combination for an anti spellcaster ranged class (pf)

[gartius]

Hey guys I have a question to check my reasoning behind this plan i just came up with.

in the game i'm playing a zen archer4/ inquisitor 5 and i've chosen silence as my 2nd lvl spell. The question comes from abundant ammunition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/abundant-ammunition) more specifically
If, after casting this spell, you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon or greater magic weapon, on the same container, all projectiles this spell conjures are affected by that spell.

does this mean if i cast silence on one of the ammunition in the quiver i can get multiple arrows of silence each round?

and in case the question arises how i have abundant ammunition its a custom quiver as between me and the gm we decided the +2 endless ammunition enchantment isn't worth it.

[Exirtadorri]

You cant...the spell specifically states spells that enhance. I.e. bless or keen. Silence doesnt specifically target weapons or enhance them....even augment would be a very far stretch.

[TuggyNE]

You cant...the spell specifically states spells that enhance. I.e. bless or keen. Silence doesnt specifically target weapons or enhance them....even augment would be a very far stretch.

Basically, this. RAW seems fairly clear, and RAI is crystal.

Arcane Archer can't be rendered superfluous quite that easily.

[gartius]

problem is silence DOES target weapons


The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object.

so i can cast silence on an arrow head and should be able to reappear if thats the problem.

Also Arcane archer has no real ability that does this unless you are referring to imbue arrow. Even then I consider arcane archer an extremely weak prestige.

I dunno i think i'll ask my dm tonight.

[Exirtadorri]

Yes, you can cast silence on an item. Yes, you can cast silence on your quiver, rending your spell casting moot. Still silence doesn't enhance your weapon. If you're dm allows this, kudos! However if he does be prepared for other ridiculous things like...enlarge person on darts or bull str on a needle.

[gartius]

okay... enlarge person and bulls strength cannot be cast on ridiculous things. what i am doing is RAW.

the question comes from if i get multiple uses of silence from the abundant ammunition as the arrow is replaced thanks to abundant ammunition-i'm not casting on the quiver i'm casting on the arrow which will be replaced exactly as it was when it left said quiver under the effect of silence-even if i don't its still a valid tactic as it means i cast on the arrow and hit the enemy and they won't receive a save as it is not directed on them but it will travel with them since you know arrow sticking into them.

[Exirtadorri]

But dont you see...my example is as silly as yours. The RAW and RAI are very clear. Dont insult my idea just because you dont like my answer. You asked for answers and they were given.

[sdream]

I think there is a big difference between a spell which cannot target objects and a spell which can.

I think RAW and RAI would count any effect you can cast on an item which enhances it as an enhancement, and clearly spells which cannot effect it are not.

If he had an "enlarge item" spell that worked when cast on ammunition, it would be completely fair game, and the only thing absurd about Exirtadorri's examples would be declaring arrows or a quiver to be a person or have a strength score.

The only other spells I can think of would be light or darkness, but depending on exact details, I could see something like alarm or circle of protection possibly being useful also.

It seems a creative use of the mechanic, and I would like to see an example of a spell which would truly be abusive.

I think the closest you could come would be that druid spell that turns acorns into bombs, if you cast that on a slingpouch full of acorns.

[gartius]

But dont you see...my example is as silly as yours. The RAW and RAI are very clear. Dont insult my idea just because you dont like my answer. You asked for answers and they were given.

i didn't insult the idea just repeated what you said yourself-the examples you gave were ridiculous and pointed out were not RAW legal.

however the idea behind my tactic IS RAW legal since you target the arrow-you said target the quiver which i am not doing- if you target the quiver then yeah the person casting is an idiot. In fact when i presented the idea to the group they thought it was a cleaver and effective way to make use of silence while denying them the will save-in terms of the original idea it of having mulitple arrows it doesn't work but the tactic behind the idea (silence on an arrow) was given a :O treatment (we only have one competant wizard in the group while the other is a blaster so for them it was a new tactic)

[TuggyNE]

problem is silence DOES target weapons

Certainly silence targets objects; however, it does not enhance weapons specifically, but has an entirely unrelated function. That is, silence does not improve the weapon's to-hit, damage, miss-chance avoidance, hardness, HP, range increments, or any other directly relevant weapon statistic. As such, I don't believe it "enhances projectiles".


Also Arcane archer has no real ability that does this unless you are referring to imbue arrow. Even then I consider arcane archer an extremely weak prestige.

Yes, Imbue Arrow is what I was referring to, the ability to take nearly any spell and send it on an arrow.


however the idea behind my tactic IS RAW legal since you target the arrow-you said target the quiver which i am not doing- if you target the quiver then yeah the person casting is an idiot. In fact when i presented the idea to the group they thought it was a cleaver and effective way to make use of silence while denying them the will save-in terms of the original idea it of having mulitple arrows it doesn't work but the tactic behind the idea (silence on an arrow) was given a :O treatment (we only have one competant wizard in the group while the other is a blaster so for them it was a new tactic)

You can certainly cast silence on a single arrow and fire that to (attempt to) disable a caster; however, casting silence on a quiver with abundant ammunition on it, and expecting the result to be arrows of targeted silence rather than a silenced quiver is the problem, and that is not justifiable by RAW, in my opinion.

[Eugenides]

I'm getting what the others are getting: your group and you seem to think the game works one way. You come to the forum, mostly to show off and partly to get a verification of your opinion.

What you get in the forums is that we disagree with your idea being RAW. So you lash out, say it's actually RAW and we're being stupid, and then can just not mention this to your party or DM and get what you want from them.

[gartius]

I'm getting what the others are getting: your group and you seem to think the game works one way. You come to the forum, mostly to show off and partly to get a verification of your opinion.

What you get in the forums is that we disagree with your idea being RAW. So you lash out, say it's actually RAW and we're being stupid, and then can just not mention this to your party or DM and get what you want from them.

wait what? where is this idea from?

i came to get the verification yes. What i got from Exirtadorri says my tactic of silence on arrow doesnt work-which it does as has been confirmed by other playgrounders

the idea of abundant ammunition working with it does not work as i said in my last post which my dm said no to.


however the idea behind my tactic IS RAW legal since you target the arrow-you said target the quiver which i am not doing- if you target the quiver then yeah the person casting is an idiot. In fact when i presented the idea to the group they thought it was a cleaver and effective way to make use of silence while denying them the will save-in terms of the original idea it of having mulitple arrows it doesn't work but the tactic behind the idea (silence on an arrow) was given a :O treatment (we only have one competant wizard in the group while the other is a blaster so for them it was a new tactic)

the new idea was what was presented of silence on arrow as it denys the caster a will save which is what caused the group to have a mouth drop.

i see no where in here where i have 'lashed out' All i have said is enlarge person and bulls strength arrows are impossible -which they are since they cannot be cast on objects-silence can. And that arcane archer is a weak prestige class which imbue arrow may allow any spell to be cast through it did not help towards the discussion that i presented

[TuggyNE]

the new idea was what was presented of silence on arrow as it denys the caster a will save which is what caused the group to have a mouth drop.

i see no where in here where i have 'lashed out' All i have said is enlarge person and bulls strength arrows are impossible -which they are since they cannot be cast on objects-silence can. And that arcane archer is a weak prestige class which imbue arrow may allow any spell to be cast through it did not help towards the discussion that i presented

I think several of us probably missed your note in passing that you'd given up on the idea of combining it with abundant ammunition (which was really the only contentious thing); casting silence on objects is a moderately-well-known and perfectly legal tactic.

But, OK, it's all settled I guess.

[Boci]

casting silence on objects is a moderately-well-known and perfectly legal tactic.


Isn't an arrow destroyed on a hit though? Wouldn't that end the silence?

[TuggyNE]

Isn't an arrow destroyed on a hit though? Wouldn't that end the silence?

Hmm, good point, it probably would.

In that case, using some kind of thrown weapon is likely to work much better.

(Or, of course, just cast it on a point in space already.)

[Boci]

Hmm, good point, it probably would.

In that case, using some kind of thrown weapon is likely to work much better.

That shines a light on an area the rules neglect: what happens to a thrown weapon that hits? Does it embed itself, fall to the ground in the target's square? The answer the DM gives is going to influence the HP problem.


(Or, of course, just cast it on a point in space already.)

That only works if you have a budy to play lockdown, otherwise the mage moves away and at best you've prevented him from casting a full round action spell.

[gartius]

in this case the dm ruled that the arrow is sticking out of the body. It cant be retrieved and is considered destroyed but in tense of purposes he allowed it since he is a big believer in realism - this has screwed the party over quite badly against us before for example he denys masterwork tool if you cannot think of a corresponding tool and the ability to use power attack with weapon fineese as he cannot see it working so it is nice that realism helps rather than hinders in this case.

I am fully expecting him to snap said arrow to centre the effect in that area but it has still caused the caster to waste his standard to do so (basing this on arrows that have effects like igiting to back up-we didnt decide on this so it may come up).

however if this does become an issue in another game use durable arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-durable) instead

[Boci]

in this case the dm ruled that the arrow is sticking out of the body. It cant be retrieved and is considered destroyed but in tense of purposes he allowed it since he is a big believer in realism - this has screwed the party over quite badly against us before for example he denys masterwork tool if you cannot think of a corresponding tool and the ability to use power attack with weapon fineese as he cannot see it working so it is nice that realism helps rather than hinders in this case.

I am fully expecting him to snap said arrow to centre the effect in that area but it has still caused the caster to waste his standard to do so (basing this on arrows that have effects like igiting to back up-we didnt decide on this so it may come up).

however if this does become an issue in another game use durable arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-durable) instead

That should work. Also if your DM is big on realism, ask him how easy he thinks it is for someone who has most likely dumped strength to snap an arrow in half (durable may help this case). And make your arrows barbed to do extra damage when they are pulled out.

[TuggyNE]

That shines a light on an area the rules neglect: what happens to a thrown weapon that hits? Does it embed itself, fall to the ground in the target's square? The answer the DM gives is going to influence the HP problem.

There's at least one thrown weapon (harpoon, I think?) that sticks until it's pulled out, and does extra damage at that point. Whether other thrown weapons do or do not remain in the wound is, however, uncertain.