Low-magic Class Tweaks

[prufock]

I'm building a new campaign setting from the ground up. It's going to be low-magic, so one of the first things I did was say "No tier 1 or tier 2 classes." Now this still leaves a few full casters: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, maybe more. I was considering getting rid of the higher level spells.

How much would it hurt these classes, tier-wise, to reduce them to a bard-like spellcasting progression? That is, 6th level spells max and slower advancement. I know warmage is already tier 4, and this would likely drop it further.

I've also been considering making similar classes to these focused spellcasters available. Beguiler is enchantment/illusion, Necromancer is necromancy, Warmage is evocation, Healer is healing. I've considered opening conjuration to the Warmage spell list (or at least part of the conjuration school) and giving it some better class features, as well as adding something to DN and Healer.

Or should I leave the spell progressions alone and go through spell lists, nixing powerful spells from the game for this setting?

Thoughts are appreciated, Playground.

[Answerer]

You'd do better to find a new system.

3.5 is, by default and design, extremely high magic. You cannot change this simply. I laud your approach insofar as it's not the usual "low magic = low wealth" mistake, but you wouldn't be able to stop just with the classes. There are also an enormous number of monsters, traps, locations, situations, and encounters that would have to change. 3.5 is not designed for this. There are systems that are.

[prufock]

You're probably right, but let's assume I'm going to try just the same ;)

This setting is going to be pretty limited. Playable races will be limited to a half dozen or so. Monsters are going to be slashed and burned. I'm creating a short list of deities, combining several planes into one (similar to 4e in that regard, actually).

I know it's a big undertaking. I think I'm drawn to the challenge as much as anything.

However, if you'd like to suggest another system, I'd appreciate that too.

[Answerer]

Well, as long as you're not planning on stopping with the classes, you're probably taking the right approach.

Unfortunately, I really have zero personal interest in low-magic, so I cannot direct you to any such system. I know they exist, though. Iron Heroes is a name I hear thrown around often?

Dropping the casters to a Bard-like progression is probably reasonable. For the Bard itself, you can drop its spellcasting altogether. I recommend the Athas.org Dark Sun Bard for some ideas there.

Balance... could potentially be better, though of course everyone will be weaker.

[Jeraa]

If you don't mind something that is out of print, I would suggest the Conan d20 rules from Mongoose Publishing. Its designed for a lower magic setting. There are no elves, dwarves, or anything like that, but that can easily be houseruled back in.

[Eldariel]

I'm currently playing a low-magic game where the caster classes are removed entirely. The only other thing you really need is a class defense bonus to AC that scales by level. This is because offense scales by level normally but defense only scales by magic items and some rare class features. This leaves AC-scaling hopelessly behind To Hit scaling without a class-based defense bonus.

Pathfinder is a better platform for low-magic than 3.5; the skill list is more condensed so it's easier to do things in there (skills do for non-casters what spells do in many games). I like giving out more skill points than default too; it's fun to have skilled characters who are at least somewhat decent in multiple skills. I'm journalling the low-magic campaign we've been running for few years now and every single skill has been rolled at least once. We're also using ToB classes for everything (including some homebrew) though that's of course down to personal preference.


I'm also running a slightly different low magic game with Psionics and ToB. Psionics is obviously heavily restricted and some default rules that favor casters (5' steps, defensive casting, etc.) have been retooled or removed.

In this game every character also has what amounts to a Relic as their only magic item that improves with level (they unlock its potential and stuff), and has a variety of powers. All 3 characters have weapons as theirs.


EDIT: Oh, we also give more feats (2 feats level 1 and one on 2, 4, 6, every even level thereafter) and stats increase faster naturally. Stats are normally increased by items but low-magic means no such thing so e.g. +1/level (can't raise the same stat more than once every 5 levels) and +1 to all every stat every 5 levels seems to work out pretty well.

It's really easy in the end.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How low are you shooting for?

When I do low-magic I nix anything that's a caster (including PrC's with independent casting), leaving only the magewright (ecs) and the adept to perform duties as arcane and divine respectively. Bard gets PrC'd, ranger and paladin both have to choose a non-spellcasting variant. Warlocks get added back in to be the legendary crafters.

Magic items that require a spell not on the magewright or adept list are extremely rare; the stuff of legends (except for the amulet of natural armor, add barkskin to the adept list)

The game becomes much more about the PC's class features, and you rarely get a spellcasting PC unless he's willing to really work for it.

[Fable Wright]

I've actually thought about a lower-magic setting before. It becomes a question of what you mean by "Low." My favorite way to do low magic is not to try to cut out a lot of magic out of the game, but to make the magic in the game slightly rarer and have a lower level cap. For the setting I was thinking of, I was planning on ripping out all classes with 1/2 BAB progression and all classes that get 9th level spells/powers, and all Prestige classes that grant spells over 4th level. The setting, in my eyes at least, becomes a lot more interesting.

Factotums become the most powerful spellcasting classes in the system, with Bards and Psionic Warriors in a close second; Factotums essentially become the new Tier 1 class, as they have access to the entire Sorcerer/Wizard list. They're not too powerful, though, given their lack of duplicate spells, and the slower progression. Rangers and Paladins actually get some respect as casters, as the ability to cast any spells is relatively rare in the setting, and the Ranger/Paladin lists can do some awesome things. Warlocks' Dark Invocations become as awesome as advertised; they produce spell effects of a higher level than achievable by just about any other classes. They become the best minionmancers in the setting, as they can cast Animate Dead multiple times per day. (Factotums can only do so once per day, but they can create more dangerous, and less controlled, undead.) Flight becomes rare again, and so the classes that get it (Totemist, Warlock, and Factotum) gain an awesome tactical advantage.

What I'm trying to say is, when the people that are made to rely on magic are taken out of the system, the magic that's left becomes much more impressive because it's harder to get ahold of, and that's what I think a low-magic system should be. D&D 3.5 was designed to run with magic in mind; some encounters need magic to work, and when it's cut out entirely, games fall apart. When you limit magic, it makes the magic that remains so much more awesome. Hexblade's spellcasting actually becomes pretty useful.

Back to your question, I would take them out entirely. I know it sounds odd when you want to just chop away the main root of the problem, the tier 1 or 2 classes, but I think that getting rid of the classes altogether would be the best way to solve the problem, for a number of reasons. First off, magic is those character's lifeblood. They're given 1/2 BAB, and so are 100% reliant on their spells in combat, unlike the Bard. Their spells per level are going to be shot terribly, meaning they're going to really have to make a concerted effort to hold onto their spells, meaning they're not doing much during combat at all, and unlike the Bard or Factotum, they don't have much to do when they can't cast. And just going through their list and nixing parts of their list can lead to very few options in combat; many spells on the lists are included for thematic reasons, and don't help that much in combat. And, for some reason, I just feel that they don't fit in with the feel of a low-magic setting.

To get the feel of one, in my opinion, is to have one where no character is actually reliant on magic to function. When magic is something powerful that is used by a select few, it suddenly takes on different tones than when people are slinging spells around like there's no tomorrow. All the 1/2 BAB classes were created to rely on something other than melee combat to be useful in encounters, and most of them are spells. When people rely on spells to be useful in combat, rather than powerful tricks someone can whip out, it becomes much more mundane than when people can hold their own in combat without magic, and the suddenly become a lot more terrifying when they do get magic. Think of the world I described above, with Factotums being the best spellcasters in the setting. They've got access to a huge variety of spells. Nevertheless, they can't just sling them around all the time in combat; they're going to run out too quickly, then. They can function without the magic, and then whip out spells when things get desperate, rather than as a first and only resort. This gives magic the low-magic kind of feel, because he doesn't rely on magic to do things. As soon as you give a class the number of spell slots and variety of spells that a Beguiler or Warmage, magic begins to lose the feel of a rarely used, powerful measure, and becomes part of the routine. Getting magic back to that rarely used feel, I think, is the goal of low-magic settings. Bards can jeopardize this feel, just because of the fact that they get so many spells and the spells can be used just about anywhere. Because they can do powerful things that don't rely on magic, they could work in the system. However, if you do add them in, there is one important change that I feel should be made: No bonus spell slots from a high Charisma for them. Half-caster lists, such as Hexblade and Ranger? Sure, they can get them. But to discourage that magic as first and last resort feel, keeping them to a low number of spells per day works well. And as the player becomes much more conscious about how valuable his slots are to him, he starts using them more sparingly, contributing to the target feel of magic actually meaning something.

tl;dr: The goal of a low-magic setting is to make magic feel special, which is achieved by making it something rarely invoked. When someone's main method of contributing to the party is by casting spells, magic becomes much more mundane. For this reason, you should nix classes like the Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer, and cut off the bonus spells of the Bard, to keep the feeling of magic being rare, without cutting it out from the system that relies on it altogether.

[nedz]

...

How much would it hurt these classes, tier-wise, to reduce them to a bard-like spellcasting progression? That is, 6th level spells max and slower advancement. I know warmage is already tier 4, and this would likely drop it further.

...

It would hurt them quite a bit, but not enough. The low magic variant of 3.5 is E6, and that caps with level 3 spells.

The underlying issue is called Fighter linear, Wizard quadratic. Scaling the casters back linearly does not change this, it only delays the inevitable.
What you could do is scale the progression back using a radical function, this would make the casters linear.
So that would look something like this.

Level 1 spells at character level 1
Level 2 spells at character level 4
Level 3 spells at character level 9
Level 4 spells at character level 16
Level 5 spells at character level 25

[Eldariel]

It would hurt them quite a bit, but not enough. The low magic variant of 3.5 is E6, and that caps with level 3 spells.

The underlying issue is called Fighter linear, Wizard quadratic. Scaling the casters back linearly does not change this, it only delays the inevitable.
What you could do is scale the progression back using a radical function, this would make the casters linear.

E6 isn't really low-magic tho. You still have game-altering stuff like Endure Elements, Invisibility, Fly, Alter Self, etc. It's much higher magic than e.g. Lord of the Rings for sure.

The only way to truly go low-magic is to either make casting spells way harder or a much more extreme version of those rules (or altering the spells themselves) or just removing spellcasters entirely. Mind, it works perfectly fine in 3.5; there's a lot of rules in PHB/DMG that are almost never relevant in a high magic game but there's rules for fires, smoke inhalation, travel rates for various vessels, rules for getting lost in different kinds of terrains, regaining your bearing, and so on, rules for earthquakes, forest fires, bog eyes, cold and hot climates, forced march and so on.

Tons of skills based around not having magic to do stuff also exist. It's all there; the game is almost designed to be played without magic. Magic just kinda overtakes all that, to the point where many players aren't even familiar with these rules. That said, I find while simplistic, these rules are relatively well-written. So far I've enjoyed my low-magic games immensely (of course playing with ToB-classes; those are darn well designed).

[limejuicepowder]

If you really want to run a low-magic game, I recommend you just tell your players they can't play full casters, simple as that. The alternative is to nerf caster to the point that they basically become unplayable as a PC (who wants to play the character that who's major roll in combat is running away/hiding, because their spells are so scarce?). This also creates serious gear issues, since by even mid level mundanes are expected to be able to handle certain types of challenges.....seriously, skip that noise.

My list of recommendations:
-Ban casters, all of them. Reserve them for carefully controlled powerful NPC's or forget about them entirely, just don't let the players play 'em
-Each character gets an untyped bonus to AC equal to 1/2 BaB (I play with this houserule regardless, but I think it's even more important in this case)
-Make an add-on to the crafting system so that weapons and armor can be manufactured to have +X bonuses. Thus, a greatsword +4 still exists, it's just not magical

Then just make w/e kind of story you want.

[Hecuba]

You should heavily consider getting rid of all classes with spell-casting as their primary ability. As DMofDarkness, moving magic primarily outside the player's hands can help make it seem more rare and important.

If you do keep caster classes available to PCs, my recommendations are as follows:

Use the Adept and Magewright chassis for divine and arcane "full casters" respectively. Tweak spell list\availability as needed. Level 6+ spell effects, if needed, should be addressed through the incantation variant.
Consider substantially increasing concentration check DCs.
Move Bard (if retained) down to capping @ 4th level spells. Consider what additional low level abilities would be necessary to move entirely over to paladin\ranger (delayed) progression. (I've not looked at it, but the dark sun bard mentioned by Answerer might be better).
Allow meta-magic sparingly (if at all). (Same with reserve feats, etc.)
Be prepared to reevaluate CR even more than usual for each encounter.
Recognize that an unmodified fighter is still behind the power curve.


Alternately, this might be a good place to replace normal casting with Shadow magic (without the author's fix) and Truenaming. They will generally still have too high a top though. Shadowcaster may need to be scaled back in mid levels too.

[Quellian-dyrae]

My advice for low-magic with magic remaining a viable option would be to leave the spellcasting progressions as they are, but remove the actual spells above fourth level. Set spell save DCs to 10 + 1/2 class level + casting modifier, rather than 10 + Spell Level + casting modifier. Higher level spell slots are metamagic fodder.

Actual magic items should be very rare, purely special rewards placed by the DM, but characters use WBL to purchase innate boosts that can duplicate the standard stat-buffing items (weapon and armor enhancement, resistance, deflection, and natural armor bonus, ability enhancement, inherent bonuses, etc). The weapon enhancement applies to any weapon wielded.

Casters should still be able to make fully level-appropriate contributions, and there's still enough spells that most any general concept should be viable, but the really major game changers (Teleport, Fabricate, Raise Dead, Permanency, Control Winds/Weather, etc) are mostly out.

[dextercorvia]

If you drop casters back to the bard progression, it isn't too bad. But, you might want to increase the number of cantrips they can cast. It won't change the overall power level, but will give them more of a caster feel at low levels. Otherwise they can only cast two spells at first level.

I recommend giving them an additional number of cantrip slots per day equal to their casting modifier.

[prufock]

Lots of ideas here.

Reading this, it looks like the best route for me to take in this setting would be E6, but perhaps modified.


The goal of a low-magic setting is to make magic feel special, which is achieved by making it something rarely invoked
You've pretty much hit the nail on the head. This is sort of why I was looking at Bard as my magic-user template. It has other abilities to use in both combat and non-combat situations (3/4 BAB, Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, good skill list) and a more limited spells known and spells per day than full casters.

To do something similar with the other full casters, for example, Beguiler could be made a little more rogue-like: give it 3/4 BAB and a (slower) sneak attack progression to make up for the lost spell progression. It already has a good skill list and points to spend. Dread Necro already has some decent combat options with its touch attacks, DR, and negative energy burst. Maybe bringing it up to a 3/4 BAB also would be OK. Warmage... again, maybe 3/4 BAB and a few fighter bonus feats.

E6 may make these changes unnecessary. If I go E6 I will likely still eliminate tier 1 and 2 classes as PC options, saving them for NPC villains. E6 would also mean less reinventing the wheel.

[Feralventas]

Due to their restricted spell-lists, classes like the Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer are already on-par with the Bard in terms of effective utility and power. There are some cheesy dips that would disrupt that balance (sand-shaper dip, for example) but for the most part they are pretty solid but aren't likely to overstep themselves the way a core sorc or druid might.

Alternatively, a friend of mine and fellow DM runs a game where any class with 9th level spells or equivalents (psionics, mysteries) are allowed 3 levels when they start before being required to multi-class at least once every 3 levels after.
So, Caster 3, Fighter1, Caster 4-5, Fighter2, caster 6-7, fighter 3 and so on.

This has helped slow the scale of spell-power, makes 6th level-caped classes more powerful because they have a better effective caster level on their own as well as full access to their own class features, while encouraging diversity in the party. We have a Battle Sorcerer/Fighter on the front-line, a Wizard/Cleric Mystic Theurge (juggling Wizard, Theurge, Cleric, Wizard to keep gaining caster levels without going more than 2 caster levels of either side at a time) and I'm using a Cleric/Gunslinger mix as a ranged support/heal. Meanwhile, the two rangers are keeping up in utility via class features as much as their spell lists, our Rogue/Alchemist is doing well in combat (dipped alchemist for down-time crafting capacity) and a Barbarian who thoroughly enjoys power-attacking the heck out of things.

That option may also help. If someone wants to go full 'caster focus, they can mix 'caster classes and still have plenty of "mage" feel to it (Wizard/Sorc via Ultimate Magus if they Must go double arcane, MT for Divine/Arcane, and Cerebramacer for Psi/Arcane). 'Caster thieves like Arcane Tricksters and the like can mix in Rogue, or Scout, or Spellthief. Caster' fighters like Druid/Barbarians or sorcadins work fine too. I don't know of a double-divine casting class, but Cleric/Mystic or Favored Soul/Archivist could probably work as pure divine characters as well.

If concerned that the low-level alternate class features might not suffice or scale well, Tome of Battle's multi-classing rules make Swordsage, Warblade and Crusader great for this as well.

This also means that 7th to 9th level spells are potentially available, but would be considered "epic level" magic, as 7th level would be available only by 19th or 20th level, and 9th not before 30.

[nedz]

If you wanted to allow 4ths, you could run E8 ?

[prufock]

There are some cheesy dips that would disrupt that balance (sand-shaper dip, for example)
In limiting the classes to tier 3 and under, that would include with PrC adjustments, so beguiler and dread necro would not be able to take sand shaper, though warmage would.


Alternatively, a friend of mine and fellow DM runs a game where any class with 9th level spells or equivalents (psionics, mysteries) are allowed 3 levels when they start before being required to multi-class at least once every 3 levels after.
So, Caster 3, Fighter1, Caster 4-5, Fighter2, caster 6-7, fighter 3 and so on.
This is an interesting idea as well. Instead of rewriting classes one by one, this would be its own check against rapid progression. A beguiler/rogue would make sense (and use fractional BAB), as would a Warmage/Warblade or Dread Necro/Barbarian for example.

[Fable Wright]

To do something similar with the other full casters, for example, Beguiler could be made a little more rogue-like: give it 3/4 BAB and a (slower) sneak attack progression to make up for the lost spell progression. It already has a good skill list and points to spend. Dread Necro already has some decent combat options with its touch attacks, DR, and negative energy burst. Maybe bringing it up to a 3/4 BAB also would be OK. Warmage... again, maybe 3/4 BAB and a few fighter bonus feats.

E6 may make these changes unnecessary. If I go E6 I will likely still eliminate tier 1 and 2 classes as PC options, saving them for NPC villains. E6 would also mean less reinventing the wheel.

So... what I'm seeing out of this is rebuilding the Spellthief and Duskblade classes from scratch, and some sort of combination for Dread Necromancer.

If you're going to include classes that rely on magic to work (which, to be perfectly honest, Warmage, Duskblade, DN, and Beguiler are), I think staggering the progression would be the best way to help the issue. This would apply to Bards, as well; they are rather dependant on their spells. But honestly, that is a great way to resolve the issue, and makes it so that half-casting remains powerful. Duskblades would work against the low magic feel, but given the restricted nature of the spell list, it would probably be fine without the multiclassing restriction. Though, if that restriction were imposed on Duskblades, Full Attack Channeling actually would become a capstone feature...

[Absol197]

I'm currently in the process of developing my own low-magic setting, and so I'll add my tweaks into the pile:

Change #1:
First, I added two new stats to every class: a Base Defense Bonus, and a Base Magic Bonus. Base Defense mirrors Base Attack, but instead of 1/2, 3/4, 1/1, it grows at 1/3, 1/2, 2/3. It functions as effectively a Dodge bonus, meaning it's lost when you're flat-footed.

Base Magic bonus is the inverse of Base Attack: 1/2 BAB gets 1/1 BMB; 3/4 BAB gets 3/4 BMB; and 1/1 BAB gets 1/2 BMB. Your BMB becomes effectively your caster level for spells. Clerics and druids drop down to using the 1/2 BAB.
Change #2:
The second change is to casting abilities. There are three kinds of casting stats: Spells Known (how many spells you know, obviously), Spells per Day (as normal), and Spell Power (your save DCs, and casting rolls; see below). The type of magic you use (arcane/divine) determines your spells per day and spell power ability, while your style of magic (prepared/spontaneous) determines your spells known ability.

{table=head]Caster Type|Spells Known|Spells per Day|Spell Power
Arcane/Prepared|Int|Con|Cha
Arcane/spontaneous|Wis|Con|Cha
Divine/Prepared|Int|Cha|Wis
Divine/Spontaneous|Wis|Cha|Wis[/table]
Change #3:
The third big change was to casting itself. You have to roll a casting check in order to cast a spell, and failure can have consequences. failure by less than 5 does nothing except lose the spell. A failure by 5-9 means you roll on the wild magic table to see what happens. A failure by 10 or more means you roll on the Rod of Wonder chart.
Change #4:
The fourth change is to how magic items work. Not only are they much rarer, but you have to invest yourself into them in order to gain their effects. Magic items worn in your body slots no longer take up "body slots." You can wear and benefit from as many magic rings you want, for example, with a restriction - each magic item requires that you invest some of your BMB into the item to make it function, equal to 1/3 the item's caster level (round up, for once). This requires a ritual be performed. Performing it requires 1 hour per point invested, and a Spellcraft check with a DC equal to 10 + the item's caster level. Other people can perform this ritual for you. This means that your ability to roll for casting spells goes down the more magic items you carry.

Weapons and armor work a bit differently, in that you can benefit from the enhancement bonus just by picking up/wearing the item, but any additional effects you need to do the ritual for.

The other exception is with potions and scrolls. Because they only work once, you can use them normally without imvesting in them.

And now you're saying, "But wait, this doesn't actually address some of the big issues! This isn't really low magic!" That's why I've saves the biggest change for last.

Change #5:
All classes that cast spells are no longer base classes. Paladins and Rangers use a spell-less variant. The casting classes become prestige classes, and are limited to 10 levels. They all have similar prerequisites: BMB +3, Spellcraft 5 ranks (8 if you're playing 3.5), an additional knowledge skill (or perform for bards) that makes sense for their class (arcana for wizards, religion for clerics, nature for druids; sorcerers are unique, in that they don't have a similar requirement). This limits the world to 5th-level spells, which don't become available until at least 14th level.

The final change is that, for those who want to play a caster from the get-go, there are two feats, Student of the Arcane and Disciple of the Divine, which grant a small measure of casting ability without the classes. You gain a number of 1st-level spells known from the cleric or sorcerer/wizard list equal to your spells known ability score (you choose prepared or arcane), which you can cast a number of per day equal to your spells per day ability score. These feats are also preprequisites for casting classes.

Of course, along with these, there's the standard of removing monsters with massive SLA lists, and effects that are very overtly magical in nature. So, that's my general fix. Hopefully some of my ideas help!


~Phoenix~