3.5 flurry of blows, two weapon fighting, and natural weapons

[DraxDauragon]

I've been searching all around the net and have gotten a million different answers to this. Looking for a difinitive answer to present my dm. Pc is monk6/druid14 main weapon is shurikens. Assume character has all twf feats, far shot, rapid shot, and weapon finesse.

So the main questions are if I'm in wild shape can I use flurry of blows followed by bab then twf and finish with natural weapons. My current dm says that flurry cannot be followed by twf his reasoning is that a monk is one weapon and thust can't use off hand attacks because there is no secondary weapon. If the body were to be considered multipul weapons then the monk could get 8 or more off hand attacks, one for each body part. When asking about natural weapons after flurry of blows he stated no, but I could use the natural weapons within flurry of blows instead of unarmed strikes because the natural weapons are an extention of the body.

I've searched many forums and once I get to my computer ill start listing sources. Every site seems to have a different answer ex; flurry cannot use natural weapons because they arnot unarmed strikes nor monk weapons.

My second question is when I'm in human form using shurikens is my threat range increased far shot? And if I didn't use rapid shot on my turn could I use it in response to an attack of oportunity? I doubt it but I figure its worth asking.

Thanks to all for all your help!

[kitcik]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a

[Darrin]

So the main questions are if I'm in wild shape can I use flurry of blows followed by bab then twf and finish with natural weapons. My current dm says that flurry cannot be followed by twf his reasoning is that a monk is one weapon and thust can't use off hand attacks because there is no secondary weapon.


I'm working on a handbook that will address all of this. Unfortunately, it's not finished yet... anyway. As far as combining Flurry + TWF, the D&D FAQ (which is not official rules or errata) says that yes you can:




The description of the flurry of blows ability says there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean, exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to flurry attacks?

Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack, even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra attacks, or both. The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists. When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting (see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed strike hits.

To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry, the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, –2 flurry, +2 Strength).

An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so the monk suffers an additional –2 penalty for both the flurry and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks, each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry are primary attacks and add the monk’s full Strength bonus to damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monk’s Strength bonus to damage (+1). If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry (in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available for the flurry and vice versa.






Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her penalties on attack rolls?

A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for two-weapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows. For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8 penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand).

If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks, each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to be with her off-hand weapon.

A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows. Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this: +11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.



However, the sticking point is "can unarmed strike be both your primary and offhand attack at the same time"? Unfortunately, the FAQ doesn't really answer this question. This boils down to whether your consider a monk's unarmed strike to represent a single striking surface, or multiple striking surfaces. There is no RAW (Rules As Written) on this, so it's up to your DM. It sounds like he's already ruled against this.



When asking about natural weapons after flurry of blows he stated no, but I could use the natural weapons within flurry of blows instead of unarmed strikes because the natural weapons are an extention of the body.


The general consensus on this is no, natural weapons are not listed among the special monk weapons, so you can't use them on the same turn when you flurry.

Note: There is a feat called Unorthodox Flurry in the Dragon Compendium book that would allow a single natural weapon to be used in a flurry. However, it sounds like he may already allow this... although if he's allowing you to use a natural weapon as your primary weapon in a flurry, then I don't see why he's not allowing unarmed strike as an offhand attack. If your primary weapon is "claw", then why can't "unarmed strike" be your offhand?



My second question is when I'm in human form using shurikens is my threat range increased far shot?


I'm not sure what you mean by "threat range", either you mean the reach of your threatened squares, or the critical threat range when you have to confirm a critical. In either case, no, using shurikens has no effect on your reach or your critical range.



And if I didn't use rapid shot on my turn could I use it in response to an attack of oportunity? I doubt it but I figure its worth asking.


No, you can't use Rapid Shot on an AoO. Multiple attacks can only be used during a full-round attack. Also, AoOs must be melee attacks, not ranged attacks.

There is a feat that allows you to attack with two weapons on an AoO, however: Double Hit, in the Miniatures Handbook.

[Urpriest]

I've been searching all around the net and have gotten a million different answers to this. Looking for a difinitive answer to present my dm. Pc is monk6/druid14 main weapon is shurikens. Assume character has all twf feats, far shot, rapid shot, and weapon finesse.

So the main questions are if I'm in wild shape can I use flurry of blows followed by bab then twf and finish with natural weapons. My current dm says that flurry cannot be followed by twf his reasoning is that a monk is one weapon and thust can't use off hand attacks because there is no secondary weapon. If the body were to be considered multipul weapons then the monk could get 8 or more off hand attacks, one for each body part.

Regardless of the rest, this is blatantly false. No matter how many weapons you have, the number of off-hand attacks you get is limited by the number of arms you have in your natural form, either two (for which you have TWF) or multiple (for which you have MWF). Neither gives you more attacks beyond those given by those feats.

The question of whether a Monk can TWF unarmed strike/unarmed strike is a different one. It's somewhat contentious. Curmudgeon will probably enter the thread and give his take on it. My opinion is that there is enough precedent through things like Street Fighter Barbarian that it was intended, and that enhancing one unarmed strike allows you to TWF or MWF for as many attacks as those feats give you. But I concede that this is less well supported than Curmudgeon's perspective, though I do find some of his reasoning specious.


When asking about natural weapons after flurry of blows he stated no, but I could use the natural weapons within flurry of blows instead of unarmed strikes because the natural weapons are an extention of the body.

This logic is irrelevant, as your DM should be well aware. Remember that D&D is a game, not a novel. The question is not what is "reasonable", but what the rules say, and as an extension what leads to a fun game. Natural weapons are rather obviously distinct from unarmed strikes, operating on very different rules.


I've searched many forums and once I get to my computer ill start listing sources. Every site seems to have a different answer ex; flurry cannot use natural weapons because they arnot unarmed strikes nor monk weapons.

Flurry indeed cannot be used with things that are not unarmed strikes or monk weapons, which is another reason why your DM's reasoning is not a plausible conclusion someone could arrive at. That said, people argue about whether the following:

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons
means that a Monk cannot use non-monk weapons in the same full attack as a flurry, or only that they cannot use non-monk weapons as part of the extra attacks granted by a flurry. Ask your DM, once he has actually read the rules in question.


My second question is when I'm in human form using shurikens is my threat range increased far shot? And if I didn't use rapid shot on my turn could I use it in response to an attack of oportunity? I doubt it but I figure its worth asking.

Thanks to all for all your help!

Far Shot does nothing to threat range, it affects range increments. One is for crits, the other is about distance.

Rapid shot is part of a full attack, there is no reason to expect that it could be used with an attack of opportunity.

[DraxDauragon]

@kitcik that link was actually one of my refrences and as you see the consenis disagrees with the statements of that link...

To everyone asking about threat range I was talking about squares. I was curious if shurikens could be used in the same way a spiked chain is. By this I mean a spiked chain gains Aoo on characters that are on ajacent squares and squares even further. But if projectiles cannot act on Aoo then I belive that answers that question.

[kitcik]

the consenis (sic) disagrees with the statements of that link...

I disagree. I think you are getting your "consensus" from an inappropriate group.

[DraxDauragon]

@kitcik I'm do not know who is correct or incorrect. That is the problem, between my own research and the research of others I cannot find something difinative. And my only problem with the link you posted (which I completly understand is written by the rule makers) is that 1 its still so murky in terms of what it defines that there are too many interpretations and 2 it doesn't address the specifics of my question which is: what is the attack pattern of a monk6/druid14 in wild shape. To be more specific let's say a dire ape is the wild shape which has two claws and a bite attack. Would it be just bab followed by natural weapon, flurry of blows followed by bab followed by natural weapons, ot is there a way to squeeze in twf to make flurry of blows, bab, twf, and then natural weapons. Assuming there is indeed a weapon that can be used in either flurry of blows and/or two weapon fighting without interfering with natural weapons, which I have a sneaking suspition shurikens could be the answer to. Being that shurikens are treated as ammo when drawn so as long as natural weapons come last the shurikens will not be held when it is the time for the natural attack sequence.

And sorry for all the spelling errors I'm posting from my android which is proving more difficult than I thought, nor does it have any way to inform me when I do spell something wrong

[tyckspoon]

To be more specific let's say a dire ape is the wild shape which has two claws and a bite attack. Would it be just bab followed by natural weapon

This is the only unambiguously legal one; Unarmed Strike for your BAB-based iteratives and then natural weapons as secondaries. Everything else depends on how you interpret a series of really messy and horribly written rules, none of which seem to have been written with any consideration for how they would interact with everything else. You aren't *going* to find a definitive statement on this within the rules; if there was an obvious resolution, we wouldn't still be arguing about it. I am of the opinion that you can can combine everything, if you are willing to take all the relevant penalties, but I do not pretend to claim that this position is the only one that satisfies all the rules.

[Urpriest]

@kitcik I'm do not know who is correct or incorrect. That is the problem, between my own research and the research of others I cannot find something difinative. And my only problem with the link you posted (which I completly understand is written by the rule makers) is that 1 its still so murky in terms of what it defines that there are too many interpretations and 2 it doesn't address the specifics of my question which is: what is the attack pattern of a monk6/druid14 in wild shape. To be more specific let's say a dire ape is the wild shape which has two claws and a bite attack. Would it be just bab followed by natural weapon, flurry of blows followed by bab followed by natural weapons, ot is there a way to squeeze in twf to make flurry of blows, bab, twf, and then natural weapons. Assuming there is indeed a weapon that can be used in either flurry of blows and/or two weapon fighting without interfering with natural weapons

Let's go for an uncontroversial example: suppose you aren't using flurry. Suppose further that your Dire Ape has armor spikes. You have BAB +14. Neglecting anything but BAB and TWF and secondary attack penalties, and assuming you use the armor spikes as your main-hand weapon and unarmed strike as your off-hand, you have the following attack routine:

Armor spikes +12/+7/+2, Unarmed Strike +12, Bite +7, Claws +7/+7

ITWF and GTWF would give you more Unarmed Strike attacks at progressively lower bonuses, while Multiattack would lower the penalty on your natural attacks.

Flurry makes things complicated because of the wording, which requires a ruling from your DM (though make sure it's a ruling backed up by actual reasoning!). So would trying to use Unarmed Strike for both main and off hand.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's a page and a half in Dragon 320 (p108-109) about Flurry of Blows, Monk weapons, and TWF. That's from June 2004, it was the first place my group ever found it clearly spelled out, and it's what we've been going by ever since. We tend to take a liberal interpretation of the rules, so if something could be allowed, then it usually is.

When making a flurry of blows, you cannot make any attacks that aren't with an unarmed strike or special monk weapon during that round. Natural weapons are still part of your body, so you can make an unarmed strike with one if you want, but it will deal unarmed strike damage and be no different from an unarmed strike delivered by any other part of your body.

Directly from the article:
The rules don't come right out and say that a monk can't use an unarmed strike for an off-hand attack (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists. When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting and the monk adds only half his Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed strike hits.
To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack whatever two-weapon fighting penalty the monk has with the penalty (if any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk's full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains only half the Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a weapon, that weapon isn't available for use in the flurry.

As long as you take all the proper penalties, you can combine multiple extra-attack abilities. You could be throwing Shuriken with Flurry of Blows, TWF, and Rapid Shot for a -6 to hit with every attack if you really wanted to. You could take Double Steel Strike (ECS) and use a Two-Bladed Sword with Flurry of Blows, TWF, Slashing Flurry (PH2), and Flurry of Strikes (EWM in CW) and take a -8 penalty to get four extra attacks. But if you're using Flurry of Blows, then every attack you make that round has to be with an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon.

[DraxDauragon]

For those that are still interested the following is the message i sent to my dm prior to starting this thread. My dm is very open minded to things as long as there are rules backing up everything. So even though he has ruled against this if there is a definitive way to get Flurry of blows, bab, twf and rapid shot with shurikens while human, then once in wild shape to use flurry of blows, bab, twf, rapid shot with shurikens, followed by natural weapons. And even so Flurry of blows seems very vague and i personally don't think it can be followed by bab, but bab is included inside the flurry of blows but once again i'm not sure about this...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131169

The general consensus is that you can use flurry of blows and then use natural weapons as secondaries. "You do not get iteratives with natural weapons, and natural weapons are not Special Monk Weapons, so you cannot Flurry with them anyway. However, you can still use and Flurry with your Unarmed Strike, and use your Natural Weapons as secondary attacks (it gets weird and mostly ineffective to try using the natural weapons as primary- you have to Dual Wield the unarmed attack- so nobody sane does that.)

For monk 5/druid 5, your base attack would be +6/+1. Flurrying it would be +5/+5/+0- one extra Flurry attack, -1 penalty. Natural weapons used as secondary attacks take a flat -5 from full BAB, plus the Flurry penalty (applies to 'each other attack made this round.) So they hit at the same value as your second iterative. The attack routine would be +5 unarmed/ +5 unarmed/ +0 unarmed/ +0 claw/ +0 claw/ +0 bite. Unarmed strikes would do damage with full Strength bonus, as per the rule for Flurried attacks, and the natural weapons would do damage at 1/2 Strength bonus, as per the rules for secondary natural weapons."

But as I kept looking I came across this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a

The two quotes from here that caught my attention is: Under monks and natural weapons: "The example monk cannot use a flurry of blows because a flurry doesn't work with natural weaponry."
I don't know if it means natural weapons CANNOT be used in flurry of blows or if natural weapons cannot be a follow up to flurry of blows

The other is in reference to off hand attacks for the monk, Under monks and manufactured weapons: "A monk using one or two special monk weapons simply substitutes one attack from each weapon (or from one or both ends of a quarterstaff) as part of a full attack (including a flurry of blows). The monk need not take any penalties for off-hand or two-weapon attacks. The monk, however, does not get an extra attack from a second weapon. If the monk is using a flurry of blows, she adds her full Strength bonus to damage from any successful attack, even if she uses what normally would be her off hand, or uses one end of a quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon.

If a monk is not using her flurry of blows ability, she can claim an extra attack from a second weapon. If she does, she takes all the penalties for attacking with two weapons and for attacking with off-hand weapons. A monk using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack does not suffer any off-hand penalties; however, under the regular rules for two-weapon fighting you get only one extra attack for an off-hand weapon."

These paragraphs seem counter intuitive at first glance; " The monk need not take any penalties for off-hand or two-weapon attacks" I would assume it means during flurry of blows only and as we have previously discussed a monk cannot make any second attack outside of flurry of blows because the monk's body is considered an individual weapon not 10 (for the sake of argument). Then in the next paragraph i read: "If a monk is not using her flurry of blows ability, she can claim an extra attack from a second weapon. If she does, she takes all the penalties for attacking with two weapons and for attacking with off-hand weapons. A monk using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack does not suffer any off-hand penalties;" My only assumption for this is if I were wielding a kama in my main hand and using my fist as my off-hand attack, but the text seems very vague.

http://www.infiniti2000.com/d20/natwpn.html One more for good measure. The final link is in argument against flurry of blows followed by natural attacks.

[Urpriest]

When the rules say that a Monk takes no penalties for off-hand or two-weapon attacks during a flurry, all they mean is that you don't have to combine flurry with TWF, you can instead simply make off-hand attacks or two-weapon attacks by alternating weapons within a flurry, much like you can do during a normal full attack. It's clarifying that TWF and flurry are different things.

[Darrin]

The two quotes from here that caught my attention is: Under monks and natural weapons: "The example monk cannot use a flurry of blows because a flurry doesn't work with natural weaponry."
I don't know if it means natural weapons CANNOT be used in flurry of blows or if natural weapons cannot be a follow up to flurry of blows


The rules are ambiguous. You can't use natural weapons for a flurry, but the rules don't say anything about attacks that happen outside of a flurry. It's not clear if the restriction on flurry applies only to the flurry attacks, or to all attacks you make that round. If your DM rules that secondary attacks are *not* part of the flurry, then yes, you could flurry your unarmed strikes, and then add all your natural weapons after that as secondary attacks.

[Gigas Breaker]

On whether or not you can use an unarmed strike for mainhand AND offhand I have this non RAW analogy. If you can twf with the two ends of a quarterstaff or double bladed weapons, then you should be able to twf with multiple parts of your body.

[Urpriest]

On whether or not you can use an unarmed strike for mainhand AND offhand I have this non RAW analogy. If you can twf with the two ends of a quarterstaff or double bladed weapons, then you should be able to twf with multiple parts of your body.

Then do you need to enhance them separately, like with a quarterstaff? This is basically Curmudgeon's argument.

[Keld Denar]

Looks like Darrin and UrPriest have it pretty well handled. I concur with their opinions, and trust me, we have debated this EXTENSIVELY on these boards over the last few years.

EDIT: I'm of the opinion that if you want to use UASs for TWFing, you SHOULD pay the markup for TWFing. You should have to enhance your "mainhand" UAS and your "offhand" UAS separately, or just pay for an Amulet of Mighty Blows that covers ALL natural weapons. This brings it into line with everything else concerning TWFing, and I'm a proponent of any interpretation that is consistent. Again, you aren't enhancing your right fist, your left thumb, or your forehead, but rather the abstract concept of UAS A and UAS B. What part of your body you actually attack with is irrelevant. The only thing that the rules care about are attack bonuses and how much Str to damage you get.

[DraxDauragon]

Something else to add fuel to the fire
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Magic_Weapon


Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. (An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon’s +1 bonus on attack rolls.)

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.

[Keld Denar]

Could grammatically be a collective noun. A noun that represents a group of individuals. There isn't just one UAS any more than there is one melee weapon in the world. It is referring to a singular member of a group.

[herrhauptmann]

Multiple attacks can only be used during a full-round attack. Also, AoOs must be melee attacks, not ranged attacks.

There's improved and greater combat reflexes. (dragon mag 340)
When someone provokes an AOO, it lets you take a second attack at a -5, and then a third attack at another -5 (total -10).
Mind you, doing that eats up extra AOO attempts for the round.

Not sure how it would stack with double-hit.


And Dragon 350 has ranged threat. Lets you make ranged AOOs on people within 15 feet.
Requires Bab6, Point Blank shot, combat reflexes, and precise shot. Also eats ALL of your AOOs for the turn. Might be worth it for an arcane archer shooting out AMF arrows, but I doubt it's worth the investment for your monk/druid.

[kitcik]

He's a monk. Let him make as many flurry / TWF / natural attacks as he wants. Then have a sparrow fly over him and drop acorns on him til he dies.

[ericgrau]

Short version:
Flurry must be with only unarmed strikes or monk weapons.
TWF adds an off-hand weapon attack.
Natural weapons are not monk weapons.

You may TWF flurry as long as your extra TWF attack(s) is/are with an off hand monk weapon. You may not include natural attacks in a flurry.

Off topic flight rarely does much unless you can get it for the whole party and every important non-PC ally or plot object. Otherwise it's a partial defense you use to shore up your weak spot but that's it. It's pretty amusing how popular it is in video games, especially in response to major ground forces, and how many people go way overboard to get just a little bit. Then you walk right past it to an important target, take out the target and if you haven't already won you use your vastly superior position to then respond to the flier and swat him easily.

[kitcik]

Short version:
Flurry must be with only unarmed strikes or monk weapons.
TWF adds an off-hand weapon attack.
Natural weapons are not monk weapons.

You may TWF flurry as long as your extra TWF attack(s) is/are with an off hand monk weapon. You may not include natural attacks in a flurry.

Off topic flight rarely does much unless you can get it for the whole party and every important non-PC ally or plot object. Otherwise it's a partial defense you use to shore up your weak spot but that's it. It's pretty amusing how popular it is in video games, especially in response to major ground forces, and how many people go way overboard to get just a little bit. Then you walk right past it to an important target, take out the target and if you haven't already won you use your vastly superior position to then respond to the flier and swat him easily.

1) You are specifically allowed to use your full array of natural attacks as secondary attacks.
2) Flight is critical in D&D. I have no idea what video games you are speaking of, but in D&D you don't walk right past the flying dragon, take out its hoard, then swat the dragon easily. In D&D, if you can't fly. the dragon TPK's you.

[ericgrau]

You may use natural weapons as secondary attacks, you just can't flurry with them any more than you could flurry with a longsword.

A lone dragon would be an example of getting your whole team to fly... or it would be if their maneuverability and limited strength of ranged attacks wasn't so bad. Most dragons need to enter melee or the party's range will pick them off with or without help from the party melee. For that matter not making it so binary but considering the implications of partial party effects was my entire point. Ignoring that might as well be addressing your point towards nobody or towards an entirely imagined counterpoint. Which is easy to beat but meaningless.

[DraxDauragon]

The question isn't can you flurry with natural weapons, the question is. Can you flurry with unarmed strikes, followed by off hand attacks of unarmed strikes granted by twf, followed by natural attacks.

The other Question is can you flurry with Shurikens, followed by off hand attacks with shurikens using twf, followed by another shuriken granted by rapid shot, and then finish with natural attacks (assume the shape is of an ape/dire ape/ or another tool using animal form)

To both these questions all the cumulative penalties apply of course.

[ericgrau]

All attacks made as part of a flurry full attack must be with unarmed strikes or monk weapons, so that's why natural weapons don't work regardless of their place in the full attack. Flurry doesn't only limit the type of weapon on the monk's extra attack, but all his attacks. I can understand a little bit of ambiguity but this is also how the FAQ rules it even when you add on new attacks in addition to your normal ones. It gives a specific example with flurry + TWF ruling that the off-hand weapon making the bonus TWF attack must be a monk weapon.

Yes you can TWF + flurry with shurikens and even simultaneously rapid shot. Besides being true by literal RAW (which isn't always RAI, I know) the FAQ gives this as a specific example.

[Urpriest]

All attacks made as part of a flurry full attack must be with unarmed strikes or monk weapons, so that's why natural weapons don't work regardless of their place in the full attack. Flurry doesn't only limit the type of weapon on the monk's extra attack, but all his attacks.

You have added some words here. Care to justify them?

[ericgrau]

This, which I assumed was common knowledge:


A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

[kitcik]

All attacks made as part of a flurry full attack must be with unarmed strikes or monk weapons, so that's why natural weapons don't work regardless of their place in the full attack. Flurry doesn't only limit the type of weapon on the monk's extra attack, but all his attacks. I can understand a little bit of ambiguity but this is also how the FAQ rules it even when you add on new attacks in addition to your normal ones.

Not according to the FAQ. Try to read the whole thread. The FAQ specifically says you can flurry, then use your natural attacks as secondaries. Whether the FAQ is correct is a different story, but you have offered no evidence one way or the other.

Oh, and all a dragon has to do if you can't fly, is fly above your max range and drop things on you. Sure, maybe the rest of the party can take out the dragon, but sitting on the ground watching isn't much fun - my earlier point being, the monk sucks let him flurry/TWF/secondary. I don't think I'd let Rapid Shot in though.

[DraxDauragon]

Posted by Darrin: The rules are ambiguous. You can't use natural weapons for a flurry, but the rules don't say anything about attacks that happen outside of a flurry. It's not clear if the restriction on flurry applies only to the flurry attacks, or to all attacks you make that round. If your DM rules that secondary attacks are *not* part of the flurry, then yes, you could flurry your unarmed strikes, and then add all your natural weapons after that as secondary attacks.

Within this thread there are plenty of people saying things against what you just said ericgrau. The question is who is indeed correct with the murky text.

Darrin, Urpiest, and Keld Denar. Seem to lean in favor of the full chain of attacks, and from the sounds of it Darrin and urpiest seem to have been fighting for this for some time.

Gigas Breaker defends the ideal that you can use twf with unarmed strikes

kitcik seemed to be against but then in the middle of one of his posts he flopped at some point when he decided sparrows and acorns were a more important topic...

[ericgrau]

Here's the FAQ entry regarding natural attacks. There is a different one related to TWF. Note P1 fourth sentance and all of P3.


Exactly how often can a monk attack with a single
manufactured weapon when using the flurry of blows
ability? For example, if I have a +1 alchemical silver dagger,
and I’m allowed three attacks in a flurry, how many of
those attacks can be dagger attacks? What if I have two
daggers? How about with natural weaponry, such as a claw
or bite? For example, if I have a vampire monk, can I
flurry with a slam attack and drain energy multiple times
from one living foe? If natural weaponry doesn’t work with
a flurry, why not?

You can’t use a dagger with a flurry of blows at all. When
you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed
strikes or with special monk weapons. Only six of the latter are
included in the Player’s Handbook (kama, nunchaku,
quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). A natural weapon
(any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special
monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.
If you have one (or two) special monk weapons, you can
freely substitute attacks with those weapons with unarmed
attacks in the flurry (see the flurry of blows description on page
46 of the Player’s Handbook). If you’re allowed three attacks
in a flurry, and you have a +1 alchemical silver sai (or other
special monk weapon), you could use the sai up to three times
in the flurry. The examples given in the flurry of blows entry
don’t make that completely clear because they don’t cover all
the combinations of weapon attacks and unarmed strikes that
are possible.

If you have two special monk weapons to use, you can use
either or both of them in the flurry. For example, if you’re
entitled to three attacks using flurry of blows, and you’re armed
with a +1 alchemical silver sai and a cold iron sai, you can
make three attacks with one sai and no attacks with the other,
two attacks with one sai and one attack with the other, one
attack with each sai and one unarmed attack, or any other
combination of three attacks. Note that having a sai in each
hand won’t prevent a monk from making unarmed attacks. A
monk with her hands full can still make her full complement of
unarmed strikes (see the unarmed strike entry on page 41 of the
Player’s Handbook).

It might seem a tad strange that you cannot use a natural
weapon, such as a slam or a claw when you can use a monk
weapon such as a sai or a kama. However, natural weaponry
isn’t as handy as manufactured weaponry. You never get extra
attacks from a high base attack bonus with natural weaponry,
and the monk’s flurry ability is another way to get extra attacks
from your base attack bonus. Please note that a vampire monk
using its unarmed strike ability is not using its slam attack and
cannot drain energy

[DraxDauragon]

@ericgrau your recent post doesn't have any information to possible attacks after the flurry of blows. the question isn't can i use all natural attacks within flurry of blows.

The question is can you flurry with shurikens, followed by off hands with shurikens using GTWF, followed by another throw using rapid shot, followed by two claw attacks and a bite of natural weapons.

the level is monk6/druid14 Meaning the flurry would only provide one extra attack to a normal bab.

[ericgrau]

3rd paragraph covers that.

This may also be handy: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=3.5+FAQ+site:www.wizards.com&oq=3.5+FAQ+site:www.wizards.com&gs_l=hp.3...1565.9262.0.9442.36.32.3.0.0.0.134.230 1.29j3.32.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.nuPjVWuAwCY&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=8235ac65df7283a3&bpcl=38093640&biw=1440&bih=712

[DraxDauragon]

Not sure which paragraph you were referencing as third so brought the last two.

If you have two special monk weapons to use, you can use
either or both of them in the flurry. For example, if you’re
entitled to three attacks using flurry of blows, and you’re armed
with a +1 alchemical silver sai and a cold iron sai, you can
make three attacks with one sai and no attacks with the other,
two attacks with one sai and one attack with the other, one
attack with each sai and one unarmed attack, or any other
combination of three attacks. Note that having a sai in each
hand won’t prevent a monk from making unarmed attacks. A
monk with her hands full can still make her full complement of
unarmed strikes (see the unarmed strike entry on page 41 of the
Player’s Handbook).

This paragraph states that you can use any combination of weapons in a flurry as long as they are either unarmed or special monk weapons. It also states that even if you do not have monk weapons in hand you can use other parts of your body within the flurry as unarmed strikes. It doesn't state any information about attacks outside the flurry of blows.

It might seem a tad strange that you cannot use a natural
weapon, such as a slam or a claw when you can use a monk
weapon such as a sai or a kama. However, natural weaponry
isn’t as handy as manufactured weaponry. You never get extra
attacks from a high base attack bonus with natural weaponry,
and the monk’s flurry ability is another way to get extra attacks
from your base attack bonus. Please note that a vampire monk
using its unarmed strike ability is not using its slam attack and
cannot drain energy

Natural weapons never gain any bonus from bab, this we knew a full natural attack for an ape would be left claw, right claw, teeth; they do not gain extra claw or bite attacks from a bab bonus. It also states you cannot use natural weapons within flurry of blows. All of which is previously agreed upon by many posters in this thread. It states that flurry of blows ads to your bab, so if your bab i only 1 you get another attack with flurry at a -1 to accuracy (for arguments sake) If you had a bab of +6, -1 you would gain another attack from flurry of blows (assuming the monk level is still 6) for a total of 3 hits (two from bab and 1 extra from flurry of blows).
NEITHER of these paragraphs have any information in regards to attacks outside of flurry of blows.

We previously went over that twf can be followed by Natural weapon combo.

So once again,the question is can you do all the attacks in the following attack string in one turn: with bab, +1 hit from flurry, another hit from rapid shot, 3 extra attacks from GTWF, and then use left claw, right claw, bite. Assuming the wild shape can use tools effectively (such as an ape or dire ape) and all attacks in the string of moves prior to the natural weapons are shurikens?

[DraxDauragon]

Used http://www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm with grossly generous ability scores.

Str 18 (+4)
Dex 19 (+4)
Con 16 (+3)
Int 11 (+0)
Wis 18 (+4)
Cha 10 (+0)

With these ability scores (assumed level 20) gives these stats:
Attack (handheld): + 18/ + 13/ + 8 = 14 [base] + 4 [strength]
Weapon Finesse: + 18/ + 13/ + 8 = 14 [base] + 4 [dexterity]
Flurry of Blows: + 17/ + 17 [includes strength modifier]
Attack (missile): + 18/ + 13/ + 8 = 14 [base] + 4 [dexterity]
Grapple check: + 18/ + 13/ + 8 = 14 [base] + 4 [strength]

The following is the druid handbook to make suggestions for wild shapes: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.msg35417#msg35417

Link to dire ape stats http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dire_Ape
Link to dire bear stats http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dire_Bear

And the definition of rapid shot:
You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

TWF: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.

Normal- If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

ITWF: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty.

GTWF: You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a –10 penalty.

So what would an attack string look like?

[ericgrau]

Short version of FAQ: iteratives and extra natural attacks don't mix. TWF and flurry both require iteratives.

For the first half of that you may find the no mixing iterative & natural attacks rule here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons

Based on that alone (assuming there isn't another rule somewhere) you might be able to use natural weapons in combination with TWF but not ITWF or GTWF. Natural weapons still aren't monk weapons, in spite of their seeming similarity to punches.

[Keld Denar]

Eric, that makes no sense. How would using a pair of daggers keep a lizardman from biting fools with his mouth? If he had both hands on a halberd, how would that be different?

The only time TWFing interacts with the ability to use natural weapons is when those natural weapons are being used to wield the weapons you are TWFing with. If you hold a dagger in your clawed hand, you can't claw with that claw.

The rules for natural weapons simply state that if you make a full attack, manufactured weapons (and UASs) are always primary, and any natural weapons are secondary, even if they were normally primary before. There are no rules in that part of the book that prohibit the use of natural weapons in conjunction with TWFing, unlike in Flurry of Blows, which includes a clause that states that ONLY certain weapons are allowed to be used with a flurry.

And that doesn't even address the side case of the flurry and the natural attacks being two separate entities. Inside of the Flurry (iteratives + flurry attacks), all weapons must be monk weapons. This is fine, since natural weapons can't be used to make iterative attacks ANYWAY. Outside of the Flurry, one could argue that the restriction doesn't exist and secondary natural attacks could made with no restriction. It all depends on where you put the parenthesis on the attack routine, essentially. Disagrees with the FAQ, but could still be considered a valid interpretation of the rules as written in the manufactured and natural weapons sections in the various rule books.

[DraxDauragon]

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack

After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out. If you’ve already taken a 5-foot step, you can’t use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.
Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action

You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full attack action. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.
Cleave

The extra attack granted by the Cleave feat or Great Cleave feat can be taken whenever they apply. This is an exception to the normal limit to the number of attacks you can take when not using a full attack action.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack

Both Natural attacks and flurry of blows are full attack actions, if i am correct. It doesn't state anything about not allowing you to follow through with all available attacks, as long as you use a full round action and take the proper penalties on subsequent attacks.

A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows. - http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Monk#Flurry_of_Blows

Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm).

This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity. - http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Natural_Weapons

And actually no were are on the natural weapons page does it mention full action attack... I'm just assuming in order to use all of them it would need a full attack action although it does state you can use all the natural weapons as a part of an AoO if i interpreted it correctly.

[Keld Denar]

Quick request...when you quote something, could you wrap it in [quote] tags? Makes it easier to tell what is your argument and what is copy/pasta. Thank you.

Natural weapons follow the normal rules for full attacks. You can attack with one natural weapon (usually your primary) as a standard action. This is regardless if the fact that you may have 1 bite or 300 tentacles. One attack as a standard action, just the same as a guy with a sword. Same with AoOs. One AoO, one natural weapon attack, again, generally the creature's primary.

If you take a full attack, you get to attack with all of your natural weapons, whether you have 1 bite or 300 tentacles. Your primary natural weapon(s) are at full BAB, while all secondaries are at -5 (-2 with Multiattack).

If you combine natural and manufactured weapons, whatever your primary natural attack(s) are, they become secondary, and all secondary natural attacks can be made in a full attack, just the same as if you didn't use a manufactured weapon, assuming that the part of the body that makes that attack isn't occupied by holding the weapon.

Those are the rules for natural attacks.

[DraxDauragon]

Quick request...when you quote something, could you wrap it in quote tags? Makes it easier to tell what is your argument and what is copy/pasta. Thank you.

Natural weapons follow the normal rules for full attacks. You can attack with one natural weapon (usually your primary) as a standard action. This is regardless if the fact that you may have 1 bite or 300 tentacles. One attack as a standard action, just the same as a guy with a sword. Same with AoOs. One AoO, one natural weapon attack, again, generally the creature's primary.

If you take a full attack, you get to attack with all of your natural weapons, whether you have 1 bite or 300 tentacles. Your primary natural weapon(s) are at full BAB, while all secondaries are at -5 (-2 with Multiattack).

If you combine natural and manufactured weapons, whatever your primary natural attack(s) are, they become secondary, and all secondary natural attacks can be made in a full attack, just the same as if you didn't use a manufactured weapon, assuming that the part of the body that makes that attack isn't occupied by holding the weapon.

Those are the rules for natural attacks.

Sorry about the tags, long time lurker, new to posting.

So IYO, given the previous stats, inside the spoiler; Str 18 (+4)
Dex 19 (+4)
Con 16 (+3)
Int 11 (+0)
Wis 18 (+4)
Cha 10 (+0)

With these ability scores (assumed level 20) gives these stats:
Attack (handheld): + 18/ + 13/ + 8 = 14 [base] + 4 [strength]
Weapon Finesse: + 18/ + 13/ + 8 = 14 [base] + 4 [dexterity]
Flurry of Blows: + 17/ + 17 [includes strength modifier]
Attack (missile): + 18/ + 13/ + 8 = 14 [base] + 4 [dexterity]
Grapple check: + 18/ + 13/ + 8 = 14 [base] + 4 [strength]

The following is the druid handbook to make suggestions for wild shapes: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...35417#msg35417

Link to dire ape stats http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dire_Ape
Link to dire bear stats http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dire_Bear

And the definition of rapid shot:
You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

TWF: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.

Normal- If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

ITWF: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty.

GTWF: You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a –10 penalty.
What would the attack string look like attempting to get the most amount of hits in either using the Shurikens or Unarmed strikes while in Wild shape? If you would be so kind and generous. :smallbiggrin: If using shurikens i would think the string to be: Main hand 3 hits, off hand 3 hits, one hit from flurry, one hit from rapid shot, and then the bite and two claws?

[Keld Denar]

That depends on your interpretation of whether or not you believe that a flurry is defines as all attacks in a round, or just all the iteratives. The FAQ says that it is all attacks, but I think either is a valid interpretation. If you believe the FAQ, then you need to drop either the Flurry our the claw/claw/bite. Otherwise, you are fine. Keep in mind that TWF penalties only apply to attacks made with either weapon, while Rapid Shot and Flurry of Blows apply their penalties to all attacks in the round (including the natural ones).

I think you can do the math from there.

[DraxDauragon]

Thank you Keld Denar. I think between your statements and the testimonials of Urpriest, Darrin, and others; I should have a solid presentation to my DM.

Thanks to everyone for all your efforts in making the rules clearer. Unless there is anything else that needs to be touched on...

[DraxDauragon]

Hey I know this thread was dead and buried... but i just stumbled upon something.


That depends on your interpretation of whether or not you believe that a flurry is defines as all attacks in a round, or just all the iteratives. The FAQ says that it is all attacks, but I think either is a valid interpretation. If you believe the FAQ, then you need to drop either the Flurry our the claw/claw/bite. Otherwise, you are fine. Keep in mind that TWF penalties only apply to attacks made with either weapon, while Rapid Shot and Flurry of Blows apply their penalties to all attacks in the round (including the natural ones).

So Keld says that its open to interpretation... Well while looking up the soulknife class.

Bladewind: As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, a soulknife can give up his regular attacks and instead fragment his mind blade to make one melee attack at his full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to the soulknife’s regular mind blade.

When using bladewind, a soulknife forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell).

This is a full attack action that forfeits any other attacks by any other means. But Flurry of blows does not state anything like that. (see spoiler for Flurry of blows definition)
Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1-1/2 or ×1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.
So would this further cement the idea that flurry of blows could be used in conjunction of other attacks in the same turn?

[Keld Denar]

That has nearly identical wording to Whirlwind Attack. Interesting.

And you aren't giving up all other attacks. Flurry simply states that you can't use non-monk weapons. Natural weapons aren't monk weapons. Period. Now, whether that means that you can't use the natural weapon as one of your flurry attacks, out you can't use them atty all in the same round as a flurry is where the debate is, IMO.

It doesn't need a blanket clause like that, it just eliminates non-monk weapons and is done.

[DraxDauragon]

We ended up starting an new campaign and i got stuck with a druid class so seeing as this would be a possible option for me to play I tried looking into it again. So I finally found the faq, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a, and looked up the monk.
To make things short, Yes. A monk can do flurry, then two weapon fighting (even with his fists), and if he is a manimal then natural attacks. Weapons that are not monk weps cannot be used in flurry but all other attacks after that is open season.

The following are exerts from the faq:
The description of the flurry of blows ability says
there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand
weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean,
exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to
flurry attacks?
Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry
for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike
ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack,
even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees
and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra
attacks, or both.
The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t
use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact
wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and
no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists.
When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk
suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting
(see Table 8–10 in the PH) and the monk adds only half her
Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed
strike hits.
To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack
whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if
any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s
full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains
only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a
weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it
can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For
example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat
and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and
decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a
base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry,
the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, –2
flurry, +2 Strength). An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so
the monk suffers an additional –2 penalty for both the flurry
and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks,
each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry
are primary attacks and add the monk’s full Strength bonus to
damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monk’s
Strength bonus to damage (+1).
If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the
flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry
(in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an
unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with
the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available
for the flurry and vice versa.

Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine
a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her
penalties on attack rolls?
A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other
character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand
weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with
a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but
remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special
monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for twoweapon
fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.
For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally
make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of
blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any
special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she
wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to
accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8
penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light
weapon in her off hand).
If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only
a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off
hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand
during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks,
each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to
be with her off-hand weapon.
A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can
make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows.
Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three
off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five
attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any
weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also
has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her
flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged
attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her
primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer
a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this:
+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with
shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.

Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a
centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural
weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can
he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed
(plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?
If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make
two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur
monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed
strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).
The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5
penalty for secondary natural attacks.
An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7
(+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his
8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof
attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the
flurry)

If a creature with multiple natural attacks (such as the
standard two claws and a bite array) takes levels of monk,
how do flurry of blows and its natural attack progression
interact?
You can’t use a natural weapon (claw, bite, or whatever) as
part of a flurry of blows—only unarmed strikes and special
monk weapons can be used in a flurry of blows.
If a creature can use one of its natural weapons as a
secondary attack in conjunction with manufactured weapon
attacks, it can do the same with that natural weapon in
conjunction with a flurry of blows. Any penalty assessed on
attacks by the flurry of blows would also apply to the natural
weapon attack.
For example, a typical lizardfolk can attack with a club and
its bite as part of a full attack. Normally, a creature would take
a –5 penalty on an attack roll made with a secondary weapon,
but since the lizardfolk has Multiattack, the penalty on the
attack roll is reduced to –2 and adds only half the lizardfolk’s
Strength bonus on the damage roll.
If it were a 1st-level monk, it could make a flurry of blows
(using unarmed strikes, not claw attacks), then add a bite attack
as a secondary attack. Each unarmed strike would have a –2
penalty (from flurry of blows), and the bite attack would have a
–4 penalty (–2 from flurry of blows and –2 from being a
secondary weapon, reduced from –5 by Multiattack).

Do wearing bracers of armor prevent a monk from using
her AC bonus class feature?
No. Bracers of armor grant an armor bonus to AC, but they
don’t count as armor worn and thus don’t interfere with a
monk’s special abilities. The phrase you cite simply explains
what an armor bonus is, pointing out that you don’t get the AC
bonus from the bracers and also from armor you wear.
Does a monk with a monk’s belt and the Superior Unarmed
Strike feat benefit from both, or does just the highest benefit
apply?
In this case, the better benefit will prevail. These effects
technically do not have a bonus, so they would not use the
stacking rules. One effect will end up overshadowing the other.

Can a monk take Improved Natural Attack (MM 304)
to improve his unarmed strike?
Yes. As stated on page 41 of the PH, a monk’s unarmed
strike “is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural
weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or
improve either” which includes feats such as Improved Natural
Attack.
Barring multiclassing, the earliest a monk could take this
feat would be at 6th level (due to the base attack bonus
prerequisite), at which point her unarmed strike damage would
improve from 1d8 to 2d6 (which represents an average increase
of +2.5 points of damage). The same monk at 20th level would
deal 4d8 points of damage with her unarmed strike.