills for certain pre-epic characters.

[Mishkov]

There's only two lines I found that's really relevant to this in the ELH:

one is "skills...offering a skill check Difficulty Class (DCs) only an epic level character could hope to make." The other saying it progresses business as usual. Sort of hinges on your reading of the phrase "hope to make".

I'd ask your DM. I would say that if the ELH is not in play at all, it should not be allowed. RAW though, I don't see anything saying blatantly "no".

[Dr.Epic]

I had a level 5 character who had +25 to Bluff and +23 to Disguise.:smalltongue:

[Mishkov]

By RAW no. They're described as "epic level skill uses", which means they're only available to epic characters. Epic skills are described in the Epic Level Handbook, in the chapter "Characters, Skills & Feats" describing new options available to epic characters.

Of course, a DM may rule otherwise, and a clever rules lawyer might be able to find a loophole (e.g. Dragonwrought Kobolds) that convinces a Lawful DM to allow epic skills for certain pre-epic characters.

Can you find a line in the ELH that explicitly says this? There's one for feats, but I don't see one for skills...

[TuggyNE]

I've been looking through epic skill uses, and I've noticed that some of them are relatively easy to achieve out of epic, primarily tumble. In fact, I have a level 15 character who can take 10 on tumble and get 36. I was wondering if, for instance, he can get up from prone as a free action, which is a dc 35, even though he isn't epic level.

Tl;dr: Can you use epic skill DC checks even if you aren't epic level?

I think you can, and if you can't you certainly should be able to. For example, balancing on a surface <1 inch wide (DC 40), quick creation (+10 to Craft DC to improve progress made), hide another creature (-30 penalty to check*), stand on a mount while riding (DC 40*), speed swimming (-20 penalty to check to move full land speed as a move action, or twice that as a full-round action), or reduce fall distance by 20' (DC 30). All of these things can be performed by moderately unusual people in our own world at levels far below epic. (*In point of fact, standing on a walking horse is one of the easiest stunts in trick riding, and I'm a little dubious that hiding someone else is really so hard.)

So RAW seems to permit it, and RACSD certainly argues strongly for it; RAI may be unknowable.

[Jeraa]

From the Epic Level Handbook FAQ:


Can a character who has not reached epic levels achieve the results listed for an epic level skill DC? For example, suppose my 10th-level wizard could achieve a Spellcraft result of 50 through some combination of ability bonuses and skill bonuses; could the character identify potions quickly?

Yes. Anyone who can manage a sufficiently high skill check result can get an “epic” result.

[Anxe]

And the specific Tumble example shows up as a non-epic use on page 103 of Complete Adventurer.

[Cruiser1]

From the Epic Level Handbook FAQ:
Wow, the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) does allow them! Learn something new every day. :smallsmile: Of course, not all DM follow the FAQ, which is notorious for errors.

And the specific Tumble example shows up as a non-epic use on page 103 of Complete Adventurer.
Actually, the above can lend support that epic skill uses can't be used pre-epic. The section in CAdv is just additional standard uses of skills. Note they're slightly different: Standing up from prone as a free action (DC 35 Tumble check) incurs an attack of opportunity in CAdv, but doesn't incur AOO in ELH. Become epic and avoid the AOO! If the skill usages in ELH are allowed pre-epic, it would be best if they weren't called "epic skill uses" at all, but rather just higher DC usages for existing skills that could be printed in any sourcebook.

[TuggyNE]

If the skill usages in ELH are allowed pre-epic, it would be best if they weren't called "epic skill uses" at all, but rather just higher DC usages for existing skills that could be printed in any sourcebook.

Well, yes, but it's a bit late for that; ELH was printed very early on, and never revisited much.