Battle Sorcerer is still Tier 2?

[etrpgb]

Or the fact it has less spells known and per day makes it a Tier 3?

(See UA, pag. 56)

Discuss.

[Snowbluff]

Hahahahaha no. It just puts you behind in spells known. As long as it gets 9ths of its choice from the Wizard's list, it's T2.

Asking for a discussion on something described in the axioms of the Tier list is a little strange.

[etrpgb]

even with only 2 spells known and casting 4? It is way less than the Sorcerer and Wizard.

[Snowbluff]

even with only 2 spells known and casting 4? It is way less than the Sorcerer and Wizard.

4 casting is the same as a regular wizard, and there are ways to expand your list if are in dire need.

[Gnaeus]

It can break the game just as much as sorc, just in less ways. It can still cast Gate, Shapechange or Wish. It is weaker than a Sorc, but still T2. Just like Spirit Shaman is much weaker than the big 3, but still T1.

[Cog]

Worth noting is that Sorcerer, with splats, is probably at the very top of T2. It's got a long way to fall before hitting T3.

[IdleMuse]

Also obligatory note that the Tier list is not about 'power numbers'; A fighter could get +3 BAB each level and still be T4/5, a Sorcerer could get 1 spell/day of each level and still be T2; it's all about versatility, the types of challenges each class can overcome, not about out-and-out 'strength'.

[etrpgb]

Yet a Dread Necromancer or a Beguiller have much more spells per day and known than a Battle Sorcerer and yet they are considered weaker.

What are the tricks that make a Sorcerer T2?

(Sorry if I insist I really want to understand)

[RCgothic]

Restricted spell lists, therefore less versatility. :smallwink:

[ahenobarbi]

It can break the game just as much as sorc, just in less ways. It can still cast Gate, Shapechange or Wish. It is weaker than a Sorc, but still T2. Just like Spirit Shaman is much weaker than the big 3, but still T1.

Let's start with tier definitions (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=bc18425e5fa73d30e4a9a54889edf4 4e&topic=1002.0)


Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels...

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes...

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.

Battle sorcerer still can get 2 of Shapechange, Wish, Gate. And cast them 4 times a day (even without extra spell slots from high Cha). And just Gate abused can do almost everything.

Beguiler can cast more spells. And know more spells. But they don't get game breaking spells like Wish, Gate, Shapechange, Miracle, Ice Assasin, ...

It's not just about how many spells you can cast and what level they are. It's mostly what you can do with spells. Like you know.. Wish wouldn't be any weaker if some class got it as 1st level spell :smallwink:

[etrpgb]

Lemme explain our problem; we are playing a ``mass banning'' tier 3 game.

In other words only the Tier 3 classes (+ shugenja) and Good to Great and Mediocre PrC are available.

The game is actually working fairly well, but we feel the lack of a cleric-favored class and of a wizard-favored class... Maybe removing an handful of spells from the game we can have such a class?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Lemme explain our problem; we are playing a ``mass banning'' tier 3 game.

In other words only the Tier 3 classes (+ shugenja) and Good to Great and Mediocre PrC are available.

The game is actually working fairly well, but we feel the lack of a cleric-favored class and of a wizard-favored class... Maybe removing an handful of spells from the game we can have such a class?

You have Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necro for your arcane casting classes, plus Bard. As for divine... yea, divine classes tend to the extremes. If you can go well below your tier, you can go for Healer. There's ways to boost it back up to around Tier 3. Spontaneous Divine variant coupled with Sovereign Speaker ought to do it easily enough.

[ahenobarbi]

Lemme explain our problem; we are playing a ``mass banning'' tier 3 game.

In other words only the Tier 3 classes (+ shugenja) and Good to Great and Mediocre PrC are available.

The game is actually working fairly well, but we feel the lack of a cleric-favored class and of a wizard-favored class... Maybe removing an handful of spells from the game we can have such a class?

I'm not sure what you mean. Does your party miss something? If it does please write what do you think it is.

Or are you interesting in making new tier-3 casters? For that I'd suggest checking on homebrew forums.

[Diovid]

A Bard using the Bardic Sage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantBardicSage) variant could function as a tier 3 arcane class.

For a tier 3 Cleric, try Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) + the Healing Hymn variant (Complete Champion).

For a tier 3 Druid, try Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) + Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) + Fey Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bard) (or Wildshape Mystic Ranger or Totemist)

[The Random NPC]

I'm not sure what you mean. Does your party miss something? If it does please write what do you think it is.

Or are you interesting in making new tier-3 casters? For that I'd suggest checking on homebrew forums.

I believe he means that for their game they have banned all but the tier-3 classes, because of this, they don't have a class that feels the same as a wizard or cleric, and is asking for an official tier-3 version of the two (if the Battle Sorcerer was tier-3 or if the War Wizard was, I'm sure that would be enough for the arcane side.)

[Axier]

I dont even think Stalwart Sorcerer combined with Battle Sorcerer is lower than Tier 2...

You have -1 Spell per day per level (Min 0), and -1 Spells known per level (Min 1), as well as -1 Spells Known for your Highest spell level (Min 1)

At 6th level--Because E6 thats why--a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer has:

Spell level 1: 3 spells known / 5 Spells per day
Spell level 2: 1 Spell Known / 4 Spells per day
Spell level 3: 1 Spell known / 2 Spells per day.
Along with 6 cantrips, 5 castings per day.

Doesnt sound like much, right? The wizard however, unless specialized, will have 1 less first level spell, and compairable second and third level spells. What is the difference? Only the minor amount of spells known. You will have only 5 spells, period.

I argue that 5 spells is more than enough, because now, you are physically stronger.

You have a d8 Hit Die, and you get an extra +2HP for each level in Sorcerer. You also have a respectable BAB, and a couple of free weapon and armor proficiencies. You are going to be harder to kill, and if you choose wisely, those 5 spells can keep you in the game quite solidly. You can also still use most wands, which is always realy useful for melee spellcasters anyway, because you can get wand slots in your weapons, and you dont even have to worry about UMDs, because all the good spells are already on your list. You can also get some reserve feats if you like.

At the end of the day, the reason they are Tier 2, even though they seem to have less spellcasting than a Beguiler, is because they have an AMAZING spell list, that covers almost ANY situation, so you can always build it for the type of DM or campagin you expect. Its all about the spell list baby...

[Zdrak]

For a tier 3 Druid, try Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) + Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) + Fey Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bard) (or Wildshape Mystic Ranger or Totemist)Simpler, combine Mystic Ranger from Dragon magazine with the Wildshape Ranger variant, and you have a tier 3 Druid.

[Gnaeus]

In practical play, I would say a beguiler or dread necro is likely to be stronger and more versatile than a battle sorcerer. It is easier to add spells to a list (with tricks like Arcane Disciple or PRCs) than it is to add to spells known for a sorc, So ultimately I would expect the Beguiler or DN to be MORE versatile than the sorc. And I argued this with JaronK. And in play, a lot of it comes down to what "same level of optimization" means. (Example, is dragonwrought kobold at the same level of opti-fu as Shadowcraft Mage).

But ultimately, by definition, limited spell list is T3, picks from one of the game breaking lists is T2, open selection from that list is T1.

[gorfnab]

For a tier 3 Cleric, try Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) + the Healing Hymn variant (Complete Champion).

Nightstalker (Dragonlance: Races of Ansalon) can also work as a Tier 3 Cleric.

[Diovid]

Simpler, combine Mystic Ranger from Dragon magazine with the Wildshape Ranger variant, and you have a tier 3 Druid.
Maybe you should read what you quote :smalltongue:

[Zdrak]

Maybe you should read what you quote :smalltongue:Sorry, too much Wikipedia. Only paying attention to underlined words.:smallredface:

[IdleMuse]

Nightstalker (Dragonlance: Races of Ansalon) can also work as a Tier 3 Cleric.

Seconding this; it's a massively overlooked class (due to massive sourcebook obscurity), but it's cool and flavourful.

[Answerer]

Especially in the case of Sorcerer, you could easily create a Tier-3-ish Sorcerer by avoiding the most broken spells. If you don't take any polymorph/shapechanging effects, and you don't take any Calling effects, and you don't take contingency or celerity... you're almost definitely (a very good) Tier 3. Spells like grease, glitterdust, haste, solid fog are very good, but they aren't game breakers like polymorph or celerity are.