Permanency & Other spells

[McClintock]

We have a WARLOCK in our group trying to get Protection from Evil permed on herself. Would you allow it? (Just to keep those not in the know up to speed... its not on the already approved list)

[sdream]

Rather than deal with exceptions to the spell (which has crazy level requirements for most spells), why not just say that it is far easier to create permanent effects if you have a specially prepared physical object to anchor them on.

(IE - magic items)

There are rules for making magic items with continuous effect, and for making them slotless.

EDIT - You seem to have bolded warlock... assuming you required that warlock to be chaotic or evil, (which never made any sense to me given fey and draconic possible sources of warlock powers), even so is there any reason an evil character would not want to protect themselves from other evils?

Demons may want to harm angels, but other demons are the ones they usually harm, given how much more often they deal with the latter.

[McClintock]

That is a good solution, but the character is asking about perm spells. And my question is more of would one allow, rather than how to do it. The player may have read the module in advance and we are trying to understand why she wants what she is asking for, when it has never been brought up before.

[sdream]

I would always say yes, and calculate a price and required caster level based on the other examples spell level and duration.

(longer duration spells of lower level should be easier/cheaper to set to perpetual).

Has she ever been mind controlled?
Are your enemies mostly strongly evil aligned?

These would make that a good investment, even knowing nothing about what is next. If mind control features heavily in what is next and you suspect she read ahead then feel free to say she has to make an in character roll to decide she needs it and hunt down the proper person.

[McClintock]

+2 deflection = 8000
+2 resistance = 4000
Level 1 x Caster 1 x 2000 x 2(1min/level) = 4000
Slotless = x5

=90000 for 1 minute at a time all day


sound fair?

[McClintock]

yes evil aligned
no, never mind controlled

character has a history of knowing just what she needs, without using spells. If you know what i mean.

[sdream]

1 - No. The deflection and resistance is part of the spell effect, not separately billed, also they only function against truly evil foes (demons, not just drug dealers)

2 - Any time I suspect a character of abusing player knowledge I ask them to make an appropriate roll to decide the accuracy of their characters suspicions.

If not, then this knowledge is rendered useless, either by disallowing the action and asking them not to metagame so hard, or more usefully and less confrontationally by just changing your plans. (Their character does not have the Know (arcana) to prepare for the weakness of this creature, so the creature they meet does not have that weakness.)

I would ask your player to explain how the character knows about all the effects of this spell, and why they think they need it.

EDIT (orializing)

A lot of times folks complain that some spells are too powerful to be made into magic items.

I would say that if they are too good for everyone to use, they should also be too good for spellcasters too.

However, to be fair, do not allow magic items to cheat.

Replicating the effects of a spell means replicating ALL the effects of a spell.

In this case, the item requires a standard V S action to activate protection for one minute, just like the spell.

That means once a minute they have to use at least one hand free to touch the item (unless they wish to roll still spell metamagic into the item, raising the effective spell level).

Also once a minute when they touch the item they must invoke the command word forcefully, not stealthily (unless they wish to roll silent spell metamagic into the item, raising the effective spell level).

[Kelb_Panthera]

+2 deflection = 8000
+2 resistance = 4000
Level 1 x Caster 1 x 2000 x 2(1min/level) = 4000
Slotless = x5

=90000 for 1 minute at a time all day


sound fair?

That's a bit high. Slotless is only X2, IIRC, and the deflection and resistance bonuses should get a discount for limited targets, maybe something along X1/3.

8000 X1/3 = 2667 For the deflection bonus
4000 X1/3 = 1333 for the resistance bonus
1X1X2000 = 2000 x2 = 4000 for the miscellaneous effect.

2667 + 1333 + 4000 = 8000 for a slotted, continuous effect item. 16k for a slottless version.

Command activated would just be 1800. (CL 1 X SL 1 X 1800)

If you're going to jack it all the way up to 90k, just tell the player she can't have the thing already.

[MesiDoomstalker]

A Custom Magic Item of Protection from Evil, as made by the rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm), will have:

For Continuous Effect: 2000 gp
For Command Word: 1800 gp

For uncustomary item slot, it would be 3000 gp and 2700 gp respectively. For slotless item, it would be 4000 gp and 3600 gp respectively.

You do not parse out the effects of the spell. The entire spell is included in the item for the above prices. On meta knowledge, however, I'd tell this player to stop metagaming. Seriously.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A Custom Magic Item of Protection from Evil, as made by the rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm), will have:

For Continuous Effect: 2000 gp
For Command Word: 1800 gp

For uncustomary item slot, it would be 3000 gp and 2700 gp respectively. For slotless item, it would be 4000 gp and 3600 gp respectively.

You do not parse out the effects of the spell. The entire spell is included in the item for the above prices. On meta knowledge, however, I'd tell this player to stop metagaming. Seriously.

The guidlines are guidlines, not hard and fast rules. Piecing out the bonuses of a spell prevents a player from creating cheap continuous spell effects that would otherwise be much more expensive.

E.G. a continuous mage armor effect would only cost 2000, and grant a +4 armor bonus if you priced it like that. This is markedly cheaper than a set of bracers of armor +4 which does the exact same thing.

It would be completely unreasonable in many cases -not- to part out the numeric bonuses of a spell effect for a continuous item.

I would happily allow one of my players to create an item with -just- the mind-control blocking effect of protection from X for the 4000gp cost, or a command activated item for the whole effect for 1800, but 4000 for an always on full-version protection from evil is too cheap.

[bartman]

E.G. a continuous mage armor effect would only cost 2000, and grant a +4 armor bonus if you priced it like that. This is markedly cheaper than a set of bracers of armor +4 which does the exact same thing.

Except that the table also states that AC bonuses are bonus squared * 2000 or 2500, so the price of a bracers of armor work following that formula.

[Acanous]

Prot From X gives an AC bonus, though. That would, by your logic, entail parsing out the price and squaring the AC bonus component.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Except that the table also states that AC bonuses are bonus squared * 2000 or 2500, so the price of a bracers of armor work following that formula.

So? I'm not making a set of bracers of armor. I'm making my belt of mage armor. CL 1 X SL 1 X 2000 = 2000gp to continuously produce the spell effect. Why would I bother with bracers of armor when this much cheaper item can be made?

Hint: I wouldn't.

That's my point. In the cases of spell effects that produce numeric bonuses like that, you always piece out the bonuses, otherwise making custom spell-effect items would almost always be cheaper than producing items with the same effect using the rest of the table and, more importantly, cheap enough to throw off game balance further than it already is.

[Deophaun]

A Custom Magic Item of Protection from Evil, as made by the rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm), will have:

For Continuous Effect: 2000 gp
For Command Word: 1800 gp

For uncustomary item slot, it would be 3000 gp and 2700 gp respectively. For slotless item, it would be 4000 gp and 3600 gp respectively.

You're missing the part where it's a 1 min/cl level spell, so you double the price again for that. 8,000 gp for a continuous use, slotless protection from evil item. Still a bargain, but not by much depending on what they're fighting. (Lots of neutral magical beasts? Not so useful.)

Personally, I'd just allow the permanency, because my campaigns feature spellcasters that like to hurl dispel magic at the drop of a hat.

[Treblain]

I wouldn't allow it, but I don't like the spell, period. Passive immunities to any effect or type of attack should be used sparingly; they take options off the table without requiring any action or constant resource expenditure from the player. It makes for a less fun game.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I wouldn't allow it, but I don't like the spell, period. Passive immunities to any effect or type of attack should be used sparingly; they take options off the table without requiring any action or constant resource expenditure from the player. It makes for a less fun game.

Prot X gets better PR than it really deserves. It doesn't even prevent the control from being established, just from being actively used during its duration. A fiend of possession can climb inside your head just fine while protection from evil is up, he just has to wait for the spell to wear off to take over. It's low enough level that if your enemy has a globe of invulnerability up he can establish and excersize controll if you get too close. It can be dispelled just like any other buff, and dispelling traps are a thing.

It's a good spell, but it doesn't entirely invalidate enchantment and possession as usable plot elements unless your players are paranoid enough to never ever be without it. Not when they sleep, not when they take a bath (not that you see that much), not when the go wenching at ye olde pub, never.

Also, by the time Prot X is always-always up and no longer an active resource drain, dispelling is online. Otherwise it's digging into your WBL via magic item.

[McClintock]

Thanks for all the input, you have given us a lot to chew on.

Side note, man did i miss read the d20srd. X5???!?!? what the hell was I thinking.

[killem2]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226682

This was a cool project that kind of died off sadly but it has a lot of options :).