Quick Tier fix for Paladins and Rangers

[Jade_Lance]

For Paladins, change Spells to read:

Spells
beginning at level 2, a Paladin uses magic as a Cleric of half his or her level, rounded down. For example, a level 5 Paladin uses magic as a level 2 Cleric. Paladins use their own spell list in addition to the Cleric spell list.

For Rangers, change Spells to read:

Spells
beginning at level 2, a Ranger uses magic as a Druid of half his or her level, rounded down. For example, a level 5 Ranger uses magic as a level 2 Druid. Rangers use their own spell list in addition to the Druid spell list.

What effect would this have on Paladin and Ranger Tier value?

[legomaster00156]

Well, it certainly increases their versatility, essentially turning them into gish-in-a-cans. However, they still have to deal with MAD issues. How many Paladins and Rangers do you know with 16+ WIS pre-Epic?

[Chromascope3D]

I really like the Pathfinder paladin fix. Instead of wisdom, they use CHA for spell casting. Sure, it doesn't make much sense mechanically, since its still not spontaneous, but it does help with balancing issues (since CHA is needed for all their other class features).

As for rangers... I personally don't think they should have spells at all, but that's just an opinion, not any sort of fix.

[Oscredwin]

If they don't dump Wis magic items should be able to keep them going all the way up to 16.

[Lord_Gareth]

[QUOTE=Cdr.Fallout;14181476]Sure, it doesn't make much sense mechanically, since its still not spontaneous, but it does help with balancing issues (since CHA is needed for all their other class features)./QUOTE]

Um...what? Why would that not make sense, or as much sense as Wisdom?

[Wings of Peace]

Early game especially with Sword of the Arcane order) Paladin's would be one of the best class options. Late game they would taper off but that would depend heavily on the amount of optimization being used (9ths could be achieved but there wouldn't be as much room to focus on other tricks). The Paladin change would also open up debate on weather or not a Paladin of Mystra could be an Initiate of Mystra. SotAO with IoM would be hella strong but I like the flavor it brings.

Ranger would probably go up a tier or so but I'm not going to comment much on that particular change because I'm biased against the Druid's spell list.

Overall I'll say that your changes leave the Ranger and especially the Paladin significantly stronger early game but they'll still taper off late game in a lower optimization group. A high level group of experienced optimizers could get 9ths and some other tricks out of both classes with your changes hence why I feel these changes are more profound early game for low-op groups and late-game for high-op groups.

[Chromascope3D]

Um...what? Why would that not make sense, or as much sense as Wisdom?

I actually included that as an off-hand comment to deter naysayers (The irony is killing me).

I merely said it because all other CHA spellcasters are spontaneous*, whereas the paladin prepares his spells. Although, that could be a possible change to knock them up a tier. Possibly...

*Unless there's some class I'm unfamiliar with which does otherwise, a likely possibility

[Eldonauran]

*Unless there's some class I'm unfamiliar with which does otherwise, a likely possibility

Duskblade is spontaneous caster that uses Int. He's not a full caster but neither would be these rangers or paladins with this 'quick fix'.

Bah, reading comprehension fail. Ignore me. :smallamused:

[silverwolfer]

I think your fix is fine, for the buff non attacking others type except for dispel needs.

Pally is less mad then a Ranger, and would have further fun.


Let Monk have 1/3 Shaman progression and I think you got a perfect combo.


((Zen Archery for Rangers, Zen Personality for Palidens))

[chaos_redefined]

I'm still confused as to the flavour space that Paladins take up that a melee-focused cleric can't fill. The active class abilities that a paladin gets that a cleric doesn't:
Lay on Hands/Remove Disease
Smite
Mount
Full BAB.

A cleric can use cure spells and eventually heal, which makes up for the lay on hands, he gets spells that fill in the gap of BAB/smite (Divine Power being the most well-known case), and anyone can buy a mount. And the cleric can cast remove disease more often than the paladin can use his ability.

After that, there's some passive features, which are always-on versions of low-level spells.

What am I missing?

[Firechanter]

Rather the other way round. Pal and Rgr should get their full class level as Caster Level, or at the very worst Lvl-3, but not Lvl/2. It makes even the best spells worthless.

Also, I say no matter how many spells you add to their list, if you keep the normal spell progression their magic will always be too little, too late. Keeping them limited to 4 spell levels is fine, but they should get there much sooner. Maybe more like the Bard progression clipped off at the top.

[gorfnab]

You could give Ranger the Mystic Ranger (Dragon#336) casting while keeping the animal companion, combat styles, favored enemy, and whatnot as a normal Ranger. For Paladin give it the casting progression of a Mystic Ranger (sticking with the Paladin spelllist though) and just add in cantrips and 5th level spells chosen from the Cleric list.

[Talionis]

What is the difference between this and the Paladin And Ranger Prestige classes from Unearthed Arcana?

[Jade_Lance]

What is the difference between this and the Paladin And Ranger Prestige classes from Unearthed Arcana?

This is a pretty sharp point. If one wants to play a Paladin/Ranger and have the martial prowess as well as the divine graces, so to speak, using them as Prestige Classes from the UA is probably the best way to go.

[etrpgb]

What about something like this?

Cast Impromptu Divine spells based on Charisma from the union of Cleric and Paladin spell list (if a spell appears in both, use the Paladin version). Spell known and per day as the SRD Bard.

Lay on hands is a swift action.

Turn Undead is as a cleric of the same level.

Remove Disease is per day instead per week.

Bonus feats select from the Divine, Paladin-only, Fighter list...
(put them in the dead levels...)

[Killer Angel]

What about something like this?


If we're going for proposals, here's my personal fix:

1st step: Spell progression.
The paladin maintains the actual spell progression, only, instead of having access to 1st lev. spells at 4th class level, it will begin since its first level. This way, a 11th lev. Pally will begin to casts spells of 4th lev, instead of having to wait 'til 14th lev.

2nd step: number of spells.
The bonus spells and the DC will be based on Cha, instead of Wis.

3rd step: again, spells.
Similarly to a cleric, the paladin can choose ONE domain from among those belonging to his deity, or that represents his spiritual inclinations and abilities, thus gaining access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, as well as the relative granted power.

4th step: the mount.
In addition to the paladin's mount abilities as listed, the mount will gain (as Su abilities) the special power listed by the phantom steed spell (from riding over swampy ground at 8th lev., 'til fly at 14th).

5th step: Battle Blessing at lev. 6.


The reasoning of the OP is different but isn't wrong. Basically, no matter how you look at it, the only way to increase paladin's tier, is to work on the spells.