How is Mystic Ranger "OP"

[silverwolfer]

I can see how it would be tier 3 and stuff, but how is it more powerful then say any other duskblade or beguiler.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not intimately familiar with mystic ranger (no dragon at my table) but as I recall, it's not. Or if it is, then it's only just barely better, by virtue of drawing from a really good list.

Remind me, mystic ranger draws in part from the sorc/wiz list right?

[dextercorvia]

I'm not intimately familiar with mystic ranger (no dragon at my table) but as I recall, it's not. Or if it is, then it's only just barely better, by virtue of drawing from a really good list.

Remind me, mystic ranger draws in part from the sorc/wiz list right?

Only if you mix Sword of the Arcane Order in to it.

[ThiagoMartell]

I'm not intimately familiar with mystic ranger (no dragon at my table) but as I recall, it's not. Or if it is, then it's only just barely better, by virtue of drawing from a really good list.

Remind me, mystic ranger draws in part from the sorc/wiz list right?

Not by default, no. Only with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat.
Before level 10, Mystic Ranger is tier 1.

[dextercorvia]

Not by default, no. Only with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat.
Before level 10, Mystic Ranger is tier 1.

Really just between 6th and 10th.

[Lateral]

Not by default, no. Only with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat.
Before level 10, Mystic Ranger is tier 1.

With Sword of the Arcane Order, it's tier 1 until level 10. Without it, its limited spell list puts it at maybe tier 3, on par with the set-list casters.

[Eldariel]

Really just between 6th and 10th.

You can take SoTAO on 4, right? Why 6?

[Spuddles]

You can take SoTAO on 4, right? Why 6?

Getting a bonus feat at level 4 is hard.

[Eldariel]

Getting a bonus feat at level 4 is hard.

For all your Feats On Weird Levels-needs, there's always Dark Chaos Shuffle :smalltongue:

[dextercorvia]

For all your Feats On Weird Levels-needs, there's always Dark Chaos Shuffle :smalltongue:

A trifle expensive for a 4th level character.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're beginning play at 4th+ level, you can take a flaw at 4th and still be taking it 'when creating a character' which doesn't need any DM approval or jumping through flaming hoops.

You could accumulate enough Taint per Heroes of Horror to get a bonus feat at 4th level, but you would need to be an evil outsider or undead or maybe a few others to avoid the considerable drawbacks of that level of taint.

Mystic Ranger can be combined with Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) for even more versatility. You would probably be in the form of a Fleshraker dinosaur most of the time, unless you take Master of Many Forms. Without MoMF you'll want Natural Spell at 6th, assuming you can get Sword of the Arcane Order before that.

In E6 a Wild Shape Mystic Ranger 6 with Sword of the Arcane Order, Natural Spell, and Extra Wild Shape is pretty much the standard for the most powerful character possible.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Okay then. Barring SotAO, mystic ranger is decidedly not any better than any of the T3 classes mentioned in the OP.

I am at least remembering correctly that it gets spell progression at the same or a similar rate to a bard, right?

[nedz]

No, it gets fast spell progression until 10th, unfortunately it only has spells of levels 0 through 5 and so it plateaus after this point.

Ed: whilst technically T1 up until 10th, it is weaker than Spirit Shaman.
It uses the Ranger spell list, augmented by some cantrips and a few level 5 spells.

Highlights of the 5ths

Awaken
Baleful Polymorph
Control Winds
Wall of Thorns

[ThiagoMartell]

Okay then. Barring SotAO, mystic ranger is decidedly not any better than any of the T3 classes mentioned in the OP.
I dunno. Once you get wildshape in the mix, it gets nasty. Wildshape makes a Druid chassis T3 by itself - wildshape plus full bab and spells...

[Snowbluff]

BaB doesn't really affect Tiers.

[Tvtyrant]

BaB doesn't really affect Tiers.

I think it is part of what decides the line between tier 6 and tier 5. Monk wouldn't suck so much if it could hit things.

[ThiagoMartell]

BaB doesn't really affect Tiers.

Except when it does. :smallamused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

I dunno. Once you get wildshape in the mix, it gets nasty. Wildshape makes a Druid chassis T3 by itself - wildshape plus full bab and spells...

True, but then you're not talking about just mystic ranger. You're talking mystic wildshape ranger. That combo may reach the upper end of T3, but the limited spell-list prevents it from making T2.

A mystic ranger of the arcane order is probably at the bottom of T2. The wiz/sorc list is just that good. Adding wildshape at that point won't be adding much, but it's still nice.

Of course none of this moves the ranger from his seat in T4. This is all talk about a mild to moderately optimized ranger. (you don't hit high-op until you start talking specific builds ala feats, PrC's, etc)

......... I hadn't realized that the ranger's op-ceiling was quite that high.

[ThiagoMartell]

I hadn't realized that the ranger's op-ceiling was quite that high.
Both Ranger and Paladin have very high ceilings.
Sidenote: I think Rogue has the worst ceiling among core classes.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Mystic Ranger gets 0-level spells at 1st, 1st level spells at 2nd, and access to each new spell level at each even-numbered level. At levels 2-11 it has the same level spells as a Sorcerer, with fewer spells/day but on the Ranger chassis.

Without SotAO I don't think it can make it past Tier 3, even with Wild Shape. Even with SotAO I wouldn't consider it above Tier 2 up to about level 10, and beyond that it's still probably Tier 3 unless you can somehow manage 9th level spells.

[ThiagoMartell]

Mystic Ranger gets 0-level spells at 1st, 1st level spells at 2nd, and access to each new spell level at each even-numbered level. At levels 2-11 it has the same level spells as a Sorcerer, with fewer spells/day but on the Ranger chassis.

Without SotAO I don't think it can make it past Tier 3, even with Wild Shape. Even with SotAO I wouldn't consider it above Tier 2 up to about level 10, and beyond that it's still probably Tier 3 unless you can somehow manage 9th level spells.
Around levels 4-11, I think it's solidly t1 (with SotAO, of course). You're basically non-homebrew Lightning Warrior, after all.
At 12+, I agree completely with you. Top of T3, very close to T2 maybe, but not quite there.

[gorfnab]

Mystic Ranger Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1543.0)
Mystic Ranger - The Ultimate Gish? (thread with some neat build ideas towards the end) (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868838/Mystic_Ranger_-_The_ultimate_gish?pg=1)

One thing Mystic Ranger is good for is meeting prereqs for prestige classes. Between BAB, skills, and casting you can get into a lot of different prestige classes. Granted though you casting flattens out at level 10 with only 5th level spells.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Around levels 4-11, I think it's solidly t1 (with SotAO, of course). You're basically non-homebrew Lightning Warrior, after all.
At 12+, I agree completely with you. Top of T3, very close to T2 maybe, but not quite there.

If it gets planar binding (even lesser), it's T2 IMO. Calling effects are real game-busters, and the ability to break the game like that is the hallmark that puts characters above T3. Nevermind polymorph and its ilk. Even just skillful use of illusion can be game shattering if the DM doesn't know how to handle it well. Not getting 9ths is hardly the end of the world.


...... actually, getting 9ths (and to a lesser extent 8ths) is the end of the world. It all but litterally breaks under the weight of that much power and versatility. :smalltongue:

[Darrin]

Getting a bonus feat at level 4 is hard.

Frostblood Half-Orc FTW (although the Int penalty bites).

[dextercorvia]

Frostblood Half-Orc FTW (although the Int penalty bites).

That doesn't help you pick it up at both ECL and Ranger level 4, though.

You get Endurance (or the replacement feat via Frostblood) at Ranger 3. SotAO requires Ranger 4.

I figure someone dedicated to getting SotAO as early as possible (at any cost) can probably get it at 4, via Taint, or other shenanigans. ECL5 is probably the earliest through usual tricks, but would most likely require you to drop a caster level.

That is why I said 6. For most, the opportunity cost is too high for the hoops you would have to jump through in order to make it happen earlier.

[Snowbluff]

Flaws are assigned at character creation. If you start at level 4, you can have it.

[toapat]

Flaws are assigned at character creation. If you start at level 4, you can have it.

Technically, no, they dont.

Flaws allow you to take any feat that you qualify for at first level. DCFS is about the only way to get SotAO at earliest opportunity, because it lets you throw out endurance (but if we are DCFSing Endurance, why the hell are we doing it for such a "weak" feat, endurance is in a "No prerequisites necessary" bonus feat slot. We should be taking Dragon Wildshape here)

[nedz]

Well it is prepared spell casting, hence the view that it is T1.
But Ranger spells, so yeah - not game breaking.
Though you can get +20 Hide at 5th, from spells, without even trying, which might break some games.

One of the issues with it is that the 5th level spells were never extended beyond core.

[nedz]

Sidenote: I think Rogue has the worst ceiling among core classes.

There's a Fighter outside who would like a word with you.

[toapat]

There's a Fighter outside who would like a word with you.

I would have called that out, except, hes right. Fighter does have more vertical movement then rogue, both because of better support and because the rogue ACFs dont really add mobility last i knew. i may be wrong though as i am AFB

[Darrin]

That doesn't help you pick it up at both ECL and Ranger level 4, though.

You get Endurance (or the replacement feat via Frostblood) at Ranger 3. SotAO requires Ranger 4.


Mystic Ranger gets Endurance at Ranger 4. (Their feat-based class features are delayed a level.)

[dextercorvia]

Mystic Ranger gets Endurance at Ranger 4. (Their feat-based class features are delayed a level.)

I didn't catch that. I thought it just delayed weapon styles.

[nedz]

I would have called that out, except, hes right. Fighter does have more vertical movement then rogue, both because of better support and because the rogue ACFs dont really add mobility last i knew. i may be wrong though as i am AFB

I don't think that there is too much between them, its just that I see people take more levels in Rogue than Fighter. Rogue is a career, Fighter a dip.

[toapat]

I didn't catch that. I thought it just delayed weapon styles.

it doesnt matter though, the Endurance feat slot is "Does not need to meet feat prerequisites". you can actually get SotAO with vanilla ranger at level 3 as a result, if you can afford the DCFS, which i dont know the cost of, but Pazuzu could pretty likely grant one.


I don't think that there is too much between them, its just that I see people take more levels in Rogue than Fighter. Rogue is a career, Fighter a dip.

Class features>feats

[nedz]

I didn't catch that. I thought it just delayed weapon styles.

They lose:

Martial melee and Shield proficiencies.
AC


The following are delayed by one level

FE
Combat Styles (all 3)


They gain

Better spellcasting
Spellcraft

[dextercorvia]

They lose:

Martial melee and Shield proficiencies.
AC


The following are delayed by one level

FE
Combat Styles (all 3)


They gain

Better spellcasting
Spellcraft


Darrin said that it also delayed Endurance by a level. That is what I was referring to.

[dextercorvia]

it doesnt matter though, the Endurance feat slot is "Does not need to meet feat prerequisites". you can actually get SotAO with vanilla ranger at level 3 as a result, if you can afford the DCFS, which i dont know the cost of, but Pazuzu could pretty likely grant one.


I would say 'citation needed', but instead:


If a frostblood orc or half-orc would later gain Endurance as a bonus feat, he can select any other feat for which he qualifies.

[toapat]

I would say 'citation needed', but instead:

im talking about the Endurance feat from ranger, not from the half orc. granted, i didnt check to see if endurance did have prerequisites (which i thought it did, but it doesnt, so cant actually be used for the DCFS target)

[darksolitaire]

Both Ranger and Paladin have very high ceilings.

Ok, I'll bite. I know that Paladin can cast his spells as swift action with battle blessing, gets turn undead to fuel feats including divine metamagic, can be SAD through removing need for either Charisma or Wisdom. Is there something else in there?

[dextercorvia]

im talking about the Endurance feat from ranger, not from the half orc. granted, i didnt check to see if endurance did have prerequisites (which i thought it did, but it doesnt, so cant actually be used for the DCFS target)

That is not how that feat swap works.

[Draz74]

Ok, I'll bite. I know that Paladin can cast his spells as swift action with battle blessing, gets turn undead to fuel feats including divine metamagic, can be SAD through removing need for either Charisma or Wisdom. Is there something else in there?

I'm guessing either Leadership cheese (synergy with Special Mount, a la Supermount), or RKV following a 1-level dip in Crusader?

The tricks you mentioned, and similar ones, can make the Paladin competitive in a typical mid-op T3 game. The two things above are the only ways I can think of to get higher power than that, based on Paladin features. (Other than Pun-Pun, of course. Paladin is, technically, the most powerful class, thanks to Pazuzu's prejudices. But nobody cares.)

Nitpick: I don't think there's a way to completely remove the Paladin's Wisdom dependence, other than giving up spellcasting entirely through a sub-par ACF.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That is not how that feat swap works.

From Races of the Dragon:

Endurance: Frostblood orcs and half-orcs have Endurance
as a bonus feat. If a frostblood orc or half-orc would later
gain Endurance as a bonus feat, he can select any other feat
for which he qualifies.

Confirming Mystic Ranger does get Endurance at 4th level instead of 3rd. This is definitely a legit way to get SotAO at 4th level.

[dextercorvia]

Confirming Mystic Ranger does get Endurance at 4th level instead of 3rd. This is definitely a legit way to get SotAO at 4th level.

Thanks. Good to know. In that case, amend my statement to be T1 beginning at 4th level.

[nedz]

Darrin said that it also delayed Endurance by a level. That is what I was referring to.

:smallredface: I'll try again

They Lose

Martial melee and Shield proficiencies.
AC
FE 5


The following are delayed by one level

Endurance
Combat Styles (all 3)
FE 1


FE 2 - FE 4 are delayed by varying amounts

They gain

Better spellcasting
Spellcraft

[Grendus]

Ok, I'll bite. I know that Paladin can cast his spells as swift action with battle blessing, gets turn undead to fuel feats including divine metamagic, can be SAD through removing need for either Charisma or Wisdom. Is there something else in there?

Among other things, SotAO let's him cast wizard/sorc spells. He can get some awesome mounts from splats, as well as awesome smite which let's him trip when he uses smite evil. Turn Evil can power devotion feats and DMM. Many splats add incredibly powerful paladin spells. I'm afb, but I'm sure there are lots of other ways to beef up a Paladin.

[Coidzor]

Among other things, SotAO let's him cast wizard/sorc spells. He can get some awesome mounts from splats, as well as awesome smite which let's him trip when he uses smite evil. Turn Evil can power devotion feats and DMM. Many splats add incredibly powerful paladin spells. I'm afb, but I'm sure there are lots of other ways to beef up a Paladin.

He is a key component of the supermount, after all.

[darksolitaire]

Nitpick: I don't think there's a way to completely remove the Paladin's Wisdom dependence, other than giving up spellcasting entirely through a sub-par ACF.

I was remembering Dynamic Spellcaster feat which keys spellcasting to charisma, but that turned out to be 3rd party Dragon Lance material.


Among other things, SotAO let's him cast wizard/sorc spells. He can get some awesome mounts from splats, as well as awesome smite which let's him trip when he uses smite evil. Turn Evil can power devotion feats and DMM. Many splats add incredibly powerful paladin spells. I'm afb, but I'm sure there are lots of other ways to beef up a Paladin.

I'm somehow been forgetting the whole SotAO for Paladin, as two Ranger variants have better spell progression, but with Battle Blessing it's strong.

Supermount, another thing I'm forgetting out of personal preference, as I consider it a tad distasteful for actual games.:smalltongue:

[Kazyan]

Mystic SotAO Ranger loses a lot of Ranger toys for two types of spellcasting anyway, so...would going into Geomancer for MAD-soothing be feasible? It wouldn't delay casting in this case.

[toapat]

I'm somehow been forgetting the whole SotAO for Paladin, as two Ranger variants have better spell progression, but with Battle Blessing it's strong.

Supermount, another thing I'm forgetting out of personal preference, as I consider it a tad distasteful for actual games.:smalltongue:

SotAO is better for paladin, if only because the Prerequisites arent absolutely terrible like for Ranger.

Supermount also isnt nearly as bad as Ubermount or Ultimate mount though, as supermount only is Paladin mount + Druid's companion

[Urpriest]

For the Paladin optimization topic, RAW they can get access to a 9HD mount at level 5 via Sandstorm's Diprotodon.

[toapat]

For the Paladin optimization topic, RAW they can get access to a 9HD mount at level 5 via Sandstorm's Diprotodon.

except, the mount is only as uber as you decide to focus specifically on it. Super/Uber/Ultimate mount dont go SotAO because paladin spellcasting is considered superfluous for them. Typically it is better to just trade out the mount

[Urpriest]

except, the mount is only as uber as you decide to focus specifically on it. Super/Uber/Ultimate mount dont go SotAO because paladin spellcasting is considered superfluous for them. Typically it is better to just trade out the mount

Eh, depends. I don't know quite what the mount covers in ACF-space, but a 11HD meat shield at level 5 is certainly tasty, regardless of whether you actually put the effort into stacking extra benefits on top of it.

[toapat]

Eh, depends. I don't know quite what the mount covers in ACF-space, but a 11HD meat shield at level 5 is certainly tasty, regardless of whether you actually put the effort into stacking extra benefits on top of it.

the mount ACFs are Charging Smite (3x Paladin level to smites on charges), Divine Spirit (LoH/healing fix, General paladin buff and typically for pure paladin), Sword of Celestia (PF's divine bond, but better and for Paladin prestieging), Underdark Knight (Mobility, earthglide), or an animal/outsider companion (Dragon 310/312 paladin varients).

a Mystic Wildshape ranger who trades their pet for Distracting attack and focuses on ranged combat or Strong Arm seems to be a quite good class.

[nedz]

a Mystic Wildshape ranger who trades their pet for Distracting attack and focuses on ranged combat or Strong Arm seems to be a quite good class.

Mystic Rangers do not get a pet, see above.

[toapat]

Mystic Rangers do not get a pet, see above.

ah, i missed that when i was looking through an old crystal keep index.

[Answerer]

Technically, no, they dont.

Flaws allow you to take any feat that you qualify for at first level.
Technically, it doesn't say anything about being restricted to feats you qualify for at 1st level anywhere in Unearthed Arcana.


Flaws are like the flip side of feats. Whereas a feat enables a character to be better than normal at performing a task (or even to do something that normal characters can't), a flaw restricts a character's capabilities or imposes a penalty of some sort.

A player may select up to two flaws when creating a character. After 1st level, a character cannot take on additional flaws unless the game master specifically allows it (for examples of times when doing this might be appropriate, see Character Traits). Each flaw a player selects entitles his character to a bonus feat. In other words, when you create a character, if you select two flaws, you can also take two bonus feats beyond those your character would be normally entitled to.

Unlike traits, flaws are entirely negative in their impact on a character's capabilities.(emphasis mine)

Note the complete and utter lack of qualification on the bolded section.


Now, you could argue that you cannot take feats after 1st level without DM approval, on the basis of the second sentence of the second paragraph (an argument distinct from the one you are making). However, you'd still be wrong because those are specifically "additional" flaws – that is, beyond the limit of two chosen at character creation mentioned in the previous sentence. The only restriction on when those first two flaws are taken is that they're taken during character creation. The only restriction on the corresponding feats that you get is that you get them when you take the flaw and must meet its prerequisites.

So yeah, as long as we're being technical, your statement is verifiably false.

[Wings of Peace]

Does SotAO allow a ranger to take levels in Swiftblade? I'd play that.

[toapat]

Does SotAO allow a ranger to take levels in Swiftblade? I'd play that.

it depends on the DM, personally i say SotAO is only preparing the wizard spells as ranger/paladin spells.

Paladin and Ranger both require a long conversation with the DM on SotAO, because of how vague the feat is in terms of how it itself works.

[starship1]

Can a Mystic SotAO ranger cast wizard spells with an 8 wis?

does he qualify for Geomancer?

does he incur ASF?

[toapat]

Can a Mystic SotAO ranger cast wizard spells with an 8 wis?

does he qualify for Geomancer?

does he incur ASF?

1: no, you have to have 11 int and 11 wisdom to prepare a first level wizard spell with SotAO, because you have to have the wisdom spellslots

2+3: DM defined.

[LordBlades]

1: no, you have to have 11 int and 11 wisdom to prepare a first level wizard spell with SotAO, because you have to have the wisdom spellslots

2+3: DM defined.

With SotAO wisdom only determins your bonus spells, the ability to actually cast is governed by Int. Since mystic ranger doesn't have 0 spells per day in the table at any level, he can cast with 8 wis just fine, he only gets no bonus spells.

[toapat]

With SotAO wisdom only determins your bonus spells, the ability to actually cast is governed by Int. Since mystic ranger doesn't have 0 spells per day in the table at any level, he can cast with 8 wis just fine, he only gets no bonus spells.

actually, you are entirely wrong. you dont have wizard spell slots, you have to have the wisdom to be able to prepare ranger spells to prepare wizard spells of that level, this is the only thing that SotAO actually does explain fully, is that you need 10+spell level int to prepare wizard spells in ranger/paladin spell slots, which you need 10+slot level wis to prepare slots. It doesnt explain if they are prepared as divine or arcane, as paladin/ranger or wizard spells, or whether it even grants a spellbook. that is why SotAO needs a long conversation with the DM

[LordBlades]

actually, you are entirely wrong. you dont have wizard spell slots, you have to have the wisdom to be able to prepare ranger spells to prepare wizard spells of that level, this is the only thing that SotAO actually does explain fully, is that you need 10+spell level int to prepare wizard spells in ranger/paladin spell slots, which you need 10+slot level wis to prepare slots. It doesnt explain if they are prepared as divine or arcane, as paladin/ranger or wizard spells, or whether it even grants a spellbook. that is why SotAO needs a long conversation with the DM

Where in the rules does it actually state you need a certain stat to 'prepare slots'? All I've ever found regarding spell casting and stats is 'you need 10+spell level in stat to prepare the spell' (which SotAO overwrites), 'DC is 10+spell level+stat'(which SotAO overwrites) and 'you get bonus spells due to a high stat' (which SotAO doesn't overwrite).

[toapat]

Where in the rules does it actually state you need a certain stat to 'prepare slots'? All I've ever found regarding spell casting and stats is 'you need 10+spell level in stat to prepare the spell' (which SotAO overwrites), 'DC is 10+spell level+stat'(which SotAO overwrites) and 'you get bonus spells due to a high stat' (which SotAO doesn't overwrite).

SotAO overwrites what you need to prepare a spell in the slot, not actually the required attribute to have that slot.

Explaining how it works in words is rather difficult, so ill try to list it out:

A Mystic Wildshape ranger of 11th level requires a wisdom of 15 in order to prepare spells. lets make our examble Druid Lite have a wisdom of 14, so he actually doesnt gain 5th level spell slots

He has an intellect of 15, so he can prepare upto 5th level wizard/sorc spells. Because he does not have 5th level spell slots for mystic ranger, as his wisdom is too low, our ranger cant prepare 5th level wiz/sorc spells because there are no spell slots to prepare them in.

Ok, basically the way vancian works is this: There are 4 variables that describe spells: Minimum attribute required, Attribute to Prepare, Bonus spell slots, and Spellcasting DC.

Minimum attribute required and Attribute required to prepare are not typically broken apart in 3.5, so you dont typically see this happening. Minimum required to prepare is what attribute you are required to have in order to gain the granted spellcasting slots of a class. Attribute required is only really seen with Sword of the Arcane Order, where you require an Intellect score of a certain number in order to prepare a spell in spell slots.

DCs are an equation based off of an attribute

Bonus spell slots are typically linked to Minimum required attribute and attribute required, although the Archivist is an example of a class which doesnt follow the typical scenario.

[LordBlades]

SotAO overwrites what you need to prepare a spell in the slot, not actually the required attribute to have that slot.

Explaining how it works in words is rather difficult, so ill try to list it out:

A Mystic Wildshape ranger of 11th level requires a wisdom of 15 in order to prepare spells. lets make our examble Druid Lite have a wisdom of 14, so he actually doesnt gain 5th level spell slots

He has an intellect of 15, so he can prepare upto 5th level wizard/sorc spells. Because he does not have 5th level spell slots for mystic ranger, as his wisdom is too low, our ranger cant prepare 5th level wiz/sorc spells because there are no spell slots to prepare them in.

You still haven't pointed out anything in the rules claiming that actually having spell slots requires a minimum value in your casting stat. Every reference I could find in the SRD points to preparing or casting spells, not actually possessing the slots (apart from bonus slots ofc).

I can find no text backing up the interpretation that a first level wizard with 8 int has no spell slots. The way I understand it he does, he just can't prepare anything in them.

[toapat]

You still haven't pointed out anything in the rules claiming that actually having spell slots requires a minimum value in your casting stat.

in order to prepare a Ranger spell slot, you must have a wisdom of 10+spell level.

In order to prepare a spell, from a spell book you must have an int of 10+ spell level in a spell slot with which you have.

If a ranger only has a 13 Wisdom, then they do not have granted or bonus 4th level spell slots, and so they can not prepare 4th level spells.

[LordBlades]

in order to prepare a Ranger spell slot, you must have a wisdom of 10+spell level.

In order to prepare a spell, from a spell book you must have an int of 10+ spell level in a spell slot with which you have.

If a ranger only has a 13 Wisdom, then they do not have granted or bonus 4th level spell slots, and so they can not prepare 4th level spells.

Ciation needed. Where does it say that if you can't cast spells of a given level (due to stat limitation) you don't gain the slots?

[dextercorvia]

in order to prepare a Ranger spell slot, you must have a wisdom of 10+spell level.

In order to prepare a spell, from a spell book you must have an int of 10+ spell level in a spell slot with which you have.

If a ranger only has a 13 Wisdom, then they do not have granted or bonus 4th level spell slots, and so they can not prepare 4th level spells.

This is wrong.

What do you think you mean 'prepare a Ranger spell slot'? This is not a defined game term.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Actually Toapat is right, to a degree, if a 4th level ranger had Wis 8 he wouldn't receive a spell slot since he only would had the bonus slots; but he would gain a spell slot at level 6 (check the rangers table and the following entry on the SRD

When Table: The Ranger indicates that the ranger gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level.

[toapat]

Ciation needed. Where does it say that if you can't cast spells of a given level (due to stat limitation) you don't gain the slots?


This is wrong.

What do you think you mean 'prepare a Ranger spell slot'? This is not a defined game term.

looking at game terminology, im actually using the wrong terms (and are slightly wrong in how said terms work), but these are what are they are, actually:

*Learn: You must, as a player of DnD, choose a spell from a spell list which your chosen class learns spells from. (I am not sure if this specifically has an attribute requirement)
*Cast: This is the act of expending a spell slot in order to generate the effects of a spell. this requires an attribute of 10+slot level in order to do. With a below minimum attribute, a spell slot may be prepared, but can not be cast. this is because they are separate actions which require separate(but typically linked) prerequisites.
*Prepare: The act of assigning a spell effect to a spell slot of appropriet level, this requires an attribute of 10+slot level in order to perform, and may be done even if you do not meet the minimum requirements for casting said spell slot.
DC: the check against which an opponent must roll in order to resist a spell
Bonus spell slots: Additional spell slots gained from high attribute.

*: Learn, Prepare, and Cast are not typically assigned separate attributes, but may themselves be, i know of no classes that separate these 3 actions, although SotAO lets you prepare a wizard spell to be cast from a ranger or paladin's spell slots.

In short:

I was correct, while being wrong about why i was correct (getting the order backwards):

A ranger with 18 int and 6 wis can prepare upto 8th level wizard spells in his ranger spell slots. he can not cast these spells because his wisdom is too low to cast spells from them.

[dextercorvia]

I was correct, while being wrong about why i was correct (getting the order backwards):


Your conclusion (that a SotAO ranger still needs Wisdom to cast wizard spells was correct. However your reasons, terminology, and at least one of your statement was flat wrong.


in order to prepare a Ranger spell slot

You don't prepare spell slots, you prepare spells.


If a ranger only has a 13 Wisdom, then they do not have granted or bonus 4th level spell slots, and so they can not prepare 4th level spells.

This is just wrong. You still get the granted spell slots, you just can't fill them with 4th level spells.


A ranger with 18 int and 6 wis can prepare upto 8th level wizard spells in his ranger spell slots. he can not cast these spells because his wisdom is too low to cast spells from them.

This would be correct if you had kept your numbers reasonable, or if you were doing serious shenanigans with extra slot. A ranger with 8th level spell slots?

[toapat]

This would be correct if you had kept your numbers reasonable, or if you were doing serious shenanigans with extra slot. A ranger with 8th level spell slots?

there are tricks with which to do it, primarily involving Dragonwrought uberbold to get a pre-epic Improved Spell capacity.

typically, if it doesnt really make sense, it has something to do with kobolds.

[nedz]

there are tricks with which to do it, primarily involving Dragonwrought uberbold to get a pre-epic Improved Spell capacity.

typically, if it doesnt really make sense, it has something to do with kobolds.

I would have thought that the standard cheese of Sanctum Spell/Earth Spell/Versatile Caster would suffice. Strictly TO I would hope.

[dextercorvia]

I would have thought that the standard cheese of Sanctum Spell/Earth Spell/Versatile Caster would suffice. Strictly TO I would hope.

It would, and hence I said that it would work with shenanigans. However, it has no place in a discussion over the basic casting stat requirements.

[toapat]

I would have thought that the standard cheese of Sanctum Spell/Earth Spell/Versatile Caster would suffice. Strictly TO I would hope.

not for getting 8th level spells.

realizing that SotAO spells are cast as divine does have the nice side effect of making Battle Blessing rediculous

[dextercorvia]

not for getting 8th level spells.

realizing that SotAO spells are cast as divine* does have the nice side effect of making Battle Blessing rediculous

*Citation needed.

How does Battle Blessing help you cast Wizard spells?


You can cast most of your paladin spells faster
than normal.

[Snowbluff]

*Citation needed.

How does Battle Blessing help you cast Wizard spells?

Agreed. The Battle Blessing only works for spells on the Paladin spell lists (and it's the worse supported list from the Core classes, as well).

[toapat]

*Citation needed.

How does Battle Blessing help you cast Wizard spells?

you are casting spells from the Wizard list as Paladin spells. Unless somewhere else it explicitly states that a (Class)'s Spells are spells found on their spell list.

[dextercorvia]

you are casting spells from the Wizard list as Paladin spells. Unless somewhere else it explicitly states that a (Class)'s Spells are spells found on their spell list.


You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare wizard spells.

Not spells from the wizard list, not as paladin spells -- just wizard spells.

[toapat]

Not spells from the wizard list, not as paladin spells -- just wizard spells.

actually, it makes the feat nonfunctional, at least to rules lawyers.

also, you are not casting them as wizard, but as ranger/paladin spells. Preparing, and casting, are again, different actions

3.5 would have been well served by a terminology thesaurus