Channel Spell: Is it actually any good?

[Snowbluff]

Now, I am not talking about the Duskblade, they have it good. I mean the other forms of channeling spells, like Ordained Champion or Arcane Archer.

Barring any tricky usage (AMF Arrow go!) the actual damage benefit of adding your weapon damage to your touch spell seems rather small. Sure, if I am an Ordained Champion, I probably have a decent Strength, Power Attack, and Divine Power, but Harm is a pretty good spell by itself, and hits on Touch. Or I can do a Full Attack and not waste the spell.

This is all assuming you have to hit with your weapon to get the spell to go off, not just touch.

[Telonius]

Hitting something through an attack gives the target an extra line of defense (besides SR and saves, if the spell allows it), so if the spell isn't Touch or Ray to begin with, it doesn't make sense to channel it through a weapon.

Touch AC is often lower than regular AC, so if it's possible to hit something with an attack through Spectral Hand, that's usually going to be better than channeling it through a weapon. Spectral Hand maxes out at 4th-level spells, but there aren't all that many higher-level Touch spells that you'd really want to use offensively. (Plane Shift, Temporal Stasis, and Imprisonment are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head).

(Note to self: see what sort of wacky synergy a Wizard/Unarmed Swordsage focused on Shadow Hand can get out of Spectral Hand...)

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think it is worth channelling spells when the spell is an add-on and not the primary form of attack. As telonius said, channeling an attack with the intention on only delivering the spell is a bad tradeoff; but if you instead are using the spell as an extra I believe it is much better.

An Ordained champion Channeling a shivering touch plus power attacking for full has a much better chance of dropping an enemy and even if said monster isn't dropped due HP damage or Dex damage it will be seriously debuff. Other nice spell like this is (greater) bestow curse.

[Keld Denar]

Classes like Spellsword and OC can hold their charges. This basically gives then a free spellstoring weapon. Prior to kicking the proverbial door down, one could channel a spell into their weapon and hold it, essentially converting an out of combat action into an in combat action. When everyone else has acted once, he will have effectively acted twice (one to attack, once to release the channeled spell).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Add an actual Spellstoring weapon (or bloodstone if you can cast Vampiric touch) and deliver two spells+damage.

[nedz]

All touch spells hold the charge; so as long as you are not in a hurry to get it off, or have multiple attacks, these are good. It might sometimes be worth making a touch attack at the beginning of a full attack sequence if that is likely to thin out the targets or if your damage is less than spectacular.

Imbue Arrow is probably best used on a BC AOE such as Evard's tentacles or even Web.

[Keld Denar]

But channeling isn't exactly like holding the charge. It doesn't stop you from casting other spells, and it can be delivered via weapon strike. Sure, normal AC is higher than touch AC in most cases, but you also benefit from weapon damage, including feats and weapon enhancements.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Now I am curious... how many spells can we deliver in the same round by channeling?

Arcane Channeling 1+Smiting Spell MM 1+ Bloodstone enhancement 1 (vampiric touch) + spellstoring enhancement 1 + Spell sword/Ordained Champion 1.

5 spells on a single attack.
Bestow Curse+Shocking Grasp+Vampiric Touch+ Lesser orb of X+ Shivering touch. A pretty nasty attack, though obviously not feasible to do regularly.

[eggs]

Barring any tricky usage (AMF Arrow go!) the actual damage benefit of adding your weapon damage to your touch spell seems rather small. Sure, if I am an Ordained Champion, I probably have a decent Strength, Power Attack, and Divine Power, but Harm is a pretty good spell by itself, and hits on Touch. Or I can do a Full Attack and not waste the spell.
I can't tell what you mean by tricky usage. What makes it good is that you can hit specific targets with things that would normally have an obnoxious area. That includes things like AMF, Silence, Blasphemy or Freezing Fog. Using the ability worse of course makes it perform worse.

In Ordained Champion/Spellsword's case, you full attack and cast the spell, plus the attack can have any riders that would normally be on a melee attack, like Knockdown or Knockback+Dungeoncrasher, and the spell can be cast alongside Swift/Standard action castings and can be released as an AoO.

In the Arcane Archer's case, one of the major draws is giving range to spells that normally have to emanate from the caster. It's not an incredible ability, but being able to drop Wings of Flurry without being in melee range does have its perks. I've also seen an argument that Imbue Arrow allows casting offensive spells in a Timestop, but that's sketchy enough that I don't know if I'd call it the default.

So I guess if the question is "Is it worth adding an attack roll and reducing area, just to do weapon+strength damage extra?" not at all. But if the question is "are they worth using?" the other benefits like target-specific targeting, melee rider effects and move action+AoO casting times make a pretty strong case IMO.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, but 1d8+Str+Power Attack isn't doing much, overall. Trading hit for damage is fine normally, but when your spell slots are involved I think I favor having an easier time hitting things.

I will have to check about touch spell and channeling, but I would say that using another touch spell would erase your last one you are holding.

The reason why I am bring this up is I have a Duskblade3/DreadNecro1, and I can Charnel Touch my spells rather than swing my sword, and it got me thinking about how useful channeling is for most people. So I thought I would pose the question.

[Lapak]

In the Arcane Archer's case, one of the major draws is giving range to spells that normally have to emanate from the caster. It's not an incredible ability, but being able to drop Wings of Flurry without being in melee range does have its perks. Those are all useful in the sense that having to run into melee to I've also seen an argument that Imbue Arrow allows casting offensive spells in a Timestop, but that's sketchy enough that I don't know if I'd call it the default.

So I guess if the question is "Is it worth adding an attack roll and reducing area, just to do weapon+strength damage extra?" not at all. But if the question is "are they worth using?" the other benefits like target-specific targeting, melee rider effects and move action+AoO casting times make a pretty strong case IMO.Arcane Archer is definitely the odd one out in this conversation. It can add area spells instead of single-target; the arrow can drastically extend the range as you point out, and (as this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11663884&postcount=122) from the Divine Crusader round of Iron Chef pointed out) imbuing can cut the casting time for spells that normally take a round or more to deliver. It's really a completely different thing from most of the other Channel-type options.

[Keld Denar]

Yeah, but 1d8+Str+Power Attack isn't doing much, overall. Trading hit for damage is fine normally, but when your spell slots are involved I think I favor having an easier time hitting things.

I will have to check about touch spell and channeling, but I would say that using another touch spell would erase your last one you are holding.

The reason why I am bring this up is I have a Duskblade3/DreadNecro1, and I can Charnel Touch my spells rather than swing my sword, and it got me thinking about how useful channeling is for most people. So I thought I would pose the question.

If you miss, the spell isn't wasted. If you hit the next round, it gets delivered. Its the same as if you had delivered the spell in the first round and then missed with a melee attack in the second. Its a more efficient use of a spell than Arcane Strike. And you are forgetting about things like Knowledge Devotion and fancy weapon mods like Wounding.

And I don't think you can Arcane Channel through a Charnal Touch. While weapon-like, it is not a weapon, and Arcane Channel specifically calls out needing a weapon.

[Axier]

And I don't think you can Arcane Channel through a Charnal Touch. While weapon-like, it is not a weapon, and Arcane Channel specifically calls out needing a weapon.

But don't Weapon Likes function as Weapons?

[Dusk Eclipse]

But don't Weapon Likes function as Weapons?

Only for certain things, such as qualifying for precision damage and being affected by some feats.

[Snowbluff]

You can't channel with Charnel Touch, but you can use it to touch with spells, IIRC. It's what the DN handbook says, and my DM agrees.

Knowledge Devotion affects you your spells as well, IIRC. Weapon mods are handy, but costly.

[Keld Denar]

Weapon-like is not the same as weapon. Inspire Courage, for example, gives a bonus to weapon damage rolls. It wouldn't affect Scorching Ray damage. While Scorching Ray is weapon-like, and behaves in many ways similar to a weapon, it is a spell, not a weapon. Charnal Touch attacks similar to a weapon. It can crit like a weapon. It can deliver Sneak Attack like a weapon, but it is not a weapon, it is a SU ability.

[Snowbluff]

It brings up an interesting point though. Charnel Touch is a melee damage roll. Does my Power Attack affect it?

[MesiDoomstalker]

It brings up an interesting point though. Charnel Touch is a melee damage roll. Does my Power Attack affect it?

RAW, not sure. RAI, probably no. However, the mental image of summoning all your strength to touch someone harder is amusing. Doubly amusing when your targeting your undead minions.

[Keld Denar]

Charnal Touch doesn't have a weapon size assigned to it. It isn't light, one handed, or two handed. Lacking that, I'd wager that you can't. I do seem to recall that touch spells are finessable, which, if anything, indicates that they are light, since the only finessable non-light weapons specifically mention they are, and Charnal Touch has no such designation. If it is light, you couldn't PA with it either.

So either it isn't a weapon and you can't PA with it, or it is a weapon-like light "weapon" and you can't PA with it. That's how I interpret it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It brings up an interesting point though. Charnel Touch is a melee damage roll. Does my Power Attack affect it?

No. Power attack adds bonus damage to a weapon attack. If you deliver your charnel touch via unarmed strike then you can power attack, but that'd add to the unarmed strike damage, not the negative energy damage.

[Snowbluff]

No. Power attack adds bonus damage to a weapon attack. If you deliver your charnel touch via unarmed strike then you can power attack, but that'd add to the unarmed strike damage, not the negative energy damage.

The word weapon never shows up in the Benefits portion of the feats. Light weapons are excluded, but abilities don't seem to be.

Also, how does channeling these abilities as an Unarmed work?

[ericgrau]

There are two kinds of arcane archers: the wizard and the archer. Hybrids fall into theurge syndrome, except it's more like a cleric 10/wizard 10 than a mystic theurge. The wizard kind is the kind that likes imbue arrow and so he only dips 2 levels. Then you do basically take it for AMF arrows and a couple other nice area spells. Another niche option is to take far shot and extend your spell range to 2,200 feet. Evard's black tentacles + fireball sniping is go. The archer arcane archer doesn't get much use out of imbue arrow though you might try minor tricks like alarm sniping. And no, arcane archer doesn't advance arrow damage fast enough to make an arrow damage / spell damage hybrid better than simply focusing on spell damage.

[Urpriest]

Charnal Touch doesn't have a weapon size assigned to it. It isn't light, one handed, or two handed. Lacking that, I'd wager that you can't. I do seem to recall that touch spells are finessable, which, if anything, indicates that they are light, since the only finessable non-light weapons specifically mention they are, and Charnal Touch has no such designation. If it is light, you couldn't PA with it either.

So either it isn't a weapon and you can't PA with it, or it is a weapon-like light "weapon" and you can't PA with it. That's how I interpret it.

I'm fairly certain touch attacks are by default light. I can't provide a reference at the moment though.

[Snowbluff]

There are two kinds of arcane archers: the wizard and the archer. Hybrids fall into theurge syndrome, except it's more like a cleric 10/wizard 10 than a mystic theurge. The wizard kind is the kind that likes imbue arrow and so he only dips 2 levels. Then you do basically take it for AMF arrows and a couple other nice area spells. Another niche option is to take far shot and extend your spell range to 2,200 feet. Evard's black tentacles + fireball sniping is go. The archer arcane archer doesn't get much use out of imbue arrow though you might try minor tricks like alarm sniping. And no, arcane archer doesn't advance arrow damage fast enough to make an arrow damage / spell damage hybrid better than simply focusing on spell damage.

Yeah, the AMF arrow is what I meant by tricky usages. Ofcourse it's a good idea to use weird spells with channel.

One good build for Arcane Archer involves Divine Crusader. Pick up a nice Domain (a notable one is Winter. Fimbulwinter as a standard?)

[Dusk Eclipse]

Didn't one of the Iron chef for Divine Crusader use Winter Domain?

[ericgrau]

There are more. Check out wail of the banshee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wailOfTheBanshee.htm). Note the range issues and ally affecting issues. Both not good with a 40 foot radius. Imbue solves it. The other spells likewise tend to be high level meaning you take a late dip, but spell compendium might have more options. Besides personal range area spells look into close range spells.

Ordained champion's channel spell looks pretty good. I mean it's full BAB and partial casting so you're still hitting pretty hard and getting some casting. And it doesn't matter that the spell is no longer a touch attack because it stays in your weapon when you miss. Eventually it will hit, which in some sense is better than a touch attack. Heck you can do it hours before combat. That's like a free action auto-hit (eventually) harm :smalleek:.

The prestige class looks strong for any melee cleric except maybe a DMM persist cleric. And even then you could still grab it after your DMM persist is fully online.

[Keld Denar]

Also, how does channeling these abilities as an Unarmed work?

If you don't have Arcane Channeling of some sort, you have to spend a standard action to cast the spell, then hold the charge for the round, THEN make an attack on your next turn. Normally casting a touch spell allows you a free TOUCH attack to deliver it. An UAS is not a touch attack, though, and so you can't use your free attack to make an UAS. If you have Arcane Channeling of some sort, and you can channel it into your UAS (debatable, as UAS are both weapons and not weapons), then the action is whatever action the Channeling is (standard for Duskblade, including the attack, move for Spellswords, with minimum standard action attack delivery).


Yeah, the AMF arrow is what I meant by tricky usages. Ofcourse it's a good idea to use weird spells with channel.

One good build for Arcane Archer involves Divine Crusader. Pick up a nice Domain (a notable one is Winter. Fimbulwinter as a standard?)

Another is Sublime Chord. You only need a few levels of Bard to get all of the prereqs for SC, so you could squeeze in 2 levels of AA prior to ECL 11 without too much trouble. Skills will be tight, but not impossible.

[Lapak]

Didn't one of the Iron chef for Divine Crusader use Winter Domain?
Yes, the one I linked to (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11663884&postcount=122) in my post above (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14190282&postcount=11).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yes, the one I linked to (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11663884&postcount=122) in my post above (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14190282&postcount=11).

Sorry, didn't catch that when I posted.


If you don't have Arcane Channeling of some sort, you have to spend a standard action to cast the spell, then hold the charge for the round, THEN make an attack on your next turn. Normally casting a touch spell allows you a free TOUCH attack to deliver it. An UAS is not a touch attack, though, and so you can't use your free attack to make an UAS. If you have Arcane Channeling of some sort, and you can channel it into your UAS (debatable, as UAS are both weapons and not weapons), then the action is whatever action the Channeling is (standard for Duskblade, including the attack, move for Spellswords, with minimum standard action attack delivery).


Could you hold the charge of a spell and deliver it via unarmed strike during an attack of opportunity? If you had a multi-touch spells (like chill touch) and double hit it might be interesting.

[Snowbluff]

@Keld Okay. So If have Chill Touch or Produce flame active, I can go and slap someone for a full attack and release the touches?

Yeah I would have cited the Winter AA build if I had the link. :smallredface:

All of the Channeling have nice uses. Ordained Champion's works like a long duration Smiting spell/spell storing and you can use weird spells with it (I think you can use personal spells :smalleek:)

[Lapak]

Sorry, didn't catch that when I posted.No worries, I didn't intend for the tone to be accusative there. Just wanted to point it out because it is a pretty nifty build.

[Gwendol]

Not sure if this was pointed out earlier, but OC channeling is different from Duskblade in a couple of ways. Most importantly any spell can be channeled, not just touch spells, which really makes the ability a lot more versatile.

[Snowbluff]

Not sure if this was pointed out earlier, but OC channeling is different from Duskblade in a couple of ways. Most importantly any spell can be channeled, not just touch spells, which really makes the ability a lot more versatile.

Yeah, I think the forum ate my post that said they were different. I was pointing out you could channel AMF or Divine Power. Darn it.

Duskblade Channeling is faster, and be used for a full attack (and the rest of your round). A single level dip and Versatile Spellcaster gives you a plethora of spells to use as well.

[Piggy Knowles]

Glad people like the Arcane Archer build! I had a lot of fun with that one.

I actually made a topic on other ways the same concept could be toyed with a while back over on the minmaxboards (here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=626.0)). Here's a copy of my thoughts from there:


So, in working on a build some time ago over at GitP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11663884&postcount=122), I came across this interesting little tidbit with the Arcane Archer:


Imbue Arrow (Sp)
At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Emphasis mine. The casting time is given as a flat standard action, regardless of the spell itself. So this means spells that otherwise are prohibitive to cast because of absurdly long casting times can suddenly become fair game to use mid-battle.

Anyhow, I had a lot of fun with those shorter casting times on the Iron Chef build, but I know there's a ton more to be explored with the idea. Any build that can afford to be an elf/half-elf (blegh) and drop 2-3 levels (double blegh) can pick this otherwise fairly cool ability up. I'd be curious to see what thoughts people had on neat tricks that this could be combined with.

I pulled up all the spells I could find with really long casting times that are valid targets for Imbue Arrow. Some of them are a bit silly (Weather Eye? Really?), but whatever. I'm trying to be complete here. I might add sources later, if anyone actually finds this interesting. I'm sure I missed a bunch, so feel free to pipe in if you know of any.

AREA SPELLS WITH ABSURDLY LONG CASTING TIMES

Anticipate Teleportation
Apocalypse from the Sky (I was really hoping this would be first on the list - stupid Anticipate Teleportation!)
Blinding Glory (Long duration Daylight in a huge area... pretty cool to shout "let there be light!" and fire this off, but really not worth a level 9 spell.)
Consecrate Battlefield
Control Weather (The best effects still don't come online for another ten minutes, unfortunately, but this is the spell that made me look into this as a tactic.)
Desecrate Battlefield
Energy Transformation Field
Evil Weather (This one might actually be worthwhile.)
Fimbulwinter (Are you bored of weather spells yet? I am!)
Forbiddance
Glyph of Warding
Greater Anticipate Teleportation
Greater Glyph of Warding
Guards and Wards (Fun!)
Hallow
Hallucinatory Terrain
Hide the Path
Hindight (Know everything about an area, instantly.)
Mage's Private Sanctum
Nature's Rampart
Raise Hummock (http://132.209.40.23/w4/campagne/Downloads/Downloads_WotC/The%20Far%20Corners%20of%20the%20World%20Spells%20 of%20the%20Wetland.htm) (Holy geez this is an expensive spell to cast - hope you like swamps!)
Screen
Shadow Landscape
Shifting Paths
Skyrift (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20050114a) (Would be way cooler without the crazy focus.)
Spread of Savagery (Cool spell, but what is up with the material components from BoVD? Brain fluid? Really?)
Unhallow
Utterdark
Weather Eye (Probably the stupidest possible use of this.)
Zone of Respite

My Thoughts

A few of this seem particularly interesting to me.

First off, Hallucinatory Terrain, Guards and Wards, Nature's Rampart, and similar spells. These are all spells that could have absurd effects on a battle, but have super long casting times, because they're meant to be used in a "preparing for the big fight" or "defending my home from invaders" style circumstance. But what if you could cast them more or less whenever you wanted? That's pretty cool.

Second, I don't know why, but I really like the imagery behind using this for Hindsight and similar spells. Fire an arrow, get a near-instant tremendous boatload of background information going back - well, as far as you want.

Third, where this gets really wonky is with spells that involve other spells. I'm specifically thinking about Energy Transformation Field (which is a terribly-worded spell to begin with), but Glyph of Warding could also be interesting. The wording on Glyph of Warding just says that I store any harmful spell of 3rd-level or lower that I know, so there's nothing stopping me from imbuing pretty much any low-level spell using Glyph/Greater Glyph, right?

Fourth, Apocalypse from the Sky. Come on.... you KNOW you want to.


(Note that I don't mention it until a later post, but a bunch of the spells on that list are Corrupt spells, meaning that they can be picked up via the Corrupt Arcana feat from HoH.)

Even though I started the thread about the Arcane Archer, it did end up expanding to Spellsword and Ordained Champion, although the thread didn't end up getting THAT far...

[Snowbluff]

Thanks for the build. It's a credit its species (TM).

Standard action Gurads and Wards sounds like a blast. Shot an arrow of that into a taver, and watch everyone try and get out, lol.

[Tvtyrant]

Channel spell is nice if you have SA and want to bypass DR. If you channel a force spell you do force SA, which is just gravy.

[Snowbluff]

Channel spell is nice if you have SA and want to bypass DR. If you channel a force spell you do force SA, which is just gravy.

If the base damage doesn't overcome the DR, additional stuff doesn't work, like poison or SA. I think that applies to Channeled spells as well.

[nedz]

... Interesting Stuff...

The standard action version of Hallucinatory Terrain is called Mirage Arcana BTW :smallwink:

[Keld Denar]

If the base damage doesn't overcome the DR, additional stuff doesn't work, like poison or SA. I think that applies to Channeled spells as well.

No, that only applies to injection poisons. It definitely does not apply to SA.

I think TvTyrant is wrong. If you are channeling a spell and you have a source of SA, the SA damage will be weapon damage, not spell damage. If you SA with a Shocking Grasp, then yes, the SA will be [Electricity] damage. If you Arcane Channel a Shocking Grasp, the base damage, the SA damage, the Str bonus to damage, and the Power Attack damage will all be physical weapon damage, the sum of which will be checked against DR. The Shocking Grasp is [Electricity] damage on top of that which gets checked against Electricity Resistance, if any.

[Tvtyrant]

No, that only applies to injection poisons. It definitely does not apply to SA.

I think TvTyrant is wrong. If you are channeling a spell and you have a source of SA, the SA damage will be weapon damage, not spell damage. If you SA with a Shocking Grasp, then yes, the SA will be [Electricity] damage. If you Arcane Channel a Shocking Grasp, the base damage, the SA damage, the Str bonus to damage, and the Power Attack damage will all be physical weapon damage, the sum of which will be checked against DR. The Shocking Grasp is [Electricity] damage on top of that which gets checked against Electricity Resistance, if any.

Rereading the Weaponlike Spells entry, I am inclined to agree (sadly). A channeled spell no long requires an attack role, and so the spell no long triggers sneak attack.