Options for a Good Fighter?

[Saskia]

So I'm not terribly familiar with fighter-type classes in 3.5 or what makes a good one (other than hitting really, really hard) because I like casters and skill monkeys more. Or, at least I think I do because I've never really played a fighter much, so I guess it isn't fair to say I like them less.

Anyway, one of my friends is starting a 3.5 campaign next week and since we have a cleric, a wizard, and a rogue with a lot of social focus, so I was looking at fighter as a segue into Anointed Knight from BoED for tasty tasty flavor; I don't like paladin's code of conduct but I very much like the idea of a consecrated warrior of good, which is what I'm going for with this character. Thing is, I don't know 1) how anointed knight stacks up with other similar fighter PrC options, or 2) if fighter or ranger are even good stating class options. Any advice is welcome because I am a fighter scrub :smallbiggrin:

[Amidus Drexel]

If Tome of Battle is on the table, I would suggest Crusader. The granted maneuvers system is a little difficult to get used to, but I think you'll find that it has all the "holy warrior" feel to it that you need. Crusaders don't have any code of conduct, either.

Knight is a decent class also (PHBII), and you'll be getting most of its good abilities up front, so it's not bad to PrC out of. Knight has a code of conduct, but it's a lot less restrictive than the paladin's.

Fighter is okay, but you will probably be shy a few skill points to enter Anointed Knight. Ranger is also a decent choice, but you might find other PrCs that work better with it than Anointed Knight.

As far as other PrCs, you should look into Complete Divine and Complete Champion, and see if anything sticks out as matching your character concept.

[Jerthanis]

I hate to be THAT guy, but does your DM allow Tome of Battle? Its Crusader is a holy warrior dedicated to his ideals and mixes well with most PrCs, though I'm unfamiliar with Anoited Knight specifically. The advantage is that it has some of the complexity you may enjoy from playing spellcasters in its ability to choose maneuvers.

I have very little good fighter advice other than that.

EDIT: Ninja'd... was even going to mention Knight too, but reconsidered.

[Urpriest]

Fighter, as a class, is for complicated builds that need very specific feat progressions. It's not really designed to be generic filler to get you up to a PrC. For that, the above suggestions are good: something from ToB, or Knight, or perhaps some Ranger.

[Eldariel]

I concur: Your concept screams Crusader and it sounds like the kind of Warrior you'd enjoy and the kind of frontliner your party needs. While it of course doesn't have a built-in Code of Conduct, that's more of a roleplaying prerequisite anyways; you can certainly follow a Code of Conduct or belong to an order that requires one without your class specifically saying it.

If you still desire, you can of course enter Anointed Knight from Crusader; the class gains some interesting abilities though the weapon anointment options seem a bit uninspiring (they basically just make your weapon harder to destroy; it's plenty hard already as a magic weapon tho). And the personal anointment options aren't all that either. If you have high Charisma you can get some reasonable selection out of it though. Biggest problem is the combat abilities being restricted to 3/day. Extra attack is definitely nice to have though.


Crusader certainly multiclasses well though so that part works out. Of course, being a Crusader with Ancestral Relic is also perfectly fine.

Outside Tome of Battle, some kind of a multiclassed Ranger/Fighter is indeed probably the best entry path. Barbarian can work too and is indeed a fairly strong option though from the sound of it that doesn't mesh with your overall concept that well. Two levels of Paladin is of course also reasonable.

[eggs]

With fighters, I try to a checklist that looks something like:

Are your numbers (saves/attack/damage/AC) enough to deal with the monsters you would reasonably face? [Not depending on party-members' buffs unless they're free for the ally in both daily resources and in-combat actions.]
Can you move and really mangle a target in the same round?
Can you deal with Invisible enemies?
Flyers?
Incorporeal monsters?
Monsters with immunity to fear/poison/crits?
Can you effectively contribute with party support or by targeting at least one defense beside AC/DR/HP, in case the "whack it" approach to a problem doesn't work?
Can you withstand common effects like damage/fear/blindness/enchantments/fatigue/nausea? [Very high AC/saves/numbers are good, but immunities and immediate defenses are better.]
Can you make yourself useful when the party isn't fighting things?


Covering those with character abilities is usually the best approach, followed by covering them with crafted/legacy items or association membership, followed by throwing WBL at the problems (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851).

Bringing this in to the Anointed Knight, the class has some interesting benefits, especially with a high enough charisma to snipe the best abilities at minimum class levels. If you're fitting a build around it, I'd probably lean toward going about it via either:
Crusader 14/Soldier of Light 1/Anointed Knight 5 (rearranged so PrC levels come in sets of two and Anointed Knight levels are placed to get at the best abilities like Celestial Strategy/Inspired Strike/Sentient Item as early as possible with your Charisma; Soldier of Light for turning for a good domain feat like Animal, Law, Travel or Earth)
-or-
Barbarian 1/Paladin of Freedom 4/Hellreaver 10/Anointed Knight 5 (feats playing up Rage-based fear; Anointed Knight levels pushed up wherever the good abilities are available; Turning again used for a domain feat).

[Saskia]

Thanks for your input guys!

If Tome of Battle is on the table, I would suggest Crusader.

I hate to be THAT guy, but does your DM allow Tome of Battle?

Your concept screams Crusader and it sounds like the kind of Warrior you'd enjoy and the kind of frontliner your party needs.
Crusader looks like it fits really well with what I want to do, but unfortunately the "Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic" is not an option :smallfrown: (though I do laugh every time I hear it called by that name :smallredface:)


Knight is a decent class also (PHBII), and you'll be getting most of its good abilities up front, so it's not bad to PrC out of. Knight has a code of conduct, but it's a lot less restrictive than the paladin's.
Dat d12. I was leaning toward NG but LG isn't bad and there's nothing wrong with being dedicated to good and also being a glory hound, as an honor-based CoC requires. I suspected that would be how I ended up playing it anyway. Mobility restrictions are awful too so being able to move freely in heavier armor also seems really nice, and so does being a 15 foot block of difficult terrain. This could work.


Fighter, as a class, is for complicated builds that need very specific feat progressions. It's not really designed to be generic filler to get you up to a PrC.

Well that makes sense. The reason I was considering fighter was kind of for that purpose though, so I could do a sword and board fighter for a good AC with TWF and shield bash and related feats for offensive ability. I don't know if that would be really necessary or even worth the feats though, or if I should go with a 2-hander or just not bother with TWF and bash. By the numbers damage potential seems generally higher and more reliable with like a great sword because of the TWF penalties and relying heavily on a large number of increasingly unreliable attack rolls, or just sword and board. I'm leaning toward sword and shield without TWF though.

So I'm looking at a focus on AC as knight with like combat reflexes and shield ward I can just be a fifteen foot square wall of obnoxious in combat, which seems like it would mix well with Divine Crusader if I take the right domain. I rolled well on ability scores too so having to have decent str/dex/con/cha won't be too much of a problem.


With fighters, I try to a checklist that looks something like:

Are your numbers (saves/attack/damage/AC) enough to deal with the monsters you would reasonably face? [Not depending on party-members' buffs unless they're free for the ally in both daily resources and in-combat actions.]
Can you move and really mangle a target in the same round?
Can you deal with Invisible enemies?
Flyers?
Incorporeal monsters?
Monsters with immunity to fear/poison/crits?
Can you effectively contribute with party support or by targeting at least one defense beside AC/DR/HP, in case the "whack it" approach to a problem doesn't work?
Can you withstand common effects like damage/fear/blindness/enchantments/fatigue/nausea? [Very high AC/saves/numbers are good, but immunities and immediate defenses are better.]
Can you make yourself useful when the party isn't fighting things?

Covering those with character abilities is usually the best approach, followed by covering them with crafted/legacy items or association membership, followed by throwing WBL at the problems.

Bringing this in to the Anointed Knight, the class has some interesting benefits, especially with a high enough charisma to snipe the best abilities at minimum class levels. If you're fitting a build around it, I'd probably lean toward going about it via either:
Crusader 14/Soldier of Light 1/Anointed Knight 5 (rearranged so PrC levels come in sets of two and Anointed Knight levels are placed to get at the best abilities like Celestial Strategy/Inspired Strike/Sentient Item as early as possible with your Charisma; Soldier of Light for turning for a good domain feat like Animal, Law, Travel or Earth)
-or-
Barbarian 1/Paladin of Freedom 4/Hellreaver 10/Anointed Knight 5 (feats playing up Rage-based fear; Anointed Knight levels pushed up wherever the good abilities are available; Turning again used for a domain feat).

Fort is good, reflex is high, will is okay, and AC/attack rolls/HP are all good, but damage is 1d8+2. I don't think a move action+one hit for 3-10 damage counts as mangling something :smallfrown: Maybe it's because I'm used to fireballs and call lightning at 5th level but it doesn't seem particularly brutal. I have a decent dex so I can hit flying enemies with a composite longbow but again 1d8+2 isn't exactly a ballista. I have just enough skill points to pump diplomacy and ride and still have some spare. In combat if brute force doesn't work I can at least keep most enemies checked so somebody with a broader combat palate has time to kill it, though I would rather be more effective at killing stuff myself than rely on casters wasting their resources.

The DM doesn't want ACF so freedom paladin isn't on the table, but Hellreaver looks really interesting.

[Gnaeus]

How optimized are your friends characters.

I do not generally recommend Knight. It is a trap. If the other players are very poorly optimized or the DM very generous it can work ok.

My suggestions would include:
1. CoDZilla. I know you have a cleric, but if he is a casting cleric and you make a hitting things cleric you might not overlap much. Tier 1's can fight better than fighters. Holy Warrior of light screams Cleric. Druids can also be built well for melee.

2. The tier 3 fighter types:
Psionic Warrior
Wildshape focused Ranger
Duskblade
Totemist.

These are guys who can hold their own in combat, and often exceed what the fighter can do, but at the same time have a lot more options.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Anointed Knight requires Craft (alchemy) 5 ranks, but looking at the Special section of the Craft skill, "To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment and be a spellcaster." The Anoint X abilities of Anointed Knight all specify alchemical components are needed, which means it's created with Craft (alchemy), which means you can't even use those class features unless you're able to cast spells.

You can completely avoid the Paladin code of conduct by taking the Bone Knight prestige class from Five Nations. Something like Paladin 4/ Bone Knight 2/ Anointed Knight would work, but starting out like that I'd rather go Paladin 4/ Bone Knight 4/ Divine Crusader 1/ Bone Knight 6/ (3/5 casting PrC) 5, advancing Divine Crusader casting as much as possible. The Wrath domain would probably be the most beneficial for that character, and you can pick up more domains to expand your spell list.

[kitcik]

Fighter, as a class, is for complicated builds...

I agree with this in practice (really it's more of a feat-dip), but I think EGG would turn over in his grave if he read this.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're going to use Fighter, get at least nine levels with the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) sub levels (rename it big-bad-bully if you want) and say he'd rather strong-arms his opponents into submission than kill them. Check out the fear handbook (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), particularly the Dreadful Wrath, Imperious Command, and Nymph's Kiss feats. Don't forget about free class features (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a), and consider trading Ride for Tumble (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) as a class skill. I'd use Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), get at least one level in Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon), and say he visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Menacing Demeanor without having to spend a feat on it.

[nedz]

I agree with this in practice (really it's more of a feat-dip), but I think EGG would turn over in his grave if he read this.

Yes, the Fighter in earlier editions was designed to cover all archetypes of heroic warriors. Not so much now.

[killem2]

+1 for crusader, it seems like something you would enjoy.

[BowStreetRunner]

Knight can be a decent tank, although like any class will face opponents who are just going to by unaffected by his class abilities. Check out the Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429) if you haven't already done so.

I've never been totally sold on Annointed Knight, but if you do decide to go that route don't worry about the issue with the Craft (Alchemy) requirement. Although it's true that you are not going to be able to use it to make the alchemical substances in the PHB (alchemical fire, tanglefoot bag) if you are not a spell-caster, fortunately the Annointed Knight class feature does not actually call for an alchemy check. So the ranks in Craft (alchemy) are little more than a fluff pre-requisite.

Sorry to hear that ToB is out of the picture. I think you may want to try to wear down your DM by lobbying for its inclusion whenever you get the chance, as it can be a very fun addition to the game. When compared with full caster classes like Wizard and Cleric, the ToB classes are not at all overpowered, so if that is his objection you should be able to eventually convince him.

[Saskia]

How optimized are your friends characters. I do not generally recommend Knight. It is a trap. If the other players are very poorly optimized or the DM very generous it can work ok.

They're competently built, but none of them are built to be the biggest of badasses. If knight isn't actually any good then I'll definitely be in the dust, but a wildshaping planar shepherd lightning bear druid wearing beastskin dragon scale mail might be a little overboard for this party.



My suggestions would include:
1. CoDZilla. I know you have a cleric, but if he is a casting cleric and you make a hitting things cleric you might not overlap much. Tier 1's can fight better than fighters. Holy Warrior of light screams Cleric. Druids can also be built well for melee.

Huh. There are casting-focused clerics. I forgot non-CoDzillas existed for cleric. Knowing him he probably is focused on casting. With cleric and druid both though I just instinctively go for the throat even without DMM and similar silliness, and I don't want to be "that person" :smallwink:



The tier 3 fighter types:
Psionic Warrior
Wildshape focused Ranger
Duskblade
Totemist.

These are guys who can hold their own in combat, and often exceed what the fighter can do, but at the same time have a lot more options.

I was originally considering a wild shape ranger, but the DM doesn't want UA variants or any other ACF :smallfrown: XPH is also out, as is MoI. God hath spoken, and he said he doesn't want any books revolving around novel mechanics like Fightan Magic, power points, or meldshaping because they don't fit with the intended campaign theme. Feats that touch on those abilities (martial study, wild talent, etc) are okay but not classes focused on those mechanics. Of course I'm fine with that, I would have taken just a straight "no" but a coherent reason is certainly nice. Also we're gonna have a player new to 3.X, so that probably has a lot of influence too. She's familiar with other PnP games and 4E, but still there's no sense intimidating the new person with millions of complex things I suppose.

Duskblade is pretty cool and I can see why it's considered T3, but I can't really see anything that I can't do better with druid except make full use of knowledge devotion and maybe power attack, though that is certainly powerful. Well, I guess duskblade also has the ability to teleport behind you and crush your skull with a shocking grasp greatsword up the pooper which is pretty hilarious and effective (my personal favorite combination) and a lot of things I probably haven't thought of. I mostly wanted this character to be focused on physical prowess, the sort of "a man, a rifle, and a cause" kind of character concept rather than a gish, even with the same psychological profile. With the limitations on character creation (PHB races only as well @_@) it looks like I'll have to change the concept slightly though and duskblade could be really fun.



I've never been totally sold on Annointed Knight, but if you do decide to go that route don't worry about the issue with the Craft (Alchemy) requirement. Although it's true that you are not going to be able to use it to make the alchemical substances in the PHB (alchemical fire, tanglefoot bag) if you are not a spell-caster, fortunately the Annointed Knight class feature does not actually call for an alchemy check. So the ranks in Craft (alchemy) are little more than a fluff pre-requisite.


Thanks, I'll check that out. But I'm not really convinced about anointed knight either anymore. I was interested in it because it was a fighting-focused prestige with a fluff of being a hallowed warrior of light etc but without needing to be part of a church or a follower of any deity, I like that it sort of represents purity of intention, being "good for goodness' sake" :smallbiggrin: A PrC isn't necessary for that, obviously, but it helps.



Sorry to hear that ToB is out of the picture. I think you may want to try to wear down your DM by lobbying for its inclusion whenever you get the chance, as it can be a very fun addition to the game. When compared with full caster classes like Wizard and Cleric, the ToB classes are not at all overpowered, so if that is his objection you should be able to eventually convince him.

He's familiar with it, he just says it renders other fighter classes obsolete. I don't know if that's true, but it certainly reduces the amount of work that goes into making a powerful melee character. Considering I could have probably drawn up a passable crusader in an hour or so but I'm only leaning toward a base class now (duskblade) two days later, I can at least see where he's coming from.


You can completely avoid the Paladin code of conduct by taking the Bone Knight prestige class from Five Nations.

Seems kind of grimdarkish which isn't really my thing, but I guess it doesn't need to be. A necromantic ex-paladin wearing the bones of his enemies as arms and armor who's not morose and brooding could come across as a right psychopath, and that would be fun. It also looks pretty strong, being able to force flanking or leave them to die (again) to cover an escape or anywhere in between. If nothing else creating a platoon of undead warriors is an interesting alternative to smite and the impotent remove disease of the standard paladin kit.