PDA

View Full Version : Hidding Character Sheets



Fire Lord Pi
2012-11-07, 04:31 PM
One of my players once brought up the idea in the title. Hidding character sheets. Has anyone ever played in a game where the DM did not show the PC's their stats?

I thought this would be an interesting idea, considering the suspense it would bring concerning HPs and other factors. Instead of a player crunching numbers during a dramatic moment in a fight, this would force a person to act as they will and find out what they are capable of. However, I wondered if anyone had any ideas as to how one would handle player made decisions such as leveling up.

Another interesting is Alignment. I very much liked the idea that a player would no longer be straight-jacketted by his Alignment. The player could simply role-play his character concept and the DM could assign an Alignment for the purposes of spell affects.

Overall, what does the playground think about this and does anyone have any expierience with this system?

PaperMustache
2012-11-07, 04:38 PM
Sounds interesting, but a lot of work for the GM.

shadow_archmagi
2012-11-07, 04:40 PM
The difficulty is that there's no efficient way to reveal special features to a player. If it were purely a question of numbers, and you could say that someone is "Pretty strong" instead of a 7 STR, that'd be one thing. Trouble is, characters have all kinds of widgets and dongles.

There's various feats and perks (Spells fall into this catagory) where they're distinct options that you'd have to know about to declare you were using.

Then there's all the talents and upgrades that just prevent bad things (IE: Improved Grapple lets you grapple without getting stabbed in retaliation) and so those characters won't realize they're capable of these things because they won't try if they don't have reason to believe they can do it without repercussion.

There's also the difficulty that players lose control over their character- Someone who wanted to play a dashing, elegant swordsmen and realizes their GM pumped STR and took Power Attack is going to be unhappy.

Shpadoinkle
2012-11-07, 04:41 PM
I personally think it's a terrible idea. If it works for you, great, have fun, but I'd never be able to enjoy a game like that myself.

Thing is, if I have no idea what I'm doing, I don't have fun. If I keep trying something and I keep failing, I don't know if it's just because I'm rolling badly or if that particular action is simply ineffective, so I may have just wasted a dozen rounds on something that has zero chance of success. That kind of thing isn't fun for me.

When I pick up a new game, the first thing I do is learn the ins and outs of the mechanics so I know how stuff works. If I keep throwing lightning bolts at the monster and it's not slowing down or showing any signs of damage, I don't know if it's because it's simply immune, or because it keeps making its saving throw for no damage and I'm just having a run of bad luck, or because it actually gets stronger from electricity or what. I would never play in a game like this.

Fire Lord Pi
2012-11-07, 04:53 PM
I imagined this would be played with the PCs making a character (themselves), handing it to the DM and then not seeing it.

As far as I level ups, perhaps the PCs would mention what direction they want their character to head and the DM would build there character to best follow in that direction. Mabye the would just get to have their sheet and do it themselves.

The Players would still control their character concept, but possibly not the exact statistics of it.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2012-11-07, 04:57 PM
I think the DM hiding character sheets from the players is just more work than the pay-off and highly unfair. Now players hiding their character sheets from eachother on the other hand can do wonders where RP is involved.

valadil
2012-11-07, 05:00 PM
I've been curious about this, but afraid of the logistics. It's a lot of work for the GM. As a GM I prefer to avoid overhead.

Anyway, the best I could see this working would be in a rules light game. D&D 3.5 has too many rules, many of which need to be explicitly activated, for this to make sense. A game that was 6 stats and some hitpoints would probably be okay.

I'd probably give the players some clue about their sheets. I might not tell them what their stats were, but they'd know which stat was highest and which was lowest, even if they didn't know the values.

Ravens_cry
2012-11-07, 05:13 PM
The DM already controls the rest of the world, why should he control the one thing I, as a player, generally have control over?
Sounds like too much work for the DM, too much potential for abuse of power, and not fun for any party.
I can see somewhat what your going for, but it may be better to hide just hide the hit point totals instead, or use an alternative health system.

Gamer Girl
2012-11-07, 05:30 PM
I've done this a couple times, but it only really works with normal adult players.

Mostly I just don't tell the players any game information so that there numbers on their sheet don't mean much...

nedz
2012-11-07, 05:41 PM
DM: "You see a goblin coming towards you, he looks aggressive"
Player: "I pick up my weapon, er, what weapon do I have ?"
DM: "Quarter Staff"
Player: "OK, I grip my, ..., Quarter Staff in two hands and charge. Can I Power Attack ?"
DM: "No"
Player: "I roll an 11, do I hit ?"
DM: "No"
... (some rounds pass)
DM: "The goblin hits you one more time and you go down"
Player: "My character isn't very good at fighting is he ? What was I supposed to have done ?"
DM: "Well you could have cast a spell"
Player: "Really !"

Balmas
2012-11-07, 06:00 PM
I've actually heard of a campaign like this being done; basically, the characters all woke up amnesiac, and went through figuring out what they could do.

For even more fun, make them all be epic level characters, running 1st level quests, and then more as they understand what they are.

jindra34
2012-11-07, 06:20 PM
I've actually heard of a campaign like this being done; basically, the characters all woke up amnesiac, and went through figuring out what they could do.

For even more fun, make them all be epic level characters, running 1st level quests, and then more as they understand what they are.

Thats the only time where this could really work. When the entire game is built around that one aspect.

TuggyNE
2012-11-07, 06:28 PM
Thats the only time where this could really work. When the entire game is built around that one aspect.

Yeah, it's a cute gimmick in moderation, but I really don't think I would like it. If you don't trust me to do anything right at all without massively enforced method acting, just tell me so and I'll get out of your hair already.

Hylas
2012-11-07, 07:28 PM
I've actually heard of a campaign like this being done; basically, the characters all woke up amnesiac, and went through figuring out what they could do.

Yep, I had a DM that did this once. It worked for a short one shot campaign.

However, you need to be careful as to what system you use. D&D has a lot of exceptions for rules (AoO if you don't have a feat, can't use a skill untrained, and so on) that it makes a terrible system for this method of story telling. I would recommend a realistic gurps or white wolf game where the players themselves don't have any strange or supernatural powers so they don't have to guess if they have magic or any one of a thousand abilities.

Now, the longest running RPG group I was ever in had the DM do all of the rolls except damage rolls behind the screen. It worked well for role play and made you think about your actions more than the results of the roll. Keep in mind we still had our sheets and would level up our characters as normal.

LibraryOgre
2012-11-08, 11:42 AM
I've played in a few such games.

One was a PBEM Shadowrun game, where my character had amnesia. I woke up in a corporate hospital with no knowledge of who I was, and the rescue team that got me shorly thereafter was killed. I was on my own in Seattle, slowly learning who I was.

It was also our SOP for V&V... you played yourself, but gaining superpowers. The GM created your sheet, and only gave it to you when you learned your powers.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-11-08, 12:04 PM
The difficulty is that there's no efficient way to reveal special features to a player. If it were purely a question of numbers, and you could say that someone is "Pretty strong" instead of a 7 STR, that'd be one thing. Trouble is, characters have all kinds of widgets and dongles.

There's various feats and perks (Spells fall into this catagory) where they're distinct options that you'd have to know about to declare you were using.

Then there's all the talents and upgrades that just prevent bad things (IE: Improved Grapple lets you grapple without getting stabbed in retaliation) and so those characters won't realize they're capable of these things because they won't try if they don't have reason to believe they can do it without repercussion.

There's also the difficulty that players lose control over their character- Someone who wanted to play a dashing, elegant swordsmen and realizes their GM pumped STR and took Power Attack is going to be unhappy.

Yeah, this is why I don't think it would work for most games of D&D. I do, however, think it could work well for other styles of games, like the all-zeroth-level commoner game: No feats, no spells, no items, no nothing. Just your ability scores and your wits.

Sebastrd
2012-11-08, 12:53 PM
I'd be game for something like this. It might take some tweaks to whatever system you use, but I'd make it work. Cool idea.

Mordar
2012-11-08, 01:13 PM
I've done this in D&D and it was a lot of fun...

Worked with the DM to devise the character, so there was no "I want to Power Attack with my Staff but I'm a wizard" kinds of silliness. For example:

I was a farm boy who lived on the frontier with my family. Plowed and harvested, hunted and fished. Strong and hardened by this life, but not terribly social. Worked hard, but didn't like the idea of having to live my life on the farm forever. Had to spend time with the local militia when the orc raiding season came around. Ma and Pa can handle the farm now that the boys are older, so I'm ready to set out and make my own way in the world.

DM can derive much from this, and might ask a few follow up questions to determine specifics...'cause this could be a fighter, a ranger, or any of dozens of other options (particularly depending on system). Once completed, the DM tells a little story that gives the player some insight into capability (because we all have a sense of what we can do, but not perfectly quantified) and away you go. For example:

Your hunting skills were always better than your friends...tracking and stalking deer, and hitting moving rabbits with your sling/bow from over 70' away. You were decent with the spear-work during the orc raids, but the captain soon recognized you were best when able to soften up the blighters from a distance before going hand-to-hand. Your combined experience provided you with the skill to take orcs out of action with minimum effort.

So, you might derive from this that you are a ranger, ranged-attack style, with Favored Enemy orc...or you might be a fighter with weapon focus on the bow and skills that allow some stealth and spot. Either way, fits the idea you put forth and frees you to develop the character and not just the character sheet.

Similarly, had it been a wizardly bent you wanted, the DM story would certainly include information on your teacher and the kinds of spells you have mastered. [Can do this in traditional style and provide the spell list, or allow "unprepared casting" for all spell slingers and limit available spells by schools]

The DM kept the sheets and used spreadsheets/little computer programs to quickly calculate modifiers and such when needed, and took liberty *as the players advocates (see below)* to optimize the actions within the intent provided by the player.

In one campaign, the DM actually made the dice rolls (via computer) to help immersion in the storytelling, but not everyone like that as much (see Hylas' point above).

So, in short, I've loved playing this style, but YMMV.

Some key considerations:


Everyone must be "in" on it - recognize that it isn't a traditional game and be flexible;
It practically HAS TO BE the DM's idea given the extra workload;
The DM must be willing to act as the players' advocates - make the best use of resources/abilities, and be sure they have the understanding to make reasonable decisions;
This isn't a way to strip choice from the players, or divest them of opportunity, but free them to explore the character/world/story outside excessive concerns of system;
Did I mention everyone has to be in favor of this, and willing to play along?


I agree that 3.x and 4 aren't the best D&D versions for this, but they can work...I've done it in AD&D, 3.0 (with slightly more than core...the soft-cover books were included) and RoleMaster.

I further agree that its best done as a trial run with a long one-shot or very short campaign (stealing from the above example, a campaign that might be called "Settling the Issue with the farmland Orc Raiders Once and For All") that might go as many as 4 or 5 levels.

I really enjoyed it...and now I want to get to do it again... :smallamused:

- M

valadil
2012-11-08, 02:24 PM
DM: "You see a goblin coming towards you, he looks aggressive"
Player: "I pick up my weapon, er, what weapon do I have ?"
DM: "Quarter Staff"
Player: "OK, I grip my, ..., Quarter Staff in two hands and charge. Can I Power Attack ?"
DM: "No"
Player: "I roll an 11, do I hit ?"
DM: "No"
... (some rounds pass)
DM: "The goblin hits you one more time and you go down"
Player: "My character isn't very good at fighting is he ? What was I supposed to have done ?"
DM: "Well you could have cast a spell"
Player: "Really !"

Unless you're doing the amnesia game, that's the wrong way to do this sort of thing. Your character still knows what his life experience was. If he went to wizard school and learned fireball, he knows fireball. He just can't quantify it.

But I'll concede that Power Attack doesn't work well with this approach. It really depends on the player being aware of the mechanics. I guess that if they knew they had power attack they could give you a percentage, and the GM would use that much of however many points could be put towards power attack. That seems like it defeats the purpose of this playstyle though.

SowZ
2012-11-08, 02:36 PM
I can see this working in certain games, especially horror or non-heroic games, but not really in D&D all that well.

nedz
2012-11-08, 03:48 PM
Unless you're doing the amnesia game, that's the wrong way to do this sort of thing. Your character still knows what his life experience was. If he went to wizard school and learned fireball, he knows fireball. He just can't quantify it.

But in this case the player will be able to quantify how many levels of Wizard they have. E.g. if they know fireball, but no fourths, then they are probably 5th or 6th level. This means that the fireball will do 5d6 or 6d6 damage.

Kornaki
2012-11-08, 04:23 PM
What if you told them everything except their HP? And to make things more fun, everyone randomly got an extra plus or minus 2hp per level, so you're really not sure what your hit points are like

valadil
2012-11-08, 04:26 PM
But in this case the player will be able to quantify how many levels of Wizard they have. E.g. if they know fireball, but no fourths, then they are probably 5th or 6th level. This means that the fireball will do 5d6 or 6d6 damage.

I'm willing to let them infer that if they're so inclined. I also think this sort of play would be better with players who don't know the system. It's one thing to play in the dark when you don't know what you're doing, but it'll feel more like a handicap if you do know the rules and aren't allowed to use them. For the sake of not frustrating the players too much, I'd reserve this for a system they don't know well.

Jay R
2012-11-08, 04:38 PM
Another interesting is Alignment. I very much liked the idea that a player would no longer be straight-jacketted by his Alignment. The player could simply role-play his character concept and the DM could assign an Alignment for the purposes of spell affects.

Overall, what does the playground think about this and does anyone have any expierience with this system?

The system in Pendragon does this sort of thing. You roll up your virtues and calculate the complementary vices so that they total 20. (For instance, if you Courage is 15, then your Cowardice is 5.) But over time, those numbers change based on what you do. If you stand against overwhelming odds, you get a Courage check. If you run, you get a Cowardice check. Eventually, regardless of where you started, it represents your actual actions.

Delwugor
2012-11-10, 10:28 AM
Tried it once and never again. It was very difficult to connect my character and his actions to what was going on in the game.

navar100
2012-11-10, 11:33 AM
The DM controls the NPCs, campaign plot points, the availability of magic items, the amount of treasure, monsters, political intrigue, the gods, house rules, books sources available, when to play (one player can't make it, game can continue. DM can't make it, no game), and often the location of the game (DM's house, but admittedly not universal).

The PC is the only thing the player gets to control. Take that away from him, the DM should just write the novel in his head already and let the players free to actually play a game.

jindra34
2012-11-10, 12:04 PM
The PC is the only thing the player gets to control. Take that away from him, the DM should just write the novel in his head already and let the players free to actually play a game.

The issue with this statement is that even if you deny access to the full sheet you aren't taking control of the PC away from the player. I'm also going to assume the players agreed to it because in any situation where this is anywhere near reasonable from a story perspective it will be the dominant facet of the campaign. Also you should let them have some control over belongings (you know the stuff they could find by looking through their packs) and appearance. And maybe even future advancement.

SowZ
2012-11-10, 01:41 PM
To the OP, it sounds like what you want is a freeform game, which still can have DMs. I've played them and they can be loads of fun with the right players.

Jay R
2012-11-10, 04:35 PM
The theory is not that the player doesn't know what the PC can do, or what he's good at, but that he doesn't have the exact numbers. "You're the strongest one in the party, sometimes able to bend bars," rather than, "You have Strength = 18 (42%)."

The goal is to be focused on skills and character, rather than percents.

navar100
2012-11-10, 04:49 PM
The theory is not that the player doesn't know what the PC can do, or what he's good at, but that he doesn't have the exact numbers. "You're the strongest one in the party, sometimes able to bend bars," rather than, "You have Strength = 18 (42%)."

The goal is to be focused on skills and character, rather than percents.

In other words, Stormwind Fallacy.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-11-10, 05:14 PM
In other words, Stormwind Fallacy.

Essentially.

The idea of characters not knowing their exact numbers is intriguing, but I think that there are systems that support such much better than D&D does. D&D has always been something of a war game, with a heavy emphasis on the tactical aspect of combat. Numbers and classes are important-- and experienced players will soon be able to figure out their numbers no matter what you do.

Hiding HP might work, though you should be sure to give regular updates on health levels. And Alignment should probably be handled in the manner you suggest regardless of how you play.

But if numbers are such a huge distraction/immersion-breaking factor, it might be better to try a different, more abstract system.

Mordar
2012-11-10, 05:25 PM
The PC is the only thing the player gets to control. Take that away from him, the DM should just write the novel in his head already and let the players free to actually play a game.


In other words, Stormwind Fallacy.

Only if someone suffers from a Munchkin persecution issue...

"I can't determine the mathematical probability of success on this action given the I don't have an objective quantification of the variables involved" /= "I can't control my character".

Stormwind Fallacy does not apply, as the character may very well be optimized, min/maxxed or even Munchkined. Nor does Jay R's comment address the Fallacy directly. He simply indicates that the focus of the game is to get away from a focus on objective values/quantification...not that someone couldn't RP the heck out of Pun Pun.

If creation mechanics are THE favored portion of the game for a person, this might not be the style game for that person. The existence of, and support for, this style doesn't represent an effort to infringe on that person or the traditional style of the game.

- M

Water_Bear
2012-11-10, 06:33 PM
No matter how well optimized the character is, it doesn't matter if their abilities can't be used tactically.

Power Attack has already been brought up, but pretty much any melee build will be rendered near-useless without knowing what their feat selection is. Like, you're on a horse and holding a lance and a bow, do you make a cavalry charge or hit them as a skirmisher? Well, if you're a Paladin with the Charging Smite ACF, Shock Trooper, your horse is also your Special Mount and your Lance is the right kind of magic charging might be a solid plan but using your bow is about as effective as spitting at the enemy. If you're a Swift Hunter who carries a lance as a secondary weapon and uses their Animal Companion horse for extra mobility, then that charge is just going to get you killed and the bow is your only chance of winning.

Add in special combat maneuvers like Tripping and Disarming which are even more feat intensive and circumstantial, class features like Stunning Fist or Rage whose effectiveness depends on your level ability scores and feat selection, and Tome of Battle Manuevers and it shows the true vastness of the penalty this puts on your effectiveness in D&D.

I'll echo what other people have said; in some game systems, especially Aspect/Trait systems or rules-light mundane systems, this kind of thing can work. In most Adventure Games like D&D it is preposterous.

nedz
2012-11-10, 06:58 PM
The theory is not that the player doesn't know what the PC can do, or what he's good at, but that he doesn't have the exact numbers. "You're the strongest one in the party, sometimes able to bend bars," rather than, "You have Strength = 18 (42%)."

The goal is to be focused on skills and character, rather than percents.
In other words, something like Amber Diceless ?

shadow_archmagi
2012-11-10, 08:52 PM
Stormwind Fallacy does not apply


If the argument is "Taking away the numbers will make it easier for my players to roleplay" than one can logically assume that the premise of said argument is "My players are focusing on the numbers instead of roleplay" which does indeed sound a great deal like Stormwind Fallacy.

gomanfox
2012-11-10, 09:47 PM
Thing is, if I have no idea what I'm doing, I don't have fun. If I keep trying something and I keep failing, I don't know if it's just because I'm rolling badly or if that particular action is simply ineffective, so I may have just wasted a dozen rounds on something that has zero chance of success. That kind of thing isn't fun for me.


This would be corrected by the DM being more descriptive than "you succeed/fail." And probably communication between player and DM about what the character is capable of doing, for example, asking "would I be confident enough in my strength to think I could kick down this door?" This would probably only matter in the first session or two, until you as the player get a feeling of the power level of the character, without knowing the exact numbers.

It also shouldn't take you a dozen tries to figure out that a specific action is ineffective. In real life, if you're trying to lift something heavy, you're going to know after one or two attempts if something is too heavy. Plus, unless I'm misunderstanding, the OP is just talking about removing character sheets, not the dice rolling, so you'd still get the "Wow, I rolled a 16 and didn't come close to succeeding? This probably wont work." It just sounds like it would eliminate the "Well I know this sort of task is usually DC 20 and I get a +15 on my check, so I'm almost certain I can do it" and replace it with "Well I've kicked down doors this sturdy before, I bet I could do it again."

Like others have posted though, D&D is probably too complex to do this, especially with feats, and the DM would have to do a LOT of additional explanations to make it fair to the players before they choose their actions. I think it would be fun to play a game like that, if it was done well, I'm just not sure how well it could be done.

valadil
2012-11-10, 10:42 PM
No matter how well optimized the character is, it doesn't matter if their abilities can't be used tactically.


As I said before, unless you're in an amnesia game you know your character's history. IMO, this includes the feats and spells you've learned. You just don't know the numbers behind them.

Water_Bear
2012-11-10, 11:51 PM
As I said before, unless you're in an amnesia game you know your character's history. IMO, this includes the feats and spells you've learned. You just don't know the numbers behind them.

Re-read the example I gave; unless you as a Player already have quite a bit of system knowledge, it would be completely non-intuitive that one common-sense tactic is ideal and another is suicidal without knowing what feats they have. After all, what kind of knight can't fire a bow, or what sort of cavalryman can't even execute a lance charge?

Either the DM has to give you so much information about your abilities that you'd need to write a brand new character sheet to keep it straight, or accept that the PCs will have to stumble through the game in trial-and-error. Some games, ones with simpler or more intuitive mechanics, can support this without much trouble. D&D is at the exact polar opposite end of that spectrum.

TuggyNE
2012-11-11, 01:31 AM
It also shouldn't take you a dozen tries to figure out that a specific action is ineffective. In real life, if you're trying to lift something heavy, you're going to know after one or two attempts if something is too heavy. Plus, unless I'm misunderstanding, the OP is just talking about removing character sheets, not the dice rolling, so you'd still get the "Wow, I rolled a 16 and didn't come close to succeeding? This probably wont work." It just sounds like it would eliminate the "Well I know this sort of task is usually DC 20 and I get a +15 on my check, so I'm almost certain I can do it" and replace it with "Well I've kicked down doors this sturdy before, I bet I could do it again."

I'd like to note something here: having a character with +15 to their check is the simplest way (in D&D) to express the strength of doors you've kicked down before (or, at any rate, the strength of doors you can kick down at this moment). It makes it a lot easier to hang your mental picture of how strong a given character is, because you have a concise and fine-grained scale, rather than having to write a paragraph describing the various factors of the doors that so-and-so has kicked down in their past. At least, that's the case for me.

Specific numbers are good for roleplaying, just like they're good for resumes.

Jay R
2012-11-11, 11:14 AM
The theory is not that the player doesn't know what the PC can do, or what he's good at, but that he doesn't have the exact numbers. "You're the strongest one in the party, sometimes able to bend bars," rather than, "You have Strength = 18 (42%)."

The goal is to be focused on skills and character, rather than percents.
In other words, Stormwind Fallacy.

Not at all. We have not discussed whether the hidden character sheets have been maxed out.

It's an attempt to simulate the actual situation.

I've been using swords for well over 30 years. And I simply don't know what my probability of hitting my opponent with each shot is. I certainly have a pretty good idea - once I've face an opponent for a minute or so, I probably know if I have a better than even chance to hit him. But I can never say, "I will do 1-8 points of damage on 45% of my attacks.

Similarly, I'm pretty good at convincing people I'm right, in good circumstances. But I don't know what my roll is, and I don't know the exact value of a Circumstance bonus of a sympathetic ear and a quiet place to talk.

So a D&D character shouldn't know these either. It's just an attempt to replace "Your skill is 13 with a +4 circumstance bonus, so roll a 9 or higher" with "you think it could go either way."

Ravens_cry
2012-11-11, 11:36 AM
Even in D&D, contested rolls and keeping the AC and DR of villains hidden stops you from instantly knowing the exact probability. Sure, you can work it out in the latter case over time, but even in Real Life™, I presume one can get a feel for the abilities of an opponent after fighting them for a bit.
If one really feels having the numbers on the page take something away, how about a compromise? Make a cut down character sheet that gives a general, non-numerical description of different abilities and items and what they do and general skill level.

navar100
2012-11-11, 11:36 PM
Not at all. We have not discussed whether the hidden character sheets have been maxed out.

It's an attempt to simulate the actual situation.

I've been using swords for well over 30 years. And I simply don't know what my probability of hitting my opponent with each shot is. I certainly have a pretty good idea - once I've face an opponent for a minute or so, I probably know if I have a better than even chance to hit him. But I can never say, "I will do 1-8 points of damage on 45% of my attacks.

Similarly, I'm pretty good at convincing people I'm right, in good circumstances. But I don't know what my roll is, and I don't know the exact value of a Circumstance bonus of a sympathetic ear and a quiet place to talk.

So a D&D character shouldn't know these either. It's just an attempt to replace "Your skill is 13 with a +4 circumstance bonus, so roll a 9 or higher" with "you think it could go either way."

Then play LARP. For me, game mechanics is equally important to the roleplay. I want to know I have +9 to hit.