[3.5/PF] Advice for the party that is ALWAYS suprised

[Twilightwyrm]

So, I've noticed a peculiar trend among the DMs for the campaigns I'm in lately. It seems that, now a days, almost every fight the party engages in is on in which we are either being surprised, or been set up on for an ambush. We do, of course, get our Spot/Listen (/Perception) checks to notice foes, but it seems that though, even when we succeed on the first try, the enemy is either already easily within charging distance, already surrounding us, getting their surprise round anyways, still concealed enough to make their positions/existence ambiguous at best, or some combination of the above.
As I would prefer to adapt to the prevailing circumstances (and because I feel partially responsible), I was wondering what general strategies, abilities, and tactics could be employed to help either negate the advantages of ambush or surprise?
I already have Uncanny Dodge with at least two of my characters, an anomalously high initiative scores in a few others, but all these really do is negate some of the disadvantage. Any help, or discussion on this topic, would be greatly appreciated.

Note: Most campaigns I'm involved in are low to mid level, and we aren't fighting lockdown spellcasters very often, so in other words, rocket tag hasn't started just yet.

[Krazzman]

PF's Diviner Wizard has the ability to always act in the surprise round.
Else be a High Initiative Diviner wizard (in 3.5) and when there is evil: use battlefield control/protectionspells to counter their stuff.

[Twilightwyrm]

Yes, that had occurred to me. The problem is, there are no parties I am in with Diviners being present. The closest things we have are a Necromancer, a Transmuter, and a Shadowcaster, all in difference groups respectively, an none of which are me. Otherwise, believe me, I would be all over that option.

[Andreaz]

Get in the ambushing thing yourselves.

[Wonton]

You could all take the Lookout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lookout-combat-teamwork) feat and then crowd around the guy who has Uncanny Dodge. At least that way everyone everyone gets to act in the surprise round. And you might even get an extra move action out of it.

Funnily enough, our party is having a similar problem with a series of Warforged that seem to have incredible Stealth checks always sneaking up on us (although two members in party having a total of -2 to Perception doesn't help). We're only level 2 so we haven't really figured out a solution yet.

[nedz]

I once played in a campaign like this, the solution was to have someone on point with maxed spot and listen. It didn't always work, but it did help.

Increasing your parties stealth should help, or having the scouts 50' or so ahead.

The problem may be down to your DM(s) either being unimaginative or deciding that you are just too effective. If this is the case then nothing will help with Rule 0 I'm afraid.

[jmelesky]

Suggest that everyone take a level in Sohei Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sohei).

There are initiative-bonus archetypes for several of the base classes in PF. Look around and find one that fits.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3090.0

Look at the builds described there... and use those!

[Hand_of_Vecna]

If you aren't generally being attacked on city streets where you it could be seen as socially unacceptable, you could consider using stealth everywhere you go.

Fly or teleport anywhere that's impractical to approach stealthily.

Turtle up. Spend the first round of every encounter casting obscuring mist or something. Fly straight up. Pull out tower sheilds an walk away. Essentially shift the Paradigm by refusing to engage the ambush. A fair fight or no fight.

[navar100]

If you're always surprised no matter what you do, tell your DM to stop being a jerkdonkey or else he's not DM anymore.

Being a "challenge" is not an excuse.

[Karoht]

I don't recommend an escalating Stealth VS Detection battle with your DM. It tends to go poorly. Being Invisible all day long is not always a good expenditure of resources when the DM can just throw Dispel or Glitterdust traps pretty much everywhere. Try to either increase your capabilities when surprised, or limit the actions of the bad guys in the event of an ambush.

Get wands of Nerveskitter/Anticipate Peril. Very useful.

Use a Mirror to look around corners/under doors whenever possible.

Use Summoned Monsters or even Illusions to scout around when you have reasonable cause to suspect an ambush. The rest of the party should be, where possible, hidden, behind cover, invisible, etc.

Knowledge Tactics or Knowledge Dungeoneering may allow you to look at the layout of an area and think "yeah, this would be the perfect place to ambush us" and inform the party, and then act accordingly.

Ghost Sound or Ventriliquism is great for tricking foes into thinking there is an invisible person in the room. Better to use Ventriliquism and have a caster try to Glitterdust an empty area than to be the target of a Glitterdust yourself.
Speaking of Glitterdust, a Wand of Glitterdust is cheap, and it is excellent for flushing out ambushes. 50 charges in a wand right? When I walk into a room I usually look around for the obvious ambush points. "Where would I hide if I was invisible and about to Fireball a party member?" and burn a charge or three on the really obvious spots. Even if the hiding person makes the save and isn't blinded, they are now outlined which will effectively break their invisibility.

Snapdragon Fireworks is an excellent first level spell which can be incredibly useful for flushing out bad guys who are hiding in cover. It can shoot around corners to some extent, and it lasts for rounds/level. So lets say you walk into a room with 8 pillars, and you're party is level 8. The casters uses Snapdragon Fireworks from safety and fires around the pillars. "OUCH, what the heck?" Yells out a voice from behind a pillar.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The enemy shouldn't be getting a suprise round if somebody on your team made the spot/listen/perception check to detect them before hand and relayed this info to the party. If he kept it to himself, he'd get to act in the suprise round same as the enemy since he was aware of them at the start of combat.

As for how to put a stop to this nonsense; option A is to talk to your DM. Some ambushes are fine, all ambushes is a problem. This is the better option but there is an option B; get mindsight. It'll cost you two character levels (1 for an arcane class, then 1 for mind-bender in complete arcane) and a feat (mindsight in Lords of Madness) but you will be completely unsuprisable within 100ft. You'll also be able to alert your allies silently via the telepathy that is prerequisite to the feat.

Why do you feel partially responsible anyway?

[grarrrg]

You could all take the Lookout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lookout-combat-teamwork) feat and then crowd around the guy who has Uncanny Dodge. At least that way everyone everyone gets to act in the surprise round. And you might even get an extra move action out of it.

Uncanny Dodge does not work like that.
But Lookout can still be helpful if _someone_ would be allowed to act in the Surprise round.
Level 3 of Holy Tactician Paladin can grant the whole party any 1 Teamwork feat, No Duration.



There are quite a few Initiative Boosting Classes/Archetypes, TO THE DIPPING GUIDE!
*batman transition music*
[copy/paste]
Note: the first number after the Class name is the level it starts are (some scale), an "A" with the number means it is an Archetype, an "S" means something Selected at 1st level (Mystery/School/etc...)

Cleric 1A, +1/2 level and always act in Surprise round (Divine Strategist)
Fighter 2A, +1, +1 every 4 levels after (Tactician)
Gunslinger 3, +2
Inquisitor 2, +Wis
Monk 1A, +1/2 level and always act in Surprise round (Sohei)
Oracle 1S, Roll twice, take best, can always act in the Surprise round at 7th, Roll thrice take best at level 11 (Battle or Time)
Oracle 1S, +4 (Juju or Nature)
Paladin 2A, +Cha, spend Smite Evil or Lay-on-Hands to act in Surprise round (Sword of Valor)
Ranger 1A, 3, +2 (or more) in Favored Terrain (Warden gets Favored Terrain at level 1)
Summoner 1A, +? Only if using Synthesist to get a higher Dex score
Wizard 1S, +1/2 level and always act in Surprise round (Divination specialization)

Duelist 2, +2, +4 at 8th level
Shieldmarshal 2, +1/2 level and always act in Surprise round

[Danakir]

Have you considered getting an item of Omen of Peril?

[nedz]

If you're always surprised no matter what you do, tell your DM to stop being a jerkdonkey or else he's not DM anymore.

Being a "challenge" is not an excuse.

It may just be that the DM doesn't know any better. A quite discussion, off line from the gaming table, may be all that's required.

[Twilightwyrm]

You could all take the Lookout feat and then crowd around the guy who has Uncanny Dodge. At least that way everyone everyone gets to act in the surprise round. And you might even get an extra move action out of it. That is a nice feat, and that had occurred to my PF group. Unfortunately, there is only one PF group, and in PF, traits (and my being a Gunslinger) means easily boosting initiative is rarely a problem. Incidentally, this campaign seems to be suffering from this problem least out of all, perhaps because of the easily raised perception and initiative bonuses intrinsic to PF. Still, it is a feat that is well worth looking into.

I once played in a campaign like this, the solution was to have someone on point with maxed spot and listen. It didn't always work, but it did help.
Increasing your parties stealth should help, or having the scouts 50' or so ahead.

Hmmm...this tactic might be worthwhile. It risks exposing the scout to being pincered, but with the proper application of invisibility or short range teleportation, this might not be an issue. As for stealth, it is an option to be sure, but considering that this seems to be happening just as much to the all stealth parties as the traditional composition parties, I'm a tad unsure of its effectiveness.


If you aren't generally being attacked on city streets where you it could be seen as socially unacceptable, you could consider using stealth everywhere you go.
Fly or teleport anywhere that's impractical to approach stealthily.
Turtle up. Spend the first round of every encounter casting obscuring mist or something. Fly straight up. Pull out tower sheilds an walk away. Essentially shift the Paradigm by refusing to engage the ambush. A fair fight or no fight.
Unfortunately I'm generally operating with low to mid level groups, so flying on all party members isn't really an option as of yet. Further, a couple of the parties are currently lacking significant spell casting support at the moment, making this prospect even more problematic. So in many cases, we would almost take more damage attempting to disengage and reengage at a better time than we would fighting it out.



If you're always surprised no matter what you do, tell your DM to stop being a jerkdonkey or else he's not DM anymore.
Being a "challenge" is not an excuse

See that's the thing, it is spread across multiple campaigns, with multiple DMs. Further, it is not making the fights unmanageable, or even entirely unfun. It is more akin to a somewhat frustrating trend I see emerging, that I would rather try to adapt to first, before being confrontational about something that may not justify it. Finally, I would rather first try demonstrating how such circumstances can be overcome or mitigated, so that at least the DMs that are players not just in my own campaigns, but in each others campaigns as well, can learn some ways of overcoming such situations when they come up (preferable once in a while).



I don't recommend an escalating Stealth VS Detection battle with your DM. It tends to go poorly. Being Invisible all day long is not always a good expenditure of resources when the DM can just throw Dispel or Glitterdust traps pretty much everywhere. Try to either increase your capabilities when surprised, or limit the actions of the bad guys in the event of an ambush.
[Various Options]

Yeah, such an escalation is what I want to avoid. I always try to be wary of situations that could lead to instances of M.A.D. in D&D, and I find such escalation isn't generally helpful for either party. As for the options, these are definitely interesting things to consider. Unfortunately, I'm not the primary spellcaster in any of these situations (and not a spellcaster at all in most of them), so I'll need to see what the spellcasters here might be wanting to work with. With the possible exception of cantrips in the the PF campaign, we are still low to mid level, so I suspect the spellcasters might somewhat resent having to waste their still finite spell resources on corner checking. In the case of dungeons, it is generally fairly easy to see the ambushes coming with the aforementioned skills, but actual dungeons aren't nearly as common as urban and forest warfare in our campaigns, where the enemy can already be entrenched in defensible positions, or behind natural concealment, even if we do win initiative.


The enemy shouldn't be getting a surprise round if somebody on your team made the spot/listen/perception check to detect them before hand and relayed this info to the party. If he kept it to himself, he'd get to act in the surprise round same as the enemy since he was aware of them at the start of combat.
As for how to put a stop to this nonsense; option A is to talk to your DM. Some ambushes are fine, all ambushes is a problem. This is the better option but there is an option B; get Mindsight. It'll cost you two character levels (1 for an arcane class, then 1 for mind-bender in complete arcane) and a feat (Mindsight in Lords of Madness) but you will be completely unsurprisable within 100ft. You'll also be able to alert your allies silently via the telepathy that is prerequisite to the feat.
Why do you feel partially responsible anyway?
I'll need to be more diligent of reminding people of this. (Or at least noting that I will be actively using Sense Motive to be unsurprised when we are talking with potential threats) That is a good plan, and I imagine at least one of the spellcasters in out group is on that path at the moment. For most of my characters that is a bit of an investment, but not I suppose not something that isn't worth doing.
I feel partially responsible mostly because, and I recognize I may be way off here, I was the first one to be actively DMing for the people in most of these groups (the PF group being the exception). So while I would like to think that I had a balanced mix of straight up fights (the majority of the time), and ambushes going either in the party's favor or the enemy's favor (less of the time, and more the former than the later), I cannot help but suspect, if you take my meaning. (I'd imagine it doesn't help that, in the two campaigns I DM, they've been recently taking on an assassin's guild, and waging guerrilla war respectively)


Uncanny Dodge does not work like that.
But Lookout can still be helpful if _someone_ would be allowed to act in the Surprise round.
Level 3 of Holy Tactician Paladin can grant the whole party any 1 Teamwork feat, No Duration.

There are quite a few Initiative Boosting Classes/Archetypes, TO THE DIPPING GUIDE!
*batman transition music*
[copy/paste]
Note: the first number after the Class name is the level it starts are (some scale), an "A" with the number means it is an Archetype, an "S" means something Selected at 1st level (Mystery/School/etc...)


Cleric 1A, +1/2 level and always act in Surprise round (Divine Strategist)
Fighter 2A, +1, +1 every 4 levels after (Tactician)
Gunslinger 3, +2
Inquisitor 2, +Wis
Monk 1A, +1/2 level and always act in Surprise round (Sohei)
Oracle 1S, Roll twice, take best, can always act in the Surprise round at 7th, Roll thrice take best at level 11 (Battle or Time)
Oracle 1S, +4 (Juju or Nature)
Paladin 2A, +Cha, spend Smite Evil or Lay-on-Hands to act in Surprise round (Sword of Valor)
Ranger 1A, 3, +2 (or more) in Favored Terrain (Warden gets Favored Terrain at level 1)
Summoner 1A, +? Only if using Synthesist to get a higher Dex score
Wizard 1S, +1/2 level and always act in Surprise round (Divination specialization)
Duelist 2, +2, +4 at 8th level
Shieldmarshal 2, +1/2 level and always act in Surprise round

I've looked over PF quite extensively, but it unfortunately only applied to one of the campaigns I'm involved in (maybe two...). This being said, know I am attempting to take full advantage of these various...options.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's no suprise round when a talk encounter breaks down. Unless the guy you're talking to is someone you percieve as an ally and he suddenly attacks, you were aware of the enemy when combat began; you were freakin' talking to him. Perception checks may be necessary to prevent the enemy's hidden allies from getting a suprise round, but sense motive should only be necessary for turn-coats.

If the potential for danger is there and not actively concealed, why would you let your guard down enough to be suprised?

[Karoht]

Yeah, such an escalation is what I want to avoid. I always try to be wary of situations that could lead to instances of M.A.D. in D&D, and I find such escalation isn't generally helpful for either party. As for the options, these are definitely interesting things to consider. Unfortunately, I'm not the primary spellcaster in any of these situations (and not a spellcaster at all in most of them), so I'll need to see what the spellcasters here might be wanting to work with. With the possible exception of cantrips in the the PF campaign, we are still low to mid level, so I suspect the spellcasters might somewhat resent having to waste their still finite spell resources on corner checking. In the case of dungeons, it is generally fairly easy to see the ambushes coming with the aforementioned skills, but actual dungeons aren't nearly as common as urban and forest warfare in our campaigns, where the enemy can already be entrenched in defensible positions, or behind natural concealment, even if we do win initiative.I know this is probably a poor knee-jerk reaction, but any time someone says it's easy to see ambushes in dungeons, I immediately think to Tucker's Kobolds and similar ambush tactics. Luckily, you aren't in that situation I take it. But, the same tactics do work well outside. In some cases they can work even better. Especially at night.

A wand of Alarm. Yeah, I know, sounds simple, but just place enough of these out in a wide enough perimeter, and in a few nearby trees and obvious cover points near camp. Sounds expensive? 750gp for 50 charges.

I found that most ambushes can be avoided, or turned into counterattacks, if you just remain aware of what points can be easily ambushed from, and either scrutinize them, ruin them, or lie in wait in one yourself.

So for example, the Alarm goes off. Maybe it's some tin cans on a string at your far perimeter. The watchperson wakes up the Rogue, who immediately stealths and checks the obvious ambush points. If they are all clear, the Rogue then picks one and waits. Sure enough, someone comes to take that ambush point, the Rogue does his job and raises the alarm again.

Lets say you walk into an area, there are rangers in trees shooting at you. They get all kinds of cover, you can't spot them. Fine. Break their line of sight.
Pyrotechnics is an excellent low-level spell, I highly recommend it.
Fog Cloud isn't bad either.
Or Minor Image yourself some cover. Why? As I understand it the caster can see through their own Illusions. So the rangers suddenly see a rather large amount of Foliage sprout out of nowhere and give you guy's cover to the point where they can't hit you. They will either withdraw, or investigate. If they withdraw, you avoid the damage for the time being. If they come down to investigate, you have an opening for counter attack.

Best of luck.

[Twilightwyrm]

There's no surprise round when a talk encounter breaks down. Unless the guy you're talking to is someone you perceive as an ally and he suddenly attacks, you were aware of the enemy when combat began; you were freakin' talking to him. Perception checks may be necessary to prevent the enemy's hidden allies from getting a surprise round, but sense motive should only be necessary for turn-coats.

If the potential for danger is there and not actively concealed, why would you let your guard down enough to be suprised?

Yes, this is a good point. And one I intend on making in the future. I suppose I suspected something was up here, but I suppose I assumed it was going down western style, where each party was eyeing the other, waiting for a movement that would indicate an attack so they could beat them to it.



I know this is probably a poor knee-jerk reaction, but any time someone says it's easy to see ambushes in dungeons, I immediately think to Tucker's Kobolds and similar ambush tactics. Luckily, you aren't in that situation I take it. But, the same tactics do work well outside. In some cases they can work even better. Especially at night.
A wand of Alarm. Yeah, I know, sounds simple, but just place enough of these out in a wide enough perimeter, and in a few nearby trees and obvious cover points near camp. Sounds expensive? 750gp for 50 charges.
I found that most ambushes can be avoided, or turned into counterattacks, if you just remain aware of what points can be easily ambushed from, and either scrutinize them, ruin them, or lie in wait in one yourself.
So for example, the Alarm goes off. Maybe it's some tin cans on a string at your far perimeter. The watchperson wakes up the Rogue, who immediately stealths and checks the obvious ambush points. If they are all clear, the Rogue then picks one and waits. Sure enough, someone comes to take that ambush point, the Rogue does his job and raises the alarm again.

Lets say you walk into an area, there are rangers in trees shooting at you. They get all kinds of cover, you can't spot them. Fine. Break their line of sight.
Pyrotechnics is an excellent low-level spell, I highly recommend it.
Fog Cloud isn't bad either.
Or Minor Image yourself some cover. Why? As I understand it the caster can see through their own Illusions. So the rangers suddenly see a rather large amount of Foliage sprout out of nowhere and give you guy's cover to the point where they can't hit you. They will either withdraw, or investigate. If they withdraw, you avoid the damage for the time being. If they come down to investigate, you have an opening for counter attack.

Funny, I'm not sure a single caster in any of my groups has access to any of those spells (Even Alarm in one case). I'll been needing to...rectify this situation.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yes, this is a good point. And one I intend on making in the future. I suppose I suspected something was up here, but I suppose I assumed it was going down western style, where each party was eyeing the other, waiting for a movement that would indicate an attack so they could beat them to it.

The guy that moves first can't possibly move fast enough (barring certain magics) to not have virtually everyone else in the room move at what is practically the same time. His more dextrous foes will even complete their action before he does. That is to say; when somebody's nerve cracks it's an initiative roll, not a suprise round.

Also remember that sense motive takes a minute of interaction to use actively. The only reflexive use for the skill is against a bluff.

[Twilightwyrm]

The guy that moves first can't possibly move fast enough (barring certain magics) to not have virtually everyone else in the room move at what is practically the same time. His more dextrous foes will even complete their action before he does. That is to say; when somebody's nerve cracks it's an initiative roll, not a suprise round.

Also remember that sense motive takes a minute of interaction to use actively. The only reflexive use for the skill is against a bluff.

Point taken.

[Karoht]

Funny, I'm not sure a single caster in any of my groups has access to any of those spells (Even Alarm in one case). I'll been needing to...rectify this situation.Scrolls and Wands if you need to. All of the low level (second level casting or lower) control spells make for excellent panic buttons on wands or scrolls if your casters can't get them onto their current spell lists.
I always say, a Wand of Alarm is an investment the whole party makes, and those 50 charges should last you well beyond when the spell becomes less useful.

[Phaederkiel]

hmmm. Isn't scent one of the easiest solution? You can either have any animal companion with scent in the group, or someone get a lvl in swordsage (which is an awesome dip anyway...1 lvl in it can fix so many problems...).

Unless your DM starts to give all enemies Darkstalker, scent should be pretty difficult to fool. You will have to ask a lot whence the wind blows, and should not come in from the same direction, but most enemies should be smellable.

And then the even easier way: have a character with a decent wisdom pump their listen checks. Again, animal companions are prime candidates (if your dm lets you chose their skills. But hey, listen is one of THE most flavourful skills for an animal), but druids, rangers, swordsages, factoti, even rogues, monks and Clerics can fill this role well.

If you notice a LOT of ambushes as a trend, may I ask if your parties (that learned a lot of their playing style from you, as I presume) tend to have weak perception skills?

I, as a DM, make every fight a possible ambush, if the party blunders enough.
And if the ranger took profession (chief) instead of survival and listen, the party will have more ambushes with their tasty food.

In the ghost-sound thread, someone mentioned how he makes a sound like a party of invisibles who cannot sneak whenever he suspects an ambush.
This is another great one for the lowlvl spells.

[Gavinfoxx]

hmmm. Isn't scent one of the easiest solution?

I actually mention that in my link! Along with Landshark Boots, Mindsight, and Lifesense. Some spotter would be something like...


Whisper Gnome Convert Spell to Power Erudite 5/Psionic Variant Mindbender 1
L1 Martial Study
Flaw1 Martial Stance - Hunter's Sense
Flaw2 Flexible Mind
Psicrystal - Observant
L3: Shape Soulmeld - Landshark Boots
L5 Bonus Psionic Feat ???
L6: Mindsight

[Phaederkiel]

yeah, this link contains near anything about perception :)

problem with your build (and many of the methods in the link )is (as with any dedicated build) that you are challenging the dm to a contest.

Instead of beeing the "I will find your ambush"-guy, it is much more practical to be the swordsage with all the funny and semieffective flavour who has accidentaly scent ("sorry, could not find anything better."), or the druid with a dog ("woof."

I always tend to think that it is best to be unobstrusive about these kind of things. And mindsight and the shenanigans needed to aquire it are the opposite of unobstrusive. Not to forget they are a steeeep investment for a character.

To find someone who is willing to spend some skillpoint is easier than to spend feats, to take 1 lvl swordsage is easier than going for a prestige and investing a feat...

not to mention that a DMs reaction to mindsight can only be Darkstalker. Which makes you need those spot and listen skills again.


@karoht oops, i repeated your ghost-sound tip. I did not read carefully enough.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If the DM counters mindsight by giving every purse-cutter and hoodlum darkstalker, you can call him out on being a killer DM. The resultant discussion will likely solve the problem one way or another.

You don't deliberately start the arms race to win, you start it to see if your DM will respond in kind, so you can spot the problem and nip it in the bud. Then you retrain the cheese options to something more reasonable and resume playing a more functional game.

Of note, but not worth de-railing the thread: Darkstalker overcoming mind-sight is only a maybe, not a definite yes. There've been arguments about it previously so if you doubt this claim either google "darkstalker V mindsight" or start a thread on the subject.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034.0

This talks about the issue fairly well; it's a scouting handbook. It talks about what works against what, and how and such.

[Phaederkiel]

not to every rogue, but to one, one that can well finish the job. If you are abusing something, and slip up even once, your enemies will find out what you do and hire an expert. As in "Stealthy McStabson, murderous sneak for hire".

But to be sure, if one of my players would come with said combination, I would just tell him not to. Or drop a sofa on the char. "Mindless, see?"

The same way that a group that scrys too much will one day get visited by a solar who explains to them, in friendly but strict tones, that too much scrying makes things to easy for them, which makes a boring game for the gods above slinging dice.

You don't start the arms race at all. It's more mature to ask the DM directly. Or to sneakily better some odds. But a tool which takes so much unpredictability out of the game as Mindsight does is not something a PC should have 24/7.

[Kelb_Panthera]

not to every rogue, but to one, one that can well finish the job. If you are abusing something, and slip up even once, your enemies will find out what you do and hire an expert. As in "Stealthy McStabson, murderous sneak for hire".

But to be sure, if one of my players would come with said combination, I would just tell him not to. Or drop a sofa on the char. "Mindless, see?"

The same way that a group that scrys too much will one day get visited by a solar who explains to them, in friendly but strict tones, that too much scrying makes things to easy for them, which makes a boring game for the gods above slinging dice.

You don't start the arms race at all. It's more mature to ask the DM directly. Or to sneakily better some odds. But a tool which takes so much unpredictability out of the game as Mindsight does is not something a PC should have 24/7.

I can see where you're coming from for mindsight (it's not hard to dial down a tick to make it reasonable, something as simple as adding a LoE requirement, but RAW it's nuts) but you're dramatically overestimating the value of scrying. Between its inherent limits and the myriad ways to foil or subvert it, it's only a problem if you let it be a problem; and that's for the entire scrying subschool, not just the actual scrying spell.

[Toliudar]

Good on you for not wanting to start an arms race! It does indeed sound like the "you are ambushed by..." is simply the style of your group. So it goes.

Having someone other than a PC be the one who sets off the ambush will help with survivability, and give the PC's additional space and options. If none of the PC's are sneaky mcsneakerson, hiring a scout to lead the way and sound out possible ambushes is both reasonable and not overpowered - especially if the scout is not a Scout (ie, not there to take part in combat, but simply to lead the way). Trained dogs might fulfill the same purpose.

[Phaederkiel]

well, scrying is widely accepted as one of the reasons that spellcasters are overpowered. Whenever someone says "yeah, but the wizard could have selected the wrong spells", only hollow laughter is the answer.

And when a group decides that dedicated scrying (with which I do not only mean the spell, but the concept) is in order, it is indeed hard to stop them without a direct veto. And while a lot of knowledge about whats coming may sometimes be cool, as soon as it happens too often it will sap the fun.

[mishka_shaw]

Argh we have exactly the same situation in the campaign I play in.
Although being ambushed is quite fun it is the distance the ambushes take place at which is a problem. One time we got ambushed in a sparse wood by over eighty enemies, they started 15 foot away :smalleek:

I guess you can use a wand of Minor Image than just everytime you are about to enter somewhere that you predict would be an ambush (which is a problem I admit) you just summon your minor image of a sneaking adventurer and send it forward, unless they pass a will save they will ambush it.

As Gavinfoxx said, Scent would be great too however this can be easily negated by the DM ruling it scentless or faded already, and if he wants to ambush you as much as it sounds...he likely will.

I am not a buff on psionics but might they have something a bit like spidey sense?

There is also a skill trick in complete scoundrel that enables someone with a lot of spot to enable an ally to re-roll their own spot check (not sure if this translates well into Pathfinder though).

[Gavinfoxx]

Spend some time playing with this, especially the spot/listen checks and distance thing: http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/

[Kelb_Panthera]

well, scrying is widely accepted as one of the reasons that spellcasters are overpowered. Whenever someone says "yeah, but the wizard could have selected the wrong spells", only hollow laughter is the answer.

And when a group decides that dedicated scrying (with which I do not only mean the spell, but the concept) is in order, it is indeed hard to stop them without a direct veto. And while a lot of knowledge about whats coming may sometimes be cool, as soon as it happens too often it will sap the fun.

Scrying spells have a very limited field of vision and are subject to not only magical misdirection in the form of a dozen or more abjurations, but even mundane misdirection by simple acts of subterfuge. If the BBEG isn't smart enough to control the information surrounding himself and his organization, he deserves what he's going to get.

[Tvtyrant]

You could always get the reserve feat which summons a little elemental, and then send it out in front of the party. If the enemy don't attack it then it should at least act in the surprise round, which will be reading off an explosive rune.

Actually, putting an explosive rune on its chest will always tell you if there are people directly ahead, because if they see the elemental it will go off.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd also like to say that focusing on lots of abilities that prevent you from being ambushed and getting information about what is coming up and such is a plausible way of saying to the DM, 'it is important to me that fights start from further away, and that I have methods to gain intelligence and information about the world around me, and that I not be surprised, and that I get the drop on enemies, and that you actually pay attention to the rules regarding distance and spotting things and scrying and such.'